DB Cooper

[377 22]

Quote

I am sometimes amazed we survived alf the stuff we did - but it was good prep for becoming a Father
with three sons - and picking a good wife!

Georger,

You must have had better flares than I did. I messed up on my choice of a spouse, but show me a long time skydiver who doesnt have an ex. It's part of the sport.

Nowdays kids are so isolated from danger, too much so. Part of maturing is learning how to recognize and manage risk. I tried to let my kids have some exposure to danger, nothing that would kill them but enough that would give them some common sense and street smarts.

We all fell out of trees, jumped from roofs, played with fire, explored storm drains, rode homemade wood rafts down rain swollen creeks, played around trains and we survived. We all gained from those experiences that are now denied to kids. Too bad.

If Cooper were military he'd have known the high value of radio comms if jumping into an unknown area. Adding an accomplice would add risk of betrayal, but it would greatly enhance his chances of a succesful escape if he could communicate with the accomplice after landing. What are your thoughts on Cooper's possible use of radio? CB gear was common, easy to use and really cheap back then. I know it is speculative, but Cooper appears to have been a planner and what were his plans for getting from his LZ to a safe refuge?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Quote

We all were sure we were headed for Reform School!

There is a term I havent heard in YEARS! How they used to scare us kids with threats of being sent off to Reform School. Teachers, cops, scoutmasters even parents all used the threat. I never really knew what it was but imagined something like a brutal kids jail where you were fed gruel and beat up by bullies. The threats didn't deter me from adventures though, but it kept me wary of cops because I figured they could just throw me in a car and drop me off at Reform School. I had no concept of due process.

I have always wondered if Norjack was Cooper's first major crime. The fact that they didnt match his description or prints? to any criminal records makes me think it might have been.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

We all were sure we were headed for Reform School!

There is a term I havent heard in YEARS! How they used to scare us kids with threats of being sent off to Reform School. Teachers, cops, scoutmasters even parents all used the threat. I never really knew what it was but imagined something like a brutal kids jail where you were fed gruel and beat up by bullies. The threats didn't deter me from adventures though, but it kept me wary of cops because I figured they could just throw me in a car and drop me off at Reform School. I had no concept of due process.

I have always wondered if Norjack was Cooper's first major crime. The fact that they didnt match his description or prints? to any criminal records makes me think it might have been.

377

It would seem it was his first and
only major crime, by his methods, but we dont
know what the FBI knows.

In addition, the systems that might lead to an
answer arent available to us to know (or to Snow
either).

This is why we are restricted to the kinds of discussions we can have.

G.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Adding an accomplice would add risk of betrayal, but it would greatly enhance his chances of a succesful escape if he could communicate with the accomplice after landing. What are your thoughts on Cooper's possible use of radio? CB gear was common, easy to use and really cheap back then. I know it is speculative, but Cooper appears to have been a planner and what were his plans for getting from his LZ to a safe refuge?

CB gear would have made sense. Paper bag? Briefcase? Accomplice presumably would have got a decent cut to keep his (or her) silence...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

Adding an accomplice would add risk of betrayal, but it would greatly enhance his chances of a succesful escape if he could communicate with the accomplice after landing. What are your thoughts on Cooper's possible use of radio? CB gear was common, easy to use and really cheap back then. I know it is speculative, but Cooper appears to have been a planner and what were his plans for getting from his LZ to a safe refuge?

Maybe he had Milk-of-Magnessia in the brown paper bag! Or, a photo of his beloved. Maybe a pistola!
Maybe his Tonka fold-down-light sabre.

I searched old posts and no word from Ckret on
if the bag was left on the plane, that I can find.
I think it would have been listed in news articles
if it was left on the plane. The FBi did not have to release any info about things left behind.

Now, if he has no gun and his bomb is a phony,
where does this leave Mr. Cooper if push comes
to shove? "I give up". Thats where it leaves him.

So, he's a Mentalist, or a fool or both.

Did Duane carry any weapon, beyond Jo?

G.

codeword tonight is: MIKE61. (got that Jo?)







CB gear would have made sense. Paper bag? Briefcase? Accomplice presumably would have got a decent cut to keep his (or her) silence...

[Orange1 0]

Quote

In the foreground is the DC-3 that the Boise Inter Regional (later “Hotshot”) Crew sometimes flew to fires. If a fire was out of range of the DC-3, we would fly something bigger. In the early days, it was usually a Sierra Pacific Convair 580; later, an Evergreen Airlines Boeing 727. The rumor was that Evergreen started out as a CIA cover corporation.

