DB Cooper

[georger 264]

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sluggo,

well paul cini was whacked with the ax just a couple weeks before.

I think there's a supposition of how you control people in that post.

It's not necessary to remove any of their weapons or tools. In fact, if you convince people you are in control, even though they have some weapons, it's even better, because they think you have more.

Do you guys ever play texas hold-em? I think poker is the main game to think about here.

In a hostage situation where snipers are trained on your head, there is no need to convince the snipers to give up their weapons. The key is to convince everyone that shooting you in the head would lead to a worse outcome than just you dying.

There were at least one situation where a passenger shot the hijacker.

So I think it's a crap shoot believing you could remove all weapons that are a threat to you.

Not alarming anybody was probably the smartest thing cooper did.

SO: I would just say, Cooper achieved the goals you're implying (but with a different strategy? Mutual Assured Destruction?) without forcing the other guy to give up his weapons.

Hey don't they teach you this stuff in Nuke class?
North Korea, and Iran are doing a Cooper on the US as we speak. And they will succeed for the same reason Cooper did.

(edit) you could look thru all the other hijacks after Cooper. I only remember one case where the crew left and that's how the hijacker got caught. I think there was one where a hand gun was thrown up to the cockpit. Etc. A lot of randomness. In any case, there's no evidence that says many other hijacks needed to secure the rope and ax because they played a part in foiling the hijack.

I will allow that there are individual cases though.

Just to review, we know Scott discussed the crew
'bailing out' (Scott's words) of the cockpit, but they could not get Mucklow forward (with the meal ploy). The rope presented tonight may have been the means? That would have a slow method...

A bomb is all-encompassiong if kept in hand.
Broad deterent to being attacked (the axe). Mutal
destruction.... but, did he actually have the bomb
in hand or very clsoe by, at all times.

Dont forget, Nyrop ORDERED everyone to cooperate.
(This is one of the reasons Rat's singular desire to
'kill the bastard' stands out to me. Orders or no orders, I do think they all wanted rid of Cooper.)

Snow is correct - keeping order/peace is vital to
Coop's security. Its central to what Cooper actually
did ... the plan he personally put into operation.
Comfort zone = survival for all. His first act is
selecting Mucklow .... and rejecting Schafner, as
I see it.

New thought: if Coop had known about this rope
would it have been useful to him in securing the money or in bailing?

G.

[georger 264]

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Simply because I can don a chute like I’ve done it a thousand before (which I have) does not equate to any expertise in its use.

We've spoken at length about the possibility Cooper had exposure to parachutes this way, but i don't think anyone has raised this particular point before - and it is a good one.

several of the skydrivers mentioned this before ...
the one does not automatically imply the other -

Cooper landing and leaving footprints on the ground
would imply skill or luck ---- if we can find footprints
of Lucy north of you why not here!!! Just kidding.

[snowmman 3]

I guess I never gave the idea of crew experience serious thought.

I think someone who served on a flight crew would never do something like this to another flight crew.

I suppose guys like McCoy who was military helicopter pilot did it to a flight crew. But he was Guard right?

I guess I'm not sure what direction the discussion about ax and rope is supposed to be going. I don't see what it says.

Now if Cooper asked for the rope and axe, that would have said something.

But him not referring to them? I don't see how it tells us anything?

What about fire extinguishers? There's a good weapon too. Hell anything can be a weapon unless the other guy has a gun or a bomb.

Pick up a rock and throw it at someone's head. Good hit and he's dead.

(edit) How could Cooper have defended against pilot approaching with ax? Lots of random ways. Umbrella in overhead bin? Grab it and jab the pilot straight in the eyeball. That'll stop most folks.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"(This is one of the reasons Rat's singular desire to
'kill the bastard' stands out to me."


The apparent belief that bailing out would be suicidal probably worked to Cooper's advantage in keeping the peace...i.e. everyone was happy as long as they could reasonably believe Cooper would die on the jump.

Even though it's just money, people don't like the bad guy getting away.

If he's going to die, no reason to stress..just let him kill himself.

Good plan. Make the exit seem suicidal and non-lethal to anyone but yourself.

[Orange1 0]

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if we can find footprints
of Lucy north of you why not here!!! Just kidding.

Snow, not sure I agree that just because he served on a flight crew of some sort he wouldn't do it. Big difference between kicking cargo and crewing a passenger jet? In either case it requires an insight into his pyschology that we just don't have.

Of course there is also a difference, I presume, between a cargo jet (even if a 727) and a passenger one. Would the rope have been on a cargo jet too? How much would a kicker have known about the rope or axe even if they were normally in place on a cargo jet?

