DB Cooper

[olemisscub 566]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

My "theory" is that Cooper took a flight from the East heading West to hijack a plane to another airport..

For some reason he aborted, the flight lands/terminates in Portland.

He never leaves PDX and picks 305 in another attempt.

This is pure speculation but does fit the evidence..  So, don't attack me..

 

This theory must surely be based on H, no? If he weren't the guy you were investigating, would this still be a theory of yours?

[FLYJACK 780]

16 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

So landing in Mexico to refuel didn’t scare him. Landing in Seattle to get cash and refuel didn’t scare him. Landing in Reno to refill freaked him out and he changed plans. I don’t know Fly…it’s a lot. 

Difference is,, he had the money and hostages had left.

Landing in Seattle he had the hostages to swap for the money.

For whatever reason, he felt landing in Reno was less appealing than jumping with the money.

This is a theory, not provable.

 

[FLYJACK 780]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This theory must surely be based on H, no? If he weren't the guy you were investigating, would this still be a theory of yours?

Yes.. I had this idea before I ever heard of H..

I never accepted the idea that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped (targeted) and the dominant narrative was that he demanded Mexico City as a ruse to get the plane heading south,,, that never ever made sense to me..  Nobody makes a demand they know will be rejected. Cooper believed the plane could make Mexico when he made that initial demand.  

I always believed Cooper initially wanted to jump outside the the US.. 

Edited 11 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 24]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Difference is,, he had the money and hostages had left.

Landing in Seattle he had the hostages to swap for the money.

For whatever reason, he felt landing in Reno was less appealing than jumping with the money.

This is a theory, not provable.

 

If his plan was to refuel in Mexico when he gave instructions to 305 in the PNW why ask for the dirty configuration? That configuration has only two rationales, to make it jumpable and to stretch out the search zone. If his plan was to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico neither of these apply. It makes no sense to ask for it.  

[lxchilton 4]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes.. I had this idea before I ever heard of H..

I never accepted the idea that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped (targeted) and the dominant narrative was that he demanded Mexico City as a ruse to get the plane heading south,,, that never ever made sense to me..  Nobody makes a demand they know will be rejected. Cooper believed the plane could make Mexico when he made that initial demand.  

I always believed Cooper initially wanted to jump outside the the US.. 

I don't think he knew it would be rejected though. If he knows the basic flying distance of a 727 and knows a way to make sure the plane is flying at an altitude and speed he can safely jump out at but does not know that these two in conjunction are going to ruin the available distance, then he could easily have assumed it wouldn't be rejected. 

The big key to my thinking behind him not actually caring that it gets to Mexico is he doesn't fight it. He says they can't refuel anywhere in the US and then the second they say it can't be done he just rolls over and finds another place that happens to get the plane going south again. 

It's technically possible that he is completely torn up about this, thinks that Reno is going to be a refueling stop, and he will eventually jump in outside the States, but there's no evidence for this. He would have to be internalizing the entire war between jumping now or a long time later, chancing it with being on the ground again; he is on record as being somewhat loudly irritable when things aren't going to his liking so I would assume that something this big would get him going again. 

Ultimately I think Mexico is a ruse and he's not overly bothered by Reno because he won't be on the plane and they are currently still thinking that he and the bomb will be on the plane until Mexico. He's not tipping his hand and he's still going to have the giant swathe of land where he could have jumped (damn that pressure bump!).

Why make it more complicated than it has to be?

[lxchilton 4]

8 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If his plan was to refuel in Mexico when he gave instructions to 305 in the PNW why ask for the dirty configuration? That configuration has only two rationales, to make it jumpable and to stretch out the search zone. If his plan was to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico neither of these apply. It makes no sense to ask for it.  

The whole thing stinks of "get in the air going south and make them think we are flying for a LONG time." Barring actually knowing Cooper's thoughts I can't think of a simpler more elegant reasoning.

[olemisscub 566]

19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes.. I had this idea before I ever heard of H..

I never accepted the idea that Cooper knew where he was when he jumped (targeted) and the dominant narrative was that he demanded Mexico City as a ruse to get the plane heading south,,, that never ever made sense to me..  Nobody makes a demand they know will be rejected. Cooper believed the plane could make Mexico when he made that initial demand.  

I always believed Cooper initially wanted to jump outside the the US.. 

I see.

fwiw, Mac instructed them to fly to Toronto from St. Louis because he figured Michigan was along that flight path. This is where I can see some commonality between Mac and Cooper with how both were clearly winging it. 

[olemisscub 566]

15 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If his plan was to refuel in Mexico when he gave instructions to 305 in the PNW why ask for the dirty configuration? That configuration has only two rationales, to make it jumpable and to stretch out the search zone. If his plan was to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico neither of these apply. It makes no sense to ask for it.  

Yeah that's a good point. He didn't really have any tactical reason to spill the beans on his jump configuration if he was wanting to jump hours later.

