DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 779]

4 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

You don’t have anything until it’s produced. This applies to anything in the vortex. If you’re that bothered by the stance Ryan continues to express on his lives about the height, then bring the goods NOW and potentially sway his opinion on the matter or don’t. That’s certainly your prerogative. But maybe just put a pin in this until the receipts are on record? Because as it stands now… you two are clearly at loggerheads on the issue and any further debate at this point is just beating a dead horse.

Nicky, you have the world backwards,, there is no debate.

Ryan is making the claim that Cooper can't be under 5-10".. that is not proven and not rational.. it is an opinion with no logical argument given the evidence. 

My position is NOT that Cooper IS under 5-10" but that he could be...

Ryan can have any opinion he wants even wrong ones.. the burden is on him to prove his position. It happens that I have the nuclear bomb that blows it into dust.. and I will use it when the time is right.

[FLYJACK 779]

3 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

I think your own version conflicts with your above statement. By the time they take off from SeaTac they’ve agreed to Reno. In your version this new agreement is what causes Cooper to change plans and jump early (before Mexico). This only makes them flying west from the airport worse. If Cooper is like oh crap change of plans I got to bail soon, west is a death sentence. Once they make the coast he is toast or he has to tell them to fly back inland…which is my point. A parajacker looking to jump can’t have them flying the coast.
 

There is zero reason he’d accept the plane flying straight towards the ocean at take off. 

Let’s test that…can anyone name a single reason a parajacker wearing a chute looking to jump soon would want to fly directly to the ocean after just agreeing to Reno? 

wrong...

V27 goes Southwest not West then South down the coast.

In those conditions Cooper would not know which path they were on..

But the point is Cooper gave ZERO indication, preference or acknowledgement for any path...  

Cooper did not know where the plane would be...  his jump spot was not preplanned.

This is really not difficult. 

The argument has been that V23 was the only path the plane could have taken... so Cooper didn't have to give a path direction.. that is provably false. DONE

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 20]

22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

wrong...

V27 goes Southwest not West

 

Like I said, it's damn near due west. Cooper would be able to tell the plane was heading to the coast right after takeoff.

Reno is south.

No parajacker wants the coast. That makes no sense. 

There's what the cockpit and headquarters was thinking, not understanding the situation, and there is what Cooper wanted and was thinking. Cooper is the guy with the bomb. He is going to win. He wanted south, he never said or negotiated anything directly west. This is all straight forward stuff. 

[FLYJACK 779]

40 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

 

Like I said, it's damn near due west. Cooper would be able to tell the plane was heading to the coast right after takeoff.

Reno is south.

No parajacker wants the coast. That makes no sense. 

There's what the cockpit and headquarters was thinking, not understanding the situation, and there is what Cooper wanted and was thinking. Cooper is the guy with the bomb. He is going to win. He wanted south, he never said or negotiated anything directly west. This is all straight forward stuff. 

They would have taken V187 to V27,,,  not straight to the coast.

Cooper would not know where he was..

 

Edited 4 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Robert99 64]

19 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Ryan - you said on tonight’s live that both V23 and V27 “go out south from Seattle.” It’s at the 41 minute mark. This was part of your point that a Cooper didn’t give enough instructions and they could have taken the alternative route of V27. 

vfrmap.com

I’m not an aviation person. What I see on this map is that V27 takes the plane from SeaTac to Ocean Shores, WA. That’s not south. It’s damn near due west. Cooper is wearing a parachute. The coast means death to him. He accepts a plane flying straight west why? 

Technically you’re right, they could have gone that way. They could have gone north too. Both are not the agreed upon direction.

Cooper was clear, no coast airports and only airports to the south. The idea he was going to be cool with the plane going west after just negotiating south I don’t understand and I see no evidence for it.

West is also the worst direction for Cooper. 

My point is, they discussed it in the cockpit but it’s not what Cooper demanded or agreed to. There’s no evidence he would have accepted it, there’s plenty of evidence he wouldn’t have. 

 

 

 

Kamkisky is correct. 

Using the OleMiss map, V27 would require the airliner to fly on a heading of 227 degrees magnetic when leaving Seattle.  Ignoring the wind correction factor, the 22 degrees east variation must be ADDED to the 227 to obtain the true heading of the aircraft.  These values are clearly shown on the map. 

The true heading of the aircraft on V27 would be 227 + 22 = 249 degrees true.  True west is 270 degrees.

V27 goes west from the Seattle VORTAC to the Hoquiam VORTAC which is located on a very narrow piece of land (about 2 miles wide) with the Pacific Ocean on the west side and the bay at Hoquiam on the east side.

V27 then goes essentially straight south from the Hoquiam VORTAC to a point south of the latitude where the airliner turned toward Reno.

V27 is ALWAYS very near to the Pacific Ocean and actually OVER the Pacific for substantial distances.

