DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 785]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Planes fly routes: common knowledge. A hijacked plane is not allowed to wander all over the place and probably not allowed to stray very far from a predictable route. Again common knowledge. 305 is NOT going to be allowed to fly out over the open ocean! Common knowledge.

Cooper knows he is going to be flying south and will intersect the Columbia and Portland metro first, before anything else. He started to get ready to jump the moment chutes were brought on board even before the plane was airborne! 

This isnt rocket science! It is the most likely scenario if Cooper wants to land near Portland. In reality this is Cooper's first good opportunity to jump. Or Cooper can wait a jump later, further south. I appears he wanted and used a known target - Portland.

Its no more complicated than that, unless you are trying to claim Cooper was a Martian and didnt know what planet he was on! ?

This isnt rocket science!

Completely false,,  and you of all people should know better,, you are not a newbie.

If you actually read the transcripts the crew wanted to fly coastal and were given open airspace to fly where they wanted to,, they settled on V23...

 

But that isn't the point,, the point is Cooper had no for-knowledge for a path and gave no directions other than than south...  that indicates he did not target an LZ.. add to that the chute had a 113 sq mile LZ itself.

Edited August 16 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Completely false,,  and you of all people should know better,, you are not a newbie.

If you actually read the transcripts the crew wanted to fly coastal and were given open airspace to fly where they wanted to,, they settled on V23...

 

But that isn't the point,, the point is Cooper had no for-knowledge for a path and gave no directions other than than south...  that indicates he did not target an LZ.. add to that the chute had a 113 sq mile LZ itself.

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

[FLYJACK 785]

52 minutes ago, georger said:

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

they settled on V23...

Yes, and so what... not the point.

Point is Cooper never gave any directions or path...  other than South and the plane could been almost anywhere...  Cooper did not predetermine his LZ..

Why is this so difficult for you.

[FLYJACK 785]

Cooper had zero input on V23... 

 

[Robert99 64]

19 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Completely false,,  and you of all people should know better,, you are not a newbie.

If you actually read the transcripts the crew wanted to fly coastal and were given open airspace to fly where they wanted to,, they settled on V23...

 

But that isn't the point,, the point is Cooper had no for-knowledge for a path and gave no directions other than than south...  that indicates he did not target an LZ.. add to that the chute had a 113 sq mile LZ itself.

The flight crew was specifically told not to fly over the ocean by Soderlind in Minneapolis.  

In selecting a route south, the flight crew needed to consider radio communications capabilities, radio navigational aids availability, terrain clearance, and other such factors.  For most of those factors the minimum altitude was 10,000 feet above sea level which was the same altitude Cooper told the crew to fly at.

And V-23 was the logical choice for the flight south from Seattle.  

[FLYJACK 785]

27 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

The flight crew was specifically told not to fly over the ocean by Soderlind in Minneapolis.  

In selecting a route south, the flight crew needed to consider radio communications capabilities, radio navigational aids availability, terrain clearance, and other such factors.  For most of those factors the minimum altitude was 10,000 feet above sea level which was the same altitude Cooper told the crew to fly at.

And V-23 was the logical choice for the flight south from Seattle.  

Not true,, coastal V27 is West of V23 and could have been taken without actually going out over the Ocean.. GC suggested V23..

I never heard that Soderlind rejected going over the Ocean.. where did that come from,, could be true I just don't remember it. But, V23 came from GC.. 

but the point is being missed...  

Cooper rejected large airports for refuelling,, that indicates he was still thinking he was going to be on the plane when it landed. This was before Reno was agreed to.

The counter argument is that he didn't want to fly over the Ocean which makes sense in general but doesn't work in this case. Cooper never gave any path, the plane could have flown any route and even over the Ocean and Cooper wouldn't know...  It could have flown V27 or even V23 to those cities..  

Cooper rejecting large airports adds to other evidence that Cooper initially was going to jump further south.

The argument that Cooper preplanned or targeted his LZ just doesn't fit the evidence..  He didn't know or direct a path and a pilot emergency bailout rig would give him a 113 sq mi LZ...

Conclusion, he initially wanted to jump further south and when Reno was in play for some reason he decided to jump early and it was not a targeted LZ. He probably had a rough idea where he was... southern Washington but that was about it..

[Kamkisky 30]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Not true,, coastal V27 is West of V23 and could have been taken without actually going out over the Ocean.. GC suggested V23..

I never heard that Soderlind rejected going over the Ocean.. where did that come from,, could be true I just don't remember it. But, V23 came from GC.. 

but the point is being missed...  

Cooper rejected large airports for refuelling,, that indicates he was still thinking he was going to be on the plane when it landed. This was before Reno was agreed to.

