DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 784]

2 hours ago, lxchilton said:

Any dictionary definition of 'path' is going to feature, as the second or third meaning, something along the lines of "the direction an object is traveling." 

It doesn't matter though because this isn't about debate or discussion, it's about noise and deflection. 

Like all definitions you need context...  the context here is clear, I have explained it and even resorted to a crude image....  

It isn't noise and deflection, it is an absurd theory that doesn't fit the evidence from a person who can't understand what a plane's path is.. there is no discussion with people who can't understand a simple definition.

The plane could have taken many many path's to Reno that didn't go where they ultimately went..  

[lxchilton 9]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

G, it is very clear in this context that the path is the course for the plane,,, of which there are dozens and dozens possible to Reno...

Kamkisky's theory is that there was ONLY ONE path that the plane could take,,, and Cooper knew it so he didn't demand. indicate or confirm one.. THIS IS COMPLETE BS, there is NOT one path,,, in fact the one they took was the worst one because it went over populated areas..

There are other problems,,, Cooper knew the weather was bad and visibility poor, he had no expectation that he could see the terrain, lights or markers. So, he didn't know the path they would take and didn't know if he would be able to see the ground to determine his position. That indicates is LZ was Ad Hoc,, 

 

The existence of "dozens and dozens" of paths doesn't really matter if it is conceivable that Cooper had only planned as far as getting the plane headed south after taking off from Seattle.

The fact that his 10,000ft altitude ends up getting them on v23 means that he might have surmised that that was the route they would take, but it's not clear that he knew it or not.

Cooper may have known the weather would be bad, but the crew saw the lights so Cooper would have been able to see them too. It's conceivable that that was his plan about when to jump and he did so. 

Cooper most certainly did not say "I will land here at this exact spot," but he could have said "I will jump well before Portland where there are lights so I know I am not in the middle of a forest and can hoof it out of there without being caught in a tree, etc."

This is not the only set of options, but I can't see any real reasoning behind why this set of options is bad other than that you are sure it was wrong, mainly because of word choice. 

[lxchilton 9]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

Like all definitions you need context...  the context here is clear, I have explained it and even resorted to a crude image....  

It isn't noise and deflection, it is an absurd theory that doesn't fit the evidence from a person who can't understand what a plane's path is.. there is no discussion with people who can't understand a simple definition.

The plane could have taken many many path's to Reno that didn't go where they ultimately went..  

If that's the case, that engineering the plane heading south from Seattle is a fools errand because it could have gone 100 different ways, I would suggest that Cooper was overconfident in his ability to make the plane head the direction he wanted, not that it suggests anything about what his original plan was.

Cooper was dumb about some things and his overconfidence here could be another example of being dumb but also very lucky. 

[FLYJACK 784]

2 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

The existence of "dozens and dozens" of paths doesn't really matter if it is conceivable that Cooper had only planned as far as getting the plane headed south after taking off from Seattle.

The fact that his 10,000ft altitude ends up getting them on v23 means that he might have surmised that that was the route they would take, but it's not clear that he knew it or not.

Cooper may have known the weather would be bad, but the crew saw the lights so Cooper would have been able to see them too. It's conceivable that that was his plan about when to jump and he did so. 

Cooper most certainly did not say "I will land here at this exact spot," but he could have said "I will jump well before Portland where there are lights so I know I am not in the middle of a forest and can hoof it out of there without being caught in a tree, etc."

This is not the only set of options, but I can't see any real reasoning behind why this set of options is bad other than that you are sure it was wrong, mainly because of word choice. 

So, this is actually a completely different argument...  and has its own problems..

I don't have the patience to unwind those problems..

I suggest you guys scrap your theories and start from scratch and build a new one that actually fits within the evidence.

You guys are wasting time with this nonsense.

