DB Cooper

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Quote

I remember arguing hard with Jo (might have been in PMs). I was quite sure 727s had never dropped anything much less people before Norjack. She was 100% sure they had during the Viet Nam war.

Boy was I wrong and I consider myself an aviation history buff. Kinda nice to see one of Jo's seemingly wild ideas vindicated. I know some of you don't want to say anything positive about Jo, but it is only fair to say she was right and I was wrong about pre Norjack 727 airdrops.

Happy New Year to Jo and everyone else.

377

That has always been one of the major
problems with Jo's info. She can be dead-right about
some things, she can find info, she talks to a zillion
people, over the years she has been one of the very
best at digging out information some of which comes
from principles in Washington .... and if she doesnt
have something she will turn Heaven and Earth over
to try and find it.

Its no wonder H took her seriously.

The problem is her net brings some really bogus
information also. And the info she has never seems
connect as she hopes it will, especially confirming
Duane as being Cooper.

If Jo was a pure researcher she might be irreplacable.

When you (377) and Jo got into this topic of 727's
being used for drops in Nam I sat by saying nothing, because I already knew Jo was right.

It was just a matter of finding a document to
document it, vs Jo's anecdotes, or mine...

It always comes down to proof.

G.

Thank you, unfortunately since I acquire information and file it away in 16 ft plus of documents I can't go back and find the info again. I know it is there, but NOT where. I acquired that information in 1996, but I was aware of it prior. but could never tell you when or how.

I only came here tonight to make a post regarding the GLASSES, but thought I would at least say Thank You regarding the posts I have read.

I spent time today with an Opthamologist and an Optician. Collectivly with 59 plus yrs in the business.

I took the script and pictures.

His prior record showed he was Far-sighted...as I had claimed.

No one took into consideration his high blood pressure meds (he was on these from 1973 until his death) and ageing of the eye. In the last few yrs he developed mild caractacs - hence the change in his eyesight in the last yrs.

They used some technical terms I will not try to repeat, but confimed what I told you guys before.

and not all of the time.

his scripts were never strong, it could be that he "preferred" to wear glasses for reasons only he knew...call it a comfort zone. In the system - his math and handwriting placed him in a less vunerable position within the system..the glasses promoted that
persona to others.
They used technical terms for how the aging process changed his eyesight which is VERY COMMON for a farsighted individual. Taking into consideration - aging and meds and cataracts as the presmyopia came into play he may not have even needed glasses at earlier stages in his life other than dependency.

They stated that for his age the script was remarkably mild...and that as a younger individual being farsighted would NOT have compromised his ability to use the site of a gun or rifle with accuracy.

I printed only the posts regarding the Glasses omitting references as to Cooper or the crime. I was advised I should not stress myself over the statements regarding GLASSES....because they were NOT true.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

Quote

As I have said I never thought everything I was saying would be analyzed over and over. The point was that Cooper did NOT ask for an amount above what Northwest was covered for.

Jo - again, this is not an attack, it is a statement of fact that may help you understand why some people respond the way they do to you (including some of my past responses).

Georger is right - you have uncovered some amazing things. But the problem (imo) is you also have a tendency to state a number of things as though they are fact, when they are not, including things that to be honest you can't possibly know. This makes it hard to sift through what is fact and what is your opinion/deduction etc.

Like I said - i can't do a proper search without the stamina to go through 100s of posts, but my recollection is that it was stated that the amount of $200K was chosen because that was the maximum under the insurance coverage. I think (my recollection may be more hazy here) that you said Duane worked for the company that insured Northwest at some stage as well?

You're trying to build a case for something here. Your statements WILL be analyzed as a result. You're not in court, but people will work on the same principles, even if subconsicously: credibility depends on the overall picture given. Arguments need to be consistent and backed up by facts if they are to provide any sort of "proof". If you only think something... maybe just say so without stating it as fact?

Now, a question from me - Snow's extract showed you said that the FBI had looked for people who had served in Vietnam. Do you have any more info on this?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

When you (377) and Jo got into this topic of 727's
being used for drops in Nam I sat by saying nothing, because I already knew Jo was right.

Have people lost their f*ing minds?
There is NO evidence that 727's were used for air drops in vietnam. Geez georger, you're admitting you're like Jo here.

There is evidence of a test drop, likely at Takhli.

There is no other evidence other than bullshit or speculation.

There is no evidence the 727 in question was ever in vietnam.

We talk about information moving around SE Asia, and now you're talking airdrops in Vietnam?

What evidence did you have when you were quiet?
You didn't have jack shit. If you have anything, let's hear it.

OH! Then I will bypass it.

Its not important. All I had anyway (as Ive said countless times) was "anecdotal".

Drops over Laos. You have tests at Takhli?
I thought you had outfitting of the 727 for
drops? You might try tests/flights out of Udorn
and U-Tapao. Udorn however was mainly a tactical
fighter squadron base. 366th etal.

G.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Drops over Laos. You have tests at Takhli?
I thought you had outfitting of the 727 for
drops? You might try tests/flights out of Udorn
and U-Tapao. Udorn however was mainly a tactical
fighter squadron base. 366th etal.

G.

it just felt like there was a succession of things where we losing our notion of what was fact vs spec. Sorry about that.

