DB Cooper

[Orange1 0]

I've come across mention of an old NSA newsletter called "The Static Line". There obviously wouldn't be anything on people dropping from 727s in them but possibly other interesting stuff.

377, do you think any of your contacts might have some issues lying around? I'm looking on the net to see if anything made it online, other than the odd reference.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Ah... finally. Snow had said he had seen many references to smokejumpers being used as cargo kickers for the CIA/Air America but none of them jumping with them. I finally found one

Quote

From Southeast Asia Johnson and Lewis along with other smokejumpers trained Guatemalans to jump out of airplanes (C-46’s). Johnson jumped out of airplanes during his tenure with the CIA so many times that he lost count.

from http://www.idahohistory.net/smokejumper/sj_indexes/johnson.pdf -- this is about the same guy in the earlier post (the one who was decorated in Korea).

From another link, just out of interest:

Quote

Hessel said that until two smokejumpers from McCall lost their lives no one knew about the smokejumpers working for the CIA. He said that the smokejumpers that went overseas told other jumpers that they spent the non-fire season working in the mines in Arizona. Once John “Tex” Lewis and Darrell Eubanks were killed in Southeast Asia, people began to find out more about these smokejumpers’ non-summer job.

from http://www.idahohistory.net/smokejumper/sj_indexes/hessel.pdf

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

for those interested in some of the politicking within the CIA about who was to run the covert air operations, see p2 onwards of this:
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/cialaos.pdf

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

CIA started recruiting smokejumpers pretty darn soon after it came into existence - this is the earliest reference I have come across:

Quote

Under the National Security Act of 1947, the Central Intelligence Agency was established and by 1949 the CIA went recruiting for candidates in the smokejumper organization. The CIA wanted smokejumpers because of their knowledge of jumping and surviving on the ground after the jump.

http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=358&magazine_editions_id=31

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

oh hey another one who actually jumped with the CIA...including in the Arctic! ... and in Vietnam.

Quote

Scott jumped on 47 firefighting missions with the Forest Service, completed 50 jumps with the CIA and jumped 17 times when training special forces in Vietnam.

Quote

The CIA recently presented the Lampasas High School graduate -- a former smoke jumper and B-17 crewman -- and other Operation Coldfeet participants with Agency Seal Medals at the CIA's McLean, Va. headquarters. Some details of the 1962 Arctic intelligence mission now have been declassified.

(Hey 377, does this mean these guys were actually the first to jump in the Arctic?)

Great article. http://www.lampasasdispatchrecord.com/news/2008/0704/front_page/002.html

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Absolutely fascinating stuff Orange. What first appeared to be a very tangential connection between the CIA and smoke jumpers has become major direct linkage. I had no idea that Arctic intelligence gathering jumps were made with Fulton Skyhook recoveries.

It is possible that Air America recruited smoke jumpers to work on the 727 airdrop tests.

Sometimes I take a big step back and think about Cooper from a macro view. The fact that no likely Cooper was reported missing after the hijack makes me think he survived the jump. The jump itself wasnt that hard to survive. The landing might have been very dangerous, or not dangerous at all, depending on where he came down. A night landing in a plowed field near a road would not have been such a big deal. Getting to civilization undetected does pose a problem though. Before the news got widely circulated someone might have picked up a wet hitchiker without much thought, but the next day they'd put two and two together. Maybe he hitched a ride with a hippie who didnt like cops, slipped him a few hundred and asked him to be cool.

When there was a big reward out for the SLA Patty Hearst kidnappers, they were living in the LA ghetto and nobody ratted them out. Some neighbors must have suspected that this large group of young white people and one black guy sharing a house in a black neighborhood just might have been the SLA. Not one tip was received.

Until Patty Hearst shot up the front of Mels Sporting Goods store with a machine gun from a VW bus that was recovered and had a parking ticket linked to the hideout address, they were invisible to the zillions of cops and FBI searching for them.

Folk heroes are often protected from the cops by those who identify with or sympathize with them.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

I was looking for something else, but came across this - the smokejumper angle has so far centred around missoula etc and marana but here is talk of alaska smokejumpers (and of flights to fairbanks from seattle...)

http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Gossett.shtml

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Folk heroes are often protected from the cops by those who identify with or sympathize with them.

Good point, and instructive example.

How long have these survivalist groups in montana & idaho been around?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 263]

Sorry Georger, I know you think this kind of thing is a waste of time, but I also know some other posters find it useful...so I will continue.

[377 22]

You are on a roll indeed, and look at the last name of the author .

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

To Georger's point, I have always thought Cooper looked quite a bit younger than the FBI estimate, but I assume Flo and Tina had ample opportunity to judge his age.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 263]

Quote

Absolutely fascinating stuff Orange. What first appeared to be a very tangential connection between the CIA and smoke jumpers has become major direct linkage. I had no idea that Arctic intelligence gathering jumps were made with Fulton Skyhook recoveries.