 

[FLYJACK 784]

4 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

If that's the case, that engineering the plane heading south from Seattle is a fools errand because it could have gone 100 different ways, I would suggest that Cooper was overconfident in his ability to make the plane head the direction he wanted, not that it suggests anything about what his original plan was.

Cooper was dumb about some things and his overconfidence here could be another example of being dumb but also very lucky. 

Cooper was not dumb.. his original plan was not to just jump randomly in the PNW blindly... 

It only tells us one thing,, his original plan was different.. that original plan is debatable,,, but my theory fits the evidence and explains things that don't make sense otherwise..

Why he demanded Mexico.

Why he got the range wrong.

Why he rejected large airports and changed his demands.

Why he did not indicate or confirm a path.

Why he jumped random and blind in the PNW.

 

My theory is the best I can think of.... 

Can anybody think of a better one?? Go for it..

 

 

[olemisscub 580]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Are you including Soderlind in this 'uncertainty' ?  What is the basis for the NWA search map ?

Are you saying no one connected oscillations and the pressure events until after the plane had landed at Reno ? 

What accounts for the fact H was already in a helo headed north to search near Merwin-Longview before 305 had even landed at Reno ?

Yes, I'm including Soderlind. The NWA search map, etc., was made once they realized that the pressure bump/oscillations were Cooper jumping. 

We have no evidence that anyone was acting in real time under the belief that the 8:11 call was the hijacker jumping.

Himmy was in a helo trying to CHASE 305, but they gave up. 

[FLYJACK 784]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Yes, he may have said something privately to his crewmates, but I doubt that he notified ATC or anyone else about it. This belief is based on a few reasons.

First, we have a full interview with Rat on Nov 30th where he said the crew had no indication Cooper was gone until landing in Reno. 

Second, nothing is written by the NWA note takers about the HJ possibly jumping. The pilots saying that they think the hijacker just jumped is something that they all 100% would have written down. So we can pretty much guarantee that Rat didn't say anything to NWA about their belief that the HJ just jumped. Would he have said something to ATC but NOT to his bosses about this? Nah. Lowenthal's 4:11 timestamp is circled but that must surely be something done after the fact since there is no discussion about it.

Third, the behavior of everyone AFTER the oscillations call. None of the crew nor NWA nor ATC are behaving in a way that is commiserate with a belief that the HJ had jumped. There isn't any language like "if he is still back there". There are no "ifs" and no discussion about going in the back to check or anything like that. If Rat had planted the seed that the oscillations were from Cooper jumping, then there certainly would have been some discussion about "if" he was still in the back. 

Fourth, if that seed was planted right after Cooper jumped, then law enforcement would have been notified in Clark and Cowlitz counties. The FBI would have been notified as well, yet we don't see that anywhere in the files. 

What it ultimately boils down to for me is that we don't see a single shred of evidence from anyone acting in real time from 8:11 to 11:02 that would make us think that they had any notion whatsoever that Cooper jumped at 8:11.

The copycat hijackings provide us with a view of what real time law enforcement action is like after pilots report a belief that the hijacker jumped. We don't have that with Cooper. 

I have no doubt that they likely discussed it amongst themselves, but he must have morphed what he said privately over time into notifying ATC. I don't know.  

He could have said it to Soderlind or during that dead air time..

I realize there is no proof but I believe Rat is the last person to lie or exaggerate.

I just can't see him make that up completely... he must have said it or something close..

[lxchilton 9]

21 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper was not dumb.. his original plan was not to just jump randomly in the PNW blindly... 

It only tells us one thing,, his original plan was different.. that original plan is debatable,,, but my theory fits the evidence and explains things that don't make sense otherwise..

Why he demanded Mexico.

Why he got the range wrong.

Why he rejected large airports and changed his demands.

Why he did not indicate or confirm a path.

Why he jumped random and blind in the PNW.

 

My theory is the best I can think of.... 

Can anybody think of a better one?? Go for it..

 

 

I don't think Cooper was dumb overall, but he certainly had a lack of knowledge when it came to parts of his hijacking.

