georger 268
Orange1 0
Quote
There was a man on board who either was
or became a Federal Attorney - one of these?
Are you talking about this guy maybe?
Quotesaid Larry Finegold, a Seattle lawyer who was sitting on Flight 305 that day, wondering why the plane kept circling Seattle - and who, incidentally, is also a former federal prosecutor.
From the link Snow posted on Dec 26.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER%27S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103
Like I've said before if it was in a newspaper in 1996 it hardly counts as a secret...
I wonder how many federal employees there were in the US in 1971. I wonder how many of them would have been on planes to or from major cities at any given time. I daresay the odds were pretty high?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
I posted some time ago that link showing that the 727 was the most hijacked plane in the world... this is probably why:
http://www.unjlc.org/airoperations/fleet/boeing727
(the "today" was June 2006)QuoteOn Dec. 5, 1977, the worldwide 727 fleet carried its one billionth (1,000,000,000) passenger -- a mark never attained before by a commercial aircraft. Today, the number has reached well over 4 billion.
http://www.unjlc.org/airoperations/fleet/boeing727
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 268
QuoteQuote
There was a man on board who either was
or became a Federal Attorney - one of these?
Are you talking about this guy maybe?Quotesaid Larry Finegold, a Seattle lawyer who was sitting on Flight 305 that day, wondering why the plane kept circling Seattle - and who, incidentally, is also a former federal prosecutor.
From the link Snow posted on Dec 26.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER%27S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103
Like I've said before if it was in a newspaper in 1996 it hardly counts as a secret...
I wonder how many federal employees there were in the US in 1971. I wonder how many of them would have been on planes to or from major cities at any given time. I daresay the odds were pretty high?
I dont think Sluggo is talking about "odds".
Orange1 0
(Has this been posted before? not sure)
Another incident involving a 727, row 18, and the aft stairs:
... the accident to the United Airlines Boeing 727 which landed short of runway 34L at Salt Lake City Airport on 11 November 1965, initiating a localised fuel-fed fire within the aft/underside of the fuselage as the aircraft slid down the runway after both main undercarriage legs had sheared:-
…The aft stewardess on the aircraft in the Salt Lake City accident had been seated at her station in the aft 'jump-seat', 3 seat-rows aft of the area where the fire suddenly penetrated the cabin –ie under seat 18E, as the aircraft slid down the runway. She stated:-
"When the plane came to a stop all lights went out. The back of the plane was filled with smoke and fire. I got out of my seat. It took a few extra seconds to get my shoulder straps off. I opened the aft pressure door. Immediately two men ran through the door onto the stairs. At this time my hair caught fire. I put it out with my hand and my hat fell off."
This stewardess and the two men sheltered in the ventral area of the tail section until rescued 25 minutes later by firemen. During this time the stewardess breathed through her jacket. They were assisted by some air entering the partially open stairwell external door.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502609.pdf
Another incident involving a 727, row 18, and the aft stairs:
... the accident to the United Airlines Boeing 727 which landed short of runway 34L at Salt Lake City Airport on 11 November 1965, initiating a localised fuel-fed fire within the aft/underside of the fuselage as the aircraft slid down the runway after both main undercarriage legs had sheared:-
…The aft stewardess on the aircraft in the Salt Lake City accident had been seated at her station in the aft 'jump-seat', 3 seat-rows aft of the area where the fire suddenly penetrated the cabin –ie under seat 18E, as the aircraft slid down the runway. She stated:-
"When the plane came to a stop all lights went out. The back of the plane was filled with smoke and fire. I got out of my seat. It took a few extra seconds to get my shoulder straps off. I opened the aft pressure door. Immediately two men ran through the door onto the stairs. At this time my hair caught fire. I put it out with my hand and my hat fell off."
This stewardess and the two men sheltered in the ventral area of the tail section until rescued 25 minutes later by firemen. During this time the stewardess breathed through her jacket. They were assisted by some air entering the partially open stairwell external door.