The counter argument is that he didn't want to fly over the Ocean which makes sense in general but doesn't work in this case. Cooper never gave any path, the plane could have flown any route and even over the Ocean and Cooper wouldn't know...  It could have flown V27 or even V23 to those cities..  

Cooper rejecting large airports adds to other evidence that Cooper initially was going to jump further south.

The argument that Cooper preplanned or targeted his LZ just doesn't fit the evidence..  He didn't know or direct a path and a pilot emergency bailout rig would give him a 113 sq mi LZ...

Conclusion, he initially wanted to jump further south and when Reno was in play for some reason he decided to jump early and it was not a targeted LZ. He probably had a rough idea where he was... southern Washington but that was about it..

Which airports did he deny? SF/LA/any others? Which airports did he suggest? 

[olemisscub 582]

33 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Which airports did he deny? SF/LA/any others? Which airports did he suggest? 

Phoenix was the only alternative he suggested. 

[Kamkisky 30]

Suggested Phoenix. 

Said no to SF/LA. 

Agreed to Reno.

Is this it? 

There’s a pattern here. 

 

[FLYJACK 785]

5 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Suggested Phoenix. 

Said no to SF/LA. 

Agreed to Reno.

Is this it? 

There’s a pattern here. 

 

No, not accurate.

[Kamkisky 30]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, not accurate.

That’s why I’m asking. What’s off about it?

[Robert99 64]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not true,, coastal V27 is West of V23 and could have been taken without actually going out over the Ocean.. GC suggested V23..

I never heard that Soderlind rejected going over the Ocean.. where did that come from,, could be true I just don't remember it. But, V23 came from GC.. 

Who is GC?

When the aircraft was sitting on the ground in Seattle it was already on V-23.  When it took off, it passed within a few hundred feet of the Seattle VORTAC which was located between the southern ends of the two Seattle runways.  V-23 is the segment between the Seattle VORTAC and the Malay Intersection.  From the Malay Intersection V-23 goes to the Battleground VORTAC and then continues south from there. 

Why go further west when the crew didn't know if they had enough fuel to make it to Reno until they were in the Portland area.  That is why the crew was passing fuel flow information to the performance engineers in Minneapolis until they were assured that they could make it to Reno.

[olemisscub 582]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

No, not accurate.

It better be

[FLYJACK 785]

39 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It better be

You aren't wrong just incomplete.

[Kamkisky 30]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You aren't wrong just incomplete.

Fill us in please.
 

The current data on the board leans in a certain direction. 

[FLYJACK 785]

10 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Fill us in please.
 

The current data on the board leans in a certain direction. 

I have a family emergency so no time right now.. I might be gone for a while..

You guys can look it up.. double check it

Off the top of my head Rataczak said SF/LA/San Diego Cooper rejected as too big

Files also mentioned Sacramento

Cooper suggested Phoenix,, rejected as too far

Cooper suggested Yuma and Reno, preferred Reno..  (Yuma is 100 miles closer to Seattle than Phoenix)

Settled on Reno.

 

They could have taken V23 to those California cities or V27 down the coast.. V27 is actually better as it is less populated.

Cooper rejected those larger cities because he was still thinking he would be on the plane.. 

 

[olemisscub 582]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Cooper suggested Phoenix,, rejected as too far

Cooper suggested Yuma and Reno, preferred Reno..  (Yuma is 100 miles closer to Seattle than Phoenix)

Settled on Reno.

 

This one was a tough one to parse for my book and I ultimately decided to go with Reno coming from Soderlind, even though I'm open to the possibility that this came from Cooper and I may change it. There seems to be ample evidence from the teletype, Soderlind's notes, and Tosaw all pointing to NWO coming up with it and Cooper "accepting" Reno. He wouldn't be accepting something if it was his idea, right?

Tosaw (who was thick as fleas with Soderlind apparently)

 

In the teletypes, we have Cooper only suggesting Phoenix at 6:25. Then later just past 7:00, Soderlind is back and is bringing up Reno, which Cooper accepts.

 

 

In Soderlind's notes we also see Cooper agreeing to it. Again, I don't think you'd be categorized as agreeing to something that was your suggestion. They wouldn't write that "the hijacker agreed to go to Mexico City" because that was his demand. Also, "without much, if any, objection." Why would he be objecting to something that was one of his suggestions?

 

On the flip side, we have Tina and Rat's 302s. Although there is a part of me that wonders if there something that was lost in translation and/or the 302 is just poorly written. How could Cooper state the aircraft could make Yuma or Reno? He didn't know it couldn't get to Mexico, so how would he have known? Also, why would Cooper suggest Yuma after Phoenix was rejected? That's only like 150 miles from Phoenix. 

 

But then again, Rat's 302 indicates that Cooper's alternatives were Reno, Yuma, and Sacramento. 