Leeker told us Takhli. But I've not seen a document on that.

U-Tapao is Thai. So that's not much different geographically than Takhli? So was Udorn.

How does either of them translate to Vietnam?

Are you saying Vietnam is a metaphor for Thailand/Laos/Vietnam/Cambodia?

[georger 268]

Thank you, unfortunately since I acquire information and file it away in 16 ft plus of documents I can't go back and find the info again. I know it is there, but NOT where. I acquired that information in 1996, but I was aware of it prior. but could never tell you when or how.

I only came here tonight to make a post regarding the GLASSES, but thought I would at least say Thank You regarding the posts I have read.

I spent time today with an Opthamologist and an Optician. Collectivly with 59 plus yrs in the business.

I took the script and pictures.

His prior record showed he was Far-sighted...as I had claimed.

No one took into consideration his high blood pressure meds (he was on these from 1973 until his death) and ageing of the eye. In the last few yrs he developed mild caractacs - hence the change in his eyesight in the last yrs.

They used some technical terms I will not try to repeat, but confimed what I told you guys before.

and not all of the time.

his scripts were never strong, it could be that he "preferred" to wear glasses for reasons only he knew...call it a comfort zone. In the system - his math and handwriting placed him in a less vunerable position within the system..the glasses promoted that
persona to others.
They used technical terms for how the aging process changed his eyesight which is VERY COMMON for a farsighted individual. Taking into consideration - aging and meds and cataracts as the presmyopia came into play he may not have even needed glasses at earlier stages in his life other than dependency.

They stated that for his age the script was remarkably mild...and that as a younger individual being farsighted would NOT have compromised his ability to use the site of a gun or rifle with accuracy.

I printed only the posts regarding the Glasses omitting references as to Cooper or the crime. I was advised I should not stress myself over the statements regarding GLASSES....because they were NOT true.

Will make this short 'n sweet.

The reason I brought up polio was because of your
statements 'people saw Duane as having a funny
walk or gate with one hip higher than the other'.

I thought that might have come from a flirtation
with polio during Duane's developmental years,
where knees and other joints (bones) sometimes are affected.

I thought you had also cited diabetes, once. I
did a search later but could find nothing except for
your citing Duane's friend in CA as having diabetes.
A Mr. E? Maybe I got confused with Duane. Im not
sure.

G.

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

Drops over Laos. You have tests at Takhli?
I thought you had outfitting of the 727 for
drops? You might try tests/flights out of Udorn
and U-Tapao. Udorn however was mainly a tactical
fighter squadron base. 366th etal.

G.

it just felt like there was a succession of things where we losing our notion of what was fact vs spec. Sorry about that.

Leeker told us Takhli. But I've not seen a document on that.

U-Tapao is Thai. So that's not much different geographically than Takhli? So was Udorn.

How does either of them translate to Vietnam?

Are you saying Vietnam is a metaphor for Thailand/Laos/Vietnam/Cambodia?

Yes. The whole Vietnam Theatre. Air America had
a large presence at all air bases in Thailand, as
you will see when you call up links. I found one
list of aircraft assigned to Air America at Udorn,
all 727's ... but no statement of use or flights.

Thailand was safe haven, more or less, compared
with all bases in the south. (So Vietnam)
The socalled "Northern Tactical bases".

G.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Jo - again, this is not an attack, it is a statement of fact that may help you understand why some people respond the way they do to you (including some of my past responses).

I did not take it as an attack.
=====================

Quote

Georger is right - you have uncovered some amazing things. But the problem (imo) is you also have a tendency to state a number of things as though they are fact, when they are not, including things that to be honest you can't possibly know. This makes it hard to sift through what is fact and what is your opinion/deduction etc.

Like Whuffo stating the Web site items that where incorrect. I am not a private eye nor a profession researcher - I throw things out there that have more validity than what most throw out...I did not know I was in a court of law and had to be 100% correct 100% of the time. Again - he took no more than the policy would cover reegardless of the AMT.
=======================

Quote

I think (my recollection may be more hazy here) that you said Duane worked for the company that insured Northwest at some stage as well?

I would later refute that statement - I thought Pyramid Life was a subsidiary of Global Indementity, but would later be told no - Never found any proof one way or the other. Both had offices in the same area and you will find that insurance agents share information.
=======================

Quote

You're trying to build a case for something here. Your statements WILL be analyzed as a result. You're not in court, but people will work on the same principles, even if subconsicously: credibility depends on the overall picture given. Arguments need to be consistent and backed up by facts if they are to provide any sort of "proof". If you only think something... maybe just say so without stating it as fact?

I have tried to do that - but remember - I am a human being and not on a witness stand. I am more interested in finding the TRUTH than any of you. I have to try to play with the same things you guys do, but I always go back the basics.
=====================

Quote

Now, a question from me - Snow's extract showed you said that the FBI had looked for people who had served in Vietnam. Do you have any more info on this?

What I do know is from some articles referencing this. What am I aware of that I have not mentioned nor know from any source other than the 17 yrs with Duane. Something that doesn't make sense.