[FLYJACK 780]

28 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If his plan was to refuel in Mexico when he gave instructions to 305 in the PNW why ask for the dirty configuration? That configuration has only two rationales, to make it jumpable and to stretch out the search zone. If his plan was to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico neither of these apply. It makes no sense to ask for it.  

It makes perfect sense.

Cooper initially wanted the airstairs lowered inflight and I believe gave the dirty configuration to be used when the stairs were lowered not the entire flight,,, it was misunderstood.

When Reno was in play Cooper wanted the airstairs lowered on takeoff and that would also mean flying dirty from takeoff.

Before Reno and after Reno,, different..

[haggarknew 5]

28 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If his plan was to refuel in Mexico when he gave instructions to 305 in the PNW why ask for the dirty configuration? That configuration has only two rationales, to make it jumpable and to stretch out the search zone. If his plan was to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico neither of these apply. It makes no sense to ask for it.  

I'm thinking 3 rationales. Make it jumpable, stretch the search area, and burn fuel. 

 

[FLYJACK 780]

23 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

The whole thing stinks of "get in the air going south and make them think we are flying for a LONG time." Barring actually knowing Cooper's thoughts I can't think of a simpler more elegant reasoning.

No chance,,, there is no way Cooper gave a demand destination that HE knew was impossible and would be rejected,,, So, Cooper must have believed Mexico to refuel was achievable when he made his initial demand.. it was not a ruse. No way.

There are only two options,, Cooper miscalculated the distance flying dirty all the way or his demand was misunderstood...

He had aviation experience and knew about refuelling so it is very unlikely he miscalculate,,,  He was misunderstood

[FLYJACK 780]

26 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Yeah that's a good point. He didn't really have any tactical reason to spill the beans on his jump configuration if he was wanting to jump hours later.

It wasn't a secret that he was going to jump he ordered parachutes..

Rat said they accidentally retracted the landing gear after takeoff then put it back down,, Cooper didn't complain..

Edited 11 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 24]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No chance,,, there is no way Cooper gave a demand destination that HE knew was impossible and would be rejected,,, So, Cooper must have believed Mexico to refuel was achievable when he made his initial demand.. it was not a ruse. No way.

There are only two options,, Cooper miscalculated the distance flying dirty all the way or his demand was misunderstood...

He had aviation experience and knew about refuelling so it is very unlikely he miscalculate,,,  He was misunderstood

Reno talk comes after he asks for the dirty configuration. It’s the dirty configuration that caused the conversation. 

When he asked for the dirty configuration he was planning to land in Mexico according to your theory. If he plans to land in Mexico there no reason to ask for any alternate configuration. 

The timing doesn’t work. 

[olemisscub 566]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It wasn't a secret that he was going to jump he ordered parachutes..

Still not seeing a reason for him to say all of that if he's still hours away from jumping. 

[FLYJACK 780]

16 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Reno talk comes after he asks for the dirty configuration. It’s the dirty configuration that caused the conversation. 

When he asked for the dirty configuration he was planning to land in Mexico according to your theory. If he plans to land in Mexico there no reason to ask for any alternate configuration. 

The timing doesn’t work. 

My theory is Cooper really requested the dirty config to be used WHEN the airstars were lowered inflight by the stew...  His initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight. The crew misunderstood via Tina.

When Reno was in play it all changes, he wanted aistairs lowered on takeoff and that means flying dirty. form takeoff.

In the air he was to give a path and have the stew lower the airstairs.

[FLYJACK 780]

18 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Still not seeing a reason for him to say all of that if he's still hours away from jumping. 

I don't see an issue, he is telling the crew how to configure the plane for speed when the stew lowers the airstairs inflight.. Telling them in advance means he doesn't have to explain it later when he wants to jump.

[Kamkisky 24]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My theory is Cooper really requested the dirty config to be used WHEN the airstars were lowered inflight by the stew...  His initial demand was airstairs lowered inflight. The crew misunderstood via Tina.

When Reno was in play it all changes, he wanted aistairs lowered on takeoff and that means flying dirty. form takeoff.

In the air he was to give a path and have the stew lower the airstairs.

Why is he giving *any* demands in the PNW about airstairs or configuration if he plans to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico?  

[lxchilton 4]

50 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No chance,,, there is no way Cooper gave a demand destination that HE knew was impossible and would be rejected,,, So, Cooper must have believed Mexico to refuel was achievable when he made his initial demand.. it was not a ruse. No way.

There are only two options,, Cooper miscalculated the distance flying dirty all the way or his demand was misunderstood...

He had aviation experience and knew about refuelling so it is very unlikely he miscalculate,,,  He was misunderstood

I'm not saying that he made the demand not knowing that it was impossible, just that his reason for mentioning Mexico is to make it seem like he wasn't leaving the plane any time soon. That's the con. Once they tell him that won't work and he is able to secure another destination southish that's long far enough away that the possible search area would be impossible to cover, he's fine with it. 

