DB Cooper

[lxchilton 4]

24 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No,, He told Tina the config,, she relayed it to the crew,,, there is a note in the Files that they trying to figure it out.. 

One word can change the entire meaning... He never said fly the entire way "dirty"... 

But that is indeed what happened and his lack of any kind of resistance suggests he didn't care because he was planning to get out of there ASAP. 

If we need to reduce this to two options I see it like this:

1) he knows that he wants to jump ASAP from the moment he plans the hijacking and all the decisions he makes are is service of this one goal.

2) he is some kind of genius savant who is doing a silent mental calculus in his head with no real interaction with the crew because he knows his note is going to be understood 100% and if it isn't he will come up with a plan silently and is constantly changing and tweaking his whole hijacking despite sometimes being incredibly uncool, loud, and scary. This seems real all over the place. 

I can't imagine a reading of this where the gear and flaps are not down the whole time. There's no "once you get to 'x' flaps and gear down, etc."

[FLYJACK 780]

8 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

He knew enough to say flaps at 15 and gear down, but that doesn't mean he was correct in his assumptions. He could have had first hand knowledge of those things or he could have talked to someone who had; Cooper might have been in Vietnam and had friends and contacts who were hands on with the 727s overseas without having any actual experience with them himself. They lower the flaps to 30 degrees later on because they're going to fast; it's another example of him knowing a lingo but maybe not understanding it. 

You can look up the range of a 727, but not understand what would affect it adversely. 

I think he would have had to renegotiate the demand if he was banking on his calculations being correct. That didn't happen; he presented an option and eventually settled on something that was quite unlike his original demand but for the heading.

If Cooper was misunderstood, why on earth was he silent? It doesn't make any sense that he would suffer in silence if it was so impactful to his original plan. I can't do the mental gymnastics to get there.

He knew about refuelling that indicates he would understand range and the effect of flying dirty... 

Cooper would not know he was misunderstood.. He was told the plane can't make Mexico and would have to refuel..  We can't know what was going on his head...

Look this a theory, it isn't proven, never will be... 

You guys keep using assumptions to reject it,, you need to challenge it with facts, not assumptions.

[FLYJACK 780]

13 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

But that is indeed what happened and his lack of any kind of resistance suggests he didn't care because he was planning to get out of there ASAP. 

If we need to reduce this to two options I see it like this:

1) he knows that he wants to jump ASAP from the moment he plans the hijacking and all the decisions he makes are is service of this one goal.

2) he is some kind of genius savant who is doing a silent mental calculus in his head with no real interaction with the crew because he knows his note is going to be understood 100% and if it isn't he will come up with a plan silently and is constantly changing and tweaking his whole hijacking despite sometimes being incredibly uncool, loud, and scary. This seems real all over the place. 

I can't imagine a reading of this where the gear and flaps are not down the whole time. There's no "once you get to 'x' flaps and gear down, etc."

That is a summary of Tina's understanding and recall.. that is not necessarily Cooper's intended demand.

In fact, Tina has conflated Cooper's initial demand with the later one...

His initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight..  not on takeoff.

Edited 14 hours ago by FLYJACK

[haggarknew 5]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That is a summary of Tina's understanding and recall.. that is not necessarily Cooper's intended demand.

In fact, Tina has conflated Cooper's initial demand with the later one...

His initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight..  not on takeoff.

Why ask for gear down?

[lxchilton 4]

26 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That is a summary of Tina's understanding and recall.. that is not necessarily Cooper's intended demand.

In fact, Tina has conflated Cooper's initial demand with the later one...

His initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight..  not on takeoff.

This is her later recollection right? I read this the same as the previous. We are going here, gear down, flaps down, no stopping in the US, aft door is open, stairs are down. You would need a "once you are in the air...lower the stairs" or something to that effect. 

Anyway, these notes are indeed after the fact creations; we can't escape their imperfections. My goal is only to say that there are far simpler explanations for Cooper's mindset and that the complexity of an assumption is one of the most important pieces of any theory that we have. 

When we are presented with theories in a manner that brushes aside other theories that utilize the same group of facts and data we have to push back; can't be too narrow in our focuses.

[lxchilton 4]

3 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

Why ask for gear down?

My assumption is that he figured it would increase drag and keep them from going too fast which could make for a more dangerous jump/keep the stairs from lowering all the way.

[Kamkisky 24]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Why not.. He initially said airstairs lowered inflight by stew.. he did not give any path other than anywhere in Mexico.

 

There is zero reason to ask for the stairs to be down or the plane to be configured in any abnormal way if he plans to be on it when it lands in Mexico. Not a single reason to discuss any of that in Seattle. What was he going to do, have them retract the stairs before landing in Mexico?
 

The only time it makes sense to discuss that stuff is at the final stop before he plans to jump. This clearly indicates he planned to jump coming out of Seattle the whole time. Now maybe he planned to jump where he did or maybe he planned to do it elsewhere (Mexico) but it’s clear he planned to do it before the plane landed again, and he brought it up *before* Reno was discussed. Reno didn’t change the fact he was going to jump before the plane landed again.  
 

Edited 13 hours ago by Kamkisky

[haggarknew 5]

51 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

My assumption is that he figured it would increase drag and keep them from going too fast which could make for a more dangerous jump/keep the stairs from lowering all the way.

