DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

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as we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of.

Note: when 305 landed at Reno the rear stairs were
dragging... CBS coverage noted this and remarked 'sparks from the rear stairs dragging....'

There was something in the transcript where they said the plane wouldn't be able to land with stairs down and then take off again - presumably precisely because of this.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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[snowmman 3]

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here's a report from the NASA event gathering system (online)
It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down)

We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up ..........

REPLY> so, if they can fall down so easily once
'unlocked', how do you get them backup so easily?

Especially if this is a hydraulic system? It must be
a weak hydraulic system?

Sounds like the maint guys just push them back up
(from the outside) , or pull them up (from the inside)?

G.

No there's no manual pushing back up. (short people wouldn't be able to reach anyhow..it's around 7' to the highest skin there at the stair closure, right?)

Didn't anyone look at the vid I posted? You can see the hydraulic lift. (edit) and the external control position, which matches what's described in that manual I posted. Here's the youtube link again (I provided snaps from this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg

you push the button on the outside (or the inside) and the hydraulics lift up. (yes you could ask "why didn't they just lift them themselves, from the inside? Maybe they wanted maint to inspect them since they had dragged?)

Yes it is weird that the hydraulics don't provide any (or not much) back pressure on the drop, but can lift on the raise. The hydraulic arm must extend on the drop, so it can compress on the lift, so there's got to be some friction effects, minimally.

So somehow this extension must occur with little resistance.

Maybe there's just some kind of fast bleed for the hydraulics that allow the drop.

I don't really understand typical hydraulics enough.

If you've operated a hydraulic car engine hoist crane, or a hydraulic car jack, you know you can twist the bleed screw and the hydraulic arm drops pretty quick if there's any load.

So maybe it's just that simple. There's some kind of bleed on the drop.

(edit) or it's bled immediately after it's locked. That sounds more likely?

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[snowmman 3]

If Cooper was just a regular guy who had seen 727 stairs and the hydraulic arm, I would think you'd assume that hydraulics would both raise the stairs (he might have seen the stairs raise), and also lower the stairs. ..i.e. push down.

If you knew the hydraulics DIDN"T push the stairs down, you might be worried about air pressure keeping the stairs closed, no matter what you did.

SO: did Cooper not know that the stair drop was weight only (free fall).

You could intrepret his conversations about the stairs, as not understanding that the hydraulics don't push down.

I guess this is obvious and we've touched on it before a little, but just wanted to focus thoughts on possibly that simple misunderstanding.

We've used words like "deploy" and "extended" on the stairs, but I've now realized we had no common understanding of what those words really meant.

(edit) it's also interesting that there's a question about whether the stairs "lock down" when fully down, differently on 727-100 vs 727-200 model. The manual I posted also says some weird stuff about standing on the stairs and yanking on the rails or something, to fully lock them down.

The "locking" behavior is interesting in understanding whether the stairs serve as a tail stand. I posted a bunch of stuff where sometimes it is used as a tail stand.

But the main thing: the hydraulics seem to turn themselves off automatically? i.e. you can't stop lifting halfway? It you could that would have been a way to get a half-extension. Let it drop all the way before takeoff, then lift halfway. I don't have something that says you can't "just lift halfway"...but I think the info points that way.

[georger 263]

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here's a report from the NASA event gathering system (online)
It's interesting because it confirms the stairs can fall down. There was "wear" here, don't know how much that contributed, or if that was just part of the not-locked thing, and they would always fall down. (From everything we know, it seems like they would always fall down)

We called our maintenance in roc. They came out, put the stairs back up ..........

REPLY> so, if they can fall down so easily once
'unlocked', how do you get them backup so easily?

Especially if this is a hydraulic system? It must be
a weak hydraulic system?

Sounds like the maint guys just push them back up
(from the outside) , or pull them up (from the inside)?

G.

No there's no manual pushing back up. (short people wouldn't be able to reach anyhow..it's around 7' to the highest skin there at the stair closure, right?)

