DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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SnowMMan hope I spelled your name right this time.I have an Idea. If you could take the information you have and use it to pinpoint a location that you believe cooper landed and display it I will go to that location and search it for you I,ll even take pictures of that location and get it posted on the forum.

You'll note that out of 6000 posts, there are very few where people say "Cooper had to have landed here"

That's because when you look at the information we have all together, it doesn't coalesce into any one place.

And some of the information is murky in terms of correctness.
You mentioned that Ckret was a good FBI agent. I was curious about what that meant. Pleasant to talk too? or ??
It was very unclear what he was, IMHO, on this forum.
I thought he behaved in ways that went to cross purposes with what his apparent goal was. Sometimes it appears he withheld information. Sometimes it appeared he was just another arrogant FBI guy.

If you've met him in person, some feedback might be interesting.

I only mention that as an example of how we have very few documents, very small amounts of information. All subject to interpretation. And little contact with the original players.

Other than that, life is great.

I find that most people involved with this thing act like you do. They like to hold tight to secret information, for no good reason. It's kind of like people think they're part of some play here, and the roles have been laid out from the start, with Himmelsbach showing the lead.

For instance, we have no data that says Himmelsbach did a good investigation. You seem to imply otherwise.

And that's how it goes. All innuendo, nod-nod, wink-wink, nudge-nudge. And then there's guys like Sluggo and Georger who think they're going to science out the answer from the crappy data we have.

The crappy data says the DZ can't be identified.

And we have little info on what got searched, in terms of making guesses on what we might exclude.

Have you done any research on the number of presumed drowned bodies that were never found in the Columbia? If you're a local you might have some more info. I've researched some, along with suicide jumpers from I-5.

Are you familar with the apparent right-hand-outboard-pull mod that was done to the chute Cooper jumped with?

All-in-all, the idea that Cooper no-pulled into the Columbia, or near the shoreline is the only thing I can come up with.

I believe others don't say anything because nothing else makes sense.

For the body to have not been discovered, it would have had to stay in the river. So there's no way you can find it, if so.

I don't think there's any place worth searching, if you assume Cooper is dead.

NOW: if you just assume Cooper survived, then the searching is not necessarily about "stuff" but about people.

That's why it would be nice if you could tell us about what kind of investigative search, if any, Himmelsbach did. Especially around jump clubs of the '60s.

If I sound like I'm feeling you out, it's because I am. Georger liked to talk like you were an expert.
Are you aware of the hijacker who parachuted wearing cowboy boots?
Are you aware of the hijacker who parachuted into the jungle in Honduras?
(give up the names if you do)
How about the one who jumped at night, at higher air speed than Cooper, even though he had to be shown how to put the parachute on.

You're aware they all lived?

Have you watched the video of the static line jump out of the 727 back before Cooper did his jump? (CIA).

[snowmman 3]

We have lots of good satellite images of amazing detail.

However, we had an argument about which of the buildings at the Fazios was the actual residential home.

Do you know?

The relative closeness of it to the money find location is interesting background.

Also: we have guesses as to where the pipeline dredge outputted near Tena Bar in the Summer of '74 and the actual months it was in operation. Do you have more detail on that?

Do you have detail on the names of the pipeline dredges that were used by the Corps of Engineers in the summer of '74 by Tena Bar?

We also have questions about additional bits of money found at the Ingram dig site.

Ckret said there wasn't anything else found. The articles from back then say a bunch of different things but imply small bits of money were found in addition to what the Ingrams found.

Plus: Georger has fed us a cock-and-bull story of unknown origin that might be true, that seems to confirm the claims of the little girl Denise in terms of how the money was really found. If you know Himmelsbach, maybe he talked about what really happened in the couple of days around the money find, and the interactions with all the members of the Ingram family.


That's just off the top of my head right now.

[nigel99 600]

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We only have two items from the plane. The door placard which may have left the plane at a very different time from Cooper's exit and the Tena Bar money which left with Cooper. /reply]

The other point made previously about the door placard is that it is very light and could have blown around for miles.