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502609.pdf
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
georger 268
QuoteI posted some time ago that link showing that the 727 was the most hijacked plane in the world... this is probably why:
(the "today" was June 2006)QuoteOn Dec. 5, 1977, the worldwide 727 fleet carried its one billionth (1,000,000,000) passenger -- a mark never attained before by a commercial aircraft. Today, the number has reached well over 4 billion.
http://www.unjlc.org/airoperations/fleet/boeing727
By the same token as time passed the odds increase
that "somebody" will realise "you can jump out of the
back of one of those things" and try it - no special explanations needed. (no Vietnam history or Duane's
access to and familiarity with the 727 design plans
at Boeing required).
By the same token, you dont need a complex theory
to explain the placard's position or the money at
Tina Bar.
As I have said from the start: "The money IS the
evidence".
We have a guy who picked an obvious target, at a
vunerable time, and acted. The "odds" are there is
no more to it than that.
The odds also dictate if he isnt found there will be a large institutional and public bluster fed by public psychology and the media, during a period of national
tourmoil and insecurity with the public and some in
the FBI hungry for diversion !
I think, had Cooper murdered 10 people the
reaction and subsequent search might have been
quite different. By all accounts what Cooper did was a stunt, simple in its design, by a person whose primary
skills were "social", not technical. Technical explanations are hardly even required in this case,
and that is one surprising outcome of the analysis.
Cooper's social skills lead him into and through this
entire event, and every choice Cooper made, and
possibly the outcome. He bailed where he saw lights coming up because of his social instincts. These
lights were near the Columbia River ... or we would
have found money at Orchards ... or at Missoula MN!
This is where the odds lead.
G.
QuoteQuote
There was a man on board who either was
or became a Federal Attorney - one of these?
Are you talking about this guy maybe?Quotesaid Larry Finegold, a Seattle lawyer who was sitting on Flight 305 that day, wondering why the plane kept circling Seattle - and who, incidentally, is also a former federal prosecutor.
From the link Snow posted on Dec 26.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/D.B+COOPER%27S+LEAP+INTO+INFAMY+:+DARING+HIJACKER+ESCAPED+BY+JUMPING...-a084004103
Like I've said before if it was in a newspaper in 1996 it hardly counts as a secret...
I wonder how many federal employees there were in the US in 1971. I wonder how many of them would have been on planes to or from major cities at any given time. I daresay the odds were pretty high?
=======================
I have written communications with Finegold and I also spoke with him on the phone. He did not know if he saw Cooper and none of the photos I sent at that time triggered any memory. He was very nice and very professional.
P.S. It was a Holiday week-end and lots of Federal Employees not in investigative or secret positions where in flight all across the country. Just so happens that 4 of these guys where on that plane - it is really insignificant considering the status of their positions. They were JUST passengers like all of the others going home for the Holidays.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
One theory I had was that there were no black bills when the Ingrams discovered the money and that they darkened more over time, going from brown to black.
I was reading this note "Causes of Deterioration of Paper" at
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byauth/maravilla/deterioration-causes.html
and while the lignin content of US currency is not as high as some papers, it raises the interesting question of UV initiating reactions that continue after the UV is removed.
While we've been focused on the water and microbes and their affect on the found bills, a UV effect may be interesting, because it points in a different direction..i.e. that the bills were exposed to the Sun for a period of time, rather than being buried at all times until the Ingram discovery.
It would be very interesting if Tom could show that some amount of UV exposure was required to get the bills in the found state..as opposed to microbial and/or chemical effects being sufficient. (chemicals from river bottom etc)
(edit) I've also found notes about US currency ink behaving differently in different batches. Even the front and back inks have slightly different behaviors. Have to find out more about that, although 63-69 info may be required. (a small number of the ransom bills were actually series 1950, 1950A and 1950C)
from that web site:
"Pigments and dyestuff fade when exposed to light and this is very noticeable in water colors. Unfortunately, colors fade selectively, some disappearing while other remain unchanged, which means that the color relationships of a painting can be grossly distorted.