There was a "China Man" Duane knew. (I don't know if he was Chinese or Japanese), but when his path crossed with Duane's during our marriage (he knew Duane as John). We were invited to his home one evening. Duane asked him if he still painted. He pointed to paintings on the wall - these painting if I remember right were watercolors and sketches. There were towers (like guard towers) and lots of gold colors.

I was NOT told what they were of - but from the conversation it was someplace that they both were at - because of the conversation which they kept brief. I now believe those towers to have been a prison or encampment, but not a regular prison. Duane asked about "TW's" first wife - TW said she had died - there were grown children from that first wife.
He had remarried and had a couple of Cookie Crumb Crushers in 1980.

I did not know TW's age - I am not good at judging age of oriental individuals. They were both very careful what was said in front of his wife and me. They were friends but in a strange way that I didn't comprehend...caring, knowing, secretive, protective - honor for one another. I have some conjectures about this, but that is all. TW died a few yrs ago, but I did not question his widow because she knew NO more than I did about the past of these two.

In 1980 if the wife was deceased and the kids grown that meant that Duane knew TW in the 60's. There was another man around the same time - (TW, this man and Duane knew each other) - the other name and the man who told me "If you want to be around to play with your Grandkids - destroy everything you have and do not look back - Duane knew people in HIGH places." He was nervous and didn't want to talk to me when I called him - this is all he told me in 1996.

I have conjectured and imagined all kinds of things from what transpired above...but it is only that Conjecture and guesses - Mafia, foreign families interred in prisons, ex-cons (I can assure you that TW was not an excon) - whatever it was came from a connection between 1962 and 1969...the yrs of John Collins. That is the one common thread.

These are the missing yrs - the yrs of TW and the man who warned me. What were these 3 men involved in that was secret? Others were mentioned. but I didn't have a reason to remember names. I remember what I see - like roling a camera back. I AM NOT saying these guys were involved in Cooper, but they shared secrets.

The FBI has refused to tell me if they knew who TW and man with the warning was and what Duane's connection to them was. Obviously the FBI never questioned them.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

Jo - again, this is not an attack, it is a statement of fact that may help you understand why some people respond the way they do to you (including some of my past responses).

I did not take it as an attack.
=====================

Quote

Georger is right - you have uncovered some amazing things. But the problem (imo) is you also have a tendency to state a number of things as though they are fact, when they are not, including things that to be honest you can't possibly know. This makes it hard to sift through what is fact and what is your opinion/deduction etc.

Like Whuffo stating the Web site items that where incorrect. I am not a private eye nor a profession researcher - I throw things out there that have more validity than what most throw out...I did not know I was in a court of law and had to be 100% correct 100% of the time. Again - he took no more than the policy would cover reegardless of the AMT.
=======================

Quote

I think (my recollection may be more hazy here) that you said Duane worked for the company that insured Northwest at some stage as well?

I would later refute that statement - I thought Pyramid Life was a subsidiary of Global Indementity, but would later be told no - Never found any proof one way or the other. Both had offices in the same area and you will find that insurance agents share information.
=======================

Quote

You're trying to build a case for something here. Your statements WILL be analyzed as a result. You're not in court, but people will work on the same principles, even if subconsicously: credibility depends on the overall picture given. Arguments need to be consistent and backed up by facts if they are to provide any sort of "proof". If you only think something... maybe just say so without stating it as fact?

I have tried to do that - but remember - I am a human being and not on a witness stand. I am more interested in finding the TRUTH than any of you. I have to try to play with the same things you guys do, but I always go back the basics.
=====================

Quote

Now, a question from me - Snow's extract showed you said that the FBI had looked for people who had served in Vietnam. Do you have any more info on this?

What I do know is from some articles referencing this. What am I aware of that I have not mentioned nor know from any source other than the 17 yrs with Duane. Something that doesn't make sense.

There was a "China Man" Duane knew. (I don't know if he was Chinese or Japanese), but when his path crossed with Duane's during our marriage (he knew Duane as John). We were invited to his home one evening. Duane asked him if he still painted. He pointed to paintings on the wall - these painting if I remember right were watercolors and sketches. There were towers (like guard towers) and lots of gold colors.

I was NOT told what they were of - but from the conversation it was someplace that they both were at - because of the conversation which they kept brief. I now believe those towers to have been a prison or encampment, but not a regular prison. Duane asked about "TW's" first wife - TW said she had died - there were grown children from that first wife.
He had remarried and had a couple of Cookie Crumb Crushers in 1980.

I did not know TW's age - I am not good at judging age of oriental individuals. They were both very careful what was said in front of his wife and me. They were friends but in a strange way that I didn't comprehend...caring, knowing, secretive, protective - honor for one another. I have some conjectures about this, but that is all. TW died a few yrs ago, but I did not question his widow because she knew NO more than I did about the past of these two.

In 1980 if the wife was deceased and the kids grown that meant that Duane knew TW in the 60's. There was another man around the same time - (TW, this man and Duane knew each other) - the other name and the man who told me "If you want to be around to play with your Grandkids - destroy everything you have and do not look back - Duane knew people in HIGH places." He was nervous and didn't want to talk to me when I called him - this is all he told me in 1996.