Just to be controversial/difficult - what is to say that Cooper didn't throw "some" money out the door because there was to much to carry? In other words the Tina bar money may not have left the plane with Cooper.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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[377 22]

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Just to be controversial/difficult - what is to say that Cooper didn't throw "some" money out the door because there was to much to carry? In other words the Tina bar money may not have left the plane with Cooper.

Definitely possible, but so against human nature as to be unlikely. People "throw money away" in gambling, bad investments, unwise marriages, etc but who among us has ever seen or even heard of someone literally throwing away a large sum of money other than perhaps a robber with cops in hot pursuit?

Cooper wanted to "tip" Tina with some loot, (she declined) so if there was more cash than he could carry I think he'd have left it in the plane with the hope that Tina might be able to somehow get it rather than tossing it out the door.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[nigel99 600]

I remember this article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1023462/Pictured-The-day-rained-money-6-000-thrown-plane-Indonesias-poorest.html

However as shown in the picture - I doubt it would have stayed bundled from a jet!

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[377 22]

I have only made a single jet jump (in 2006 not 1971) but I think a tightly banded bunch of twenties would stay together if tossed from a jet at speeds under 200 knots.

Light (or more precisely: high surface area to weight ratio) objects attached to heavier objects tended to get separated (e.g, goggles and other attached objects were stripped off of some people exiting the jet) but I think money tightly bound together would not be subjected to the same differential forces.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Jerry,

What do you think about Gossett as a Cooper suspect?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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I remember this article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1023462/Pictured-The-day-rained-money-6-000-thrown-plane-Indonesias-poorest.html

However as shown in the picture - I doubt it would have stayed bundled from a jet!

Now there is an economic "bailout" I can support. Beats handing billions of taxpayer money to Merrill Lynch, Citicorp and B of A and trusting them to act honorably.

What is that cool looking airplane dropping the money?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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Just to be controversial/difficult - what is to say that Cooper didn't throw "some" money out the door because there was to much to carry? In other words the Tina bar money may not have left the plane with Cooper.

Definitely possible, but so against human nature as to be unlikely. People "throw money away" in gambling, bad investments, unwise marriages, etc but who among us has ever seen or even heard of someone literally throwing away a large sum of money other than perhaps a robber with cops in hot pursuit?

Cooper wanted to "tip" Tina with some loot, (she declined) so if there was more cash than he could carry I think he'd have left it in the plane with the hope that Tina might be able to somehow get it rather than tossing it out the door.

377

i agree with 377's take on this, including re Tina (in fact I was about to type pretty much the same answer!). However, there is always the possibility that some of the money was accidentally lost on exit, or before exit, or during the jump... any of which could have resulted in it landing somwhere different to Cooper.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

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Geoger this forum is going to take me awhile to get use too I seem to answer questions out of context. given time I learn and do beter.

No problem. You are a breath of fresh air.

[georger 264]

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"" The stairs immediately reacted by becomming abrubtly closed and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears. So I quickly got onto the air traffic control center and said, 'I think our friend just took leave of us.'" (PLF's quote of Wm Rataczak)


I don't know where this quote text came from, but responding to it:

During the flight, Rat couldn't see the stairs.

Any stair behavior was only realized after the air drop test.

If Rataczak knew in 1971 that the pressure bump was the jump, then why was the jump predicted at 8:11-8:12 if we now have testimony, from 1971, from Rat saying the bump was as they approached Portland? (which was around 8:16-8:18 depending on what you prefer to measure)

Also: why does the Taylor article quote Rat saying the bump thing but at 8:12?

Rat may have said something we don't know about yet.

But there's nothing that makes sense, that is verifiable, that says Rat said anything about where Cooper jumped.

How many people were in Ford's theatre at the moment Lincoln was shot? Nobody knows. Nobody
made an instantaneous count or had the ability
to do so -

In the Cooper case, everyone forgot to include you
as an observer. That was a major screwup. Maybe
you werent born yet. Then your mother screwed up!

You give polemic. You get polemic.

