DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

orange1 said:

"But there are new angles being thrown up and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss them."

agreed.
I'm trying to discuss them but there's no information from the other side!

Georger says just wait and give someone a chance.

Like with the dream team, or the facial recognition or whatever the next bogus thought was. :)

Hey Orange1, you argued for brutal feedback on intellectual proposals not too long ago.

This is what it looks like!

[377 22]

Quote

Hey Orange1, you argued for brutal feedback on intellectual proposals not too long ago.

This is what it looks like!

Indeed it does Snow.

The search for truth isn't nicey nice. Tempers will flare and it will be tempting to clash on a personal level. Still, we can attack the ideas rather than the person expressing them and not lose any efficiency. G's statements about where people put combs is not advancing anything nor are Jo's gratuitous nasty jabs at G after G was finally being civil to her.

I am not Quade, but I know how he eventually loses patience with personal insults in the forum and bans people. Let's keep everyone here and the formula is soooo simple: suppress the insults, just hold em. OK?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

The Island was searched

[JerryThomas 0]

To expect to find large pieces of bone would be great . However if you look for something small and find it, then you know you haven't overlooked the obvious.#2 no special powers needed and a compass is not always needed.A lot of experience and training is though.

[JerryThomas 0]

The Money: It is my belief that the bag poped open when he landed and the money was loose some still bound by rubber bands.There was a big rain storm shortly after his jump Which flooded the intire area.and it is believed that the money was washed down from where it landed by way of one of the washuogal tributaries then came to rest on tinas bar this is where the money remained and deterated maybe it moved some maybe not.This will never be known for sure. When there is a heavy rain in these area's small drainage streams pop up and the creeks take new direction of flow.Snow melt is also a large factor in moving objects from place to place. you guessed it this is not Shelly my comments will be very short in most cases and direct. Snowman your are on my "A" List

[JerryThomas 0]

Hi Jo its me, its me, Jerry it is time you stop this or would you rathe i help you.

[georger 264]

Quote

orange1 said:

"But there are new angles being thrown up and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss them."

agreed.
I'm trying to discuss them but there's no information from the other side!

Georger says just wait and give someone a chance.

Like with the dream team, or the facial recognition or whatever the next bogus thought was. :)

Hey Orange1, you argued for brutal feedback on intellectual proposals not too long ago.

This is what it looks like!

"[snowmman] Dougan Falls: means you don't fly over Portland"

Reply: where is this coming from? Nobody has said the FP went "over" Dougan Falls.

Can't you understand the man has searched a
number of areas, a number of scenarios, and one
lead is the hydrologist's report.

That is all there is to this.

You are always free to solve it on your own.

Put your hiking boots on!

I think we all know what the answer to that is.
Computers and bright ideas cannot solve everything.

Maybe a walk and some fresh air would help?

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger give me a call I will be able to answer all your questions and save you alot of research time Jerry

[377 22]

We only have two items from the plane. The door placard which may have left the plane at a very different time from Cooper's exit and the Tena Bar money which left with Cooper. If we can rule out human transport to Tena bar, then water flow tells the story.

My guess is that Jerry is working on this backplot theory and is exploring areas from which some bundled money could have washed down and ended up at Tena Bar.

I keep wondering what Cooper did with the main canopy. Obviously if he went in with no pull, it is still packed up and lying somewhere with his remains waiting to be found. If he landed alive under an open canopy, I wonder if he buried it or just stashed it so it wouldn't be easily found by aerial search. In either case there is likely something to be found if one looks in the right place.

Good luck Jerry. It is a needle in a haystack, but sometimes those needles do get found.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[JerryThomas 0]

377 Bingo Ive tried a lot of other techniques To include the common sense ones and computer simulation for the drop zone.Diatom testing of the algea from the streams is the way i believe the case will be solved but untill I can a lab that will do that I will continue to search the stream banks.

[snowmman 3]

I never understand this idea that information can be exchanged over the phone more efficiently.

My experience is that the information is of poorer form on the phone, and since there typically isn't a transcript, it can't be reviewed, so people have memories of it being stronger information than it really is.

Jo has this phone thing too.

Never understood it.

I always figured you only need a phone when you want to form a conspiracy of some sort.

I'll say it again. Dougan Falls means 305 didn't go over PDX.

