DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

  Quote

Be nice to Jerry Thomas, he knows virtually everything H knows and is very familiar with the area. At the moment I think he is the best new source of info.

Got to head out, Snow realign the birds now!

Tom

Tell Jerry that being nice is a two-way street. Tell him to reflect on his behavior/attitude. I'll reflect on mine.

It's all about shared goals. If there are none, then it's a free-for-all, rightly. If there are some, it's not. The only one who's nice for the sake of being nice is 377.

Latest bird is the GeoEye-1. First pic came in Oct, 2008.
Can take photos at a resolution of 41 cm.
They're only letting Google get 50 cm resolution right now, because of government restriction.

But that's just a matter of time. Remember how they scrambled the GPS sigs to reduce resolution? And how multiple telescopes can be used to increase resolution.

300 PHds here working on combining low res images to create higher res.

GeoEye-2 launches 2011-2012 with 25cm resolution.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/geoeye-1-super.html

Regardless of the rumor I am starting now, there is no CIA money involved in either Google or Satellite Imaging Corporation. Duane's niece works at the latter. Robert David Steele is a liar.
http://www.satimagingcorp.com/satellite-sensors/geoeye-2.html

[377 22]

  Quote

Tell Jerry that being nice is a two-way street. Tell him to reflect on his behavior/attitude. I'll reflect on mine.

It's all about shared goals. If there are none, then it's a free-for-all, rightly. If there are some, it's not. The only one who's nice for the sake of being nice is 377.

I am no Ghandi or Mother Theresa, believe me, but being nice does NOT have to be a two way street. Fighting fire with fire just makes things hotter. Cool water works better.

Being nice to someone hostile is not the same as conceding or kissing butt. You are not allowing them to dictate or control the atmosphere of the encounter. It can be seen as a power move rather than a wimp move.

If we react with equal venom to every hostile thing said here we just spin into an anger vortex. Anger here just impedes progress.

I like the intellectual sparring on this forum.We have some really bright participants and it is fun to see a war of ideas. Good things come from those battles but little good comes from personal insults and cuts.

Ok, enough Rodney King. Back to the main event.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

  Quote

Remember how they scrambled the GPS sigs to reduce resolution?

I got a huge kick out of what the Coast Guard did to give mariners good GPS data back when DOD was dithering the GPS satellite signals to degrade accuracy. The Coasties installed fixed position GPS receivers at old low frequency coastal radiobeacon sites, compared current GPS position to known fixed position of the GPS receiver and transmitted a constantly updated differential correction to ships at sea. The differential correction signals were sent using the old LF beacon transmitters and some updated interface electronics. Worked like a charm and dirt cheap. It is still in operation and improves the accuracy of even undithered GPS for ships and other users. It is called DGPS.

Snow, you seemed to be digging very deep on local radar info from the 1971 era. Find anything more?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

Tell Jerry that being nice is a two-way street. Tell him to reflect on his behavior/attitude. I'll reflect on mine.


Reply> No you won't. You're an imposter. Send
Snowmman back and you take a hike.

[snowmman 3]

377 said:

"Snow, you seemed to be digging very deep on local radar info from the 1971 era. Find anything more?"

I'm not looking any more, because part of me thinks that it's a good example of how we pretend, as a group, to have looked at a lot of stuff, when we really haven't. And we pretend to know stuff we really don't.

That one line in the ARTCC transcript could mean nothing, or give us a little to think about.

I was surprised Sluggo didn't jump on it, minimally asking "does it mean anything".

So: I'm not looking down that way any more.

The questions from the group at Vancouver/Portland now, raising questions about the flight path etc (It's funny how even with the FBI, represented by Himmelsbach, that they are all definitive when they have secret data, but once you start analyzing it, they say "hell we don't know, we didn't really do any work in the past anyhow".)

The thing to remember, is that Tom K is gathering some first hand info, especially from Himmelsbach. We'll have to analyze it for correctness, though. It will have it's own errors, like everything we have.

For instance, it's easy to say "Oh we don't know if the time stamps are correct in the transcripts". That's always been a question: about how synchronized the various sites were on time, and whether there were adjustments the FBI did or not.

In any case: when we get all the claims of fuzziness (new claims) we can process it by comparing events in the transcripts and looking for discrepancies in time.

So: like always, we can't just assume because people start saying dramatic stuff, now, for some reason, that it's more true or less true.