The CIA rumour was right as we know from stuff here, but the 727 bit is of more interest?? I don't see a date for the "later" although the pic he refers to was taken in 1983 and he started with the smokejumpers in 1980. But, unless I am misreading the above...here we have info on smokejumpers jumping a 727. Can't remember if Evergreen had cut its CIA ties by then - will go back and check later.

Source: (pretty short and interesting)

http://flickr.com/photos/25387106@N06/2451897212/in/pool-federalfire

[aside: So, I found a vet who was involved with the CIA, spent time at Udorn, was in the US at the right time and back in SE Asia from Dec 1971 Only one tiny picture of him that I could find in which he could look like DB Cooper or just about anyone else
Anyway not gonna mention names, it's pure speculation and I haven't been able to determine his age (tho the tiny pic makes him look like he could be right...)]

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

In the foreground is the DC-3 that the Boise Inter Regional (later “Hotshot”) Crew sometimes flew to fires. If a fire was out of range of the DC-3, we would fly something bigger. In the early days, it was usually a Sierra Pacific Convair 580; later, an Evergreen Airlines Boeing 727. The rumor was that Evergreen started out as a CIA cover corporation.

The CIA rumour was right as we know from stuff here, but the 727 bit is of more interest?? I don't see a date for the "later" although the pic he refers to was taken in 1983 and he started with the smokejumpers in 1980. But, unless I am misreading the above...here we have info on smokejumpers jumping a 727. Can't remember if Evergreen had cut its CIA ties by then - will go back and check later.

Source: (pretty short and interesting)

http://flickr.com/photos/25387106@N06/2451897212/in/pool-federalfire

[aside: So, I found a vet who was involved with the CIA, spent time at Udorn, was in the US at the right time and back in SE Asia from Dec 1971 Only one tiny picture of him that I could find in which he could look like DB Cooper or just about anyone else
Anyway not gonna mention names, it's pure speculation and I haven't been able to determine his age (tho the tiny pic makes him look like he could be right...)]

very good... any specifics on the hanger(s) or ops at
udorn? I can ask around -

G

[snowmman 3]

orange1:
at that link that mentioned use of the DC-3 and 727. I think you misread that. They didn't say they jumped out of those planes. I think they just got around the West, via airports, with those planes.

Said it was a Boise "hotshot" crew. Not necessarily jumpers either.

(edit) in fact, text in the article seems to confirm the author wasn't a jumper:
"In the above photo, the building behind the DC-3 is the Jumper Loft, our crew headquarters. The Loft had been used by the Boise Smokejumpers until they were disbanded in 1980."

(edit) you can see what a "hotshot" crew is here.
basically rapid-response. I think it's more a ego thing than anything. Kind of like saying you're in the Marines? meanwhile you're being shipped around during the summer doing a lot of dangerous hot, tiring work.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_hist.html

[Orange1 0]

ah Snow, i think you're right... thought it was too good to be true.. saw the headline and, um, jumped to a conclusion.

however, did you see earlier i did find real

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=248&magazine_editions_id=16

just an interesting perspective from one of the CIA's smokejumpers!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

Ive been playing on the Internet. Plugged in /DB Cooper cult/ at Google and quite a lot turned up including many old posts by Jo Weber going way back.

Then an amazing article surfaced: an old account of the Cooper hijacking by Michael Taylor of the San Francisco Chronicle, written in 1996.

This really is an amazing article with a small wealth of hard information taken from interviews by Michael Taylor with many of the Cooper case principles.

Did you know for example, the Federal Prosecutor on the Cooper case was one Jack G. Collins. Any relation to John Collins aka Duane Weber who did time in Washington State?

This article includes verbatum statements by William Rataczak and others. Rataczak's statements give a slightly different perspective on the events of 11-24-71
and according to this account, It was co-pilot Rataczak who had been personally assgined the job of 'taking care of' Cooper, if anything came up. It was Rataczak who conducted all negotiations with Cooper, via Mucklow. And it was Rataczak who wanted to dispense with Cooper and kill him, take Cooper out into the ocean and dump him, or whatever was required.

This article, if true, confirms the suspicion I have always had from the Transcripts that indeed there was sentiment onboard #305 for getting rid of Cooper, and it was something more than just a sentiment.

This article, if a true account, also explains why Rataczak in particular took note of when he thought
Cooper had bailed, because Rataczak had been
assigned the job of keeping track, and Rataczak radioed that info quickly, and they did squak and blinked their lights as previously requested (in the Transcript).

That in Rataczak's mind Cooper was giving technical instructions including 15 degree down flaps! Rataczak flatly says Cooper was technically familiar with the 727 and knew what he was doing.