305 had to be within 6, maybe 8, at the most miles of where Cooper landed. If 305 went over there the radar is wrong. Yet the transcripts show PDX giving altimeter adjustment info to 305 in about the right place relative to the flight path/timeline.
If 305 was in the wrong place at that time, why no mention of it by PDX ATC.

If Himmelsbach has gone around saying 305 was somewhere other than where the radar says, he's saying the radar is wrong. If Himmelsbach is saying the radar is wrong that's interesting.
Amazing amount of hearsay about what Himmelsbach has said. Does he really know anything? Ckret's posts seem to say there's not much more secret info. Why would we care what Himmelsbach thinks? Or some secret dam hydrologist of unknown name.

But you're right georger, I feel better with some air. Dennis Hopper shared his oxygen mask. ....I'm humming "she wore bluueee....velvet..."

Now I'm thinking "if georger did buy a snowblower, would he have sent in the warranty card in the mail? Could I track it that way?"

[snowmman 3]

Quote

computer simulation for the drop zone.

What's a computer simulation of the drop zone look like? Can you share it? I can understand if the answer is no.

There are a lot of pilots and skydivers here. I'm sure you could get a good feedback on your simulation, in terms of accuracy.

[georger 264]

Rat said Cooper bailed somewhere between 5-10
minutes after their last contact woith him at 8:05,
and he could see the nothern suburbs of Portland
coming up, and they had not crossed the Columbia yet".

There has been disagreement about what Rat's
vision was from his seat, and what Cooper could
have seen from his seat or standing on the stairs.

The conditions were 3/4 moon, perhaps cloud deck
at 5000ft, windy-rainy, and 305 was flying somewhere along or variably east of V23 as per
the FBI flight map ...

Photo No.1 shows the view from Rataczak's seat.
His forwards vision is restricted, as Sluggo pointed out earlier. His side vision through his side window
is favorable, to his right side extending to approx
70 degrees to his front. His downward vision on his
right side extending forward is quite good, from
10,000 feet.

Photos no.2 & 3 further detail vision from the 727 cockpit.

Rataczack's statement implies Cooper bailed between 8:10 and 8:15. If you look at the FBI
flight path map, photo 3A, you can see that up
to 20:15 Rataczack has a good right window view
to the ground of Portland-Vancouver coming up,
because 305 has not made its turn yet beginning
at 20:15. After 20:15 Rat's view ahead is more
limited but not fully restricted. So, Rataczack's
statement is consistent with the flight path map in
terms of the angle of the plane and Rat's ability view PDX-VCR approaching out his right side window.

In the back, Cooper would have had a more restricted forward view due to his smaller window
but his view toward Portland until 20:15 is very
much like that Rataczack has, because of the angle of the plane. Cooper would have seen the lights
of PDX-VCR coming up, if the clouds permitted this.

Photos 4-6 show the back stairs extended. Once
again given the angle of the plane to 20:15, if
Cooper is standing on the stairs during this period
(20-10-20:15) all Cooper has todo is look to his
left and cloud cover permitting he can see the lights
of Vancouver-Portland in the distance coming up.
Cooper bails during this period, according to Rat.

If 305 is east off V23 it is basically the same scenario with respect to Rataczack's rightside view
toward PDX-VCR, and the same also for Cooper if
he knew where he was, or cared.

There is the issue of cloud cover. One would think
even with cloud cover, VCR and PDX would have
appeared as 'light glow' through the clouds, against a backdrop of black night, with a 3/4 moon somewhere above.

I dont see that there is any restriction to Rataczack's right side vision as it conflicts with his statement.
Rather I see the facts of 727 rightside vision from the copilot's seat as supporting Rat's statement.

The only issues are where and when. But, the
angle of the plane between BTG and the 20:15
are favorable for Rataczack seeing VCR-PDS off
his right side. Likewise for Cooper seeing these
lights if he looked.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

The Island was searched

Thanks.
But:
By who. What year.
The FBI had no manpower for searching.
Who told you this?

[snowmman 3]

Georger, you say things so imprecisely.

"Rat said Cooper bailed somewhere between 5-10
minutes after their last contact woith him at 8:05,
and he could see the nothern suburbs of Portland
coming up, and they had not crossed the Columbia yet"

Rat did not say that. He said stuff like that with respect to when they felt a pressure bump. There is an assumption that what Rat was describing is when Cooper jumped. Yes there's some testing that says it's a reasonable assumption. But you stated something as "Rat said" that he didn't say. (edit) and couldn't have known. It is fact that no one knows when Cooper jumped.