Just more wood in the fire. Good stuff, but keep it all in perspective.

I'm really interested in the Himmelsbach angle. He's a storyteller. Be good to get more data out of him. He may be a big mythmaker. Don't know.

[georger 268]

ATTENTION TOM KAYE

Safecrack, I will add something to that statement. Money does float and what it is encased in and the turbulence of the water also makes a huge difference.

If the container came down the Washougal it would have been torn to shreds by the time it hit the Columbia - you have to consider the time it would have hit the Washougal - Winter. The spring snow melts cause the Washougal to run hard and rapid and that is not accounting for the rain.

If the container came down the Washougal the condition of the money deposited on Tina's bar would have been - no packets and no rubber bands.

Reply> You cant make a wholesale statement like
that. And are you talking about above or below
Dougan Falls? They used to float logs down the Washougal ... smooth ride to the Columbia. Details,
Jo. It's always in the details. Sweeping statements
dont work in this case.


There are only 3 ways the money got into the Columbia.
1. Cooper landed in the Columbia
2. Someone threw the money into the Columbia...at a later date.
3. All or part of the money was separated from Cooper when he jumped.

Of Course ALL of you know I choose number 2.

4. The money never came through the Columbia.
5. The money came via the Willamette-Columbia.
6. The money came via the western divide and through the Lewis complex ...
7. The money came via RR tracks to the Vancouver Lake area then to Tina Bar.
8. ...............
9. ................
10. ..................
11. ...................
12. 13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19. 20.

[377 22]

We have these really good suspects like Mayfield and McCoy who are ruled out primarily if not exclusively by alibis that the FBI investigated and believed.

Snow, Sluggo, Georger, all: is it possible that McCoy's alibi was fake? Mayfield's? Just how solid were they? What would it have taken to make fake ones that the FBI would buy as true?

Neither suspects were a perfect match to the sketches or witness descriptions but they were close enough.

Ralph H knew a lot about Mayfield. He is reported to be sure it was not Mayfield. Based on alibi alone or something more? Didnt Mayfield call in contemporaneously with Norjack and say "it isnt me"? That is a bit weird.

I may have my facts wrong, but McCoy seemed like such a great fit but for the alibi.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

I'm really interested in the Himmelsbach angle. He's a storyteller. Be good to get more data out of him. He may be a big mythmaker. Don't know.

[georger 268]

I may have my facts wrong, but McCoy seemed like such a great fit but for the alibi.

377

Duane thought so, but McCoy didnt fit the
physical description and with all his blood on the floor
the dna comparison was easy!

How many quarts does it take!

[377 22]

Georger,

You are right, there are many credible alternative money transport explanations in addition to the three Jo put forth, but give her some credit for her new approach which explicitly acknowledges possibilities other than Duane's paper bag toss.

Her dogmatism is decreasing, even if only slightly.

Tom, you have hinted several times that many assumptions about the case are wrong. I wish you'd tell us what you think they are. I have this nagging suspicion that the money had some human help in getting to where it was found and that the river currents don't tell the whole story. Am I totally off base?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

  Quote

I may have my facts wrong, but McCoy seemed like such a great fit but for the alibi.

377

Duane thought so, but McCoy didnt fit the
physical description and with all his blood on the floor
the dna comparison was easy!

How many quarts does it take!

That assumes that the FBI has Cooper's DNA. How can you be sure that they really do? If Cooper were really clever he could leave stuff that had other people's DNA on it. I wonder if your DNA could be extracted from your ties? Seems like a a tie, with no skin or hair contact, might not have the wearers DNA on it.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

I’m afraid I’m going to have to agree with georger. “Who are you and what have you done with the real snowmman?"

The communication between you and me is very poor. For instance;

  Quote

“That one line in the ARTCC transcript could mean nothing, or give us a little to think about. I was surprised Sluggo didn't jump on it, minimally asking "does it mean anything".
So: I'm not looking down that way any more.”

I don’t know if it’s a language barrier i.e. my redneck; “Let’s poke it with a stick!” vs. your Northern California declarative interrogatives; “We’re going to Tena Bar?”

But, I just don’t understand what you are talking about half of the time. And, when you go off on one of your fantasy tangents, you lose me altogether.