Rapid and serious deterioration of paper is caused by the oxidation of cellulose brought about by the ultraviolet rays in sunlight and fluorescent light. There are two effects of light on paper that result in its ultimate embrittlement and deterioration. First, it has a bleaching action that causes some whitening of paper and fading of colored papers and certain inks. Second, it causes any lignin, which may be present in the paper, to react with other compounds and turns it yellow or brownish. It is this reaction that results in newspapers' turning yellow on exposure to light. Certain invisible changes also occur at the same time when these visible effects of light are taking place. Fibers in the paper are broken into smaller and smaller units until they are so short they can no longer maintain the bonds necessary to hold the paper together. Some woods bleach under the action of light; some turn "yellow" and some darken. Unfortunately, the reactions initiated by light continue after the source of the damage has been removed."
In other work, I've taken to heart the feedback that in-person hijackings are so passe nowadays, and the team has made significant progress in the tools required to hijack the Boeing A160 UAV helicopter. This should be helpful when swarms of them are deployed over the U.S.
I was reading this note "Causes of Deterioration of Paper" at
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byauth/maravilla/deterioration-causes.html
and while the lignin content of US currency is not as high as some papers, it raises the interesting question of UV initiating reactions that continue after the UV is removed.
While we've been focused on the water and microbes and their affect on the found bills, a UV effect may be interesting, because it points in a different direction..i.e. that the bills were exposed to the Sun for a period of time, rather than being buried at all times until the Ingram discovery.
It would be very interesting if Tom could show that some amount of UV exposure was required to get the bills in the found state..as opposed to microbial and/or chemical effects being sufficient. (chemicals from river bottom etc)
(edit) I've also found notes about US currency ink behaving differently in different batches. Even the front and back inks have slightly different behaviors. Have to find out more about that, although 63-69 info may be required. (a small number of the ransom bills were actually series 1950, 1950A and 1950C)
from that web site:
"Pigments and dyestuff fade when exposed to light and this is very noticeable in water colors. Unfortunately, colors fade selectively, some disappearing while other remain unchanged, which means that the color relationships of a painting can be grossly distorted.
Rapid and serious deterioration of paper is caused by the oxidation of cellulose brought about by the ultraviolet rays in sunlight and fluorescent light. There are two effects of light on paper that result in its ultimate embrittlement and deterioration. First, it has a bleaching action that causes some whitening of paper and fading of colored papers and certain inks. Second, it causes any lignin, which may be present in the paper, to react with other compounds and turns it yellow or brownish. It is this reaction that results in newspapers' turning yellow on exposure to light. Certain invisible changes also occur at the same time when these visible effects of light are taking place. Fibers in the paper are broken into smaller and smaller units until they are so short they can no longer maintain the bonds necessary to hold the paper together. Some woods bleach under the action of light; some turn "yellow" and some darken. Unfortunately, the reactions initiated by light continue after the source of the damage has been removed."
In other work, I've taken to heart the feedback that in-person hijackings are so passe nowadays, and the team has made significant progress in the tools required to hijack the Boeing A160 UAV helicopter. This should be helpful when swarms of them are deployed over the U.S.
Orange1 0
QuoteP.S. It was a Holiday week-end and lots of Federal Employees not in investigative or secret positions where in flight all across the country. Just so happens that 4 of these guys where on that plane - it is really insignificant considering the status of their positions. They were JUST passengers like all of the others going home for the Holidays.
Yes, Jo, I'm sure they were.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
QuoteOne theory I had was that there were no black bills when the Ingrams discovered the money and that they darkened more over time, going from brown to black.