Are you a real scientist or ??


"I am weak, please don't hurt me"
"Nice town. Think I'll take it"

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowman The phone is easier for me I'm not good with computers. I type slow . as for the computer sims it was done by friends of mine a while back and I only used it to pinpoint areas for me to search and yes I did search those area's I will contact them and see if they can post it for you guys .

[snowmman 3]

yeah I can understand the computer thing.
Obviously I touch type, and I can type pretty much as fast as speech, but I know it can be hard. I've seen some people go pretty good with just two fingers though.

Since you've been musing about money.
Have you seen the hi-resolution photos I posted of the Ingram auction bills?

They're kind of mind-blowing.

One of my acid tests for people who have opinions about "the money" and what it's condition implies, is to quiz them on what pictures of the money they've seen.

It's only recently (the last year or so) that good photos of the money have arrived.

So my opinion is that views formed prior to last year, about the money, should be revisited.

Tom Kaye actually has the FBI money, but I'm working a scam with him to give counterfeits back to the FBI so we won't be able to get anything from Tom.

Man, if Tom was a good guy, he would have scanned the FBI bills and posted hi-res photos here.

I did the work to gather up the Ingram auction bills.

How about some heavy lifting by the dream team for a change?

Do we need to buy Tom Kay a scanner? I'll ship him one.

[snowmman 3]

I was musing about this theory Ckret first mentioned, that McCoy was an example of how a "real" jumper would do it.


I just ran into something that makes me wonder if this notion of McCoy's skill level was myth.

I read somewhere that he had only come off static line jumping in Fall of 1971.
I don't know if that's true.
McCoy hijacked April 7, 1972.

I think it might be in The Real McCoy book. I'll know more when I get it. I don't know.

It'll be interesting if McCoy's behavior was an example of how a novice jumper would do it.

[TomKaye 1]

Hi All,

I am still around and read this forum EVERY day. I have not posted because there has been little new data and you all seem to be chewing on each other.

Not much new on our end either actually.

Tom

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowman I have seen the 20 dollar bills up close and personel. Ralph has one that his wife bought for him from the insurance company. Heritage Auction out of Dallas Tx is the company that recently sold some of the 20 dollar bills for Brian. The island was searched by many people me included I searched it in the 80's others mainly fisherman and campers also searched the Island.

[JerryThomas 0]

Tom I would like to talk to you

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Snowman I have seen the 20 dollar bills up close and personel. Ralph has one that his wife bought for him from the insurance company. Heritage Auction out of Dallas Tx is the company that recently sold some of the 20 dollar bills for Brian. The island was searched by many people me included I searched it in the 80's others mainly fisherman and campers also searched the Island.

That's great Jerry. (377 might laugh at this 'story' of how Ralph acquired one of the twenties. Reminds me of carpenters taking a couple 2x4's home from the job :) )

When was the earliest you saw any bills? Not as far back as 1980, I suppose? In the photos from 1980, you can't see any black bills. But now there are black bills. I've always wondered whether they turned color in FBI possession or before they were found.

[snowmman 3]

Since you've apparently talked to Himmelsbach going back to the '80s, you may have information that the current FBI agent on the case doesn't have.

Do you know anything about where the radar was that was used to create the handdrawn flight path (the one with the x tick marks every minute)

Our theory is that it came from the SAGE center at McChord.

Did Himmelsbach ever talk much about the radar?

What did Himmelsbach talk about anyhow? It seemed in newspaper articles he mostly talked about how Cooper was foul mouthed (Ckret says he wasn't) and how he would have impacted the ground at high rates of speed guaranteeing death/injury because of surface wind speeds that he quoted, which were wrong.

Did Himmelsbach ever talk about whether the FBI investigated jumpers from the early '60s or where they got info about jumpers?

My take is that Himmelsbach only followed up phoned-in tips. Is that wrong? Do you know anything about what he did?

Basically, How did Himmelsbach investigate the case? The guys who wrote the McCoy book say he didn't really do much. Is that true or false?

[JerryThomas 0]

It was the 80's and You must understand Ralph was assigned the case from day 1 as for information Ralph has told me Well lets just say that is between Ralph and I.

[JerryThomas 0]

What Ckret says is true Whaty Ckret has told you guys is the truth the man would not lie about things involving this case he is very honest and a excelent FBI agent.