Didn't anyone look at the vid I posted? You can see the hydraulic lift. (edit) and the external control position, which matches what's described in that manual I posted. Here's the youtube link again (I provided snaps from this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg

you push the button on the outside (or the inside) and the hydraulics lift up. (yes you could ask "why didn't they just lift them themselves, from the inside? Maybe they wanted maint to inspect them since they had dragged?)

Yes it is weird that the hydraulics don't provide any (or not much) back pressure on the drop, but can lift on the raise. The hydraulic arm must extend on the drop, so it can compress on the lift, so there's got to be some friction effects, minimally.

So somehow this extension must occur with little resistance.

Maybe there's just some kind of fast bleed for the hydraulics that allow the drop.

I don't really understand typical hydraulics enough.

If you've operated a hydraulic car engine hoist crane, or a hydraulic car jack, you know you can twist the bleed screw and the hydraulic arm drops pretty quick if there's any load.

So maybe it's just that simple. There's some kind of bleed on the drop.

(edit) or it's bled immediately after it's locked. That sounds more likely?

Guessing: If these stairs are free to drop as
described then my guess is these are cable driven stairs, with weak hydraulic pistons on each side to
keep symmetry in dropping and retracting. But it
is cables (motor driven?) that do all the work, not
hydraulics. Once the cable retracts the door locks.
Probably an electric lock which shuts off the cable motor.

Essentially weight lowers the stairs, cales draw
them up, and hydraulic pistons on each side
are in the system to maintain symmetry (side
to side) when dropping or raising the stairs).

The hydraulic pistons must be very weak if wind
pressure can slam the stairs/door back up.

???

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[georger 263]

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If Cooper was just a regular guy who had seen 727 stairs and the hydraulic arm, I would think you'd assume that hydraulics would both raise the stairs (he might have seen the stairs raise), and also lower the stairs. ..i.e. push down.

If you knew the hydraulics DIDN"T push the stairs down, you might be worried about air pressure keeping the stairs closed, no matter what you did.

SO: did Cooper not know that the stair drop was weight only (free fall).

You could intrepret his conversations about the stairs, as not understanding that the hydraulics don't push down.

I guess this is obvious and we've touched on it before a little, but just wanted to focus thoughts on possibly that simple misunderstanding.

We've used words like "deploy" and "extended" on the stairs, but I've now realized we had no common understanding of what those words really meant.

(edit) it's also interesting that there's a question about whether the stairs "lock down" when fully down, differently on 727-100 vs 727-200 model. The manual I posted also says some weird stuff about standing on the stairs and yanking on the rails or something, to fully lock them down.

The "locking" behavior is interesting in understanding whether the stairs serve as a tail stand. I posted a bunch of stuff where sometimes it is used as a tail stand.

But the main thing: the hydraulics seem to turn themselves off automatically? i.e. you can't stop lifting halfway? It you could that would have been a way to get a half-extension. Let it drop all the way before takeoff, then lift halfway. I don't have something that says you can't "just lift halfway"...but I think the info points that way.

If these stairs will drop with no air pressure (dead
fall weight in normal air prerssure), will they drop
with pressure at 160-180 kts? If these stairs do
not lower or retract by hydraulic pistons but by motorised cable, then it may have been air pressure
which gave Cooper trouble getting the stairs out ...
with no weight on them?

Anyone would have had trouble getting them out
that didnt understand the system, if the above is
true. It's interesting there is no technical discussion of these stairs by the flight crew, in advising Tina
to open them out ? All the crew asks is if Tina
should be tied in or not...

[georger 263]

Quote

If Cooper was just a regular guy who had seen 727 stairs and the hydraulic arm, I would think you'd assume that hydraulics would both raise the stairs (he might have seen the stairs raise), and also lower the stairs. ..i.e. push down.

If you knew the hydraulics DIDN"T push the stairs down, you might be worried about air pressure keeping the stairs closed, no matter what you did.

SO: did Cooper not know that the stair drop was weight only (free fall).

