DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 784]

8 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

Ahh, how did I know you'd say something like that. Do I find it insulting? Nah, at this point it's just funny. Pathetic, but funny.

 

 

 

What does that have to do with anything? That curtain just separates the sections within the cabin. Irrelevant and immaterial. (Actually, curtains are material, so...)

 

 

Surely you've been on a commercial flight? Those window blinds can be opened or closed at will by whoever is in that seat. They were all closed on the tarmac at Seatac so no potential sharpshooter could see where he was? But once they were airborne he could have opened any of them that he wanted to look out of.

 

 

They discussed it amongst themselves, not with Cooper. But they didn't head for the coast, so the question will forever remain unanswered if Cooper would have objected.

 

 

I think this is everyone else's question to you.

 

Nobody knows or ever will know what Cooper's plan was. But Kam's theory is as good as anyone's. You say it doesn't fit the evidence. But the evidence is, what he describes is precisely what happened.  If...  IF  Cooper wanted to jump where he did, south is all he needs. South IS a path. Mexico is south. LA and SF are not. Reno is. They did not head for the coast. They went south, and Cooper jumped where he did. Again, no one will ever know whether that was his intent. But if it was, it worked.

No, that theory is absurd... it doesn't fit the evidence and relies of layers of assumptions..  A terrible analysis of the evidence so no surprise you support it with your admittedly limited case knowledge..

South is not a path.. the coast is also South....  going through the pass then to Reno is also South... the plane could have taken maybe dozens or more paths South to Reno...  To claim South is a path is an abuse of reason.. and should be immediately disqualifying.. like claiming the moon is made of cheese and can feed the world.

His theory is that Cooper knew the plane would be there, he originally had that target LZ and used the lights of Battle Ground, all of those are assumptions with no evidence.. Since we know Cooper gave no path, had no indication for a path, confirmed no path,,, he had no knowledge or expectation the plane would be there. They could have taken many routes... The evidence also indicates they could not see the ground out of Seattle so he wouldn't know which specific path it was taking..

Claiming he just would have said something if the plane took a different path is desperation to maintain a narrative... 

The theory is weak and doesn't fit the evidence... Cooper's jump was ad hoc,, that fits the evidence...  though I agree we may never know his original plan..

Edited 4 hours ago by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 784]

10 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Ulis is saying that the ATC guy who was assigned to 305 at the time of the jump randomly reached out to him. He hasn't given many details yet. He did state that this guy is verifying that Rat said "Mark it on your shrimp boats, I think our friend just took leave of us". I'm still dubious about that quote though...

This guy may be the real guy and may be telling the truth, but I'm concerned that Eric will confuse his words around the way he has done with Cliff in an effort to promote WFP. 

Eric is also again repeating his opinion about how absurd it is that the FBI never talked to anyone with the ATC. So what? Why would they have needed to talk to anyone with ATC when they had the Air Force map? 

I actually tend to believe Rat said it but there is no proof of course..

But, I don't see what difference it makes,,, what changes?

[FLYJACK 784]

Hey I am just an amateur sleuth,,, but maybe you really smart guys can explain how South is a path..

South is a general direction (not North),, a path is a specific course.. 

Crude image to make a point not meant to be exact..

[lxchilton 8]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Hey I am just an amateur sleuth,,, but maybe you really smart guys can explain how South is a path..

South is a general direction (not North),, a path is a specific course.. 

Crude image to make a point not meant to be exact..

Wow a semantic argument on this forum. First time for everything.

Cooper seems to have wanted to go a general direction. That general direction was south.

Was his plan to jump when he did exactly? Probably not. 

He did jump then and it worked out in the sense that we don't know who he was or what happened after he left the plane.

Let's be done with this.

[FLYJACK 784]

17 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

Wow a semantic argument on this forum. First time for everything.

Cooper seems to have wanted to go a general direction. That general direction was south.

Was his plan to jump when he did exactly? Probably not. 

He did jump then and it worked out in the sense that we don't know who he was or what happened after he left the plane.