I have conjectured and imagined all kinds of things from what transpired above...but it is only that Conjecture and guesses - Mafia, foreign families interred in prisons, ex-cons (I can assure you that TW was not an excon) - whatever it was came from a connection between 1962 and 1969...the yrs of John Collins. That is the one common thread.

These are the missing yrs - the yrs of TW and the man who warned me. What were these 3 men involved in that was secret? Others were mentioned. but I didn't have a reason to remember names. I remember what I see - like roling a camera back. I AM NOT saying these guys were involved in Cooper, but they shared secrets.

The FBI has refused to tell me if they knew who TW and man with the warning was and what Duane's connection to them was. Obviously the FBI never questioned them.

Bear with me. This is exactly the kind of thing I
am talking about.

Why would the FBI talk to this TW? On suspicion
of being Oriental? The FBI generally handles only
criminal matters. The FBI is busy and usually does
not get involved in personal matters unless some
crime is involved and some Federal crime at that.
So why would the FBI follow up on a request from
an individual, they should look at TW or divulge
information about anyone to another ordinary
citizen?

It's a leap of logic that is difficult to follow ?

G.

[Orange1 0]

hm, i was hoping for more general info on FBI looking for Vietnam vets/civilians who had served there...wondering if they had made the same connections we have here.

Snow, just to back up what Georger said, the USAF and Air America used Thailand as a base for the surrounding countries. Remember they were not even supposed to be in Laos at all, whcih is why it is referred to as a "secret war".
I'm not sure, in terms of air activity, we need to differentiate between Thailand/Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia - it was all part of the same war.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

hm, i was hoping for more general info on FBI looking for Vietnam vets/civilians who had served there...wondering if they had made the same connections we have here.

Snow, just to back up what Georger said, the USAF and Air America used Thailand as a base for the surrounding countries. Remember they were not even supposed to be in Laos at all, whcih is why it is referred to as a "secret war".
I'm not sure, in terms of air activity, we need to differentiate between Thailand/Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia - it was all part of the same war.

nah. I was using SE Asia for that overall description. In the Air America full length video, they show how their bases covered a lot more than that. Phillipines and Japan say also. Clark Air Base was a major nexus.
Depends what you're looking for?

The US was flying stuff everywhere in SE Asia as part of the Vietnam effort. In reading all this stuff, it sometimes seems like Vietnam was an excuse to use all this new aviation technology.

Now if you think the grudge meant Cooper had to be more hands-on/closer to the action/nasty business, then yeah, Cambodia/Laos/Thailand/Vietnam are more specific.

-There are skills/knowledge theories (jumping, aviation)

-Grudge questions.

-military/non-military questions.

Oh, I've seen some pics of World Airways 727s flying guys to Vietnam, as part of the Military Air Transport. (World Airways). And I was reading a US embassy newsletter from June 1970 that was talking up the commercial growth of Air Vietnam. They had two 727's by 1969. Elsewhere that suggested Air Vietnam had some service ties with Air Asia (subsidiary of Air America) and Continental Air Services (CASI), although I don't think CIA was involved with Air Vietnam.

This is a great site:
http://www.air-america.net/index.htm

with a lot of scanned-in paper stuff from the Air America days. ....passports etc. Evidently there was an Air America stamp you could get for your visa page while you were in Thailand? See the right page of the first attach.

I've never seen so many Air America ID's and chits and logbooks and ... as I have at that link above.

And here's some telegrams guys got when Air America was trying to hire.

And here's some Air Vietnam stews back in the day.

Lots more at that site.
The world airways 727 was from a guy at Danang talking about how you arrived in Vietnam and left on MATS 727 flights.

A page of the secret Air America codes attached. (funny)

[Orange1 0]

Also remember those other links I posted - commercial airlines like Northweat and Pan AM were also flying soldiers to Nam using 727s. agree that is a great site.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

this is kind of off thread, but there's a great Air Vietnam page here.
http://www.geocities.com/airvietnamairlines

The page with a bunch of their 727 photos from the 60s/70s is here (15-20 pics)

http://www.geocities.com/airvietnamairlines/B727_photos.html

Tan Son Nhut was big for Air Vietnam 727s.

1974 727 hijack trivia from that page
AVN Boeing 727-121C S/N: XV-NJC on the taxiway at Ninoy Aquino International (MNL/RPLL)
Manila, Phillipines August 1968. This aircraft was destroyed September 15, 1974 near Phan Rang during a hi-jacking attempt.

[snowmman 3]

Just cause we like timetables around the interesting time period.

Note that the fares were all in US dollars. Most, not all though, under $20.

[georger 268]

Quote

Also remember those other links I posted - commercial airlines like Northweat and Pan AM were also flying soldiers to Nam using 727s. agree that is a great site.

a while back during the '727 as drop plane' discussion,
you posted photos of the roller skid assemblies? at the
rear end of a 727 ...... I searched back clear to 240
and cant find those photos. Any idea when and what
page you posted these? I confess Im really getting
lost here buried under so much peripheral "data".