You could intrepret his conversations about the stairs, as not understanding that the hydraulics don't push down.

I guess this is obvious and we've touched on it before a little, but just wanted to focus thoughts on possibly that simple misunderstanding.

We've used words like "deploy" and "extended" on the stairs, but I've now realized we had no common understanding of what those words really meant.

(edit) it's also interesting that there's a question about whether the stairs "lock down" when fully down, differently on 727-100 vs 727-200 model. The manual I posted also says some weird stuff about standing on the stairs and yanking on the rails or something, to fully lock them down.

The "locking" behavior is interesting in understanding whether the stairs serve as a tail stand. I posted a bunch of stuff where sometimes it is used as a tail stand.

But the main thing: the hydraulics seem to turn themselves off automatically? i.e. you can't stop lifting halfway? It you could that would have been a way to get a half-extension. Let it drop all the way before takeoff, then lift halfway. I don't have something that says you can't "just lift halfway"...but I think the info points that way.

Im not convinced we know how these stairs worked
on 305. Its obvious from your work there were revisions over time in other 727's, which isnt surprising.

Im not convinced the hydraulic pistons on these
stairs did any work at all other than stabilisation.

[snowmman 3]

georger has mused about cables-only.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff/arff727.pdf
reference page 1 of this.
it's oct 31, 2007 from boeing. It's similar to the netherlands paper.

It shows "airstair hydraulic accumulator" and "airstair hydraulic reservoir" labels on the plane figure.

I can search some more, but I think we already covered the hydraulic detail for the airstair. It's not just a passive damping system like you propose.

[Orange1 0]

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Anyone would have had trouble getting them out that didnt understand the system, if the above is true. It's interesting there is no technical discussion of these stairs by the flight crew, in advising Tina to open them out ? All the crew asks is if Tina should be tied in or not...

Well, they opened the stairs regularly when on the ground so presumably they just assumed same procedure?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 263]

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georger has mused about cables-only.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff/arff727.pdf
reference page 1 of this.
it's oct 31, 2007 from boeing. It's similar to the netherlands paper.

It shows "airstair hydraulic accumulator" and "airstair hydraulic reservoir" labels on the plane figure.

I can search some more, but I think we already covered the hydraulic detail for the airstair. It's not just a passive damping system like you propose.

Someone else is also musing: I found the following
at Yahoo/Questions-Answers.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070408223808AAnwqQw

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
There are 2 control handles for the airstairs on a 727, one under a panel on the lower fuselage right beside the stair forward hinge point, and one at the top of the stairs behind a panel on the left side which can only be accessed when the rear cabin door is open. Because the cabin door can only be opened when the aircraft is unpressurized, this usually would prevent its actuation in flight. However, after the D B Cooper hijacking a device was added referred to as an anti-hijack vane that would swing over when the aircraft was in flight and prevent the door opening. To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an over center position.
· 1 year ago
Source(s): B727 AMM.
Endorsement course for B727

Followup:
They are controlled from the passenger cabin, and a light in the cockpit turns on indicating that the stairs are open. As said, after multiple hijackings, the most famous being D.B. Cooper on Northwest Airlines flight, a Cooper Vane was installed on most 727's to prevent the airstairs to be opened in flight. However, perhaps since airports were beginning to offer jetways connecting directly to the terminal, most airlines sealed up the airstairs. I would think that on pressurized flight, it would be impossible to open up the airstairs due to the pressure difference, because the normal doors can't be opened, but I'm just guessing on that.
1 year ago -

From: http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/727_rear_doors.html

"BTW, there is a tail skid on the B727, but I think it is only there to help if there is over rotation on takeoff. Also, the aft airstairs now have an airspeed switch that prevents the aft airstairs from being
lowered in flight. Maintenance crews occassionally call this the "DB Cooper" switch.