I was reading this note "Causes of Deterioration of Paper" at
http://cool-palimpsest.stanford.edu/byauth/maravilla/deterioration-causes.html
and while the lignin content of US currency is not as high as some papers, it raises the interesting question of UV initiating reactions that continue after the UV is removed.
While we've been focused on the water and microbes and their affect on the found bills, a UV effect may be interesting, because it points in a different direction..i.e. that the bills were exposed to the Sun for a period of time, rather than being buried at all times until the Ingram discovery.....
Interesting discovery, Snow.
The bills being exposed to UV (for some length of time presumably - do you know how long to initiate reaction?) perhaps points more in the direction of them being lost? Assuming Cooper didn't deliberately leave his booty out in the open for all and sundry to find. Wonder if Tom can give us any idea if he will be looking at this aspect?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
I haven't read the whole thing - don't think anything is directly relevant to this case, but just because some of the other posters/lurkers might find it interesting.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/pdf/70787main_FR2R.pdf
Introduction
Advances in aviation have rapidly evolved since the Wright brothers performed the first successful piloted, controlled, and sustained powered flight on the sand dunes of Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, on December 17, 1903. However, at every step forward for this remarkable development of flying machines came major bar-riers and continuous encounters with the complex technical phenomena surround-ing the science of flight. In 1917, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronau-tics (NACA) established Langley as its laboratory for identifying and finding solutions to the many challenges of aviation. Langley pioneered new technologies and concepts that have helped to transform the United States into a world leader in aviation. In 1958, Congress created the National Aeronautics and Space Adminis-tration (NASA) and the NACA laboratory became the Langley Research Center. The scope of research performed at this “center of aeronautical excellence” is unique. While literally tens of thousands of highly successful research projects conducted by Langley could have been mentioned, this book is intended to dis-cuss, in the author’s opinion, the research center’s most significant achievements in aviation over the past 85 years. The selected contributions are vivid examples of the value of national investments in research and development, and the transition from research to relevance.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/pdf/70787main_FR2R.pdf
Introduction
Advances in aviation have rapidly evolved since the Wright brothers performed the first successful piloted, controlled, and sustained powered flight on the sand dunes of Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, on December 17, 1903. However, at every step forward for this remarkable development of flying machines came major bar-riers and continuous encounters with the complex technical phenomena surround-ing the science of flight. In 1917, the National Advisory Committee for Aeronau-tics (NACA) established Langley as its laboratory for identifying and finding solutions to the many challenges of aviation. Langley pioneered new technologies and concepts that have helped to transform the United States into a world leader in aviation. In 1958, Congress created the National Aeronautics and Space Adminis-tration (NASA) and the NACA laboratory became the Langley Research Center. The scope of research performed at this “center of aeronautical excellence” is unique. While literally tens of thousands of highly successful research projects conducted by Langley could have been mentioned, this book is intended to dis-cuss, in the author’s opinion, the research center’s most significant achievements in aviation over the past 85 years. The selected contributions are vivid examples of the value of national investments in research and development, and the transition from research to relevance.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
I just thought this was interesting.
incandescent, near UV and near infrared
for the multichannel, it's
near-UV (standard color camera), visible, and near-IR.
Red maps to IR.
Green maps to visible.
Blue maps to UV.
Series 1999 $20
Series 2001 $10
Series 2003 $5
(edit)
this is all from
http://photos.staticfree.info/things/US%20currency%20in%20UV%20and%20IR/
more detail:
in the near-infrared spectrum.
Taken with an incandescent light and a Wrattan 87 filter.
in near-UV light.
Taken with a visible light camera to show fluorescence
incandescent, near UV and near infrared
for the multichannel, it's
near-UV (standard color camera), visible, and near-IR.
Red maps to IR.
Green maps to visible.
Blue maps to UV.
Series 1999 $20
Series 2001 $10
Series 2003 $5
(edit)
this is all from
http://photos.staticfree.info/things/US%20currency%20in%20UV%20and%20IR/
more detail:
in the near-infrared spectrum.
