snowmman 3
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377 22
A reserve container does need to be "stuffed full" to keep the pins securely retained in the cones. A loose pack might still retain the pins and stay closed, you'd have to ask a rigger. I'd think a loosely packed reserve container would pop open in the buffet of a jet jump, but the pins might stay in from the force of the ripcord keeping them seated as long as the ripcord handle stays in its pocket.
As far as chutes being in private general aviation non jumpship planes... I have never seen them unless it was a glider or acro plane.
377
As far as chutes being in private general aviation non jumpship planes... I have never seen them unless it was a glider or acro plane.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
were the passengers unloaded using the rear stairs?
I thought at some point policy was to always lower the rear stairs to help prevent tipping of the plane.
Or did all the passengers depart thru the other doors?
I'm wondering if Cooper went in the bathroom, just to avoid the other passengers departing out the rear...
I thought at some point policy was to always lower the rear stairs to help prevent tipping of the plane.
Or did all the passengers depart thru the other doors?
I'm wondering if Cooper went in the bathroom, just to avoid the other passengers departing out the rear...
georger 264
what FOAM! ? Thats brand new. Where didQuoteI though I read somehwere that Cossey had packed that dummy reserve with foam. Am I mistaken? Wouldn't be the first time.
377
you get this? It cant be a Cossey statement???
The chute was a dud - a demonstrator - grabbed by mistake.
Th fact that Cooper apparently took this chute with
him (it was not on the plane at Reno) and cut up
a good reserve etc is part of the scenario Ckret uses
to claim Cooper was inexperienced.
Where are you getting this foam idea from, as it
applies to this particular case?
georger 264
Quotewere the passengers unloaded using the rear stairs?
I thought at some point policy was to always lower the rear stairs to help prevent tipping of the plane.
Or did all the passengers depart thru the other doors?
I'm wondering if Cooper went in the bathroom, just to avoid the other passengers departing out the rear...
My impression is the front door behind cockpit via stairs with the rear of the plane never opened.
In addition and more important, we have opening/
cracking the rear door BEFORE TAKEOFF which comes
up after passengers deplaned, later in the Transcripts.
If the rear door had already been opened and used
to deplane the passengers, then its already open and
not an issue -
I also think this because Hancock and Schafner are always spoken of (after landing) as being at the front or near the front of the airplane, and stews bringing things up the stairs at the front, and ... once the passengers had deplaned an issue developed and Scott radios and complains:
' cant you group those people together and get then away from the plane, and keep them away from the plane, we cant have them coming back - we just had one guy come running back that forgot his suitcase and we had to INTERCEPT HIM AND THROW HIM OFF THE STAIRS!' ... that implies: everything happening at the front of the plane.
I think all the activity was at the front of the plane.
(AL LEE in his car out front of the plane with the
chutes and money, and all of that)
G.
377 22
Quotewhat FOAM! ? Thats brand new.QuoteI though I read somehwere that Cossey had packed that dummy reserve with foam. Am I mistaken? Wouldn't be the first time.
377
Ckret says Coosey claimed that the dummy reserve contained a white canopy. I may have been remembering something SkydiveJack posted about dummy reserves containing soft material that could be quickly restuffed after practice pulls in training. I guess I was mistaken about the foam, sorry.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 264
QuoteQuotewhat FOAM! ? Thats brand new.QuoteI though I read somehwere that Cossey had packed that dummy reserve with foam. Am I mistaken? Wouldn't be the first time.
377
Ckret says Coosey claimed that the dummy reserve contained a white canopy. I may have been remembering something SkydiveJack posted about dummy reserves containing soft material that could be quickly restuffed after practice pulls in training. I guess I was mistaken about the foam, sorry.
Reply: I dont know, maybe it did have foam packing,
but I cant recall anything from Cossey that ever said
that?
In fact what we have had are a few people asking:
'well wouldnt Cooper have detected the chute was not full due to missing panels?' Its the kind of thing that
cant be answered and so far as I know Cossey never
said anything about foam ???
Its an intriguing idea! A foam filled container would
help with boyancy in a water landing!
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Snow- I have 500+ hours in light planes. I flew for 9 years back in the 80's. The first time I ever saw a parachute was when I jumped for the first time. Unless the plane is doing aerobatics, they aren't required. There are setups that have a parachute built into the smallest of light planes, but that's a totally different thing.