Wouldn't it also increase fuel consumption / decrease range?

[lxchilton 4]

1 hour ago, haggarknew said:

Wouldn't it also increase fuel consumption / decrease range?

For sure, though it seems like Cooper did not know how much of a dent it would make in the overall range of the 727. This is one of the big reasons that I don't think he was planning on going to Mexico--if the realization that this wouldn't work was going to completely foil his plan then he wouldn't have taken it sitting down like he did. Whatever back of the napkin math or bit of 727 trivia he knew regarding range was only important on paper, not to where he was going to want to jump.

[FLYJACK 780]

2 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

There is zero reason to ask for the stairs to be down or the plane to be configured in any abnormal way if he plans to be on it when it lands in Mexico. Not a single reason to discuss any of that in Seattle. What was he going to do, have them retract the stairs before landing in Mexico?
 

The only time it makes sense to discuss that stuff is at the final stop before he plans to jump. This clearly indicates he planned to jump coming out of Seattle the whole time. Now maybe he planned to jump where he did or maybe he planned to do it elsewhere (Mexico) but it’s clear he planned to do it before the plane landed again, and he brought it up *before* Reno was discussed. Reno didn’t change the fact he was going to jump before the plane landed again.  
 

He didn't ask for the stairs to be down initially,, he said to be lowered inflight by the stew.

[FLYJACK 780]

3 hours ago, haggarknew said:

Why ask for gear down?

It limits the speed,, also, I discovered that when the military does low altitude cargo drops they have the gear down,, significant,, I don't know..

[FLYJACK 780]

3 hours ago, lxchilton said:

This is her later recollection right? I read this the same as the previous. We are going here, gear down, flaps down, no stopping in the US, aft door is open, stairs are down. You would need a "once you are in the air...lower the stairs" or something to that effect. 

Anyway, these notes are indeed after the fact creations; we can't escape their imperfections. My goal is only to say that there are far simpler explanations for Cooper's mindset and that the complexity of an assumption is one of the most important pieces of any theory that we have. 

When we are presented with theories in a manner that brushes aside other theories that utilize the same group of facts and data we have to push back; can't be too narrow in our focuses.

This one is different, it conflates the early demands and the later ones..

If Cooper had said gear down flaps down WHEN airstairs lowered,, everything changes..  One missed word can change the meaning,,

Before Reno, the crew assumed he wanted to fly dirty from takeoff,, he never said that. 

[Kamkisky 24]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

He didn't ask for the stairs to be down initially,, he said to be lowered inflight by the stew.

He is in Seattle and plans on landing in Mexico. Why is he talking to them about lowering stairs in flight at that point? 

 

[FLYJACK 780]

22 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

He is in Seattle and plans on landing in Mexico. Why is he talking to them about lowering stairs in flight at that point? 

 

Because he made it clear they would be lowered infighting by the stew,, he wanted them to know the flight config before,, he never gave a path,,, That indicates he was going give a path and order the stew to lower the stairs inflight.

I don't see any problem with Cooper telling the flight crew how he wanted the plane configured beforehand.. If he gave a specific LZ that would be an issue..

[Kamkisky 24]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Because he made it clear they would be lowered infighting by the stew,, he wanted them to know the flight config before,, he never gave a path,,, That indicates he was going give a path and order the stew to lower the stairs inflight.

I don't see any problem with Cooper telling the flight crew how he wanted the plane configured beforehand.. If he gave a specific LZ that would be an issue..

He is 1,200 miles from Tijuana. Seems a little premature. 

And if your theory is right it set off a cascading effect that ends up forcing him to abandon his plan (second plan anyways) and jump at random into the night over a thousand miles from his original destination. Bad move. 

It’s so much simpler to look at what he did and just accept it. A to B and back to A. Jump the lights of terrain he knows and let the plane fly off to a distant destination to stretch the search zone. It’s a basic plan that is repeatable. It’s the most likely scenario according to a 14th century English philosopher named Ockham. 

 

[FLYJACK 780]

32 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

He is 1,200 miles from Tijuana. Seems a little premature. 

And if your theory is right it set off a cascading effect that ends up forcing him to abandon his plan (second plan anyways) and jump at random into the night over a thousand miles from his original destination. Bad move. 

It’s so much simpler to look at what he did and just accept it. A to B and back to A. Jump the lights of terrain he knows and let the plane fly off to a distant destination to stretch the search zone. It’s a basic plan that is repeatable. It’s the most likely scenario according to a 14th century English philosopher named Ockham. 

 

I can't think of any downside for giving the configuration early.. he had parachutes they knew he was likely jumping.. An "aviator" would accommodate the crew.

Occam's Razor supports my theory.. there are no facts that reject it. The other one has unresolved issues or claims that are illogical.

Cooper gave no path,, It was not a planned LZ...

He was not dressed for a PNW jump in those conditions, Landing in the dark/cold/wet and hiking out is not easy.. Cooper would be wet cold and dirty. South is much better for jumping.

The US/American currency qualifier suggests a "foreign" element.

Cooper was described as Latin/Mexican/Native American.

Cooper initially demanded airstairs lowered inflight.

Cooper rejected large airports to refuel.

He knew about refuelling and aviation,, he didn't get the range wrong.

and why wasn't Cooper identified???

The standard investigative methods failed.. something unique occurred in this case.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by FLYJACK