That Himmelsbach indeed was airborn and following behind #305 in an Air National Guard helicopter, but
the helicopter was too slow and struggling to keep up ....

That the F-106 pilots DID see #305 flash its blinker
lights, as 305 had been instructed to do (in the Transcript)! The F-106's were too fast and were flying in wide S-arcs in order to stay behind #305. They saw Rataczak flash #305's blinker lights as previously arranged, they moved in but never caught sight of Cooper.

This article is one of the missing links I have been
looking for... it adds context to the Transcripts. This
article provides context which may lead to an explanation for the flight comms blackout in the
Transcripts, immediately following Cooper's bail.
This article makes it clear immediately following
Cooper bailing, they knew he had bailed, were
searching for any sign of him, and had much to
discuss "privately". This period is simply gone from
the Transcripts. (But I am willing to bet there is a
transcript or two of this period somewhere.)

The url for this SF Chroncile 1996 article is:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER'S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103

I will post some snips from this article later tonight -

Georger


codeword today is: Glasgow

[snowmman 3]

georger said:
"...wrap correctly but this space for writing is what it is,
I can only type and try to wrap correctly, but nothing
comes out rgitht no matter what I do so I"

You're doing too much. You don't need to use the Enter (newline) key as much as you are.

Only use "Enter" when you want to start a new paragraph. Never if you start a new sentence within a paragraph.

If you want a blank line between paragraphs, hit "Enter" twice.

That's it.

Any more "Enter" usage, and you'll create the problems you mention.

[snowmman 3]

we touched on the Michael Taylor articles before
search for
Michael Taylor
posted by
snowmman

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

Bless you for the “This article, if true……” statements in your post.

This article can be found on my “Articles, Videos, etc.” page. Here’s a link:
D.B Cooper's Leap Into Infamy: Daring hijacker escaped by jumping from plane 25 years ago his fate still being speculated.

I personally don’t see Michael Taylor’s article as any more “factual” than any other of the media accounts. But, that’s why I started the “Articles, Videos, etc.” page…. So each individual could make up their own mind after reading (and looking) at the media info in chronological order.

Wonder where Taylor is toiday?

Sluggo_Monster (who visited “the Weapons Physics Lab” yesterday, and was awestruck… like a little kid.)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[georger 264]

Quote

georger,

Bless you for the “This article, if true……” statements in your post.

This article can be found on my “Articles, Videos, etc.” page. Here’s a link:
D.B Cooper's Leap Into Infamy: Daring hijacker escaped by jumping from plane 25 years ago his fate still being speculated.

I personally don’t see Michael Taylor’s article as any more “factual” than any other of the media accounts. But, that’s why I started the “Articles, Videos, etc.” page…. So each individual could make up their own mind after reading (and looking) at the media info in chronological order.

Wonder where Taylor is toiday?

Sluggo_Monster (who visited “the Weapons Physics Lab” yesterday, and was awestruck… like a little kid.)

Sluggo - you do see the quotes around passages
in the article, supposedly said by the people quoted.
I also wonder where Taylor is today. Maybe you could
find him and interview him for a clarification ...
Thanks - G.

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

Is the part about Cooper inspecting the rigger packing cards fact or fiction?.

377

It sure sounds wrong based on what Ckret has told us right? Like I mentioned, I wondered if Michael Taylor had made up the quotes. I sent him email a while back, but got no answer. I believe I had him quoting R. on the 30 degree issue some other place, which I disbelieved until we got the 2nd ckret transcript.

Taylor could just be cobbling together random info of unknown source.

I only bring it up again, because I ran into the article, and I remembered Rataczak on the Discovery show.

Posted right at Xmas - I wasnt even here. Sorry I missed it. I dont think Taylor could instal quotes
as a writer at the SFC if these were not quotes -
and not get slammed for it. Its tantamount to
invention if he did and he would be open to
severe criticism...

This bears looking into ?

G

[Orange1 0]

377 - you mentioned USAID. It seems to have been "helping" the CIA with cover too - I'd seen mention of similar before, and just come across this example:

Quote

Earl E. Jones was CIA Air Operations, 1964-66 (official title: deputy chief, Air Support Branch, USAID

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 264]

Quote

Quote

Michael Taylor wrote for the SF Chronicle, where the article first appeared on 11/17/96. The link below is when the LA news reprinted it a week later.

There are some factual errors in the article. I was wondering if Rataczak was actually talked to and quoted, as it appears. I used to think in another article that someone had made up R. quotes, when I read about 30 degree flaps. But that turned out to be accurate when we got the 2nd transcript.