You know the variables. We have an "outline"
(as Labrys said. Labrys is correct in a profound sense)

We have "oscillations" and supposedly a "bump"
(cabin pressure fluctuation) as two distinct events. We assume the bump relates to the jump point.
In a general sense Rat thought so and spoke accordingly. (The whole cabin crew thought so,
which YOU will debate as having no evidence to
support).

I cannot speak to the level of certainty" in Rat's
mind about this issue. I dont have the historical
record or transcripts of the testimony to parse and
examine, and you dont either. It is easy for you
to raise objections to an issue fuzzy in the first place.

We both know oscillations are mentioned in the
transcript - "bump" is not. We have tried to resolve
if the two are the same or seperate. A "bump" was
reproduced in the tests but oscillations were not
reproduced, if I recall correctly. Obviously something
was different or there was no distinction to begin with.

If something was different and oscillations and
pressure fluctuate are two distinct events then perhaps it was something Cooper did that the
test failed to duplicate in the same way.

There is a person who has a theory about that.
That person is not here. The person Im thinking
of believes the oscillations and pressure bump were
different symptoms in time of a single event.

You might want to explore that line of thought,
if you understand it?

[georger 264]

Plus: Georger has fed us a cock-and-bull story of unknown origin that might be true, that seems to confirm the claims of the little girl Denise in terms of how the money was really found. If you know Himmelsbach, maybe he talked about what really happened in the couple of days around the money find, and the interactions with all the members of the Ingram family.

Reply> Fed us? You are "feeding" right now.

"Cock and bull"? I posted it as "what if" and I
explained the basis for my post. You may chose not to believe it, or investigate it, but that is your choice
based on your emotional response which I have no
control over.

The subject will come up again... just as while
calling it "cock and bull" you went forward and made
your own contributions to the "cock and bull"?

In retrospect it might have been better had I said
nothing. Half of the reason I posted that material
was because the forum was sagging and seemed
to me in need of perking up. I am sorry your
reaction was so strongly negative. Sometimes
Snowmman's personal interests are not enough
to keep a forum going, on only Snowmman posts.

There isn't a single model to success Snowmman.

[georger 264]

Plus: Georger has fed us a cock-and-bull story of unknown origin that might be true, that seems to confirm the claims of the little girl Denise in terms of how the money was really found. If you know Himmelsbach, maybe he talked about what really happened in the couple of days around the money find, and the interactions with all the members of the Ingram family.

Reply> I might also add you were grateful for it
at the time, before second guessing yourself right
off the planet.

It taught me:

(1) Snowmman and Jo and one and the same.
(2) You cant do Snowmman any favours!
(3) Snowmman's prolific SEARCHING SKILLS ARE
ACTUALLY LIMITED! Snowmman is a joke. I know
people who could SEARCH circles around you on
a routine basis and they work for minimum wage!
(4) Dont trust Snowmman.

That about covers it.

[snowmman 3]

"In the Cooper case, everyone forgot to include you
as an observer. That was a major screwup. Maybe
you werent born yet. Then your mother screwed up! "

Now we're making progress. I want to see if I can get you more obsessed with me than Jo.

What do you need to accomplish that?

I'm wearing womens panties right now. Does that help?

[georger 264]

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We only have two items from the plane. The door placard which may have left the plane at a very different time from Cooper's exit and the Tena Bar money which left with Cooper. /reply]

The other point made previously about the door placard is that it is very light and could have blown around for miles.

Just to be controversial/difficult - what is to say that Cooper didn't throw "some" money out the door because there was to much to carry? In other words the Tina bar money may not have left the plane with Cooper.

Thats an option except many people believe the
whole hijacking was about money. Tina's report
about Cooper's giddy reaction when seeing the
money, a strong sense the money was important
to him and a motivator .... maybe he changed his
mind faced with the actual jump and threw some
out to lighten the load as the reality of his circumstances began to soak in ....? He did offer
money to Tina (maybe twice), maybe to Schafner
also ???

But Snow will say I have no evidence for this.
I dont. Its pure speculation.

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[snowmman 3]

" I know
people who could SEARCH circles around you on
a routine basis and they work for minimum wage!"