And back further, re the ripcord. Anyone know if it was dusted for prints and if it yielded anything useful if so?

edited to clarify: I am not assuming Cooper was a cargo kicker, but it is one of those that fits the bill. A pilot donning an emergency rig would know about the rope and axe, but would not (necessarily) have experience standing in a door. Cases where non-jumper pilots have been too scared to lean out to free a hooked-up skydiver spring to mind (vs those pilots who jump who have had no qualms about doing that). I may be reading too much into stuff but I really don't get the impression Cooper had door fear.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

even with the possibility of a couple of hand weapons (ax etc), the biggest risk to Cooper would have been 6 passenger guys coming back to kick his ass. No way he could fight back against that.

So the policy of "don't fight back and don't alarm the passengers" was Cooper's biggest strength (many crews did fight back in other hijacks though).

Why didn't they jump Cooper? Because they believed in him.

I think the fact that he was tall and fit, helped the image he projected. People defer to tall people. It's a fact.

If he was short, fat, someone who stuttered or said crazy shit, or young, things would have turned out different. The teenagers that tried to hijack usually got handled way differently.

Woman would have been handled differently too. Tina would have treated another woman differently unless she was obviously insane or maybe with a gun.

[snowmman 3]

"Snow, not sure I agree that just because he served on a flight crew of some sort he wouldn't do it. Big difference between kicking cargo and crewing a passenger jet?"

I guess I meant commercial crew member hijacking another commercial crew.

there are no kickers on any commercial cargo jets.

If you're saying kicker from military, then yeah sure.
but he wouldn't have 727 experience from being a kicker.

I guess what I'm saying is no commercial flight crew experience.

I really just don't understand where this ax/rope thing is going. I think it's just an off in the weeds thing..?

(edit) commercial flight crews: where would they get experience putting on chute rigs? I'm confused where we're going on this.

[georger 264]

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I guess I never gave the idea of crew experience serious thought.

I think someone who served on a flight crew would never do something like this to another flight crew.

I suppose guys like McCoy who was military helicopter pilot did it to a flight crew. But he was Guard right?

I guess I'm not sure what direction the discussion about ax and rope is supposed to be going. I don't see what it says.

Now if Cooper asked for the rope and axe, that would have said something.

But him not referring to them? I don't see how it tells us anything?

But, Cooper did keep his distance from the cockpit.
Refused to allow anyone from the cockpit to enter
the cabin area. Refused to allow Mucklow back into
the cockpit.

We also have this business of Cooper asking about
or being shown the oxy bottles (over his head). I
forget what was decided about that, but Ckret chimed
in.... In other words he is exploring or being shown
aspects of the plane, presumably he asked to be shown?

I agree a negative is empty but even a negative occurs in context.

• Quote

[Orange1 0]

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I think the fact that he was tall and fit, helped the image he projected. People defer to tall people. It's a fact.

Matter of perception?? I consider 5'10"-6' to be more average than "tall"... (and yes I am just 5'3" but when I think of the "tall" men I know they are the 6'2"-6'4" ones)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

georger mentioned the O2 thing

yes Ckret said the following about the O2:
(searching for "oxygen" posted by Ckret")

"Tina told Cooper that they may need oxygen flying at 10,000 feet and she started to tell him where the supplemental tanks could be found. Cooper stated, "I know where they are." No big mystery. "

we discussed the relationship of the tanks to Cooper's seat, and whether the supplemental tanks were on all flights or not, etc. But nothing conclusive about that stuff.

We can say that if Cooper did know, he didn't take the tanks out for ready use, right? I guess he knew that the 10,000 ft="need O2" idea was a little bit of bullshit.

[Orange1 0]

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"Snow, not sure I agree that just because he served on a flight crew of some sort he wouldn't do it. Big difference between kicking cargo and crewing a passenger jet?"

I guess I meant commercial crew member hijacking another commercial crew.

there are no kickers on any commercial cargo jets.

If you're saying kicker from military, then yeah sure.
but he wouldn't have 727 experience from being a kicker.

I guess what I'm saying is no commercial flight crew experience.

I really just don't understand where this ax/rope thing is going. I think it's just an off in the weeds thing..?

(edit) commercial flight crews: where would they get experience putting on chute rigs? I'm confused where we're going on this.

No re commercial crews and rigs, but there were for example smokejumpers who both kicked cargo in SE Asia and also flew in cargo 727s without kicking out of them.
Edited to add what i meant to say before accidentally clicking the post button:
I may have missed a beat somewhere (and yes I have made a couple of dumb posts lately) but I wasn't aware we were talking about commercial crews! I was still on the line of thought of people who would have experience donning emergency rigs but not necessarily jumping them.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

a short clip of the TransAfrik vid is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezHmG1Cqck4

the longer one is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BIJqb90S-8

I attached some snaps from the longer one. 2nd has cargo in the 727.