What's interesting is that Rataczak, like he did in the Discovery show, (I posted what R. said in that German Discovery show a while back)...Rataczak is quoted below saying that Cooper asked for 15 degree flaps. Ckret says Cooper didn't ask for 15 degree flaps.

This is 1996. I'm wondering if Rataczak is having a bad memory..i.e. remembering the transcripts or maybe what Scott told him.

I'm also wondering about the comment about Cooper supposedly saying "airstairs". If all Cooper comments were relayed to the cabin, then Rataczak is really just hearing what the stews say? So maybe Rataczak got a false understanding of how aviation-savvy Cooper was, (he implies there was other terminology Cooper used)...since he was listening to the stew, not Cooper.

I've also attached the SF Chronicle article.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER%27S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103
``I was thinking, this guy knows a lot about the airplane,'' Rataczak, now a 57-year-old captain and still flying for Northwest, said the other day. ``With the gear down and the flaps at 15 degrees, it limits us to about 175 miles an hour. So I wondered, could he really equate flaps-at-15 with 175? The guy's no dummy.''

As for parachutes, Cooper got four, which made everybody wonder. Rataczak thought that maybe the hijacker was going to take a few of the flight crew with him and then, in horror, he thought, what if the FBI decided to summarily end the hijack by sabotaging all four parachutes.

``We really got concerned with the possibility that we were going to get bogus parachutes,'' Rataczak said.

The plane at last stopped circling Seattle - it was clear Cooper knew where he was because after glancing out a window, he asked why the plane was over nearby Tacoma - and landed on a remote section of the runway. Cooper ordered the flight crew to get the ``airstairs'' over to the plane. Given his constant use of aviation jargon, the crew thought he may have worked for Boeing or was a pilot. Finally, the hijacker released the passengers.

I thought Ckret said he had deduced Cooper didn't ask for 15 deg. As the quote I used from the transcript some days ago show, the pilot mentions 15 deg but the wording makes it ambiguous if Cooper actually asked for it or if the pilot supposed that from what he asked. Pilot also mentioned to ground control right then that he thought Cooper knew something about aviation.

Thats true. Its in the Transcript. Cant find it on the
spur of this moment but Scott says something to the effect, or like: 'no telling what he's got back there!'
meaning maps, manuals .... the jist of it is clear.
Cooepr technically saavy. Which does conflict with
Ckret's account.

Rataczak is quoted in several places as saying he
thought Cooper was technically competent. There
has always been this conflict between Rataczak and
the FBI. Who was on board the plane!?

Rat or the FBI ?

G.

[snowmman 3]

I had read some stuff on what flap settings were approved for 727 on takeoff by FAA.

apparently changed over the years?

In any case, 15 degrees was the typical flap setting for takeoff right?

There has been at least one crash attributed to flaps not being deployed right on takeoff.

I thought I remember reading that <15 degrees is approved under some cases, but will leave it to someone else to say what flap positions were FAA approved for 727 takeoff in 1971.

[georger 264]

Quote

I had read some stuff on what flap settings were approved for 727 on takeoff by FAA.

apparently changed over the years?

In any case, 15 degrees was the typical flap setting for takeoff right?

There has been at least one crash attributed to flaps not being deployed right on takeoff.

I thought I remember reading that <15 degrees is approved under some cases, but will leave it to someone else to say what flap positions were FAA approved for 727 takeoff in 1971.

Thats my understanding also - Sluggo gave a tutorial
on flap settings early last year (have to stop saying this year) - his list was very complete so we can look
that up.

One thing I noted when Ckret was here: he constantly
distinguished between 'things in the interview' vs 'things not in the interview/s' The former facts. The
latter myth or unproven. Of course Ckret is reading
from interviews and sticking with those exclusively?
So if Rat does not say X Y or Z in an interview, then
X Y or Z are not true, cannot be true? You see the
absurdity of that if applied universally. (I think you
said the same once).

Taylor can be found and asked about his article.

G.

[snowmman 3]

well, I tend to read some of Sluggo's posts as attempting to lecture, when lecturing isn't really what's required.

There's this post from Sluggo in the past, but I don't think it answers the question "What flap settings were FAA approved for takeoff for 727 in 1971". In fact, someone could address my premise: that there were only 1 or 2 settings the pilots were supposed to choose from, and that the FAA is involved somehow in saying what's "okay"

I'm not familiar with these issues, and I don't think Sluggo has flown a 727, so maybe someone else can chime in on the details of which flap settings were used when, on a 727, in 1971.

a Sluggo post in this area, from the past:
(it mentions 5/15/25 for takeoff).