I would put it on a bumper sticker and try to sell it on ebay, but I can't imagine anyone else would think of that as a reasonable brag?

I'll try though.

Nice brag though. Hard to imagine someone yelling it in a bar fight.

[georger 264]

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I remember this article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1023462/Pictured-The-day-rained-money-6-000-thrown-plane-Indonesias-poorest.html

However as shown in the picture - I doubt it would have stayed bundled from a jet!

if the way he tied it to himself didnt do actual damage to his body... and cut him in half?

[JerryThomas 0]

In reference to the owners house, the building closest to the gate and RR tracks with the barn next to it was where they lived.Most of the locals called the owner by a nick name (Frenchman) the gate had a small can on it that people would put money in, to gain access to the bar.I have a friend by the name of Brian Allen that new the owner very well and camped on the bar alot. He used to help the owner clean up the trash that people use to leave there.

[snowmman 3]

"then perhaps it was something Cooper did that the
test failed to duplicate in the same way."


georger,
Do you think the flaps were at 30 degrees or 15 degrees when Cooper jumped.

Explain why.
"Don't know" is a reasonable answer.

What were the flaps at for the test.
I'm just wondering.

I've not seen the test report. So when they say they duplicated, I don't know what means. It means they'd have to guess at some point in time in the flight?

What about winds aloft? what were they on the test.

I'm not saying any of this matters.

I just don't know what "duplicate" meant to those doing the test.

I love that you read my posts. Who's the idiot. the writer, or the person reading the writer's words? Right now, I am inside your brain. Isn't that funny?

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman you sure have a lot of question so it is only fair that you answer mine. What is your real name? What do you do for a living.You complain about people keeping secrets and yet your the bigest offender of all. I would feel easier about answer some of your other questions if you answer mine.

[snowmman 3]

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In reference to the owners house, the building closest to the gate and RR tracks with the barn next to it was where they lived.Most of the locals called the owner by a nick name (Frenchman) the gate had a small can on it that people would put money in, to gain access to the bar.I have a friend by the name of Brian Allen that new the owner very well and camped on the bar alot. He used to help the owner clean up the trash that people use to leave there.

Hi Jerry,
Thanks. But why the cloak and dagger on the owner's name?
Are we talking about Jack Fazio? Died September 3, 2007, age 72.
Or are we talking about someone else?

Thanks for confirming the can. We had gotten that from somewhere else, and I jokingly made a theory that Cooper's fingerprints were on one of the coins in the can.

RR tracks next to the barn? Are we talking about the same place?
The RR tracks aren't that close to Tena Bar there.

There are many metal roofed buildings. There is one building that appears to have normal composition shingles. Did their home have composition shingles?

In the pictures, I'm assuming the house they lived in, is within 700 ft of the money find location (I forget the exact number).
Does that sound right?

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman you sure have a lot of question so it is only fair that you answer mine. What is your real name? What do you do for a living.You complain about people keeping secrets and yet your the bigest offender of all. I would feel easier about answer some of your other questions if you answer mine.

Believe anything you want.
I used to work in the Salt Pit. They're closing it down now, so am looking for new work.
Ckret wouldn't visit when he was in Iraq. Said we didn't have good water.

[JerryThomas 0]

Gosset good question, easy answer.The fact that we even no his name eliminate's him as a suspect The man that pulled this off never survived and his name is still uknown.The FBI has checked backgrounds on thousands of suspects.If they have a name they investigate it and they leave no stone unturned.

[snowmman 3]

Jerry,
Did Himmelsbach buy a Beech C35 in 1973 (fork tail)?

I'm curious.

As I've said, I'm wondering about H. as a pilot.
He was a fighter pilot right. So he should be pretty skilled.

Gets me all confused about how he resolves this radar issue in his mind.

Hey! You can tell Himmelsbach that a strange guy is asking questions about everything he did with respect to the Cooper case. Maybe you could get him to post to this forum!

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman Ralph is aware of this forum I don't know if he will ever post on it.Not sure if he would answer any questions either.However he does have a airplane and still flys. He has jumped and does follow the progress on this case. So what is your real name.