I like that the co-pilot was wearing something like oakley razor blades. :)

There was someone on the web who posted the following amidst employment advice (I snipped relevant). Interesting that the idea of flying fuel in the 727 was common? (the longer TransAfrik shows some tanker unload and some tanks on board..didn't snap though)

Different than the tanks I posted before. But I guess they did deliver fuel with 727. Amd to dirt runways.

the post:

"This was in Oct 1992 - Feb 1993. As I remember it, the Herc guys couldn't believe a 727 could be landed on a 4,500' unimproved strip (Dundo comes to mind) at max gross (plus) in the middle of a black night with only flare pots for r/w lights.

We did not only this, but operated routinely from dirt and other broken up type runways, usually coming over the field at Fl230, establishing radio contact with the ground operator, dropping the gear and flaps to 40 degrees, power to idle, and 2 and a half steep turns later we were on final."

"This was strictly an Angola op when I was there, flying fuel (Diesel, Jet-A)in tanks strapped down in the cabin. Maybe things have changed, but things to avoid are: "We've just had an election" and "Things are calm now"."

"I was on the original 727 brought over there from Miami. (N188CL) It can be seen (what's left of it, anyway) on the airliners.net website. When I was there it was exciting, bullets, stinger missles, etc., were everyday occurrences."

[Orange1 0]

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Hey 377: have you seen the youtube video on 727's carrying cargo landing on dirt strips in africa. Pretty amazing. True cowboy bush pilots. I'll provide the link if you've not seen it. Some cases look like they were delivering fuel.

Evidently during some war or the other, they would buy 727s for a million or so, and make it back in like a month. Pilots got paid by the hour and just flew nonstop. Like no rules.

727, vfr onto a dirt strip. Sure they were designed for it, but doing it is another thing.

Have you ever heard the phrase 'Africa is not for sissies'?

That does remind me though of this - from a link I have posted before (this was the Air America guy who had spent time in Africa both before and after his Asian work)

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In 1972 CAL had launched this experiment; B727 service to the islands between HNL and Guam with a specially prepared B727. It had INS long-range tanks, and special underside fender protection for landings on non-concrete airfields.

So off I go out to predawn darkness at HNL myself and a small group are walked out to this B727. On boarding I can see it is a 727 QC, with a cargo door and the, front half of the aircraft is cargo pallets. Smiling stewardess, NO WAY. We were greeted by the onboard flight mechanic who directed the some 20 pax to commissary boxes of box lunches and cold sodas. The pax seats were on floor-indexed pallets, no rugs no nothing.

The first of 12 stops was Johnston Island or was it Wake, after 30 years it is hard to remember. I remember old empty hangars and myself wandering around exploring, looking at the gooney birds. Then this flap when a US military man drove up saying get in they are looking for you to take off! After that it was Midway, then southeast to Kaiwulien, then Ponapei, then Truk, then Naimo Island, which was northern most of the Australian trust territories.

With the exception of islands that had been US military bases all the other landings were on crushed coral landing strips, uncontrolled airfields to say the least. The procedure was to drag the field, circle and land. It was pretty exciting to me as a first time pax to sit in a B727 and blow over a landing field below the palm tree level at 12O knots for the length of the field, then climb, turn and go into a tight VFR circular landing pattern. At the Naimo Island stop there was a delay because the twin engine Aussie jet servicing the island chain from south to north was late with the mail and the CAL/Air Micron that I was on was contracted to carry the mail north to Guam. More wandering around. The runway was right next to the water, grass huts, etc. Kids, fish, etc. Something out of National Geographic.

About stop six or seven we ran out of soft drinks, at stop nine we ran out of drinking water. People were coming and going on and off like a city bus, and the flight mechanic was handling everything, cargo, pax, preflight inspection, tickets, at each stop. It was hot as hell. Insects and birds got into the cabin. It was an experience.

We kept falling further & further behind the schedule, and now looking back with all the recent attention about crew duty hours in 24, you have to wonder how the hell they got away with it! I think the toilet overflowed about stop 9 or 10 and was taped shut by the flight mechanic.

from http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Sullivan.shtml

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

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georger mentioned the O2 thing

yes Ckret said the following about the O2:
(searching for "oxygen" posted by Ckret")

"Tina told Cooper that they may need oxygen flying at 10,000 feet and she started to tell him where the supplemental tanks could be found. Cooper stated, "I know where they are." No big mystery. "

we discussed the relationship of the tanks to Cooper's seat, and whether the supplemental tanks were on all flights or not, etc. But nothing conclusive about that stuff.