Let's be done with this.

Huh,,, the semantics is claiming South is a path to argue Cooper knew where the plane would be..

Most of the disagreements in this case involve semantics..

Fact is... South is NOT a PATH... not in any reality...

 

The Ad Hoc theory fits the evidence better... but let's be done and pretend an absurd argument has legitimacy...

 

Edited 3 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 29]

Here’s the battle of the simplest explanation:

-He was flying around looking for a flight to skyjack. He -obviously by necessity- is changing his jump and ground game plan with each flight he passes on.

-But he really wants to go to Mexico  

-He settles on skyjacking 305 in the PNW, a flight heading North (away from Mexico).

-He just happens to know the PNW in detail from the air and ground (McCord/Tacoma).  

-He does the math in his head to determine the Seattle to Mexico City flying distance of a fully fuel 727. 

-He gets confused/scared and negotiated Reno against his wishes.

-He turns down the coast airports not because they are in the coast and he is wearing a parachute, for other reasons (skyjackers lie).

-He then changes whatever plan he had when he got on the 305, he decides instead to jump at random into the night. 

Plan(s) A - the other flights he passed on. 

Plan B - take 305 to Mexico

Plan C - 305 to Reno

Plan D - jump at random and hope
 

 

————————

 

 

 

Vs.

-Go A to B.

-Jump the lights as he approaches A on return trip.

 

——-

 

Your honor, we rest our case and put our faith in the good will and intelligence of the jury   

 

 

[FLYJACK 784]

21 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Here’s the battle of the simplest explanation:

-He was flying around looking for a flight to skyjack. He -obviously by necessity- is changing his jump and ground game plan with each flight he passes on.

-But he really wants to go to Mexico  

-He settles on skyjacking 305 in the PNW, a flight heading North (away from Mexico).

-He just happens to know the PNW in detail from the air and ground (McCord/Tacoma).  

-He does the math in his head to determine the Seattle to Mexico City flying distance of a fully fuel 727. 

-He gets confused/scared and negotiated Reno against his wishes.

-He turns down the coast airports not because they are in the coast and he is wearing a parachute, for other reasons (skyjackers lie).

-He then changes whatever plan he had when he got on the 305, he decides instead to jump at random into the night. 

Plan(s) A - the other flights he passed on. 

Plan B - take 305 to Mexico

Plan C - 305 to Reno

Plan D - jump at random and hope
 

 

————————

 

 

 

Vs.

-Go A to B.

-Jump the lights as he approaches A on return trip.

 

——-

 

Your honor, we rest our case and put our faith in the good will and intelligence of the jury   

 

 

Stupid analysis with errors and assumptions...   

 

 

You fail to recognize that he did not know where the plane would be and rely on the most absurd premise that South is a path... South has dozens or more paths..

Simple..

He didn't know the path the plane would take and jumped when he could before landing in Reno... 

He did not target an LZ.... it was ad hoc..

That fits the evidence.

 

Your theory is layered with assumptions errors and rejected by the facts.

 

[lxchilton 8]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Stupid analysis with errors and assumptions...   

 

 

You fail to recognize that he did not know where the plane would be and rely on the most absurd premise that South is a path... South has dozens or more paths..

Simple..

He didn't know the path the plane would take and jumped when he could before landing in Reno... 

He did not target an LZ.... it was ad hoc..

That fits the evidence.

 

Your theory is layered with assumptions errors and rejected by the facts.

 

I think we can all see that assuming the plane would go exactly where you want it when you don't tell it to go exactly where you want it to go isn't the best plan. 

That doesn't mean that it wasn't Cooper's plan though. 

He knew enough about all the things involved in the hijacking to be dangerous, but he may not have known as much as he seems to since we don't know who he is. 

South can be a path--head south. That's a path as in: "the course or direction in which a person or thing is moving."

It is not the same as defining an exact flightpath, but your argument seems to be entirely tied up in this dumb distinction. 