The actual IFR low level charts that the airliner would have been using are available on Sluggo's site and they clearly support the above.  I suspect that OleMiss can post additional VFR segments that they also support the above. 

I would suggest that FlyJack make some effort to understand what he is talking about before he starts pontificating.

[olemisscub 565]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Nicky, you have the world backwards,, there is no debate.

Ryan is making the claim that Cooper can't be under 5-10".. that is not proven and not rational.. it is an opinion with no logical argument given the evidence. 

My position is NOT that Cooper IS under 5-10" but that he could be...

Ryan can have any opinion he wants even wrong ones.. the burden is on him to prove his position. It happens that I have the nuclear bomb that blows it into dust.. and I will use it when the time is right.

How does one PROVE an opinion that is being made about something that isn’t provable? Until we know who Cooper is for certain, everyone’s opinion on his physical features can never be more than an opinion. 

And it’s remarkable you don’t realize how completely foolish a statement like this is: “It is an opinion with no logical argument given the evidence.”

Really? What EVIDENCE do we have other than the witness statements? You’re telling me that it’s NOT logical for me, or anyone else, to believe that Cooper was likely around six feet tall when our four witnesses who saw him standing said he was  “5’11, 6 feet, 6 feet, and 6’1+”

Again, these are OPINIONS. I don’t BELIEVE Cooper was under 5’10. I think he was closer to six feet tall. That’s not me saying that Cooper could NOT have been 5’9. I’m merely saying that I DON’T BELIEVE he was under 5’10.

 

[FLYJACK 779]

24 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

How does one PROVE an opinion that is being made about something that isn’t provable? Until we know who Cooper is for certain, everyone’s opinion on his physical features can never be more than an opinion. 

And it’s remarkable you don’t realize how completely foolish a statement like this is: “It is an opinion with no logical argument given the evidence.”

Really? What EVIDENCE do we have other than the witness statements? You’re telling me that it’s NOT logical for me, or anyone else, to believe that Cooper was likely around six feet tall when our four witnesses who saw him standing said he was  “5’11, 6 feet, 6 feet, and 6’1+”

Again, these are OPINIONS. I don’t BELIEVE Cooper was under 5’10. I think he was closer to six feet tall. That’s not me saying that Cooper could NOT have been 5’9. I’m merely saying that I DON’T BELIEVE he was under 5’10.

 

It is irrational for you to claim Cooper can't be under 5-10"...  based on the evidence.

The FBI used 5-8" as the lower bound..

Two of those witnesses did not know he was the hijacker and could not identify him again.,,  Flo saw him standing before boarding and he was known to be the hijacker,, and Tina said 5-10-6'...  

Mitchell at 6-2" said he was way smaller,,, his build was medium according to most witnesses,, his weight was about 160 from male passengers,, Stews about 170..   that isn't a 6' medium build..  

Mitchell and Gregory had Cooper at 5-9" sitting,, that does not mean they were wrong.

You consistently fail to account for self reported height vs height in shoes..

and you have misapplied witness height recall accuracy....

So, you have an opinion without a rational argument,, you just ignore the evidence and cherry pick and distort...

I have no issue with an opinion for Cooper being 6',, I highly doubt it but I would never rule it out... YOU have ruled out Cooper under 5-10".. it is irrational based on the evidence.

This goes for any suspect...

 

Edited 3 hours ago by FLYJACK

[georger 269]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You need to read the files..

Cite the files you think explains V23 . 

[Nicholas Broughton 83]

I was talking to somebody that lives directly under V27. He said that hardly any air traffic ever uses it. It’s a safe bet that given Northwest's routes, none of the flight crew had ever even used V27 but knew V23 very well, so I'd take V23 as the pilot all day if I have something crazy going on in the back. This is a picture of all southbound SEA traffic. It heads down V23 or further east to Klamath Falls. The person I spoke with lives in the blue dot on the left under V27. We have no way of knowing if Cooper knew this or not…. but if he did his homework then he’d understand that them taking V23 was pretty much a forgone conclusion. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 779]

28 minutes ago, georger said:

Cite the files you think explains V23 . 

Find them yourself

[FLYJACK 779]

6 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

I was talking to somebody that lives directly under V27. He said that hardly any air traffic ever uses it. It’s a safe bet that given Northwest's routes, none of the flight crew had ever even used V27 but knew V23 very well, so I'd take V23 as the pilot all day if I have something crazy going on in the back. This is a picture of all southbound SEA traffic. It heads down V23 or further east to Klamath Falls. The person I spoke with lives in the blue dot on the left under V27. It’s unknown if Cooper knew this but if he did his homework then he’d know that then taking V23 was a pretty safe bet. 

They discussed using it extensively,,,,  so it was a legit option.

Nice try though...

 

Why is there such a denial over this obvious fact..