Taken with an incandescent light and a Wrattan 87 filter.
in near-UV light.
Taken with a visible light camera to show fluorescence
snowmman 3
This paper recommends using a Jasco FP6200 fluorescence spectrophotometer for doing a spectral scan...for determining counterfeits.
http://www.jascoinc.com/literature/pdf/appnotes/FP_01.02.pdf
However, they also say the fluorescence changes with aging...which is good since there might be something interesting about the Ingram bills, then.
I suspect the Ingram bills display a variety of fluorescence. the good bills might even be "close" to new bills.
They're focused on the security thread, but it also applies to background fluorescence of the bill.
Figure 1 on page 1 has a chart of a scan of background fluorescence.
Hey 377, it notes that in 1997 alone, there was $136,205,241 in counterfeit US currency discovered worldwide.
The paper says US currency has a high starch content. I didn't realize that? I thought it was the other way around...low starch content.
http://www.jascoinc.com/literature/pdf/appnotes/FP_01.02.pdf
However, they also say the fluorescence changes with aging...which is good since there might be something interesting about the Ingram bills, then.
I suspect the Ingram bills display a variety of fluorescence. the good bills might even be "close" to new bills.
They're focused on the security thread, but it also applies to background fluorescence of the bill.
Figure 1 on page 1 has a chart of a scan of background fluorescence.
Hey 377, it notes that in 1997 alone, there was $136,205,241 in counterfeit US currency discovered worldwide.
The paper says US currency has a high starch content. I didn't realize that? I thought it was the other way around...low starch content.
snowmman 3
This paper on counterfeiting US currency abroad had an interesting chart
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/mt/20070301/cover.pdf
chart attached. Shows increase of US currency abroad vs home, since 1971
looks like 1/3 of US currency is abroad today? less in 1971.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/mt/20070301/cover.pdf
chart attached. Shows increase of US currency abroad vs home, since 1971
looks like 1/3 of US currency is abroad today? less in 1971.
snowmman 3
The faded ink on some of the Ingram bills probably takes more than 3-4 months even with direct sun exposure in NW winter?
And a buried bill (even in a bucket a la Jo) wouldn't get the selective fading like that?
The ink fading may be the strongest evidence that Jo's story about buried money being thrown in the Columbia a couple of months before discovery, is not possible.???
There would have to be a plausible ink fade story. (ignore brittlement/decomposition/browning since that could be multiple sources).
I don't think microbial decomposition causes the ink fade?
(edit) on the high quality ingram auction photos I've posted before, there is some uniformity to the ink fade, within a single bill? That could be interesting, since the paper decomposition is non-uniform.
And a buried bill (even in a bucket a la Jo) wouldn't get the selective fading like that?
The ink fading may be the strongest evidence that Jo's story about buried money being thrown in the Columbia a couple of months before discovery, is not possible.???
There would have to be a plausible ink fade story. (ignore brittlement/decomposition/browning since that could be multiple sources).
I don't think microbial decomposition causes the ink fade?
(edit) on the high quality ingram auction photos I've posted before, there is some uniformity to the ink fade, within a single bill? That could be interesting, since the paper decomposition is non-uniform.
Orange1 0
QuoteHey 377, it notes that in 1997 alone, there was $136,205,241 in counterfeit US currency discovered worldwide.
Remember that info I found for 377, about USD use abroad...came from a doc that references both use and counterfeiting of USD abroad (joint effort by Fed, Treasury and Secret Service).
among other things:
- the report estimates that of U.S. notes in circulation abroad and at home, only about one note in 10,000 is counterfeit.
- The average incidence of counterfeit U.S. currency passing is generally low both inside and outside the United States, notwithstanding occasional large seizures of uncirculated counterfeits.
- A lack of legal authority for banks and cash handlers to confiscate suspected or actual counterfeit U.S. currency increases concern about counterfeiting and hampers enforcement.