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Also remember those other links I posted - commercial airlines like Northweat and Pan AM were also flying soldiers to Nam using 727s. agree that is a great site.

a while back during the '727 as drop plane' discussion,
you posted photos of the roller skid assemblies? at the
rear end of a 727 ...... I searched back clear to 240
and cant find those photos. Any idea when and what
page you posted these? I confess Im really getting
lost here buried under so much peripheral "data".

i haven't posted any photos - may have been snow?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Also remember those other links I posted - commercial airlines like Northweat and Pan AM were also flying soldiers to Nam using 727s. agree that is a great site.

a while back during the '727 as drop plane' discussion,
you posted photos of the roller skid assemblies? at the
rear end of a 727 ...... I searched back clear to 240
and cant find those photos. Any idea when and what
page you posted these? I confess Im really getting
lost here buried under so much peripheral "data".

I can repost.
I had posted some quick snaps I did, and then a couple of better frame grabs. I can do a specific frame grab if you like. Why interested in the pallet/roller setup? Anything specific?

With respect to "peripheral" data. What else is there? We covered all the stuff you might consider main long ago. I thought we're well into the random shotgun speculation phase. Unless there's a reason to revisit the main stuff?

Do we know what doesn't apply? or what does apply?

[georger 268]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Also remember those other links I posted - commercial airlines like Northweat and Pan AM were also flying soldiers to Nam using 727s. agree that is a great site.

a while back during the '727 as drop plane' discussion,
you posted photos of the roller skid assemblies? at the
rear end of a 727 ...... I searched back clear to 240
and cant find those photos. Any idea when and what
page you posted these? I confess Im really getting
lost here buried under so much peripheral "data".

I can repost.
I had posted some quick snaps I did, and then a couple of better frame grabs. I can do a specific frame grab if you like. Why interested in the pallet/roller setup? Anything specific?

With respect to "peripheral" data. What else is there? We covered all the stuff you might consider main long ago. I thought we're well into the random shotgun speculation phase. Unless there's a reason to revisit the main stuff?

Do we know what doesn't apply? or what does apply?

Just skip it.

My thought was: if there were tests & mods to the
727 for drops (especially in a war zone) very likely
that alone proves the 727 was used for drops. I
mean R&D is seldom done in a war zone without
there being some reason for it, some demand.
Things modified or developed in theatre tend to get
used..

If we are waiting for Tom's work I have a feeling
we are in for a long wait. Spring or even later and
his agenda has changed. By then this forum may
not even be here.

Ckret is gone. The bottom has fallen out. The last
dog left will be interpreted as the true story, and we
all know what that will be.

Then even Tom's work will fade into oblivion. I
guess the public gets what it wants.


G.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

I mean R&D is seldom done in a war zone without
there being some reason for it, some demand.
Things modified or developed in theatre tend to get
used..

It's reasonable to believe that Air America was developing capability to expand what it could "sell" to it's customers. Not everything is done in response to demand. Sometimes you have to create demand.

I think in other places, it was described that the 727s were problematic for Air America. They seemed a good idea at the time, but then they didn't really work out as part of their overall goals/needs.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Then even Tom's work will fade into oblivion. I
guess the public gets what it wants.

what public? There's just us. There was never any status/attention on any of this. There was Ckret going on TV and web sites, for whatever reason of his own. No one fell for that TV crap did they? (except maybe Sluggo :) )

As Ckret said, there is no FBI investigation. The FBI investigation was done.

What's weird is the FBI did a lot of work on Duane, and that was just 8 years ago? So it hasn't been that long since they did real work.

I think the real difference is that Duane was pre 9/11.
There's no reason to investigate Cooper, because it's just for bragging rights.
The FBI never really had a hard hijacking case. The one where they caught a guy recently after 30 years...they knew his name...but hadn't realized he returned from Cuba until someone Googled his name recently.

Now that the FBI is all supposed to be about terrorism and international stuff and CIA wannabes, there's no way someone can put up a Powerpoint that outlines a budget proposal for a Cooper investigation.

Now if Cooper had done some terrorism post hijack...murdered a few people...Now you might be able to sell a story inside the bureau and get some budget.

If Duane arrived at the FBI today, he would have gotten close to zero investigation.

[snowmman 3]

there was the guy in '98, hijacker, that was found after 30 years by immigration guys when he came back in the country. (Rolando Peterson-Coplin)

This guy Critton was more recent though. Guy googled him. Note the police computer came up dry. Google didn't. This was 2001

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04E7DE1538F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/F/Foreign%20Service



Traced on Internet, Teacher Is Charged In '71 Jet Hijacking

By C. J. CHIVERS
Published: September 11, 2001

Thirty years after a black-power revolutionary hijacked a jetliner from Ontario to Cuba and disappeared, Canadian and federal authorities matched the fingerprints he left on a can of ginger ale in the airplane with those of a teacher in Westchester County and charged the teacher with the crime yesterday.

The teacher, Patrick Dolan Critton, 54, of Mount Vernon, N.Y., was charged with kidnapping, armed robbery and extortion in United States District Court in Manhattan. He is facing extradition to Canada, where a detective had tracked him down through a simple Internet search.

The authorities said that Mr. Critton, a fugitive for 30 years, had been hiding in plain sight for the last seven years, working as a schoolteacher, using his real name, raising two sons and mentoring other children. Even one of the police officers who arrested him said he had the appearance and demeanor of a gentleman.