If we think of a plan as going from A to Z, you can still arrive at Z if the letters in the middle end up getting changed, switched around, or altered in some way. 

That's basic, but it is a simplification of the plan to illustrate the point. 

To the specific points above where there are no answers allowed other than those you have provided:

Why he demanded Mexico.

The longer the plane is in the air the greater the area that needs to be searched, provided they don't know where he jumps out. It also muddies the reasoning behind his hijacking; shades of hijackers who want to go to Cuba. (I'm not hung up on that, it's just a tertiary possibility.

Why he got the range wrong.

The flight from SEA to MEX is roughly 200 miles shorter than the maximum range of a 727-100 at the time. Cooper looked that up/saw it/asked about it and then thought it would apply, but didn't think about or understand the range issues caused by flying low and dirty. This is something he appears to have been "dumb" about.

Why he rejected large airports and changed his demands.

I can think of a million reasons he didn't want to head towards California--I'd argue that he's from there and doesn't want the FBI immediately involved near where he lived. That's some real head canon stuff though so I won't go there now. Mostly I think he wants them to think he will be on the plane when it lands; feigned concern about the place being too busy, etc.

Why he did not indicate or confirm a path.

I'm torn between him knowing that the 10,000ft altitude is going to actually going to define a specific enough path (I refuse to change this word, just be flexible) towards Portland, or if he just thought that having a destination to the south would get him there. I am slightly inclined to think he has a bit of ignorance in this department since he is not specific. 

Why he jumped random and blind in the PNW.

I don't think he did. His goal--the 'Z' in this hijack--was to jump when he saw the first light of civilization north of Portland. 

For the most part this is just rehashing what we have all been harping about for so long; I reiterate it because it's a valid set of answers to the questions we all have about the vagaries of the case. My own view is that these are simpler explanations than yours, but yours might have merit as well. The "why" portion of your argument is lacking, however, despite the instance on the above answers "ignoring evidence."

[FLYJACK 784]

1 minute ago, lxchilton said:

I don't think Cooper was dumb overall, but he certainly had a lack of knowledge when it came to parts of his hijacking.

If we think of a plan as going from A to Z, you can still arrive at Z if the letters in the middle end up getting changed, switched around, or altered in some way. 

That's basic, but it is a simplification of the plan to illustrate the point. 

To the specific points above where there are no answers allowed other than those you have provided:

Why he demanded Mexico.

The longer the plane is in the air the greater the area that needs to be searched, provided they don't know where he jumps out. It also muddies the reasoning behind his hijacking; shades of hijackers who want to go to Cuba. (I'm not hung up on that, it's just a tertiary possibility.

Why he got the range wrong.

The flight from SEA to MEX is roughly 200 miles shorter than the maximum range of a 727-100 at the time. Cooper looked that up/saw it/asked about it and then thought it would apply, but didn't think about or understand the range issues caused by flying low and dirty. This is something he appears to have been "dumb" about.

Why he rejected large airports and changed his demands.

I can think of a million reasons he didn't want to head towards California--I'd argue that he's from there and doesn't want the FBI immediately involved near where he lived. That's some real head canon stuff though so I won't go there now. Mostly I think he wants them to think he will be on the plane when it lands; feigned concern about the place being too busy, etc.

Why he did not indicate or confirm a path.

I'm torn between him knowing that the 10,000ft altitude is going to actually going to define a specific enough path (I refuse to change this word, just be flexible) towards Portland, or if he just thought that having a destination to the south would get him there. I am slightly inclined to think he has a bit of ignorance in this department since he is not specific. 

Why he jumped random and blind in the PNW.

I don't think he did. His goal--the 'Z' in this hijack--was to jump when he saw the first light of civilization north of Portland. 

For the most part this is just rehashing what we have all been harping about for so long; I reiterate it because it's a valid set of answers to the questions we all have about the vagaries of the case. My own view is that these are simpler explanations than yours, but yours might have merit as well. The "why" portion of your argument is lacking, however, despite the instance on the above answers "ignoring evidence."