- The Secret Service U.S. Dollars Counterfeit Note Search website established in 1999, www.usdollars.usss.gov, has been extremely effective in aiding banks and cash handlers, their customers, and law enforcement in tracking and identifying counterfeit notes.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/rptcongress/counterfeit/counterfeit2006.pdf
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuoteHey 377, it notes that in 1997 alone, there was $136,205,241 in counterfeit US currency discovered worldwide.
Remember that info I found for 377, about USD use abroad...came from a doc that references both use and counterfeiting of USD abroad (joint effort by Fed, Treasury and Secret Service).
among other things:
- the report estimates that of U.S. notes in circulation abroad and at home, only about one note in 10,000 is counterfeit.
- The average incidence of counterfeit U.S. currency passing is generally low both inside and outside the United States, notwithstanding occasional large seizures of uncirculated counterfeits.
- A lack of legal authority for banks and cash handlers to confiscate suspected or actual counterfeit U.S. currency increases concern about counterfeiting and hampers enforcement.
- The Secret Service U.S. Dollars Counterfeit Note Search website established in 1999, www.usdollars.usss.gov, has been extremely effective in aiding banks and cash handlers, their customers, and law enforcement in tracking and identifying counterfeit notes.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/rptcongress/counterfeit/counterfeit2006.pdf
yeah. I suppose you've read about the "supernotes"? (PN-14342)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar
Korea, Russia, China, CIA? :)
If it's possible to pass $100 million in currency, maybe heavily outside US, then it's worth investing $10 million in the equipment to print it?
I guess that's the real question. How easy is it to pass large quantities. If it's easy, then the use of expensive or hard to obtain technology becomes feasible.
Paper money is a bad idea. I guess it's required because economies aren't uniformly advanced in the world, to not require individual handling of money.
(edit) more detailed:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/magazine/23counterfeit.html?pagewanted=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/R/Richardson,%20Bill
georger 268
Interesting discovery, Snow.
The bills being exposed to UV (for some length of time presumably - do you know how long to initiate reaction?) perhaps points more in the direction of them being lost?
Reply: any money found at Tina Bar was "lost",
by definition, or it wouldnt have been found?
There are many published photos of bills found.
Point to one thing in those photos that points to
UV exposure and clarify your contention with the chemical reactions you have in mind?
We already discussed the chemistry of paper a long time ago -
I have yet to see one of the "brown" bills (going black)
that Snow keeps talking about.
Might of, should of, maybe this or that doesnt cut it.
That is why the panel was formed. And it isnt just
Tom. Other experts have contributed also -
G.
The bills being exposed to UV (for some length of time presumably - do you know how long to initiate reaction?) perhaps points more in the direction of them being lost?
Reply: any money found at Tina Bar was "lost",
by definition, or it wouldnt have been found?
There are many published photos of bills found.
Point to one thing in those photos that points to
UV exposure and clarify your contention with the chemical reactions you have in mind?
We already discussed the chemistry of paper a long time ago -
I have yet to see one of the "brown" bills (going black)
that Snow keeps talking about.
Might of, should of, maybe this or that doesnt cut it.
That is why the panel was formed. And it isnt just
Tom. Other experts have contributed also -
G.
snowmman 3
I just raised the question. geoger.
If it's a bad question, then sure, let's drop it.
Obviously I don't know jack about how US currency behaves under different environmental conditions. I'm exploring, trying to see what are the interesting variables.
Obviously there are experts that know a lot more than me.
Obviously there's been no analysis of the money to date otherwise we'd be told about it because it would close avenues of investigation.
You already have all the photos, as I've posted them.
Pick one and explain your theories for what caused the various effects.
-edge decomposition
-insect? holes
-ink fading on some bills, not on others.
-brown and black bills
If you've not seen the black bills you're not looking at the photos. Same thing if you've not seen the faded ink.
On the other hand, I've not heard any good description about any tests Tom has planned, so it makes sense to me to explore possibilities.