377- The dummy reserve was a practice setup made by Cossey for ground training. He took a regular canopy, removed several panels and resewed it. He used it for students to practice the "scoop and throw" reserve deployment during ground training. He made it so that he could stuff it back into the container with minimal time and effort.
Orange1- AFAIK, axes and escape ropes are standard emergency equipment in many big planes, passenger and cargo. Getting out of the cockpit in a hurry in case of fire, being able to get to the ground safely, that sort of thing. FWIW the "saw tooth" back on the survival knives (Rambo knives) was originally designed to go through aluminum aircraft skin, not wood.
I think Cooper depended on the "give them what they want and get them out of here" policy that was in place (and public knowledge) at the time. Keeping Tina close and having the bomb would keep the authorities and any potential heroes at bay. Only a guess, but "hiding" in the bathroom to avoid the other passengers, no matter where they exited makes sense to me.
377- The dummy reserve was a practice setup made by Cossey for ground training. He took a regular canopy, removed several panels and resewed it. He used it for students to practice the "scoop and throw" reserve deployment during ground training. He made it so that he could stuff it back into the container with minimal time and effort.
Orange1- AFAIK, axes and escape ropes are standard emergency equipment in many big planes, passenger and cargo. Getting out of the cockpit in a hurry in case of fire, being able to get to the ground safely, that sort of thing. FWIW the "saw tooth" back on the survival knives (Rambo knives) was originally designed to go through aluminum aircraft skin, not wood.
I think Cooper depended on the "give them what they want and get them out of here" policy that was in place (and public knowledge) at the time. Keeping Tina close and having the bomb would keep the authorities and any potential heroes at bay. Only a guess, but "hiding" in the bathroom to avoid the other passengers, no matter where they exited makes sense to me.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
377 22
The dummy reserves I trained on were filled with a big piece of foam. This made it look like a real reserve and it held the pins realistically due to the expansion forces from the compressed packed foam... but it was MUCH lighter in weight compared to a real reserve. My club and loft went to great lengths to distinctively mark non jumpable training gear so that nobody would jump it by mistake.
If Coosey's dummy was mistaken for a real reserve, it highlights the danger.
377
If Coosey's dummy was mistaken for a real reserve, it highlights the danger.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Quote377- The dummy reserve was a practice setup made by Cossey for ground training. He took a regular canopy, removed several panels and resewed it. He used it for students to practice the "scoop and throw" reserve deployment during ground training. He made it so that he could stuff it back into the container with minimal time and effort.
Thanks Joe. When did the training switch from using chest reserves w/o pilot chutes that had to be tossed out and later using chest reserves with pilot chutes? I learned both but I do not recall the transition date.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
wolfriverjoe 1,523
I have NO idea. My first jump was in 02. My knowledge of the dummy reserve comes entirely from the article in Parachutist a couple years back.
It was marked with a big red X, but was grabbed by the FBI, who were let in by an airport staffer who had a key. Crossey was contacted by phone, but couldn't make it to the DZ in time, and wasn't there. Perhaps part of the reason for the delay in getting the gear to SeaTac?
It was marked with a big red X, but was grabbed by the FBI, who were let in by an airport staffer who had a key. Crossey was contacted by phone, but couldn't make it to the DZ in time, and wasn't there. Perhaps part of the reason for the delay in getting the gear to SeaTac?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
Snowmman I really needed to see that photo again about the cut cords - I am not sure I looked at them hard enough before.
When I looked at that cut cord - it sure looks like the piece in the knife I showed Sluggo. The cord was made of several smaller gray cords and that is what is in the groove of that old knife - that appears to have been stored for a long long time.
The story I heard about what was in the dummy was that it was an old chute that was just used for fill - they didn't go out and by foam, but used what they had. Unrepairable chutes were often used as fill - per my source - a packer at that time.
When I looked at that cut cord - it sure looks like the piece in the knife I showed Sluggo. The cord was made of several smaller gray cords and that is what is in the groove of that old knife - that appears to have been stored for a long long time.
The story I heard about what was in the dummy was that it was an old chute that was just used for fill - they didn't go out and by foam, but used what they had. Unrepairable chutes were often used as fill - per my source - a packer at that time.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
QuoteSnowmman I really needed to see that photo again about the cut cords - I am not sure I looked at them hard enough before.
where would you have looked hard at them before?