Rep: It is fascinating. A world of its own. Especially
the Arctic stuff. It shows you how far technology and people have come since .... Amundsen, Shackelton, etc stuck in ice flows for years! We now go in and
come out like it was a holiday. (and they say we
cant colonise Mars!).

G.

• Quote

[377 22]

Reminds me of a bad movie called Ice Station Zebra.
I was up for any movie with parachuting back then but the Arctic jump scenes looked soooo fake that I felt I had wasted my dollar spent on the movie ticket.

If I had known that smoke jumping could lead you into the CIA which had their own LSD stash and hookers on contract and that you could get first Arctic jump bragging rights, I might have taken a leave of absence from my grueling electrical engineeering studies and headed for Missoula... but Berkeley in the 60s had its own fun distractions so the regrets are not so deep.

How could Cooper have returned to civilization without somebody giving him a ride? He HAD to get into hiding quick. Any guy wandering around in the wilderness the next day would be an instant suspect.

I think there is a strong possibility that someone did give him a ride and has remained silent for years. If he had jumped earlier, as appears to have been planned, he might possibly have had a vehicle stashed or an accomplice to pick him up, but it looks like he exited far past where he had hoped to.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 263]

Quote

To Georger's point, I have always thought Cooper looked quite a bit younger than the FBI estimate, but I assume Flo and Tina had ample opportunity to judge his age.

377

I dont know. I have sat here for months
saying nothing but, the poster looks younger than
47-50's to me!

Another thought: he's 45 to early 50's but in damned good physical condition which sometimes makes a person look younger.

To me: something doesnt add up in this age estimate as seen in the poster, or Im missing
something. I could easily be persuaded he is on
the low side of 45 and not a day older.

I wish I had his DNA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

G.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

You are on a roll indeed, and look at the last name of the author .

377

yeah, i did say i was looking for something else...

Georger - it was me who said the sketch looked younger. Sketch aside, it seems (if you look at some of those links) more than a few of those smokejumper types would have been born in the mid-late 1930s (I estimated 2 being born in 1938), which would make them in their mid-slightly late 30s at the time of the hijack - not hugely out on the age estimate of 40-45? Hmm.. just thinking as I write this, smokejumper types (remember a lot of these guys did stuff like logging in the offseason as well as CIA stuff in Asia!) would probably be fairly "weathered" and perhaps look older than they really are.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

How could Cooper have returned to civilization without somebody giving him a ride? He HAD to get into hiding quick. Any guy wandering around in the wilderness the next day would be an instant suspect.

I think there is a strong possibility that someone did give him a ride and has remained silent for years. If he had jumped earlier, as appears to have been planned, he might possibly have had a vehicle stashed or an accomplice to pick him up, but it looks like he exited far past where he had hoped to.

377

I keep thinking of accomplice too - if he survived. Perhaps back to the flares? How far can you see flares like that (and how useful would they actually be in that area at night) - just wondering out loud here about things that i (clearly) know very little about!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Weathering DEFINITELY makes one look older. I knew some commercial fishermen in their late 30s who shunned caps and sunscreen. Honestly, they looked close to 50! No deep wrinkles, just dark skin and a weathered look that instantly makes you think old. No double chins or drooping eyelids, but you'd just look at them and think they were far older than they really were.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

hmmm

Quote

Good old Intermountain Aviation.....the predecessor to Evergreen here at Pinal. In addition to the aircraft storage and maintenance business Intermountain did here, their main mission was dropping US Forest Service smokejumpers, performing aerial firefighting, and hauling cargo to fires. THAT was the cover for their CIA gig of flying "hard rice" into various countries, training and equipping the Cuban exile B-26 pilots for the Bay of Pigs, using the pictured B-17 with the Skyhook system, and other clandestine ops. Their company brochure described all sorts of the aforementioned firefighting tasks they performed, and the company's motto was "Total Air Support for Remote Operations", a nice double entendre .

That is really the only CIA stuff on this page but 377 is gonna LOVE the rest of it
http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=4&t=14154

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 263]

Quote

Quote

You are on a roll indeed, and look at the last name of the author .

377

yeah, i did say i was looking for something else...

Georger - it was me who said the sketch looked younger. Sketch aside, it seems (if you look at some of those links) more than a few of those smokejumper types would have been born in the mid-late 1930s (I estimated 2 being born in 1938), which would make them in their mid-slightly late 30s at the time of the hijack - not hugely out on the age estimate of 40-45? Hmm.. just thinking as I write this, smokejumper types (remember a lot of these guys did stuff like logging in the offseason as well as CIA stuff in Asia!) would probably be fairly "weathered" and perhaps look older than they really are.

anyone who works outside is going to be more weathered sooner or later... but.. you do have one thing going for you. People used to be more physically active longer into their lives ( the generations born before and around 1930 - ( the WWI and WWII generations). So its not impossible that Cooper could be one of these and fit. Its just
that sooner or later demography takes over and
you have to keep that in mind vis-a-vis potential
candidates... thats my thought.