From:
http://www.aero.com/publications/parachutes/9602/pc0296.htm

"A Trans World Boeing 727 with 72 people aboard landed at San Antonio International Airport Tuesday night after the aircraft's rear stairs deployed in flight. TWA Flight 199 was flying from St. Louis to San Antonio when a cockpit warning light indicated that the stairs under the jet's tail engine had become unlocked, an airline spokesman said....
The pilot descended to 3,000 feet and depressurized the cabin so that the stairs, which are behind a bulkhead door in the rear of the aircraft, could be retracted. "A crew member reached around, grabbed the handle, and pulled, raising the stairs hydraulically," [the spokesman] said. A rope was tied around the handle to keep the stairs raised.... TWA policy requires that the rear stairs be lowered when an aircraft is on the ground as a safety precaution, and crews use the stairs to gain access. "
.... Mechanics in San Antonio serviced the hydraulic system that operates the stairs. The plane, operated by TWA since 1969, flew its scheduled route Wednesday."

Found this anecdote:

"The man's name on the plane's manifest was Dan Cooper. There was also a male passenger already on board named Michael Cooper, traveling from Missoula, Montana to Seattle. (The press was later credited with identifying the middle-aged man as "D.B. Cooper" and that identifier has remained in most accounts since that time.) "


Cooper asked the plane remain unpressurised
before liftoff at SEA. Did he understand the relationship between unpressurised and getting
the rear door open - was this the basis for his request?

[EDIT] Im going to edit this. I see some crucial issues
in this -

(1) it possibly goes to skill level/experience on Cooper's part.

(2) Did 305's rear stairs function normally - not drop
like a rock. Sounds like they functioned normally.
What was the hangup for Cooper getting the stairs
out? Air pressure?

(3) Ckret used Cooper wanting the aft door open
and plane going unpressurised at liftoff as a sign Cooper wanted to bail early, at SEA. It may have
had nothing to do with that, but with pressure issues
once in flight? If that is the reason then there is
nothing to indicate Cooper intended to bail early
at SEA. Unpressurised was a specific request on
Cooper's part. If you discount having the rear door
open as indicating early bailout, then quite obviously
it was wind and pressure issues Cooper was thinking about, because you cant bail until a door is open!

[georger 263]

Quote

georger has mused about cables-only.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff/arff727.pdf
reference page 1 of this.
it's oct 31, 2007 from boeing. It's similar to the netherlands paper.

It shows "airstair hydraulic accumulator" and "airstair hydraulic reservoir" labels on the plane figure.

I can search some more, but I think we already covered the hydraulic detail for the airstair. It's not just a passive damping system like you propose.

well... the reason for my 'musings' is you havent explained HOW in a hydraulic system, the stairs
can drop like a rock or swing shut like a leaf -
The Ckret slam effect.

When you explain this then I will stop musing.

[snowmman 3]

Georger. some more detail on bathroom and stairs. I have a detailed picture of the hydraulic.

remember the photo of the aft door, where I said it included the bathroom but I wasn't sure which side was the bathroom.

it looks like 727's might have typically had two bathrooms in back? one on each side?

this pic attached is from an excellent 727 article in the May '63 issue of Flight International ..the full article is available online starting on this page
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200703.html

I think this is a different technical article than I posted about before.

Great tidbits of info

"The search for the optimum high-lift wing was a natural extension of the programme already undertaken to improve the field performance of the 707. ....At one time there were 41 Boeing engineers engaged solely in the laying out of different flap configurations. Several hundred arrangements were investigated..."

also note

"The stairs consist of an upper fixed portion and a lower section hinged about it's upper (forward) end and retracted upwards by a hydraulic jack which breaks the support struts. Stair operation can be controlled from the head of the stairway or thefrom the ground, and in the absence of the hydraulic power manual pumping may be used for raising and gravity for lowering. The stair struts are stress to bear both tensile and compressive loads"

The detail here is incredible (figures)

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200707.html

Attached is a snap of the development timeline


To give you an idea of how cool the article is, I also attached a snap of a two page 727 centerfold from it. too small to read here.