 

All made up assumptions,, no facts.. it isn't a valid set of answers.. you can make up any wild speculation for any scenario.. that doesn't make a good theory or plausible.

Mexico demand...  You are making a guess with zero evidence. This idea has been around so long in this case it has become almost a fact,,, it isn't, it is just made up.

The range.. You have this messed up, He demanded Mex City as a target but the plane could land in Mex to refuel not in the US... then you make a poor assumption that Cooper was dumb about range... Cooper either got the range wrong or his demand was misunderstood,, He must have believed the plane could have made it to Mexico because the demand would have been rejected..  He demonstrated aviation and refuelling knowledge so he was not dumb,, most likely his demand was misunderstood and he did not intend for the plane to fly dirty from takeoff initially.

Confirm a Path... He did not confirm a path or have an expectation to see the terrain or ground...   The plane could have taken many path's to Reno,, Cooper's LZ was Ad Hoc,,   You assume again with no evidence that he was "ignorant"..

Jumping Blind... this is a disaster,, He had no expectation to fly the path to Portland. In fact Portland was the worst path going over a populated area..

Seems your explanation for these things is Cooper must have been dumb or ignorant.. and NO it is not simpler,, it doesn't fit the evidence and claiming Cooper was dumb/ignorant is made up..

 

Mine is..  

His first plan was to give specific path instructions in the air and jump somewhere south of the US border.

His fly dirty demand was slightly misunderstood going through Tina and crew.. limiting range.

A US stop was being negotiated and he rejected large airports because he was still considering being on the plane.

When Reno was settled on to refuel..  He decided to wing it and just jump before the plane landed in Reno and jumped blind.. 

His ultimate LZ was Ad Hoc..  that is one of reasons this case has been so difficult.

 

Really simple. 

 

 

[FLYJACK 784]

The problem some of you guys are having is clear..

A theory or hypothesis is presented to explain something,, it has to contain assumptions or it would be a fact already.. It gets tested against evidence.. not more assumptions, you can make up anything out of thin air...  like Cooper landed 20 miles away from his jump buried the money next to a River the night of the hijacking then returned months later and dropped a bundle..  

Assumptions need to be plausible, likely and fit in the evidence.

The better a theory fits within the evidence and explains some unexplained issues the better it is,, 

Your theories and variations of Cooper's LZ jump do not fit the evidence and rely on poor assumptions. 

There is no indication Cooper was dumb, ignorant or incompetent..

 

He made three similar decisions..

He did not reject the wrong rigs.. he adapted

He did not reject the wrong money bag.. he adapted

He did not reject the refuelling in the US.. he adapted

[lxchilton 9]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

All made up assumptions,, no facts.. it isn't a valid set of answers.. you can make up any wild speculation for any scenario.. that doesn't make a good theory or plausible.

Mexico demand...  You are making a guess with zero evidence. This idea has been around so long in this case it has become almost a fact,,, it isn't, it is just made up.

The range.. You have this messed up, He demanded Mex City as a target but the plane could land in Mex to refuel not in the US... then you make a poor assumption that Cooper was dumb about range... Cooper either got the range wrong or his demand was misunderstood,, He must have believed the plane could have made it to Mexico because the demand would have been rejected..  He demonstrated aviation and refuelling knowledge so he was not dumb,, most likely his demand was misunderstood and he did not intend for the plane to fly dirty from takeoff initially.

Confirm a Path... He did not confirm a path or have an expectation to see the terrain or ground...   The plane could have taken many path's to Reno,, Cooper's LZ was Ad Hoc,,   You assume again with no evidence that he was "ignorant"..

Jumping Blind... this is a disaster,, He had no expectation to fly the path to Portland. In fact Portland was the worst path going over a populated area..