We can say that if Cooper did know, he didn't take the tanks out for ready use, right? I guess he knew that the 10,000 ft="need O2" idea was a little bit of bullshit.

But it was Tina who brought it up. Cooper didnt ask.
Her remark could bee taken to imply: 'we might go
higher than 10k and you might need need oxygen".
There was no guarantee that they might go to 15k,
out of error? In that light Cooper's brushing it off
is interesting. Especially since they discussed the
option of going higher and putting him asleep!
Tina seems to have erased that option!

[snowmman 3]

georger commenting on the O2 exchange

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But it was Tina who brought it up. Cooper didnt ask.
Her remark could bee taken to imply: 'we might go
higher than 10k and you might need need oxygen".
There was no guarantee that they might go to 15k,
out of error? In that light Cooper's brushing it off
is interesting. Especially since they discussed the
option of going higher and putting him asleep!
Tina seems to have erased that option!

well, there's a lot of info we don't have like the exact interviews. We have very short Ckret summaries of info in them.

There were simple things like the flaps going to 30 degrees, that Ckret didn't reveal for months and months.

We don't know when the flaps were put back to 15, but it was done after the crew thought Cooper had jumped.

With flaps at 30, the plane likely would have throttled back a bit? not flown as fast? I'm curious because there's one leg on the flight path that appears to have a slow down...around 8:10.

I'm wondering if they might have put the flaps back to 15 before Cooper jumped.

I'm wondering if it's possible the "pressure bump" might have been after they put the flaps back to 15.

We don't even know simple things like "how many minutes were the flaps at 30"

I'm assuming they backed off on the throttle with flaps at 30, because they didn't need as much air speed to avoid stalling...i.e. it's not just about adding drag to slow you down, but you lower the flaps so you can go slower without stalling? There might also be a worry about flying too fast for flaps deployed that much?

so we should be able to see it on the flight path map if it lasted for 3-6 minutes or more.

Why wasn't stuff like the pressure bump referenced to other cockpit events that would give more precision, rather than to the last time they talked to cooper?

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"But it was Tina who brought it up. Cooper didnt ask.
Her remark could bee taken to imply: 'we might go
higher than 10k and you might need need oxygen".
There was no guarantee that they might go to 15k,
out of error? In that light Cooper's brushing it off
is interesting. Especially since they discussed the
option of going higher and putting him asleep!
Tina seems to have erased that option! "

It may align with the idea that Cooper knew he was jumping right away...i.e. it didn't matter.

His only guarantee on not going to 15k was that he demanded 10k, but no way to enforce/prove a violation I suppose.

By keeping the aft door open, they couldn't pressurize. So maybe that was his control rod, nuke reactor-wise. He'd see masks drop if they went too high.
(we've discussed this)

But in any case, if he was going to jump early/soon, it wouldn't matter anyhow.

He'd just give them the finger as he's going out the door.

[skyjack71 0]

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I think the fact that he was tall and fit, helped the image he projected. People defer to tall people. It's a fact.

Matter of perception?? I consider 5'10"-6' to be more average than "tall"... (and yes I am just 5'3" but when I think of the "tall" men I know they are the 6'2"-6'4" ones)

Matter of times - in 1971 - 6 ft was tall. With all the hormones in our meats we are going giants now. Check any high school Album for the yrs 1942-1945 (approx yrs Cooper would have graudated) - you will find a very small percentage are over 5'8". I graduated 1958 - I was 5'7" and only 3 or 4 guys in our class were taller than I was.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Question: In reading the recent posts I have a serious question.
Remember way back after the transcripts came out in the forum.
There was a mention of Cooper going to the bathroom (I am curious as to why the crew didn't do something at that time).

Also WHAT the HELL did he do with the BOMB when he went to the bathroom?

Until this forum I had heard no mention of Cooper going to the bathroom - is that really in the transcripts or is it Myth?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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Until this forum I had heard no mention of Cooper going to the bathroom - is that really in the transcripts or is it Myth?

It's in the transcript. Moreover, it is very curious because the pilot says they think Cooper "will be a while" (or words to that effect, I don't have the transcript open right now - will look for the exact wording later). I haven't seen any explanation as to why they thought he would be taking his time...

P.S. guys (currently) in their 40s here were definitely not "grown" by hormones in their meat, particularly when their fathers are similar heights... maybe we are just taller in general down here

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

wow. it's true. americans seem short
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height

look at US vs Netherlands... I guess it is all that dutch ancestry helping keep our men tall

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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wow. it's true. americans seem short
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_height

look at US vs Netherlands... I guess it is all that dutch ancestry helping keep our men tall

I thought the height was due to less gravity near the poles, just kidding.