In the airstair hydraulic detail, (40) is "Airstair actuator and pogo-stick linkage (detail shown retracted)

(41) is "Airstair down-lock"

(38) is "Ventral Airstair"

Here's the new info: Those vertical arms are not hydraulics.
See the picture for where the hydraulic is.
Interesting! You can see how it drops now!
All questions resolved, I think!

I have the whole article in a single pdf (5.2MB) because that site is slow and individual pages, but don't have a good place to post it.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

There was also a male passenger already on board named Michael Cooper, traveling from Missoula, Montana to Seattle.

Ooh conspiracy theorists, sharpen your pencils!!

--
The unpressurised request we have discussed before. The plane would have had to be unpressurised to open the stairs (as anyone who watched any airplane disaster move knows), Cooper most likely knew unpressurised up to 10K was no big deal, an easier to convince them of than of depressurising once they got there (as per previous discussion). Besides, if he wanted to bail without them knowing where he was doing it (which makes sense - harder to find), then sending through a depressurisation request just before jumping would be counterproductive

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"well... the reason for my 'musings' is you havent explained HOW in a hydraulic system, the stairs
can drop like a rock or swing shut like a leaf -
The Ckret slam effect.

When you explain this then I will stop musing."

I think my post above answers it. The links are sufficient for finding the source pages if you want. The article is 13 pages. One page is out of order there. One page is missing too.

(edit) look at the linkages. It's not like the hydraulic arms that you see on things like pickup truck cabs, or minivan overhead doors etc. The struts are separate from the hydraulic.

(edit) I still suspect there's some bleeding of the hydraulic that allows the drop. Or the hydraulic is released after the door is locked, allowing the struts to pivot down when unlocked.

[snowmman 3]

"The stair struts are stress to bear both tensile and compressive loads"

That sentence from the article explains why the stairs can act as a tail stand? (compressive load stress)


(edit)
Georger said:
"
Im not convinced the hydraulic pistons on these
stairs did any work at all other than stabilisation. "

Just to belabor the point: Apparently what you see aren't the hydraulic pistons. They are the struts. Hydraulics aren't visible.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"then it may have been air pressure
which gave Cooper trouble getting the stairs out ...
with no weight on them?"

Yes, they were dead easy to open. The placard was there for easy emergency use. Just one pull!

I think Ckret had this underlying idea of complexity. But there was no technical complexity.

The only "problem" was that they wouldn't go down because of the wind.

Did cooper think hydraulics would push down? don't know.

[snowmman 3]

that detailed 727 drawing shows 15 "interior service lights" on the ventral airstairs.

That explains why the picture sluggo has at his site is all lit up. I thought those lights were added for the camera, but apparently they are normal?

I don't know if by specifying "cabin lights off" if Cooper didn't get his stair lights. Might have been nice to have stair lights on.

Attached a snap of the drawing of the airstair showing the bottommost step, and the strut attach to the airstair.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

that detailed 727 drawing shows 15 "interior service lights" on the ventral airstairs.

That explains why the picture sluggo has at his site is all lit up. I thought those lights were added for the camera, but apparently they are normal?

I don't know if by specifying "cabin lights off" if Cooper didn't get his stair lights. Might have been nice to have stair lights on.

Attached a snap of the drawing of the airstair showing the bottommost step, and the strut attach to the airstair.

I'd imagine the airstairs lights were linked to the emergency exit lighting system though? Aren't these lights always on even when cabin lights are off, or do they require someone to flip a switch? (for the countless times i have flown i should know the answer to this...but i don't )

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 263]

Quote

Georger. some more detail on bathroom and stairs. I have a detailed picture of the hydraulic.

remember the photo of the aft door, where I said it included the bathroom but I wasn't sure which side was the bathroom.

it looks like 727's might have typically had two bathrooms in back? one on each side?

this pic attached is from an excellent 727 article in the May '63 issue of Flight International ..the full article is available online starting on this page
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200703.html

I think this is a different technical article than I posted about before.