What happened to Snowmman?

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Weathering DEFINITELY makes one look older. I knew some commercial fishermen in their late 30s who shunned caps and sunscreen. Honestly, they looked close to 50! No deep wrinkles, just dark skin and a weathered look that instantly makes you think old. No double chins or drooping eyelids, but you'd just look at them and think they were far older than they really were.

377

dark skin.... hmmm again

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Quote

How could Cooper have returned to civilization without somebody giving him a ride? He HAD to get into hiding quick. Any guy wandering around in the wilderness the next day would be an instant suspect.

I think there is a strong possibility that someone did give him a ride and has remained silent for years. If he had jumped earlier, as appears to have been planned, he might possibly have had a vehicle stashed or an accomplice to pick him up, but it looks like he exited far past where he had hoped to.

377

I keep thinking of accomplice too - if he survived. Perhaps back to the flares? How far can you see flares like that (and how useful would they actually be in that area at night) - just wondering out loud here about things that i (clearly) know very little about!

[Orange1 0]

Quote

There were five Air Operations Centers (AOC) in Laosunder AIRA, one for each military region. They were mannedby 21 personnel on TDY from Eglin. The code name for theAOC's was Palace Dog. Actual control of airstrike was by 21Raven FACs and by Lao/Thai Forward Air Guides (given sixdays of training at Udorn and assigned to each of Vang Pao'sbattalions).

Quote

In April 1971, the mood in Washington was "one of withdrawal and disengagement." "Any offensive operationswhich might appear to be dragging the United States deepedinto the war were viewed with the greatest concern.... Also, there had been a political/financial decision in 1971 to limit US air support for Southeast Asia to 10,000TACAIR (including Navy), 1,000 B-52, and 750 gunship sortiesa month (effective at the beginning of the new fiscal yearon July 1, 1971). There represented a reduction of 50 percent from the previous fiscal year.

lots more stuff in this link, not sure what is relevant... will read tomorrow http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aam71.pdf

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 22]

Very interesting stuff Orange. I am seeing some refs linking these Air America air ops to US AID work as well as CIA.

What a wild scene over there. The one that takes the cake so far is the Air America helicopter pursuing two AN 2s (BIG slow Russian/Chinese made biplanes, I have jumped from one) used as bombers and shooting them down with hand held weapons.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 263]

Quote

Quote

Weathering DEFINITELY makes one look older. I knew some commercial fishermen in their late 30s who shunned caps and sunscreen. Honestly, they looked close to 50! No deep wrinkles, just dark skin and a weathered look that instantly makes you think old. No double chins or drooping eyelids, but you'd just look at them and think they were far older than they really were.

377

dark skin.... hmmm again

but environmental vs genetic. (Dark vs Olive or
Dark & Olive)

Example: Christiansen, a northern light skinned Scandinavian. No way does he fit the profile
Another descriptor was: Mediterranean.

Who is doing the decribing: was olive and mediterranean a joint consensus? If it was Mucklow
alone using her own skin as the baseline, then
olive and mediterranean become a literal genetic
catagory vs Mucklow herself.

WTF werent we doing some of this when Larry was here to answer questions!

[georger 263]

Quote

Quote

How could Cooper have returned to civilization without somebody giving him a ride? He HAD to get into hiding quick. Any guy wandering around in the wilderness the next day would be an instant suspect.

I think there is a strong possibility that someone did give him a ride and has remained silent for years. If he had jumped earlier, as appears to have been planned, he might possibly have had a vehicle stashed or an accomplice to pick him up, but it looks like he exited far past where he had hoped to.

377

I keep thinking of accomplice too - if he survived. Perhaps back to the flares? How far can you see flares like that (and how useful would they actually be in that area at night) - just wondering out loud here about things that i (clearly) know very little about!

The "fusee" sulphur type road flares would not have been much use at a great distance on the ground unless Cooper was elevated and had a line of sight to his accomplice.

http://www.emergencyresponderproducts.com/roadflares.html

I lived near a railroad yard as a kid and there were lots of flares just lying around near the tracks. The RR workers used them all the time and just had stashes of them all over the place. We would pick a couple up, take them far away and ignite them. They were nothing special as a long distance signalling device. They didnt light up the sky or anything like that.

We did get 10 miles between two $29 Lafayette CB walkie talkies that only had a tenth of a watt of transmitter power when one person was on a hilltop that had a line of sight to the other person. If Cooper had a cheap walkie talkie and his accomplice went to a high mountain peak, 10 or 15 miles would be no problem. Basically if Cooper could see the peak or even a point on the slope, he could talk to someone who was located at the location he could see. There are a lot of folks on this forum (like G) who know FAR more about radio communications than I do and they can chime in on this subject.

377