"The 727-100 has the following Flap settings:
727-100 HIGH LIFT DEVICES
Flap positions are: UP 2, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30, and 40 with gates at the 2 and 25
positions. 5,15,25 Normally T-O and 30, 15, 5, Normal Landing.

At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for landing with 15 degrees flaps is: 142 knots
At 140,000 lbs. V sub Ref for Take-off with 15 degrees flaps is: 136 knots.

As you see these values are much lower that 160 – 170 knots being flown by 305.

Air Speed with any flap setting is controlled by Power (Throttle) setting, Pitch setting, and Company and Airport procedures/policy.
"

[snowmman 3]

this is from
http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/fly%20odds/thumb.html

Estimation of Take Off V Speeds

* Flap 15 V2 Speed will be 12 Kts more than V1/VR speed
* Flap 5 speeds should be about 8 kts more than flaps 15 V1/VR speed
* Flap 25 speeds will be about 8 kts less than flaps 15 V1/VR speed

Again you use the above procedure but add 104 at item 3
Using the same 140,000lb example
Weight over 100,000lbs is 40
Divide 40 by 2 to get 20
Add 104 to get V Ref Flap 15
So That's 20+104 That equals 124 Kts This is an approximation of V Ref flaps 40 and V1/VR for flaps 15.
So finishing the example using the above criteria

flap 15 V1/VR=124; V2 124 + 12=136 knots

flap 5 V1/VR+8=132; V2 132+12=144 knots

flap 25 V1/VR-8=116; V2 116+12=128 knots

there must be adjustments for altitude/temp though?


I'm just wondering if when you look at "everything" as in 1971, that the flaps at takeoff had to be at 15 degrees.

[skyjack71 0]

Not here to say anything other than I got an important message today. By the time I checked my emails this person was not there - quote - "new developement".

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 264]

Quote

this is from
http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/fly%20odds/thumb.html

Estimation of Take Off V Speeds

* Flap 15 V2 Speed will be 12 Kts more than V1/VR speed
* Flap 5 speeds should be about 8 kts more than flaps 15 V1/VR speed
* Flap 25 speeds will be about 8 kts less than flaps 15 V1/VR speed

Again you use the above procedure but add 104 at item 3
Using the same 140,000lb example
Weight over 100,000lbs is 40
Divide 40 by 2 to get 20
Add 104 to get V Ref Flap 15
So That's 20+104 That equals 124 Kts This is an approximation of V Ref flaps 40 and V1/VR for flaps 15.
So finishing the example using the above criteria

flap 15 V1/VR=124; V2 124 + 12=136 knots

flap 5 V1/VR+8=132; V2 132+12=144 knots

flap 25 V1/VR-8=116; V2 116+12=128 knots

there must be adjustments for altitude/temp though?


I'm just wondering if when you look at "everything" as in 1971, that the flaps at takeoff had to be at 15 degrees.

Dont know about you, but I find it astounding the 727 could gear down to the 128!? - 136 knot range
and still be in control, in the air. If Cooper knew this
he definately picked the right airplane...

If he didn't know this he picked the right airplane!

G.

[georger 264]

Quote

georger,

Bless you for the “This article, if true……” statements in your post.

This article can be found on my “Articles, Videos, etc.” page. Here’s a link:
D.B Cooper's Leap Into Infamy: Daring hijacker escaped by jumping from plane 25 years ago his fate still being speculated.

I personally don’t see Michael Taylor’s article as any more “factual” than any other of the media accounts. But, that’s why I started the “Articles, Videos, etc.” page…. So each individual could make up their own mind after reading (and looking) at the media info in chronological order.

Wonder where Taylor is toiday?

Sluggo_Monster (who visited “the Weapons Physics Lab” yesterday, and was awestruck… like a little kid.)

Did a quick check on Michael Taylor. He has a huge
vita. Son of a well known Hollywood writer-producer.
Graduate cum laude in journalism from the UC
system. Long time staff writer and Editor at the
San Franciso Chronicle. Survived two mergers.

He has a mile long list of researched articles.
Has an economics background and specialises
at the SFC in commodities trading issues, specialisation in metal and copper trading,
general articles on economics, and edits Car -
section!

Taylor is still at the Chronicle, and available by email.

Snow would undoubtedly find a lot more but Taylor
has a very long list of credits with Google -

It would be interesting to talk to him about his
Cooper article. Cant find that he has written anything further about Cooper since 1996 -

G.