His exact LZ was ad hoc in that he didn't pinpoint anything but he assumed (whether out of ignnorance, confidence, knowledge, etc. we don't know) he would end up back where he started. Back where his means of conveyance was. Back to the simplest explanation for this all.

And he appears to have done just that. 

[olemisscub 577]

I do agree with Flyjack in the sense that I feel Cooper was winging it more than some might think, but this is what the FBI had to say. They seemed to substitute "south" for "Reno".

 

[FLYJACK 784]

16 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

I think we can all see that assuming the plane would go exactly where you want it when you don't tell it to go exactly where you want it to go isn't the best plan. 

That doesn't mean that it wasn't Cooper's plan though. 

He knew enough about all the things involved in the hijacking to be dangerous, but he may not have known as much as he seems to since we don't know who he is. 

South can be a path--head south. That's a path as in: "the course or direction in which a person or thing is moving."

It is not the same as defining an exact flightpath, but your argument seems to be entirely tied up in this dumb distinction. 

His exact LZ was ad hoc in that he didn't pinpoint anything but he assumed (whether out of ignnorance, confidence, knowledge, etc. we don't know) he would end up back where he started. Back where his means of conveyance was. Back to the simplest explanation for this all.

And he appears to have done just that. 

Ridiculous,,, South isn't a path.. it isn't a course..  especially in this context as there are many paths to Reno..

The plane could have been anywhere,,  he did not target an LZ,,, he couldn't have.

As for going back to where he started.. no evidence that was intentional. He jumped 20-25 miles before PDX...

The plane could have gone down the coast to Reno...  and it would have been a better choice to avoid populated areas..

It was ad hoc,, he did not target that LZ..  It is that simple.

He let others determine the path and his LZ...

 

Edited 2 hours ago by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 8]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Ridiculous,,, South isn't a path.. it isn't a course..  especially in this context as there are many paths to Reno..

The plane could have been anywhere,,  he did not target an LZ,,, he couldn't have.

As for going back to where he started.. no evidence that was intentional. He jumped 20-25 miles before PDX...

The plane could have gone down the coast to Reno...  and it would have been a better choice to avoid populated areas..

It was ad hoc,, he did not target that LZ..  It is that simple.

He let others determine the path and his LZ...

 

But couldn't his "plan" have been that he just wanted to head south and jump out in a general sort of area thinking that the feds would be looking everywhere along the path to Mexico (which ended up being Reno)?

That overall plan isn't ad hoc, it just means in his outline that "jump" portion is kind of "wing it."

[Kamkisky 29]

3 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

But couldn't his "plan" have been that he just wanted to head south and jump out in a general sort of area thinking that the feds would be looking everywhere along the path to Mexico (which ended up being Reno)?

That overall plan isn't ad hoc, it just means in his outline that "jump" portion is kind of "wing it."

This. He wants a certain terrain. He is aiming for a region, not a specific spot. Anywhere North of the Vancouver suburbs works for him.  That’s the plan, don’t jump into a forest or town…jump into farms.  The lights tell him he is in the right region and coming up on Portland quick.  

Edited 1 hour ago by Kamkisky

[Kamkisky 29]

17 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I do agree with Flyjack in the sense that I feel Cooper was winging it more than some might think, but this is what the FBI had to say. They seemed to substitute "south" for "Reno".

 

“It was clear from this command that Cooper did not particularly care where the plane went as long as it went south from Seattle.”

 

I guess this isn’t evidence? It’s an assumption? Riddled with errors? 

Edited 1 hour ago by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 784]

48 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

“It was clear from this command that Cooper did not particularly care where the plane went as long as it went south from Seattle.”

 

I guess this isn’t evidence? It’s an assumption? Riddled with errors? 

Your argument is a mess....  it lacks consistency, reason, accuracy and evidence.

It is a bad guess..  and does nothing to advance this case.

[FLYJACK 784]

57 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

This. He wants a certain terrain. He is aiming for a region, not a specific spot. Anywhere North of the Vancouver suburbs works for him.  That’s the plan, don’t jump into a forest or town…jump into farms.  The lights tell him he is in the right region and coming up on Portland quick.  