It's possible that he was misunderstood and/or the notes and transcripts we have are somewhat off in terms of exactly what transpired, but I don't think it's more likely than not that they misunderstood him in a way that suggests something other than assumptions that more closely fit the facts. 

The aviation experience thing is tenuous. I'll admit he was familiar with being on airplanes 110%, but I am not sure that he knew about them from a pilot or crew member level. Our boy was a paratrooper, plain and simple*.

*This is a theory! A supposition!

[lxchilton 4]

45 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Reno talk comes after he asks for the dirty configuration. It’s the dirty configuration that caused the conversation. 

When he asked for the dirty configuration he was planning to land in Mexico according to your theory. If he plans to land in Mexico there no reason to ask for any alternate configuration. 

The timing doesn’t work. 

If he had demands about the flight configuration he would have been clear. I don't think a huge change from the known narrative like when the gear was to come down, etc. would be buried under the available facts and info we have. 

If that's what he wanted he would have said, I want to take off with the door in this position, fly for this long, open the door, gear and flaps go down at this point, etc. 

That's not just going on in his head because that wouldn't get it done and it's not going to be verbalized and then be completely MIA in the transcripts. 

[FLYJACK 780]

11 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Why is he giving *any* demands in the PNW about airstairs or configuration if he plans to be on the plane when it lands in Mexico?  

Why not.. He initially said airstairs lowered inflight by stew.. he did not give any path other than anywhere in Mexico.

 

[FLYJACK 780]

4 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

If he had demands about the flight configuration he would have been clear. I don't think a huge change from the known narrative like when the gear was to come down, etc. would be buried under the available facts and info we have. 

If that's what he wanted he would have said, I want to take off with the door in this position, fly for this long, open the door, gear and flaps go down at this point, etc. 

That's not just going on in his head because that wouldn't get it done and it's not going to be verbalized and then be completely MIA in the transcripts. 

No,, He told Tina the config,, she relayed it to the crew,,, there is a note in the Files that they trying to figure it out.. 

One word can change the entire meaning... He never said fly the entire way "dirty"... 

[FLYJACK 780]

12 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

I'm not saying that he made the demand not knowing that it was impossible, just that his reason for mentioning Mexico is to make it seem like he wasn't leaving the plane any time soon. That's the con. Once they tell him that won't work and he is able to secure another destination southish that's long far enough away that the possible search area would be impossible to cover, he's fine with it. 

It's possible that he was misunderstood and/or the notes and transcripts we have are somewhat off in terms of exactly what transpired, but I don't think it's more likely than not that they misunderstood him in a way that suggests something other than assumptions that more closely fit the facts. 

The aviation experience thing is tenuous. I'll admit he was familiar with being on airplanes 110%, but I am not sure that he knew about them from a pilot or crew member level. Our boy was a paratrooper, plain and simple*.

*This is a theory! A supposition!

That does not make sense,,, the demand would have to be rejected and renegotiated,, there is no advantage to this there is no con.

You only have two options,, Cooper either miscalculated the range dirty or he was misunderstood.  and he knew about refuelling... he knew flaps,, he had aviation knowledge.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Robert99 64]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

BS... ZERO evidence he had a compass,, even if he did it wouldn't make a difference.

The plane actually flew approximately..  204 degrees then about 153 degrees..

FlyJack, do you understand the following terms?

What are MAGNETIC headings?

What are TRUE headings?

How are SECTIONAL LINES aligned?

[FLYJACK 780]

5 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, do you understand the following terms?

What are MAGNETIC headings?

What are TRUE headings?

How are SECTIONAL LINES aligned?

 

Do you understand a non sequitur..

The point is the plane didn't fly straight south.. it flew SSW and SSE..

Edited 9 hours ago by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 4]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

That does not make sense,,, the demand would have to be rejected and renegotiated,, there is no advantage to this there is no con.

You only have two options,, Cooper either miscalculated the range dirty or he was misunderstood.  and he knew about refuelling... he knew flaps,, he had aviation knowledge.

 

He knew enough to say flaps at 15 and gear down, but that doesn't mean he was correct in his assumptions. He could have had first hand knowledge of those things or he could have talked to someone who had; Cooper might have been in Vietnam and had friends and contacts who were hands on with the 727s overseas without having any actual experience with them himself. They lower the flaps to 30 degrees later on because they're going to fast; it's another example of him knowing a lingo but maybe not understanding it. 

You can look up the range of a 727, but not understand what would affect it adversely. 

I think he would have had to renegotiate the demand if he was banking on his calculations being correct. That didn't happen; he presented an option and eventually settled on something that was quite unlike his original demand but for the heading.

If Cooper was misunderstood, why on earth was he silent? It doesn't make any sense that he would suffer in silence if it was so impactful to his original plan. I can't do the mental gymnastics to get there.