But as a young man, the authorities said, Patrick Dolan Critton was a revolutionary with a taste for the most daring of crimes.

By 1971, when he was 24, he was wanted by the New York City police on charges that he participated in a bank robbery that led to a frantic gun battle with the police, and that he had worked in a covert explosives factory on the Lower East Side, where the police said he made pipe bombs with other members of a black liberation group, the Republic of New Africa.

Because of those charges, the police said, he fled to Canada. And on the day after Christmas in 1971, according to court papers, he boarded an Air Canada DC-9 in Thunder Bay, Ontario, on a flight to Toronto, produced a pistol and a grenade and successfully hijacked the jet. In Toronto, the papers say, he released the passengers and forced the crew to fly him to Havana -- never to be heard from again, until his case was reopened in earnest in June.

Superintendent Edward Toye of the Peel Regional Police in Ontario said that a new unit in the department had been investigating cold cases. Detective Donald Jorgensen, an investigator assigned to the unit, pulled out the 1971 hijacking file. ''He wanted to know what was the oldest case we had, and this was it,'' Superintendent Toye said.

Detective Jorgensen began his work with the broadest and most basic type of search: he typed the words Patrick Critton into an Internet search engine. Almost instantly, he located a March 2001 newspaper clipping in The Journal-News of Westchester County in which Patrick Critton was mentioned in an article about mentoring black youth.

The article said that Mr. Critton was the director of the Community School Initiative in Mount Vernon.

The Canadian authorities contacted the F.B.I.-N.Y.P.D. Joint Terrorist Task Force, and soon Mr. Critton was under surveillance in New York, said Inspector Charles J. Wells, commander of the New York Police Department's Special Investigations Division.

Inspector Wells said investigators quickly noticed that they seemed to have found a perfect fit. They said the Mr. Critton who was wanted for the hijacking had briefly been a public-school teacher in Brooklyn after graduating from Hunter College in 1969, and that the Mr. Critton in Mount Vernon was working as a summer schoolteacher at the A. B. Davis Middle School there.

Their heights also seemed to match: Mr. Critton in Mount Vernon appeared to be about 5 feet 4, just like the vanished hijacker.

Moreover, investigators soon found a fingerprint card from 1994 that Mr. Critton submitted when he applied to be a per diem teacher in Brooklyn, and it matched the fingerprint card from 1969, when a man with the same name first applied to be a New York City schoolteacher.

But the Canadian authorities wanted a better identification, Inspector Wells said, so New York detectives resorted to a ruse.

After staking out Mr. Critton's home, he said, investigators knew the route he took on his weekday walk from his apartment to his summer teaching job at the middle school. On Aug. 15, detectives posted themselves along the route, putting up fliers of a missing girl from the Bronx. When Mr. Critton walked by him that morning, a detective handed him a photograph.



http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22575754_ITM
Unusual suspect: thirty years after he robbed a bank and hijacked a plane to Cuba, Patrick Critton was finally busted. The cops expected a hardened criminal. The man they met came as a total surprise. (Crime).

DETECTIVE DONALD JORGENSEN IS 40 years old, a father of two and a 15-year veteran with the Peel Regional Police. Thickly built, he has a ruddy, healthy complexion, and blond hair so tightly cropped a pinkish hue shows through. Given the sort of people he has to deal with, Jorgensen is amazingly congenial: when you first meet him, he projects the bonhomie of a contented bulldog.

In May of 2001, while still a constable, he returned to 22 Division in Peel after having been on loan to the homicide department for the previous seven months. He was handed a dossier of cases with outstanding arrest warrants. Buried in the pile was the oldest such case in Peel's history: on December 26, 1971, a New Yorker named Patrick Critton had boarded a Toronto-bound DC-9 in Thunder Bay, which he then hijacked to Havana. Nearly 30 years later, Critton was still at large.

Jorgensen ran Critton's name through the Canadian Police Information Computer, or CPIC, and came up dry. He then put it through the American equivalent, known as NCIC. Nothing. He did a driver's licence check in every province and state and still had no luck.

Finally, he typed Critton's name into the search engine Google. He was not particularly hopeful: given the undiscriminating nature of the Web, he knew he'd most likely be presented with hundreds, if not thousands, of useless entries. It's this tendency that ordinarily makes the Internet all but useless for police work. Had he entered his own name, for example, he would have gotten no less than 25,000 entries. On the first page alone, he would have found references to Donald Jorgensen the animal neonatologist, Donald Jorgensen the North Dakota district Supreme Court judge and Donald Jorgensen the '40s-era baseball player. For this reason, he was completely astounded when he typed in the name Patrick Critton and was presented with one entry, and one entry only.
...

[snowmman 3]

Critton only got sentenced to 5 years in 2002.
So he must be out already. (actually the article says he would have been released in a year...pretty cheap!)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2002/06/12/critton020612.html

If Cooper was caught today (if alive), heck he might not get any sentence? just parole.

Funny that a fugitive for a 30 year old hijacking, with other crimes too, just got 5 years.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E1D8143CF935A25755C0A9649C8B63

Armed with a handgun and a grenade, he released all passengers in Toronto and forced the crew to drop him in Havana. It was the only successful hijacking in Canadian history, and there were no injuries or reports of violence.
...
Mr. Critton pleaded guilty to all charges, Mr. Irving said, adding that the judge showed leniency in sentencing because he released the passengers and did not mistreat the crew. ''The crew said that he was joking with them and showing them pictures of his children,'' he said.