Tom said water/sand as the key contributors he was going to isolate.
microbes, insects, UV and Infrared are probably also measurable effects, but not along Tom's experience?
If there's a panel, great. let them describe what they think are effects that are measurable that they're going to measure.
If the panel doesn't show up here, I don't really care about them.
If it's a bad question, then sure, let's drop it.
Obviously I don't know jack about how US currency behaves under different environmental conditions. I'm exploring, trying to see what are the interesting variables.
Obviously there are experts that know a lot more than me.
Obviously there's been no analysis of the money to date otherwise we'd be told about it because it would close avenues of investigation.
You already have all the photos, as I've posted them.
Pick one and explain your theories for what caused the various effects.
-edge decomposition
-insect? holes
-ink fading on some bills, not on others.
-brown and black bills
If you've not seen the black bills you're not looking at the photos. Same thing if you've not seen the faded ink.
On the other hand, I've not heard any good description about any tests Tom has planned, so it makes sense to me to explore possibilities.
Tom said water/sand as the key contributors he was going to isolate.
microbes, insects, UV and Infrared are probably also measurable effects, but not along Tom's experience?
If there's a panel, great. let them describe what they think are effects that are measurable that they're going to measure.
If the panel doesn't show up here, I don't really care about them.
georger 268
QuoteOne theory I had was that there were no black bills when the Ingrams discovered the money and that they darkened more over time, going from brown to black.
Reply> you would be 100% wrong.
In addition, imho, you could bombard those bills with
UV from now until hell freezes over and still you would
never produce the black on those bills. Period.
It seems to me what you are saying is: 'The FBI
did a poor job of protecting the money'. That is a
separate issue which does require paper turning
brown then to black, all from UV exposure.
Do you know, for example, there is a chemistry of
US currency paper than retards affects from UV?
I'm not suggesting you not speculate but perhaps
with less certainty .... the panel was formed to
answer just such questions.
G.
georger 268
QuoteI just raised the question. geoger.
If it's a bad question, then sure, let's drop it.
Obviously I don't know jack about how US currency behaves under different environmental conditions. I'm exploring, trying to see what are the interesting variables.
Obviously there are experts that know a lot more than me.
Obviously there's been no analysis of the money to date otherwise we'd be told about it because it would close avenues of investigation.
You already have all the photos, as I've posted them.
Pick one and explain your theories for what caused the various effects.
-edge decomposition
-insect? holes
-ink fading on some bills, not on others.
-brown and black bills
If you've not seen the black bills you're not looking at the photos. Same thing if you've not seen the faded ink.
On the other hand, I've not heard any good description about any tests Tom has planned, so it makes sense to me to explore possibilities.
Tom said water/sand as the key contributors he was going to isolate.
microbes, insects, UV and Infrared are probably also measurable effects, but not along Tom's experience?
If there's a panel, great. let them describe what they think are effects that are measurable that they're going to measure.
If the panel doesn't show up here, I don't really care about them.
I have very great faith that Tom and others are
examining many issues. Tom's work is his to deliver
and I will not compromise that. The same applies
for others likewise, who have contributed or who may
still contribute.
One issue that could be discussed here is the hydrology to Tina Bar. You dont just toss a package
in the Columbia and have it wind up at Tina Bar, as
Jo would have it! The probabilities of bringing an
object to Tina Bar are rather specific. The delivery
of the money to Tina Bar obviously must correlate
with the condition of and the amount of money
found at Tina Bar. These issues involve hydrology,
potentially.
I cant steer discussion at his forum and dont
want to. Im giving my reaction -
G.
snowmman 3
Quote
Do you know, for example, there is a chemistry of
US currency paper than retards affects from UV?
No I didn't, Jo.