Come on… show us the old snowmman. I’ll let you in my secret DBC Club. {You’ll still have to learn the secret knock and secret handshake though.}

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

  Quote

why the new avatar? what am I missing"

It’s just a photo of a friend acquaintance that I used to enjoy talking with. He is was a real smart guy and I enjoy enjoyed having friendly arguments and discussions.

Then one day, something went wrong in his life and he turned abrasive, cynical, and sometimes cruel. I really don’t know what it was. Whatever it was, I wish it hadn’t happened. Now, I just feel sorry for him.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Don't let Jerry snow you - he called me a liar about the places I went and then I found these places with the help of the locals. He acted like he was interrogating some one in a war senario. The most unpleasant conversation of my life.

He refuses to acknowledge the places I went and that the developement in the area has taken over - what was farm and forest is now developement after developement. He claimed the places did not exist ever - and I had 4 witness (one is deceased).
One was doing a favor for his Aunt by acting as our guide - this man was trained to know when someone was lieing...check you PM's.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

  Quote

this man was trained to know when someone was lieing.

And what kind of training is that may I ask? I want to take the course.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

We'll have to wait for Tom to give us more on just what H. said, but from the little snippets Tom posted:

1) Did Himmelsbach really never talk to Rataczak until way,way after he retired? (one or both of them)

2) Ckret has told us there are Rataczak interviews where Bill talks about how they were before the Columbia (unclear how Bill knew) when they felt the bump, and how they could see the suburbs of Portland (or whatever it was he said) when they felt the bump.

So there must be some kind of critical "bump" related interview of Rataczak. That Ckret is quoting. But we don't know by who. We don't know when it was done.

Was it done before the drop test? Would they have zeroed in on "bump" details before the drop test? Maybe. Did they go back and interview Rataczak again after the drop test? Or just rely on Anderson's interpretation of "sameness" and maybe consult the transcripts for "oscillations" or maybe not read the Rat interview about "bump".

I had speculated before that the people who created the original DZ map just didn't have all the data (interviews etc). Ckret has speculated that it was more about misinterpretations of data.

Without seeing more background on this Rat/Bump interview info, even that might be of unknown provenance?

Mainly because even Himmelsbach seems to be stepping away from talking to Rataczak.

If Himmelsbach was not "all over" Rataczak and the bump issue, you'd think all of his personal theorization about DZ is fairly weak.

What am I missing?

Himmelsbach and Jerry seem closely aligned from what we know so far. I'm very curious about why Tom seems to think Jerry has new info. It would be very good if he did.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"And to think the Great Snowbird MISSED the Tacoma
angle altogether! Shame. "

I did. I'll admit it.
What's the Tacoma Angle?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

  Quote

Rolling Fork is a water trough compared to the Washougal. There are only 3 ways the money got into the Columbia.
1. Cooper landed in the Columbia
2. Someone threw the money into the Columbia...at a later date.
3. All or part of the money was separated from Cooper when he jumped.

Hate to be the party pooper again, but this is patently false. #1 & #3 are impossible; they do not explain the money unless you add in some "conspiracy" type thinking (ie, more than one person handling the Cooper ransom or a literal army of people monitoring the flight all got it wrong)

You also ommitted a viable explanation, which is that Cooper himself placed the money somewhere in the Washougal watershed.

I want to remind people that if you're thinking about the Washougal, it's quite a leap of faith. He did not land there, so he would have had to hike. It's possible, but I don't think it would be likely that he'd survive then hike up some mountains to hide the money... but whatever.

Right now, the only Cooper I care about is Marquis. I knew him, and my heart goes out to him, his wife, his daughter, his family, and all of his friends. He was always nice to me and was quite a remarkable person. I hope we can all get some closure, but I'm also realistic...

[georger 268]

  Quote

Georger,

You are right, there are many credible alternative money transport explanations in addition to the three Jo put forth, but give her some credit for her new approach which explicitly acknowledges possibilities other than Duane's paper bag toss.

Her dogmatism is decreasing, even if only slightly.


377

I distinguish between apparent and actual. Given
the long history of symptoms we cannot assume
anything ... moreover the usual prognosis is what
it is.

[377 22]

Wow PLF, I didn't know you lost a friend.

The survivor's story about the other two taking off their life jackets and drifting/swimming away is bizzare. He must be very stressed and who knows how it affected his perception and memory. Hypothermia and hallucinations go hand in hand.

If only they had carried an EPIRB distress beacon. Hard to understand how anyone would go so far offshore in a small craft without one.