Funny to think a short inarticlulate Cooper might have literally been axed.

I think with a "bomb" and his proximity to a flight attendant, Cooper had little worry that the cockpit crerw would abandon the plane or attempt to subdue him with force. They are seasoned pros, they are macho, they wouldnt run and leave the stews alone to face death nor would they do something likely to trigger the "bomb." They did make the right call after all. Nobody got hurt except perhaps Cooper.

You can say Cooper was incredibly lucky or that he planned incredibly well. I am not sure which it is, obviously a mix, but which predominates?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

Oh yeah.. the transcript.

Scrolling through I am again drawn to one of the initial exchanges - where they are still waiting for the parachutes & money. 305 says "He has inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the fact that they are not available locally."
Did Cooper have a particular place in mind (like McChord for example) where he was expecting the chutes to come from?

There are 2 bits of the transcript as we have noted before, a kind of summary at the front (which i will call "summary" below) and the more detailed bits after that. They at times look like they are not quite the same wording, i'm not sure if the summary is verbatim but the 2nd bit is a verbatim, verified transcription from the recordings so those should be relied on more I guess (this also has relevance for eg the flaps discussion - the "summary' bit says 15 deg, the "transcript" is ambiguous as to whether Cooper asked for that or the pilot inferred it).

Anyway on the subject of the toilet episode:

"Summary" : 5.47PM PST: "The hijacker is in the lav and think will stay there for a while"
(This was before they started to relay the instructions about where Cooper wanted to go, flaps, stairs etc.)
Verbatim transcript: "OK he at the present time is in the lavatory and apparently desires to stay there at the present time."

And that is all on the subject. Not sure if it has any relevance but it appears that he was in the toilet at the same time as the passengers were disembarking from the plane. Was he just hiding from them??
This all happened before the parachutes arrived, which were the last to get there after the fuel & money. At some point he came out of the toilet but the moment is not recorded for posterity; the next reference to him is that he is writing his instructions.

(

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

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"OK he at the present time is in the lavatory and apparently desires to stay there at the present time."

That is odd, don't know what to make of it. You'd have thought he'd want to keep a sharp eye out for an FBI plane invasion.

His total dependence on chutes being supplied had to mean he knew that they could be obtained close enough to the airport to reach him in a reasonable amt of time. He was likely thinking McChord. The idea of requesting extra chutes was pure genius IF he intended it to imply that he was taking a crew member with him. It greatly enhanced the chances of getting good chutes.

Couldn't he have removed the foam from the dummy reserve, packed a lot of money in it, closed it up and reinserted the pins and ripcord to keep it secure? You could probbaly tie the reserve container to the main harness with lengths of suspension line. Was the dummy reserve's ripcord handle found on the plane?

He may have tossed the bomb, foam and other unnecessary baggage out the door before his jump. I am somehwat surprised none of it was ever found.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

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The idea of requesting extra chutes was pure genius IF he intended it to imply that he was taking a crew member with him. It greatly enhanced the chances of getting good chutes.

Whether or not he intended that, that is certainly the way it was taken... that is also somewhere in the transcripts. I'm too tired to look for it now (it's late here), will check tomorrow for exact wording on that.

Also on the "weapons" etc side, there are a few instances where Cooper repeats he will use the bomb if his requests are blocked/denied. I'm sure that wasn't a chance anyone else was willing to take.

Sorry in above to clarify when i said waiting for the chutes - it looks like it was the reserves (chest packs) they were waiting for - tho I am unclear as to whether the mains had already been given over to Cooper or not. I'll check up on that again.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

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Oh yeah.. the transcript.

Scrolling through I am again drawn to one of the initial exchanges - where they are still waiting for the parachutes & money. 305 says "He has inquired 3 times now about the chutes. He is not accepting the fact that they are not available locally."
Did Cooper have a particular place in mind (like McChord for example) where he was expecting the chutes to come from?

There's nothing that would make me think Cooper would think McChord would be the most likely place.

There's plenty of stuff that would say Issaquah would be the most likely place, in 1971. There's an assumption that Issaquah was obscure, not on the public radar. But I think skydiving was more in the papers then. And the public actually went to watch skydiving.

Oh here's a question. I've been reading about pilot emergency chutes. How common is it for small plane pilots (Cessna etc) to carry parachutes on board. I'm wondering how many parachutes are likely to exist at any airport catering to some number of private planes.

Of course, that wouldn't cover the chest pack question.