[377 22]

Quote

Evidently this was only used by Mexicana airline because of the high, hot air of Mexico City.

There's a test video, I think made around 1970 on youtube here, of a rocket assisted take off.
3 rockets on each wing. They fire in sequence at 10 sec intervals.

Pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7LErwBNobU
(it's a video of something playing on a tv)

I'm always curious if I can find something 377 hasn't seen before...?

The RATO bottles evidently supplied 13,000 lbs of extra thrust for emergencies and take-off.

Mexico City is at 7000 ft.

You can Google for stuff on this, there are plenty of other references, so it's not b.s.? I didn't find a good still of a Mexicana plane though.

That Mexicana stuff is amazing. I had no idea. Snow finds the most obscure stuff. I would never bet against him even on an aviation history matter.

The craziest rocket assisted aircraft setup I ever saw was that deal where they modified a C 130 with surplus ASROC rocket motors (some mounted perpendicular to the wing plane!!) to try to turn it into a semi VTOL airplane. This was intended to be a rescue ship for the Iran US embassy hostages. They thought it could land in the soccer stadium In Tehran and take off from it with the hostages aboard. It had a SPECTACULAR mishap during a landing test, all well documented on you tube.

Mexico City is a killer airport on a hot day. Density altitude can trap you if you are heavily loaded and lose an engine or cannot get your landing gear retracted. A surplus Boeing C 97 had that problem there in the 1980s and crashed killing over 50.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

Georger stated:

Quote

Why would the FBI talk to this TW? On suspicion
of being Oriental? The FBI generally handles only
criminal matters. The FBI is busy and usually does
not get involved in personal matters unless some
crime is involved and some Federal crime at that.
So why would the FBI follow up on a request from
an individual, they should look at TW or divulge
information about anyone to another ordinary
citizen?

It's a leap of logic that is difficult to follow ?

This mentality is exactly why they don't know who Cooper was. If they investigated Weber and it was completed in 1998 as the FBI has erroneously stated (I have PROOF that they FBI didn't know BEANS about Duane Weber in 1998) they would know who and what TW is or was.

Look at where you guys have gone - exactly where I told the FBI to look - for clues (1962 thru 1969). If you guys think the FBI did their job - then all of you need to stop seeking answers in the direction you are going.

Why DO any of YOU think I have repeated that little story about TW and the other man over the yrs and in this forum? The encampment and the photos - Why don't you check how many times I have told it? I tell it everytime there is an opening. I do not know TW's origin and remember if I theorize I loose credibility.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[SKYWHUFFO 1]

WELL, i have been watching this thread since the first page of the old thread. As a jumper with almost 4000 jumps and a history buff i found it amusing to watch and chime in with questions now and then.
Well, now i am just finding it a bit annoying now watching. I am going to start with Jo- You need to remember a few old sayings, never bite the hand that feeds you and never burn a bridge. WAKE UP! you snap almost have two personalities, one that wants to yell "Look at where you guys have gone - exactly where I told the FBI to look - for clues (1962 thru 1969). If you guys think the FBI did their job - then all of you need to stop seeking answers in the direction you are going" or YOU GUYS NEED TO LOOK, or the FBI needs to do this or that. Clue in on what sombody else wrote when they said to the FBI this is not an active case. to explain that in simple terms nobody is actively investigating this case. CKRET did this pretty much as a side hobby. You burned your bridge along ago with the FBI with all the critical harsh remarks you make to and about them. Why would they want to listen to you when all you do is bitch about them and badmouth them. This exactly why several people that could have been valueable to the forum such as CKRET, Sluggo, PLF are gone, you cant bitch and demand from sombody as you do then expect then to do your bidding.

Snow, Georger, 377- you three can find a needle in a haystack on the net. but somtimes just ignore jo's babblings and bring up things like you do. work with CKRET even if it's off line, Ckret has more cards in his hand and showing a good poker face if he tips his hand more it may give you somthing to complete the puzzle. Keep it on the subject please. a teacher from canada going to cuba?????? I think i missed the significance.

I went head to head with one of my own (a fellow jumper) who happened to be sombody who played a significant role in where skydiving is today as a sport. He in some ways was right in others wrong. You don't realize the info sources who have posted here, Jim West and his wife, Airtwardo, and several others these folks have so much knowlege on our world it's scarey and were jumping when this happened. I guess what i am saying is drop the damn cigerettes and tie clasp Jo they are gone accept it and leave it alone. Find the new angles and if you are going want sombody to work on them don't give half info or talk in riddles. It does no good if you don't share info you have and expect others to share with you. I want to see this thead go somewhere this year and find new info like sluggo did last year. Have a great new year folks and try to understand what i mean cause there is a big difference in reading and comphrending. and lastly, one of the things jumpers laugh at the most is when non jumpers use our terminology and traditions to try to sound intellegent. There is meaning on the words Whuffo or blue skies, etc you don't understand. My screen name is making fun of people like the one tandem wonders out there who after a tandem jump think they are a skydiver.
Don't take this as a bashing Its not. I just want to redirect where this form is going( down hill and quade about to pull the plug),
Thanks
D

[skyjack71 0]

Skywhuffo state:

Quote

I am going to start with Jo- You need to remember a few old sayings, never bite the hand that feeds you and never burn a bridge. WAKE UP! you snap almost have two personalities, one that wants to yell "Look at where you guys have gone - exactly where I told the FBI to look - for clues (1962 thru 1969). If you guys think the FBI did their job - then all of you need to stop seeking answers in the direction you are going" or YOU GUYS NEED TO LOOK.