Describe it and we can talk about it.
snowmman 3
I believe this video is true. It shows what I was saying about how front/back fading can be selective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks73zutaGQ0
I've read news articles where there was a bad batch of inks for US bills... where the batch was front/back selective. And you got the fading.
here's a 1990 news article
"WASHINGTON - U.S dollars are fading away. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing blames the ink.
George Washington's face is looking especially pale on some $1 bills, and small sections of black ink are flaking off other denominations. The bureau says it was sent a batch of ''inferior quality'' ink last year.
The bureau realized the problem when some bills failed durability tests, which entail folding and washing the bills"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks73zutaGQ0
I've read news articles where there was a bad batch of inks for US bills... where the batch was front/back selective. And you got the fading.
here's a 1990 news article
"WASHINGTON - U.S dollars are fading away. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing blames the ink.
George Washington's face is looking especially pale on some $1 bills, and small sections of black ink are flaking off other denominations. The bureau says it was sent a batch of ''inferior quality'' ink last year.
The bureau realized the problem when some bills failed durability tests, which entail folding and washing the bills"
Georger
Gee, I don’t know if it was Montana (MT) or Minnesota (MN).
I did a MapSource search for Missoula MN and got “No items found”. Then I did the search for Missoula MT and got a map at N46 52.431 W113 59.996, so I guess that’s where I was talking about. I understand the plane (Flight 307) went through there on November 25th, 1971.
I was so shook-up up about the Navy Seals and MIBs they have guarding me (outside my motel room) I must have punched an “N” instead of a “T”.
Did you know that there are female MIBs (or I guess they are WIBs)? They look tougher than the male MIBs. Every since I went to work for URS/Lear Siegler/EG&G, I have been followed by “Camo-Dudes. The ones who work at Area-51
One of the WIBs said I had to surrender my Glock Mod 22 (.40 S&W), I told her; “You’ll get my Glock when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands!” So she kicked me in the balls and took it from me. My hands went cold, but I was far from dead… In fact I have never felt so alive in my (dull) life. Love hurts!
The head camo-dude brought it back to me and said Ms. WIB didn’t understand I was from Alabama (AT) and needed my security blanket. He said I could keep it, if I would quit shooting at the rabbits along the highway. I almost never hit any of them.
Sluggo_Monster (still on historic Route 68, in Santa Rosa, NN).
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Gee, I don’t know if it was Montana (MT) or Minnesota (MN).
I did a MapSource search for Missoula MN and got “No items found”. Then I did the search for Missoula MT and got a map at N46 52.431 W113 59.996, so I guess that’s where I was talking about. I understand the plane (Flight 307) went through there on November 25th, 1971.
I was so shook-up up about the Navy Seals and MIBs they have guarding me (outside my motel room) I must have punched an “N” instead of a “T”.
Did you know that there are female MIBs (or I guess they are WIBs)? They look tougher than the male MIBs. Every since I went to work for URS/Lear Siegler/EG&G, I have been followed by “Camo-Dudes. The ones who work at Area-51
One of the WIBs said I had to surrender my Glock Mod 22 (.40 S&W), I told her; “You’ll get my Glock when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands!” So she kicked me in the balls and took it from me. My hands went cold, but I was far from dead… In fact I have never felt so alive in my (dull) life. Love hurts!
The head camo-dude brought it back to me and said Ms. WIB didn’t understand I was from Alabama (AT) and needed my security blanket. He said I could keep it, if I would quit shooting at the rabbits along the highway. I almost never hit any of them.
Sluggo_Monster (still on historic Route 68, in Santa Rosa, NN).
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
=================
Of course they were on the plane, but not in any "secret" capacity. It was odd they were taken off separately from the other passengers. This was just because they worked with the Federal Government - no other reason I have been able to find.
If one of them was the man in front of the LDS Assembly Hall in 1979...that might freak a lot of people out. Cooper was a Lone (outlaw) Ranger with his Tonto.
There was a man on board who either was
or became a Federal Attorney - one of these?
....... in missoula, minnesota.