Had you ever seen the cut ends before last year?
In any case, I think you're grasping at cords.
The cord would be white. Dyed red on the outside, with varying penetration likely.
Any grey likely is just age or dirt.
I can't see why pieces of cord would end up in a knife. To get a piece of cord, you need to have two cuts.
Why didn't Sluggo take a picture for us of this knife with cord?
Orange1 0
McChord was an example - it just sounded to me like he knew of somewhere close by he expected chutes from. But yes, it could as well have been from public knowledge as military exposure. Another unknown unknown.
fwiw, re small planes - in SA - in cessnas it is generally still very unusual to see pilots in emergency rigs, even when they are jumpers. (different for turbines, i think this is because cessnas can glide well on loss of engine power). if there are any FAA regs on that in the US, were they in place back then?
fwiw, re small planes - in SA - in cessnas it is generally still very unusual to see pilots in emergency rigs, even when they are jumpers. (different for turbines, i think this is because cessnas can glide well on loss of engine power). if there are any FAA regs on that in the US, were they in place back then?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 264
QuoteQuoteThe idea of requesting extra chutes was pure genius IF he intended it to imply that he was taking a crew member with him. It greatly enhanced the chances of getting good chutes.
Whether or not he intended that, that is certainly the way it was taken... that is also somewhere in the transcripts. I'm too tired to look for it now (it's late here), will check tomorrow for exact wording on that.
Also on the "weapons" etc side, there are a few instances where Cooper repeats he will use the bomb if his requests are blocked/denied. I'm sure that wasn't a chance anyone else was willing to take.
Sorry in above to clarify when i said waiting for the chutes - it looks like it was the reserves (chest packs) they were waiting for - tho I am unclear as to whether the mains had already been given over to Cooper or not. I'll check up on that again.
heres the timeline:
4:53pm t1 Money has arrived. Waiting on chutes from McChord.
FLTOPS: Al Lee is waiting for the chutes from McChord (AFB). Have money
with George Harris and as soon as the chutes arrive will be ready to go
to aircraft. Now leaving SEADD. The money is at Load Control.
5:22pm t1 Cooper getting very impatient over chute wait.
305: He is getting very impatient for the chutes. Will have to come up
with them pretty quickly.
SEADD: The chutes should be here any minute now. As soon as arrive will pick them up and be on their way.
305: He has inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the
fact that they are not available locally.
SEADD: Roger. Assure him this is so.
5:25pm t1 [Lee suggests offloading plane to give to Cooper what has arrived]
SEADD: Lee here. Have the 2 back pack chutes and have the money. If can land now and come to back (of the plane) and get the two chutes when they arrive (when we bring them out) and then let the passengers off, we
will (agree) to do this.
5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway.
SEADD: Everything has arrive and All Lee is on the way with all of it.
305: Will begin our descent now.
SEADD: Roger.
MSPFLTOPS: Don’t hurry too much to allow aircraft to get out there (said to Al Lee)
305: Roger. (agrees but Al Lee not listening!)
5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory.
MSPFLTOPS: Any word yet?
SEADD: The flight is on the ground and they are making preps to hook up the fueling truck. The hijacker is in the LAV (lavatory) and think will stay there for a while.
6:38pm t1 Negotiates release of 2 stews … technical discussion about stairs.
305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl
Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs
for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after takeoff. Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partly before takeoff.
MSFLOPS: Don’t know of any way to lock stairs in intermediary position.
305: Roger, will talk to him again.
6:59pm t1 [Working on flap angle for extended stairs. Refueling. Mucklow id.]
305: He seems to be insistent with the stairs at 1 one degree.
MSP:Impossible to take off with stairs extended but full shut up.
305:Roger. Wants girl (Mucklow) to initiate stairs after takeoff. Should we tie her down to the structure?
MSP: Roger. A good idea to tie her to aircraft.
305: Roger.
And, on the issue of front vs back stairs being used:
305: Advised him 7:22 pm
MSP:Roger. Sea Reno is about 5 hundred miles. Will ND other stops of about that leg of 5 to 6 hundred miles.
305: Roger, will plan Reno first stop.