Great tidbits of info

"The search for the optimum high-lift wing was a natural extension of the programme already undertaken to improve the field performance of the 707. ....At one time there were 41 Boeing engineers engaged solely in the laying out of different flap configurations. Several hundred arrangements were investigated..."

also note

"The stairs consist of an upper fixed portion and a lower section hinged about it's upper (forward) end and retracted upwards by a hydraulic jack which breaks the support struts. Stair operation can be controlled from the head of the stairway or thefrom the ground, and in the absence of the hydraulic power manual pumping may be used for raising and gravity for lowering. The stair struts are stress to bear both tensile and compressive loads"

The detail here is incredible (figures)

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200707.html

Attached is a snap of the development timeline


To give you an idea of how cool the article is, I also attached a snap of a two page 727 centerfold from it. too small to read here.

In the airstair hydraulic detail, (40) is "Airstair actuator and pogo-stick linkage (detail shown retracted)

(41) is "Airstair down-lock"

(38) is "Ventral Airstair"

Here's the new info: Those vertical arms are not hydraulics.
See the picture for where the hydraulic is.
Interesting! You can see how it drops now!
All questions resolved, I think!

I have the whole article in a single pdf (5.2MB) because that site is slow and individual pages, but don't have a good place to post it.

Its a goldmine. Why dont you forward it Sluggo
for his website ?

[georger 263]

Quote

Quote

There was also a male passenger already on board named Michael Cooper, traveling from Missoula, Montana to Seattle.

Ooh conspiracy theorists, sharpen your pencils!!

--
The unpressurised request we have discussed before. The plane would have had to be unpressurised to open the stairs (as anyone who watched any airplane disaster move knows), Cooper most likely knew unpressurised up to 10K was no big deal, an easier to convince them of than of depressurising once they got there (as per previous discussion). Besides, if he wanted to bail without them knowing where he was doing it (which makes sense - harder to find), then sending through a depressurisation request just before jumping would be counterproductive

well, I think the issue is could the door have been opened with cabin pressured at 10k or lower. If NO
then he obviously took care of this BEFORE liftoff
to avopid the issue in the air - and, this detracts
from Ckret's theory that Cooper and them open the
door because he intended to bail at SEA.

I never thought much of Ckret's theory on other grounds but we need to nail this one way or the
other if possible - because it also goes directly to
Cooper's skill level IF pressure is the central reason -

we are making nice progress in any event. makes me
happy and Im to bed finally -

[georger 263]

Quote

"The stair struts are stress to bear both tensile and compressive loads"

That sentence from the article explains why the stairs can act as a tail stand? (compressive load stress)


(edit)
Georger said:
"
Im not convinced the hydraulic pistons on these
stairs did any work at all other than stabilisation. "

Just to belabor the point: Apparently what you see aren't the hydraulic pistons. They are the struts. Hydraulics aren't visible.

you are 100% right..

[377 22]

Quote

Quote

Georger. some more detail on bathroom and stairs. I have a detailed picture of the hydraulic.

remember the photo of the aft door, where I said it included the bathroom but I wasn't sure which side was the bathroom.

it looks like 727's might have typically had two bathrooms in back? one on each side?

this pic attached is from an excellent 727 article in the May '63 issue of Flight International ..the full article is available online starting on this page
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200703.html

I think this is a different technical article than I posted about before.

Great tidbits of info

"The search for the optimum high-lift wing was a natural extension of the programme already undertaken to improve the field performance of the 707. ....At one time there were 41 Boeing engineers engaged solely in the laying out of different flap configurations. Several hundred arrangements were investigated..."

also note

"The stairs consist of an upper fixed portion and a lower section hinged about it's upper (forward) end and retracted upwards by a hydraulic jack which breaks the support struts. Stair operation can be controlled from the head of the stairway or thefrom the ground, and in the absence of the hydraulic power manual pumping may be used for raising and gravity for lowering. The stair struts are stress to bear both tensile and compressive loads"

The detail here is incredible (figures)

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%200707.html

Attached is a snap of the development timeline


To give you an idea of how cool the article is, I also attached a snap of a two page 727 centerfold from it. too small to read here.