My condolences go out to you and to all concerned.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 268]

  Quote

  Quote

I may have my facts wrong, but McCoy seemed like such a great fit but for the alibi.

377

Duane thought so, but McCoy didnt fit the
physical description and with all his blood on the floor
the dna comparison was easy!

How many quarts does it take!

That assumes that the FBI has Cooper's DNA. How can you be sure that they really do? If Cooper were really clever he could leave stuff that had other people's DNA on it. I wonder if your DNA could be extracted from your ties? Seems like a a tie, with no skin or hair contact, might not have the wearers DNA on it.

377

Cooper was not "clever". He hijacked and aeroplane,
for God's sake. He did not oxygenate the hemoglobin
molecule and get a Nobel Prize while trading in rare
metals!

This guy starts ringing bells at the moron scale.
The only question is how smart a dummy he was.

Duane by contrast was smart enough to stay home,
play with a wife, and conduct simple scams under the cover of facial hair .... and a delusional ego.

My grandfather used to have an IQ test: "You hitch
a mule to a goat to a pig to a chicken. Which would
you ride to town." You would be surprised how many
pick the chicken thinking its a trick question. Snowmman would!

[georger 268]

  Quote

georger,

  Quote

why the new avatar? what am I missing"

It’s just a photo of a friend acquaintance that I used to enjoy talking with. He is was a real smart guy and I enjoy enjoyed having friendly arguments and discussions.

Then one day, something went wrong in his life and he turned abrasive, cynical, and sometimes cruel. I really don’t know what it was. Whatever it was, I wish it hadn’t happened. Now, I just feel sorry for him.

Sluggo_Monster

We dont need this kind of thing here. Jo will think
he's an FBI agent! (talk to you soon. I havent forgotten)

[georger 268]

  Quote

Don't let Jerry snow you - he called me a liar about the places I went and then I found these places with the help of the locals. He acted like he was interrogating some one in a war senario. The most unpleasant conversation of my life.

He refuses to acknowledge the places I went and that the developement in the area has taken over - what was farm and forest is now developement after developement. He claimed the places did not exist ever - and I had 4 witness (one is deceased).
One was doing a favor for his Aunt by acting as our guide - this man was trained to know when someone was lieing [{lying} ] ...check you PM's.

Jo. Jo! Reality check! How many tits on the average
Holstein at Fazio's?

[snowmman 3]

SafecrackingPLF said
"Hate to be the party pooper again, but this is patently false. #1 & #3 are impossible"

Hey safe, are you saying #1 is impossible based on the Rataczak interviews or ???

could you outline the case for #1 being impossible.
(it may seem obvious to you and you might think it should be to me, but I've learned that I can never tell the train of thought people are following)

Seriously, just summarize your thoughts on #1 being impossible
(landing in Columbia)

(edit) good thoughts go out to Marquis and the others.

[georger 268]

  Quote

We'll have to wait for Tom to give us more on just what H. said, but from the little snippets Tom posted:

1) Did Himmelsbach really never talk to Rataczak until way,way after he retired? (one or both of them)

2) Ckret has told us there are Rataczak interviews where Bill talks about how they were before the Columbia (unclear how Bill knew) when they felt the bump, and how they could see the suburbs of Portland (or whatever it was he said) when they felt the bump.

So there must be some kind of critical "bump" related interview of Rataczak. That Ckret is quoting. But we don't know by who. We don't know when it was done.

Was it done before the drop test? Would they have zeroed in on "bump" details before the drop test? Maybe. Did they go back and interview Rataczak again after the drop test? Or just rely on Anderson's interpretation of "sameness" and maybe consult the transcripts for "oscillations" or maybe not read the Rat interview about "bump".

I had speculated before that the people who created the original DZ map just didn't have all the data (interviews etc). Ckret has speculated that it was more about misinterpretations of data.

Without seeing more background on this Rat/Bump interview info, even that might be of unknown provenance?

Mainly because even Himmelsbach seems to be stepping away from talking to Rataczak.

If Himmelsbach was not "all over" Rataczak and the bump issue, you'd think all of his personal theorization about DZ is fairly weak.

What am I missing?

Himmelsbach and Jerry seem closely aligned from what we know so far. I'm very curious about why Tom seems to think Jerry has new info. It would be very good if he did.

Pressure fluctuation.