Seems your explanation for these things is Cooper must have been dumb or ignorant.. and NO it is not simpler,, it doesn't fit the evidence and claiming Cooper was dumb/ignorant is made up..

 

Mine is..  

His first plan was to give specific path instructions in the air and jump somewhere south of the US border.

His fly dirty demand was slightly misunderstood going through Tina and crew.. limiting range.

A US stop was being negotiated and he rejected large airports because he was still considering being on the plane.

When Reno was settled on to refuel..  He decided to wing it and just jump before the plane landed in Reno and jumped blind.. 

His ultimate LZ was Ad Hoc..  that is one of reasons this case has been so difficult.

 

Really simple. 

 

 

Hey look that is a simple list of your thoughts!

I have trouble with two of the items you mention, the first is him putting up no fuss about the range thing if it was ever a consideration--if they misunderstood this and all of a sudden told him they can't make it because of the configuration would he not have said "no, that's not what I mean, what the hell is wrong with you?"

The second is randomly deciding to jump out--if everything else is seemingly so ordered and supported by evidence, why this one incredibly out of left field choice?

I'm not arguing the other stuff above; you've chosen a set of interpretations that are evidence backed and no others are.

[lxchilton 9]

58 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The problem some of you guys are having is clear..

A theory or hypothesis is presented to explain something,, it has to contain assumptions or it would be a fact already.. It gets tested against evidence.. not more assumptions, you can make up anything out of thin air...  like Cooper landed 20 miles away from his jump buried the money next to a River the night of the hijacking then returned months later and dropped a bundle..  

Assumptions need to be plausible, likely and fit in the evidence.

The better a theory fits within the evidence and explains some unexplained issues the better it is,, 

Your theories and variations of Cooper's LZ jump do not fit the evidence and rely on poor assumptions. 

There is no indication Cooper was dumb, ignorant or incompetent..

 

He made three similar decisions..

He did not reject the wrong rigs.. he adapted

He did not reject the wrong money bag.. he adapted

He did not reject the refuelling in the US.. he adapted

I don't think Cooper was an idiot, but I think he was master of some portions of the hijacking and just ambitious, confident, driven, adaptive, and lucky about others. 

He knew parachutes. I don't think anything about that worried him in terms of getting on the ground. 

Is his ability to adapt to certain changes in the plans related to just that quality in him or did he make assumptions and when those assumptions were proven to be in error?

[FLYJACK 784]

39 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

Hey look that is a simple list of your thoughts!

I have trouble with two of the items you mention, the first is him putting up no fuss about the range thing if it was ever a consideration--if they misunderstood this and all of a sudden told him they can't make it because of the configuration would he not have said "no, that's not what I mean, what the hell is wrong with you?"

The second is randomly deciding to jump out--if everything else is seemingly so ordered and supported by evidence, why this one incredibly out of left field choice?

I'm not arguing the other stuff above; you've chosen a set of interpretations that are evidence backed and no others are.

The dialogue between the crew and Cooper isn't clear about why the limited range..

Like I said Cooper had a pattern,, he didn't push back on the money bag or parachutes either...  there is no evidence he knew they misunderstood his configuration.

Jumping before landing in Reno isn't a random choice, he just felt he had to jump before Reno, he didn't want the plane landing in the US for a reason,,  This is speculation but maybe he thought the range issue and Reno was a setup and they were going to storm the plane on the ground.. we don't know what was in his head. Remember, he had a bomb if fake he was dead, if real he was dead if they stormed the plane. He felt his better option was to just jump as soon as feasible and wherever the plane was..

This is the best theory I can come up with, if anybody can do better go for it..

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 9]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

The dialogue between the crew and Cooper isn't clear about why the limited range..

Like I said Cooper had a pattern,, he didn't push back on the money bag or parachutes either...  there is no evidence he knew they misunderstood his configuration.

Jumping before landing in Reno isn't a random choice, he just felt he had to jump before Reno, he didn't want the plane landing in the US for a reason,,  This is speculation but maybe he thought the range issue and Reno was a setup and they were going to storm the plane on the ground.. we don't know what was in his head. Remember, he had a bomb if fake he was dead, if real he was dead if they stormed the plane. He felt his better option was to just jump as soon as feasible and wherever the plane was..

This is the best theory I can come up with, if anybody can do better go for it..

 

 

Well, I think the other idea is simpler and somewhat "better," but I also see the plausibility in changing his plans because he's realizing that he is going to get rushed on the ground in Reno.

For me both of these rely on hefty amounts of speculation and I think it's more likely that he was always prepared to jump close to where he began. 

Cooper's pattern isn't really consistent across the board too--his anger at fuel times (maybe regarding d rings too) runs contrary to his seeming ease regarding the moneybag et al. 

[FLYJACK 784]

11 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

Well, I think the other idea is simpler and somewhat "better," but I also see the plausibility in changing his plans because he's realizing that he is going to get rushed on the ground in Reno.

For me both of these rely on hefty amounts of speculation and I think it's more likely that he was always prepared to jump close to where he began. 

Cooper's pattern isn't really consistent across the board too--his anger at fuel times (maybe regarding d rings too) runs contrary to his seeming ease regarding the moneybag et al. 

That position is irrational, it does not fit the evidence.. it is falsifiable.

[FLYJACK 784]

[DWeber 6]

Can someone piece this together for me? The recent discussion has left me confused. 

So Cooper initially requests Mexico but is told there is not enough fuel then the refueling stop is discussed. Let’s say he initially wanted to jump south of the US border which I tend to believe. Then why does he give the flight settings of flaps down and to keep the plane below 10, 000 feet etc upon takeoff?  Was there any discussion of just flying normally for a few hours then adjusting? Or could the plane not have made it under ideal settings?

[FLYJACK 784]

57 minutes ago, DWeber said:

Can someone piece this together for me? The recent discussion has left me confused. 

So Cooper initially requests Mexico but is told there is not enough fuel then the refueling stop is discussed. Let’s say he initially wanted to jump south of the US border which I tend to believe. Then why does he give the flight settings of flaps down and to keep the plane below 10, 000 feet etc upon takeoff?  Was there any discussion of just flying normally for a few hours then adjusting? Or could the plane not have made it under ideal settings?

Think of this in two stages..

First, the crew believed Cooper wanted the flaps and gear down the entire flight.. making the range too short to make Mexico to refuel..  My theory is that Cooper's demand was misunderstood and he wanted the flaps down and gear down when the stairs were lowered inflight,, his demands went to Tina then Tina relayed it to the crew, a version of "telephone". One word could change meaning.. for example flaps down gear down when the stairs lowered,,, flaps down gear down and the stairs lowered...  This is my theory not a fact.. If they didn't go gear down flaps down from takeoff the plane could make Mexico to refuel per Cooper's demand...

Second,, when Reno was in play Cooper changed his demands and agreed to stairs lowered on takeoff.. they talked him out of it and he tried to lower them right away.. So, the plane would then fly gear down flaps down from takeoff...  

10,000 feet was to remain unpressurized..

Edited 1 hour ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 29]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

If they didn't go gear down flaps down from takeoff the plane could make Mexico to refuel per Cooper's demand...

Why would Cooper allow himself to be gaslit about the distance the plane could fly? 

[FLYJACK 784]

58 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Why would Cooper allow himself to be gaslit about the distance the plane could fly? 

He wasn't gaslit, you don't actually understand the term, you used it incorrectly before.....  like you don't understand path...

Gaslighting is psychological manipulation. The crew was sincere..

The crew thought he wanted the plane to fly dirty from takeoff, there is a passage in the files where they are trying to figure out the configuration he wanted.

Clearly, the plane could not make Mexico flying dirty so the crew began to negotiate a US fuel stop with Cooper..