In the airstair hydraulic detail, (40) is "Airstair actuator and pogo-stick linkage (detail shown retracted)

(41) is "Airstair down-lock"

(38) is "Ventral Airstair"

Here's the new info: Those vertical arms are not hydraulics.
See the picture for where the hydraulic is.
Interesting! You can see how it drops now!
All questions resolved, I think!

I have the whole article in a single pdf (5.2MB) because that site is slow and individual pages, but don't have a good place to post it.

Its a goldmine. Why dont you forward it Sluggo
for his website ?

GREAT work guys! Now I am really wondering if Cooper intended a quick exit after TO as Ckret contends.

How can we resolve the question about his intended exit point just from the depressurization command and attempts to have the crew take off with the stairs down?

Is it possible Cooper exited exactly where he had planned to? How much navigational awareness did Cooper have as the flight progressed? If Rat had tried to execute his plan to have Cooper exit over the Pacific Ocean, would Cooper have known and directed the plane back to the coast?

Snow once again has unearthed richly detailed 727 tech info that has eluded me.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Is it possible Cooper exited exactly where he had planned to? How much navigational awareness did Cooper have as the flight progressed? If Rat had tried to execute his plan to have Cooper exit over the Pacific Ocean, would Cooper have known and directed the plane back to the coast?
377

Given the back-and-forth about where the plane was headed... i'm still not convinced.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Rat as a murderer?

Let's say Rat succeeded in his premeditated plan to have Cooper exit over the Pacific where he would certainly have died. Not that any prosecutor would pursue it, but wouldn't it be a homicide? How could it be self defense? Once Cooper is out the door the threat from him is gone regardless of whether he exits over land or sea.

Rat's vindictive plan really had nothing to do with the safety of the crew. He just wanted to kill Cooper. A good defense lawyer would argue that the diversion over the Pacific was to avoid killing people on the ground if the bomb exploded after Cooper exited so that Rat's action was really "in defense of others".

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 263]

Quote

Quote

Quote

as we've discussed, there are a number of details a 727 hijacker should be aware of.

Note: when 305 landed at Reno the rear stairs were
dragging... CBS coverage noted this and remarked 'sparks from the rear stairs dragging....'

There was something in the transcript where they said the plane wouldn't be able to land with stairs down and then take off again - presumably precisely because of this.

The CBS reporter makes quite a point of 'sparks flying' - to milk the drama of the situation. However, the
reporter is standing right there in front of the rear stairs resting on the ground. You look beyond the reporter and the stairs dont look 'damaged'. In fact
I never could see any damage at all. And no sooner
does the reporter say 'sparks flying' motioning back
at the stairs, you look at the stairs and cant see any
damage, and... you realise people are going up and
down these stairs, at will! Evidently those stairs are
pretty rugged? (It brings into question the reporter's
report. )

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[georger 263]

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Rat as a murderer?

Let's say Rat succeeded in his premeditated plan to have Cooper exit over the Pacific where he would certainly have died. Not that any prosecutor would pursue it, but wouldn't it be a homicide? How could it be self defense? Once Cooper is out the door the threat from him is gone regardless of whether he exits over land or sea.

Rat's vindictive plan really had nothing to do with the safety of the crew. He just wanted to kill Cooper. A good defense lawyer would argue that the diversion over the Pacific was to avoid killing people on the ground if the bomb exploded after Cooper exited so that Rat's action was really "in defense of others".

377

The NWA Transcript makes it clear they
discussed methods of dealing with Cooper. There is
nothing in these transcripts that says bluntly: 'kill
the sob'. That only comes up later in personal
interviews and Scott is far more reserved than Rat.

It's always been a question in my mind how much these Transcripts are censured. The whole period
immediately after Cooper bailing is left out - a
period of intense communications, one would think.
The information from this period is therefore lost,
to us at least, which might include positional info ?