You assume could see that particular terrain, knew it well, knew the plane would be there and it was a targeted jump... your argument is all made up...

 

 

[FLYJACK 784]

1 hour ago, lxchilton said:

But couldn't his "plan" have been that he just wanted to head south and jump out in a general sort of area thinking that the feds would be looking everywhere along the path to Mexico (which ended up being Reno)?

That overall plan isn't ad hoc, it just means in his outline that "jump" portion is kind of "wing it."

His plan changed when Reno was in play... to jump as soon and feasible... the specific location was Ad Hoc... If the plane was 40 miles West or 20 miles East he would have jumped there..

 

Bottom line is his LZ was not targeted or pre-planned... His initial plan is unknown, I have a theory that fits the facts but that is debatable.

[lxchilton 8]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

His plan changed when Reno was in play... to jump as soon and feasible... the specific location was Ad Hoc... If the plane was 40 miles West or 20 miles East he would have jumped there..

 

Bottom line is his LZ was not targeted or pre-planned... His initial plan is unknown, I have a theory that fits the facts but that is debatable.

What evidence is there that his plan changes when they decide to head to Reno instead of Mexico?

If a change is made it appears to happen entirely inside Cooper's head with no indication to the outside world, which would mean there is no evidence for it. Not saying that it can't have happened, just that it's a real stab in the dark vs an educated guess.

[olemisscub 577]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

His plan changed when Reno was in play... to jump as soon and feasible...

Is this not an assumption? You're assuming that his desire to leave Seattle with the stairs down was motivated by Reno. 

[FLYJACK 784]

4 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

What evidence is there that his plan changes when they decide to head to Reno instead of Mexico?

If a change is made it appears to happen entirely inside Cooper's head with no indication to the outside world, which would mean there is no evidence for it. Not saying that it can't have happened, just that it's a real stab in the dark vs an educated guess.

He changed his demand to airstairs lowered on takeoff,,  he also put on the parachute after negotiations..

[olemisscub 577]

fwiw, this is how I decided to portray this exchange in my book.

 

[lxchilton 8]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

He changed his demand to airstairs lowered on takeoff,,  he also put on the parachute after negotiations..

Those are facts, but I don't know that they mean anything other than that they happened.

[FLYJACK 784]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

fwiw, this is how I decided to portray this exchange in my book.

 

It still isn't clear in the files if the crew first suggested airstairs lowered on takeoff or Cooper did but he did change his demand from lowered inflight..  then finally back and Tina to lower them.

[FLYJACK 784]

5 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

Those are facts, but I don't know that they mean anything other than that they happened.

It means he changed his initial demands,,, the airstairs, the (Reno) destination and the knapsack. His initial plan was altered...

I suppose you can assume his initial plan was to jump randomly whatever path the plane took, but that is a bit ridiculous... and was not Kamkinsky's argument..

 

Edited 35 minutes ago by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 577]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

but he did change his demand from lowered inflight..  

And you're assuming that had something to do with Reno. This is an assumption no matter how you cut it. Your argument is based on an assumption, and that's totally fine, but it's still a complete and total assumption on your part that him wanting stairs lowered at takeoff was affected by the refueling stop. 

[lxchilton 8]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It means he changed his initial demands,,, the airstairs, the (Reno) destination and the knapsack. His initial plan was altered...

 

Well what I'm saying is that those negotiations and changes and decisions can all fit inside his original plan, especially if it's as nebulous and simple as it seems to be.

It doesn't matter if the destination changes as long as the plane is headed generally in the same direction, it doesn't matter when the door opens as long as he can open it when he wants, it doesn't matter when he puts the chute on...as long as he does it before he jumps. 

The knapsack thing is so wild since he doesn't push back on it. Other than it just being more important that he has chutes and the money so he's going to figure it out ASAP with as little outside interaction as possible...I can't really follow his lack of action there.