MSP:Roger. A second stop is Yuma Arizona. Its 87 miles on 076 rdl of San Diego, the 2nd VOR On the NR2 side of San Diego and the distance
120 miles instead of 87miles.
305:Roger MSP. Fuel truck left. Stair removed. Will have all leave the area and forward door has been closed. He has agreed to let us leave with
stairs in full up position. and he has called and said “Go”to get the plane on the road.
georger 264
QuoteI have NO idea. My first jump was in 02. My knowledge of the dummy reserve comes entirely from the article in Parachutist a couple years back.
It was marked with a big red X, but was grabbed by the FBI, who were let in by an airport staffer who had a key. Crossey was contacted by phone, but couldn't make it to the DZ in time, and wasn't there. Perhaps part of the reason for the delay in getting the gear to SeaTac?
I thought the two back packs came from Cossey's house, the cops waited at Isq, and he drove and met the cops at there, and they unloaded the
backpacks from his tunk into the cop car ......
we have a very complete extensive statement about this somewhere. I have it in my records but it would take time to look up and present - can if need be.
snowmman 3
I wasn't kidding about the rear airstairs and tipping.
Attached is a (real) photo of a tipped 727. England, Jan 1998.
(2nd photo is just for fun: 727 tail strike on takeoff, in 2003)
here's the post I found where someone described the first time they worried about tipping:
"In reply to the question as to why MD-80s and 727s have their ventral stairs down on the ground: it keeps them from tipping over (tail down) should someone goof when loading them! In the AIAA "Case Study in Aircraft Design: The Boeing 727", Mark Gregoire relates a story about when the first 727-200 was delivered to National Airlines. "As it rolled to a stop near the National hangar, amid the expectant dignitaries, the pilot touched the brakes and the airplane nose went down and then recoiled up and lifted the nose gear off the concrete approximately 6 to 8 inches. The gasps in the crowd were heard 3,000 miles away in Seattle.
Bill Clay put a team together and, armed with weight and balance data, toured the airlines outlining the entire spectrum of configuration control, ground handling, ballasting, and precautionary measures from sloping ramps to heavy snow loads on the tail.
As far as we know, no 727-200 has ever sat on its tail and maybe we over reacted to the National incident, but that's why, you will nearly always see a 727 with its rear airstairs down when parked. There are some rare cases where we attach lead to the radome bulkhead for extreme loading conditions."
Attached is a (real) photo of a tipped 727. England, Jan 1998.
(2nd photo is just for fun: 727 tail strike on takeoff, in 2003)
here's the post I found where someone described the first time they worried about tipping:
"In reply to the question as to why MD-80s and 727s have their ventral stairs down on the ground: it keeps them from tipping over (tail down) should someone goof when loading them! In the AIAA "Case Study in Aircraft Design: The Boeing 727", Mark Gregoire relates a story about when the first 727-200 was delivered to National Airlines. "As it rolled to a stop near the National hangar, amid the expectant dignitaries, the pilot touched the brakes and the airplane nose went down and then recoiled up and lifted the nose gear off the concrete approximately 6 to 8 inches. The gasps in the crowd were heard 3,000 miles away in Seattle.
Bill Clay put a team together and, armed with weight and balance data, toured the airlines outlining the entire spectrum of configuration control, ground handling, ballasting, and precautionary measures from sloping ramps to heavy snow loads on the tail.
As far as we know, no 727-200 has ever sat on its tail and maybe we over reacted to the National incident, but that's why, you will nearly always see a 727 with its rear airstairs down when parked. There are some rare cases where we attach lead to the radome bulkhead for extreme loading conditions."
Quote
where would you have looked hard at them before?
I can't see why pieces of cord would end up in a knife. To get a piece of cord, you need to have two cuts.
Why didn't Sluggo take a picture for us of this knife with cord?
Actually this is the first time I believe I had seen that photo unless you posted it on this sight before.
When I saw what the inside of the cord looked like - it was a bunch of smaller strands and it is a small segment of a strand in the knife. Sluggo didn't think it was cord but my mag glass said it looks like that photo. I would think if he was making a sawing motion - a fragment might have collected in the knife - not so likely with a whip and snap cut.
We have no idea how sharp his knife was. Probably just a piece of dust and a delusional woman imagining a strand from the cord.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
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