If I state anymore than to tell them to look at the direction they are going in - if I state a theory or why I am interested in Duane's relationship with TW or the other man - then later on I am quoted as stating this conjecture was a true statement made by me. Since I know little about that kind of subject - Laos and the 60's -I just keep on hoping that someone might stumble on to what I have suspected and then I can relate part of a conversation I over heard in those yrs. Until then the conversation means nothing.
==================


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

Clue in on what sombody else wrote when they said to the FBI this is not an active case. to explain that in simple terms nobody is actively investigating this case. CKRET did this pretty much as a side hobby. You burned your bridge along ago with the FBI with all the critical harsh remarks you make to and about them.

Why shouldn't I feel harsh about the FBI - in March of 2000 Agent Ralph Hope lied to me on the phone or they had NOT investigated Duane...he did not know Duane had been in Mc Neil or the Army. The FBI repeatedly puts out statements that Duane was investigated and ruled out in 1998. Yet in 2000 an FBI agent made these statements to me and I was holding government documents in my hands proving otherwise. Can I prove this? You betcha!.
====================


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

This exactly why several people that could have been valueable to the forum such as CKRET, Sluggo, PLF are gone, you cant bitch and demand from sombody as you do then expect then to do your bidding.

Not Correct:

CKRET kept going on about that 1998 FBI statement and recently the public relations of the FBI also used the 1998 statement made by the FBI - DO I have to PROVE that the FBI had not investigated Duane to any great extent in 1998? somethings cannot be altered.
=========================


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

Snow, Georger, 377- you three can find a needle in a haystack on the net. but somtimes just ignore jo's babblings and bring up things like you do. work with CKRET even if it's off line, Ckret has more cards in his hand and showing a good poker face if he tips his hand more it may give you somthing to complete the puzzle

CKRET was creating Myths himself by using his opinions - to distort the facts. Because something is stated by an FBI agent does not mean it is true - I am speaking of information regarding the crime and the files....I was able to correct some of his errors, which he kindly admitted making. When a FBI agent is posting an opinion - it should have been stated as an opinion or theory - JUST, as I have been asked to do.

Safecrack is not here because he was tired of the battle and NOT because of me. He did a lot of unappreciated research at his own expense - he does have a family and a demanding job. He came to this forum in the beginning because he learned I was posting here - he had talked with me over the prior yrs. His interest in this case is long standing and he is entirely unbiased in his opinions as he derives them from research and facts.

Sluggo - yes, recently I came down on him in the forum because he stated somethings as facts derived from conversations between he and I which were not correct. I am talking specific data. I did not correct him in the forum, but asked him to make the corrections himself. He has not done so as he is in the middle of a move and doing a new job.
=======================


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

You don't realize the info sources who have posted here, Jim West and his wife, Airtwardo, and several others these folks have so much knowlege on our world it's scarey and were jumping when this happened. I guess what i am saying is drop the damn cigerettes and tie clasp Jo they are gone accept it and leave it alone. Find the new angles and if you are going want sombody to work on them don't give half info or talk in riddles. It does no good if you don't share info you have and expect others to share with you

If I throw out or elaborate on what I think in regards to somethings - they come back 8 out of 10 times as I stated this or that as fact...when I was working a theory. This is why sometimes I seem to talk in riddles. Such as what I know or parts of conversations I over heard don't make sense to me - so I would have to theorize AND you know how that comes back to me
====================.


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

I want to see this thead go somewhere this year and find new info like sluggo did last year.

Which is why I try only to pipe in when someone states something I want to know more on or to explain myself - such as in regards to your post.
====================


Skywhuffo states:

Quote

I just want to redirect where this form is going( down hill and quade about to pull the plug).

Note: From JO
None of us want to see the plug pulled which is why (along with my health) I have back off to a great extent - except to say, Thank You and make corrections where it applies to myself or Duane. The one thing that CAUSES me to have to post is the FBI 1998 statement. That ONE really ruffles my feathers.


NOTE of INTEREST;
If you are saying forget the tie and the butts - WHY? Are the butts really lost? Obviously the DNA on the tie was compromised if they lost the butts. This would be one of the logic statements others beside myself put out there. WHY does the FBI want the paper sack, the tie and the butts TO GO AWAY.

SOMETHING NEW - How would you guys like to compare a picture of a Federal employee who was on the 727 when it was HiJacked with one of the sketches of Cooper? This man was sitting near Cooper prior to being moved forward. I might not be able to get permission to do this - but it sure explains why NO ONE seems to be able to give an good description of Cooper.

Beginning to think there were several Coopers on that plane.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber