DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 784]

Just now, olemisscub said:

And you're assuming that had something to do with Reno. This is an assumption no matter how you cut it. Your argument is based on an assumption, and that's totally fine, but it's still a complete and total assumption on your part that him wanting stairs lowered at takeoff was affected by the refueling stop. 

Huh,, changing to Reno is a change in plan..   So, yes Reno was a factor in Cooper altering his plan.. Things changed after Reno...   It is a reasonable logical inference..

It isn't even necessary... Cooper had ZERO expectation and made no effort to ensure his LZ,,,,  His LZ was not a targeted plan. 

 

[olemisscub 577]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Huh,, changing to Reno is a change in plan..   So, yes Reno was a factor in Cooper altering his plan.. Things changed after Reno...   It is a reasonable logical inference..

 

In the future when making this argument, it'd be more accurate for you to state that the "refueling stop" made him change his plan, not "Reno". Reno doesn't seem to be brought up as an option over Phoenix until 7:05. The discussions about stairs occurs at 6:38. 

Regardless, your argument is still based on an inference, which is fine, but you shouldn't be so aggressive toward others who are doing the same. 

Edited 10 hours ago by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 784]

6 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

Well what I'm saying is that those negotiations and changes and decisions can all fit inside his original plan, especially if it's as nebulous and simple as it seems to be.

It doesn't matter if the destination changes as long as the plane is headed generally in the same direction, it doesn't matter when the door opens as long as he can open it when he wants, it doesn't matter when he puts the chute on...as long as he does it before he jumps. 

The knapsack thing is so wild since he doesn't push back on it. Other than it just being more important that he has chutes and the money so he's going to figure it out ASAP with as little outside interaction as possible...I can't really follow his lack of action there. 

So, he changed his plan, but it was in his plan,, OK..

I can only speculate on his original plan but the evidence is clear, he did not target his LZ because he had no knowledge and made no attempt to direct or know the planes location beforehand.. 

It is that simple. Kamkinky's argument is made of endless assumptions.. and DOESN'T fit the facts..

 

The plane could have headed on various path's to Reno.

He didn't get the stairs open when he wanted.

He put the back chute on after refuelling negotiations.

He wanted stairs lowered on takeoff after Reno was in play..

 

Three similar behaviours.. this seems to be a characteristic..

He didn't push back against "no" knapsack..

He didn't push back against getting bailout rigs..

He didn't push back about the range limitations..

 

 

[lxchilton 8]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, he changed his plan, but it was in his plan,, OK..

I can only speculate on his original plan but the evidence is clear, he did not target his LZ because he had no knowledge and made no attempt to direct or know the planes location beforehand.. 

It is that simple. Kamkinky's argument is made of endless assumptions.. and DOESN'T fit the facts..

 

The plane could have headed on various path's to Reno.

He didn't get the stairs open when he wanted.

He put the back chute on after refuelling negotiations.

He wanted stairs lowered on takeoff after Reno was in play..

 

Three similar behaviours.. this seems to be a characteristic..

He didn't push back against "no" knapsack..

He didn't push back against getting bailout rigs..

He didn't push back about the range limitations..

 

 

To me that "characteristic" is that he thought he could still achieve his original goal with those modifiers in place.

[FLYJACK 784]

7 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

In the future when making this argument, it'd be more accurate for you to state that the "refueling stop" made him change his plan, not "Reno". Reno doesn't seem to be brought up as an option over Phoenix until 7:05. The discussions about stairs occurs at 6:38. 

Regardless, your argument is still based on an inference, which is fine, but you shouldn't be so aggressive toward others who are doing the same. 

Not exactly,,, the stair discussion from the crew started earlier because they wanted to get Tina off but the exact time Cooper agreed to lowered inflight is key..

But sure the "refuelling stop" is more accurate in this context.

[FLYJACK 784]

2 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

To me that "characteristic" is that he thought he could still achieve his original goal with those modifiers in place.

But you have made that up,, you have no idea if that is true, no evidence, not even a reasonable inference...

[georger 271]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Ridiculous,,, South isn't a path.. it isn't a course..  especially in this context as there are many paths to Reno..

The plane could have been anywhere,,  he did not target an LZ,,, he couldn't have.

As for going back to where he started.. no evidence that was intentional. He jumped 20-25 miles before PDX...

The plane could have gone down the coast to Reno...  and it would have been a better choice to avoid populated areas..

It was ad hoc,, he did not target that LZ..  It is that simple.

He let others determine the path and his LZ...

 

I always have the feeling you are working up to something you arent saying! Something you will spring later. Otherwise what does this matter? Maybe you are constructing these 'metaphors'  just to test or entertain the wits of the audience?

He let others determine the path and his LZ...    he also let others pour his drinks, board the plane with him, sell him a ticket, make the crew lunches, etc etc etc. He also said: this was the right plane in the right place at the right time. He passed a note hijacking the plane and built a bomb to persuade people! 

Now he is ready to jump and testing the stairs to jump and likely as not the plane is not over the ocean or Canada etc etc etc etc ... but in the airspace of Washington  ... heading south ... 

so what is your point?  What do you see or know that the rest of the world fails to grasp ?

 

[FLYJACK 784]

6 minutes ago, georger said:

I always have the feeling you are working up to something you arent saying! Something you will spring later. Otherwise what does this matter? Maybe you are constructing these 'metaphors'  just to test or entertain the wits of the audience?

He let others determine the path and his LZ...    he also let others pour his drinks, board the plane with him, sell him a ticket, make the crew lunches, etc etc etc. He also said: this was the right plane in the right place at the right time. He passed a note hijacking the plane and built a bomb to persuade people! 

Now he is ready to jump and testing the stairs to jump and likely as not the plane is not over the ocean or Canada etc etc etc etc ... but in the airspace of Washington  ... heading south ... 

so what is your point?  What do you see or know that the rest of the world fails to grasp ?

 

The point is his LZ was ad hoc...  it was not targeted,,, that is about it.

If it was targeted he would have directed, ensured or confirmed the planes position.

 

If it was ad hoc then he had another original plan and that can be pursued..

 

[Kamkisky 29]

14 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

To me that "characteristic" is that he thought he could still achieve his original goal with those modifiers in place.

Of course. That’s why he is so flexible. He doesn’t intend to go to Mexico, or Phoenix or Reno.  He doesn’t care. That’s all just to stretch out the search zone and give him time on the ground. There’s a reason he picked the maximum flight distance.  

Fly makes it more complex. His story has a bunch of massive and impactful course changes built in. It so radically changes the plan that H jumps in Washington state when his ultimate goal is Honduras. Talk about a change of plans.  
 

The simpler version is Cooper got what he needed and the rest was a big whatever…
 

-The money (never wavered) 

-The chute (he needs a way to get down, he got that) 

-Jump configuration (he didn’t budge a fraction)

-South direction towards Portland (he negotiated nothing else)

-Ability to get the aft stairs open (he is even willing to keep a hostage with him to achieve this one). 
 

These are the things where he offered no substantial compromise. He was going to get what he needed. Why? Because that’s what he needed. 

The rest is a whatever works the fastest and with the least contact with authorities mentality.  

[Kamkisky 29]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The point is his LZ was ad hoc...  it was not targeted,,, that is about it.

If it was targeted he would have directed, ensured or confirmed the planes position.

 

If it was ad hoc then he had another original plan and that can be pursued..

 

When you say LZ how big of an area are you referencing?

Edited 9 hours ago by Kamkisky

[georger 271]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The point is his LZ was ad hoc...  it was not targeted,,, that is about it.

If it was targeted he would have directed, ensured or confirmed the planes position.

 

If it was ad hoc then he had another original plan and that can be pursued..

 

Agree. Parachuting back then was not precise. Who knows how or even IF he is keeping track of time. Then ten years later Cooper money shows up at Tena Bar, which is still in the general vicinity of his LZ.

WE still dont know what Cooper's working knowledge was or who he was. For all anyone knows he has landed in the general area he grew up in ?

[georger 271]

8 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

When you say LZ how big of an area are you referencing?

He did not land at the Fazio's back door! Ulis is shooting blanks!

Edited 9 hours ago by georger

[lxchilton 8]

42 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

But you have made that up,, you have no idea if that is true, no evidence, not even a reasonable inference...

Yes that is the nature with almost all the stuff in this case, though I argue that this is simpler than trying to suggest he actually had another mystery plan beforehand.

I am erring on the side of you just being obstinate, but if there is a reasoning behind this it would go a long way to maybe tip your hand slightly. 

[lxchilton 8]

28 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

The point is his LZ was ad hoc...  it was not targeted,,, that is about it.

If it was targeted he would have directed, ensured or confirmed the planes position.

 

If it was ad hoc then he had another original plan and that can be pursued..

 

You say this as if it is one or the other, but he could have altered parts of the original plan without affecting the end result. It's less complicated and requires less evidence to assume this is the case. His LZ could be pretty big as long as he can hoof it back to wherever his car or other escape is. 

If the targeted LZ is as big as "nearish Portland" then he can still have "targeted" it.

If there is evidence of an original plan then it would be great to see that...but if there is not (there is not and I'm not just suggesting that it doesn't exist; you have provided nothing other than being contrary) then it's a waste of time. 

[FLYJACK 784]

19 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

When you say LZ how big of an area are you referencing?

That is complicated here,, 

Jumping with a non steerable bailout rig is not accurate at all with potential drift,, maybe up to a 6 mile radius or 113 sq mile area... that is if he targeted a spot.

Than the fact that he didn't know where he was going to be means there was no LZ other than the general southern Washington..

I consider a targeted LZ within a few mile radius...

If the plane took the coast south, he would have jumped there...

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 784]

9 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

You say this as if it is one or the other, but he could have altered parts of the original plan without affecting the end result. It's less complicated and requires less evidence to assume this is the case. His LZ could be pretty big as long as he can hoof it back to wherever his car or other escape is. 

If the targeted LZ is as big as "nearish Portland" then he can still have "targeted" it.

If there is evidence of an original plan then it would be great to see that...but if there is not (there is not and I'm not just suggesting that it doesn't exist; you have provided nothing other than being contrary) then it's a waste of time. 

Not when you consider the fact that he had no direction or knowledge for the planes location.

It isn't less complicated, it requires layers of assumptions..

I have a theory for an original plan that both fits the evidence and resolves some issues that are unexplained..  it doesn't make it true.. 

but to claim my theory is a waste of time and yours is worthwhile is an absurd position and detrimental to the advancement of the case.

The difference is your theory relies entirely on speculation and does not fit the evidence. 

[Kamkisky 29]

23 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That is complicated here,, 

1) Jumping with a non steerable bailout rig is not accurate at all with potential drift,, maybe up to a 6 mile radius or 113 sq mile area... that is if he targeted a spot.

2) Than the fact that he didn't know where he was going to be means there was no LZ other than the general southern Washington..

3) I consider a targeted LZ within a few mile radius...

4) If the plane took the coast south, he would have jumped there...

 

 

 

1) No one is claiming he targeted a “spot.” So we can drop this one. 
 

2) You’re getting closer. And he did know where he was going…south from SeaTac. 
 

3) This is where your “no targeted LZ” responses aren’t relevant to the jump the lights theory. No one is suggesting this degree of accuracy. Go back to number two’s LZ and we are comparing something closer to apples to apples.  
 

4) Name another person -not in a crashing plane- who has ever willing jumped the coast of the PNW or Nor Cal at night? With or without safety protocols? Is there a single example? No sane person would do that. This is one of your biggest assumptions. Have you been to this coastline? To jump it is a suicide attempt. He have to have no idea what direction the plane flew and could not see anything underneath him. He’d have to come out of a short coma and jump into a sightless void. It just makes zero sense.  

Edited 8 hours ago by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 784]

4 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

1) No one is claiming he targeted a “spot.” So we can drop this one. 
 

2) You’re getting closer. And he did know where he was going…south from SeaTac. 
 

3) This is where your “no targeted LZ” responses aren’t relevant to the jump the lights theory. No one is suggesting this degree of accuracy. Go back to number two’s LZ and we are comparing something closer to apples to apples.  
 

4) Name another person -not in a crashing plane- who has ever willing jumped the coast of the PNW or Nor Cal at night? With or without safety protocols? Is there a single example? No sane person would do that. This is one of your biggest assumptions. Have you been to this coastline? To jump it is a suicide attempt. He have to have no idea what direction the plane flew and could not see anything underneath him. He’d have to come out of a short coma and jump into a sightless void. It just makes zero sense.  

Nope, you argument is that he jumped exactly where he planned to using the lights of Battle Ground.. Now you move the goal post and claim his LZ is much larger..  just anywhere South..  that doesn't fit your Battle Ground narrative..

You have been claiming his LZ was pre-planned.

The evidence shows that he had no pre-knowledge for the location of the plane and he never asked, confirmed or demanded it..

There is no evidence he could see the lights of Battle Ground, used it as a marker or even knew it was Battle Ground.. 

There is no evidence he intentionally targeted a flat spot beyond the forest.

South is not path no matter how many times you claim it.. there are dozens or more paths to Reno that go South.. Many paths go south to Reno.. This is an absurd claim...

Flying over a populated area with a potential bomb is arguably the worst path..

There is no evidence Cooper only wanted the plane heading South.

There is no evidence Cooper chose Mexico as a ruse to jump early.

Cooper DID NOT demand the plane fly to Mexico City nonstop.. it could refuel anywhere in Mexico..

He did not negotiate South to Portland.

He got the wrong chutes, more robust but less accurate and a higher risk of injury.

He did change the jump configuration,, airstairs down inflight then on takeoff then inflight.

Cooper never gave a path or a restriction... this bizarre coastal jump thing you keep claiming makes no sense.. He rejected large airports that did not require a coastal route,, The crew seriously discussed a coastal route to Reno and we have no evidence Cooper was even aware of that. So, you claim he would have stopped them if they did, You don't know that and you don't know if he could have known. You just keep making up nonsense.

It is really simple,, his LZ was ad hoc, it was not pre-planned.. if you are jumping an LZ isn't a southern region of a State..

[Kamkisky 29]

FBI - "It was clear..." Cooper wanted to go south from Seattle. 

Pilots - We could see Portland and other distinctive lights.

Cooper - Jumps at the lights just north of Portland.

Fly - That's not evidence. 

OK. 

--------

Let's try this one last time, as a multiple choice:

If you were jumping out of the back of a 727 jet at night with a single parachute, would you try to land in:

a) a dense forest (Cooper waited it out)

b) a rugged coastline/ocean (Cooper never agreed to it, and it'd likely kill him)

c) somewhere on a 10k ft mountain (Cooper set flight configurations that make it impossible without massive risk of death for everyone on board) 

d) inside a city/suburbs (Cooper jumped before because that's a life in prison sentence)

e) rolling farmland (Hmmm) 

We could give this test to elementary school children...they'd largely pick correctly. 

---------

I'm not clear what about this isn't straight forward. It'd be easy to say, yes your theory has less moving parts but I have trouble with the flight path element, my theory accounts for X more than yours...let me tell you how. That wouldn't be hard. But you just insist your far more complex theory, based on many more assumptions, is the most basic concept that accounts for everything. Well...sorry. It doesn't. You can't account for why he didn't insist on Mexico when he knew he could get there. You can't account for how he calculated the fly distance of a 727 from a starting point he didn't plan on (according your theory). You can't account for why he went with the PNW when he really wanted to go to Mexico (according to you). You simply have a more convoluted theory, that doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right. But it does mean your's is more convoluted, which is fine. Just own it. Not a big deal. 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Kamkisky

[Kamkisky 29]

Finally, my theory is he was targeting terrain. Essentially he wanted farmland and not forest, cities or ocean. He -per the FBI- wanted to go south. He, per the accounts of when Tina went to the cockpit, jumped after waiting out the dark forest. Per accounts of the pressure bump, he jumps before the Vancouver suburbs. I think it's easy to assume he wanted west of the mountains he was flying lower than which could kill him and east of the coast that'd kill him too. He had I-5 as a guiding corridor as well as the lights of BG. He might have used other lights too. That's his intended LZ, basically south of the Lewis River and North of Vancouver somewhere near I-5. Maybe that fits into other people's definition of a LZ, maybe it doesn't. For the operating principle he needed to land in farmland this was sufficient. And it worked. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 577]

Oh dear. Now Eric believes Cooper jumped in.....CHEHALIS!!!!

C'mon Eric.

[Kamkisky 29]

18 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Oh dear. Now Eric believes Cooper jumped in.....CHEHALIS!!!!

C'mon Eric.

Won't lie. Had to look it up. Yikes.  

Edited 1 hour ago by Kamkisky