 

[Nicholas Broughton 83]

9 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

This is the gap. Yes, they discussed it. They didn’t understand what the hell was going on. They didn’t know why he wanted to be depressurized. They were talking crazy.

People are arguing from the cockpit’s point of view. What I’m saying is from Cooper’s point of view.

Reno. Agreed. That’s where the plane will fly to. 

The plane takes off and goes directly west. WTF? No. Cooper can’t jump at the ocean. Flying west defeats his entire escape plan. There’s zero, and I mean that in the absolutist sense, there is zero reason for him to accept that. Not one. It’s not what he just agreed to. It’s funny stuff. It’s a damn good way to get the cockpit door opened and be staring down the barrel of a gun. 

Kaminsky gets it. This was a first of its kind emergency situation here. Of course they are going to do their due diligence by weighing the options to determine the best route to take under the circumstances. Both altitude Victor airway options would be discussed, that’s a given. That doesn’t make V27 any more viable. Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100. 

[georger 269]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Find them yourself

I did - years ago! Since you had no role whatever in the Cooper hijacking I will take it you actually dont know jack shit about it! Your dictator style is a clue ... 

[FLYJACK 779]

8 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Kaminsky gets it. This was a first of its kind emergency situation here. Of course they are going to do their due diligence by weighing the options to determine the best route to take under the circumstances. Both altitude Victor airway options would be discussed, that’s a given. That doesn’t make V27 any more viable. Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100. 

BS

[georger 269]

16 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Kaminsky gets it. This was a first of its kind emergency situation here. Of course they are going to do their due diligence by weighing the options to determine the best route to take under the circumstances. Both altitude Victor airway options would be discussed, that’s a given. That doesn’t make V27 any more viable. Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100. 

Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100. 

There it is. There had to be a discussion. 

Edited 54 minutes ago by georger

[FLYJACK 779]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

I did - years ago! Since you had no role whatever in the Cooper hijacking I will take it you actually dont know jack shit about it! Your dictator style is a clue ... 

Who cares,, you haven't added anything but crap in this case in over a decade..

[georger 269]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

BS

I knew the day would come when you would be telling actual witnesses they are full of shit and only you are correct!

Its pretty funny....

Edited 57 minutes ago by georger

[georger 269]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Who cares,, you haven't added anything but crap in this case in over a decade..

You are quick! You have already replied and I havent even posted! Its pretty funny.  

[georger 269]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Who cares,, you haven't added anything but crap in this case in over a decade..

Precisely. Nobody cares. You finally got something right.

[FLYJACK 779]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

I knew the day would come when you would telling actual witnesses they are full of shit and only you are correct!

Its pretty funny....

Ammerman doesn't know the discussion between Cooper, the crew and GC... you know the evidence.

His opinion is a generalization. Not very relevant.

[Nicholas Broughton 83]

1 minute ago, georger said:

Cliff Ammerman said almost anybody would take V23 in that situation. If this exact scenario played out 100 times, they are more likely then not selecting V23 100/100. 

There it is.

Who are we to argue with the air traffic controller who was on duty that night and handled 305? Other expert opinions hold immense weight when they validate Fly’s confirmation bias, IE Leonard Palmer or the FBI. But when they don’t he just straight up ignores them! 

[Nicholas Broughton 83]

3 minutes ago, georger said:

You are quick! You have already replied and I havent even posted! Its pretty funny.  

In the midst of a family emergency no less….

[FLYJACK 779]

Just now, Nicholas Broughton said:

Who are we to argue with the air traffic controller who was on duty that night and handled 305? Other expert opinions hold immense weight when they validate Fly’s confirmation bias, IE Leonard Palmer or the FBI. But when they don’t he just straight up ignores them! 

Ammerman's knowledge about the hijacking is limited,, He doesn't know about the discussions between Cooper, the crew and GC... 

His opinion is a generalization,, it is not really relevant...

The coast WAS seriously discussed it was an option...

The claim that the only option was V23 is complete nonsense.

They didn't even have to take a Victor Airway..

 

Palmer was the lead geologist on the TBAR money investigation, he concluded that the money rolled along the bottom based on the rounded off of the money. Doesn't prove it but it is a valid theory. 

You claim a guy making generalized statements without knowledge of the Cooper/Crew/GC Comms is a fact...

Not even remotely close to analogous...

If you wanted to avoid populated areas the coast WAS the best choice.

The argument isn't which path should or did they take, it is would Cooper know where the plane would be when he jumped and the answer is NO..

[FLYJACK 779]

10 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

In the midst of a family emergency no less….

Don't go there,, you have no idea..

[Kamkisky 20]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

They would have taken V187 to V27,,,  not straight to the coast.

Cooper would not know where he was..

 

This is documented?

V187 takes the plane to Astoria, still the coast. It's definitely more southwest. It ain't south though, and any layman with a map could tell you it's not on the way to Reno.