 

If Nicky is able to secure the actual audio recording from the hijacking, obviously that would help us a tremendous amount because the info in the teletypes on this particular topic is somewhat confusing. 

fwiw, I ended up writing it like this because I decided to go with the teletype being that it was in real-time. As I said, I'm open to changing it though. 

 

Edited August 18 by olemisscub

[Kamkisky 30]

Cooper rejects the coast three times (SF/LA/SD). 

Cooper suggests and/or accepts Reno/Yuma/Phoenix.

All coastal airports rejected. Only inland airports (all directly south) were acceptable/suggested. 

Hmmm...I wonder why.

Maybe it's the size of the airport, although you won't really expect Cooper to say "sorry I'm going to jump out of the back here soon so I don't want the plane going near the coast so please just fly due south over Portland." 

The evidence aligns with the, rather obvious conclusion, that Cooper didn't want the coast. Further, his 10k ft configuration means they can't go east over the mountains. There's only one way the plane can go...south. And what's south...farmland north of Portland. And the farmland has lights, unlike the forest above it. And what does Cooper do...he waits almost a half and hour while flying over the dark forest before he jumps right at the first metro lights of the farmland. It's all to much to be random. It's a plan and it worked. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

Cooper rejects the coast three times (SF/LA/SD). 

Cooper suggests and/or accepts Reno/Yuma/Phoenix.

All coastal airports rejected. Only inland airports (all directly south) were acceptable/suggested. 

Hmmm...I wonder why.

Maybe it's the size of the airport, although you won't really expect Cooper to say "sorry I'm going to jump out of the back here soon so I don't want the plane going near the coast so please just fly due south over Portland." 

The evidence aligns with the, rather obvious conclusion, that Cooper didn't want the coast. Further, his 10k ft configuration means they can't go east over the mountains. There's only one way the plane can go...south. And what's south...farmland north of Portland. And the farmland has lights, unlike the forest above it. And what does Cooper do...he waits almost a half and hour while flying over the dark forest before he jumps right at the first metro lights of the farmland. It's all to much to be random. It's a plan and it worked. 

absurd, flights to SoCal don't go down the coast.. they use V23..

Your opinion doesn't even make sense.

Edited August 18 by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 10]

2 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Cooper rejects the coast three times (SF/LA/SD). 

Cooper suggests and/or accepts Reno/Yuma/Phoenix.

All coastal airports rejected. Only inland airports (all directly south) were acceptable/suggested. 

Hmmm...I wonder why.

Maybe it's the size of the airport, although you won't really expect Cooper to say "sorry I'm going to jump out of the back here soon so I don't want the plane going near the coast so please just fly due south over Portland." 

The evidence aligns with the, rather obvious conclusion, that Cooper didn't want the coast. Further, his 10k ft configuration means they can't go east over the mountains. There's only one way the plane can go...south. And what's south...farmland north of Portland. And the farmland has lights, unlike the forest above it. And what does Cooper do...he waits almost a half and hour while flying over the dark forest before he jumps right at the first metro lights of the farmland. It's all to much to be random. It's a plan and it worked. 

I feel like there are three options here, both of which would be supported by your evidence:

a) Cooper knows exactly what v23 is and how it will get him flying near to Portland and knows that it is possible they would take the same path if they were going to go to LA but he wants to suggest that he is going to jump at a much later point

OR

b) Cooper has no idea about v23 and the map in his head of the PNW and California is based of what it seems like a flightpath might be to SF or LA; he just doesn't want to be near the ocean/thinks that they will be flying west first

OR

c) Cooper is just making sure people believe that he is either going to jump at a much later point or not even jump at all. The ruse of Mexico might suggest that he plans to somehow escape once they are on the ground in Mexico. It's all noise rather than an exacting plan. Just go south and make sure they think I am invested in decisions that won't matter until way after I am gone.

I'm going with C. Since Cooper doesn't every give any real indication of were they should be flying I think he just wants people to think he's jumping later and making a comment like "it's too busy there" suggests that he is going to be on the plane for a long time. All these decisions are in the service of making people think he has no plans to be off the plane until hours and hours later than he is.

 

[Kamkisky 30]

7 hours ago, lxchilton said:

I feel like there are three options here, both of which would be supported by your evidence:

a) Cooper knows exactly what v23 is and how it will get him flying near to Portland and knows that it is possible they would take the same path if they were going to go to LA but he wants to suggest that he is going to jump at a much later point

OR

b) Cooper has no idea about v23 and the map in his head of the PNW and California is based of what it seems like a flightpath might be to SF or LA; he just doesn't want to be near the ocean/thinks that they will be flying west first

OR

c) Cooper is just making sure people believe that he is either going to jump at a much later point or not even jump at all. The ruse of Mexico might suggest that he plans to somehow escape once they are on the ground in Mexico. It's all noise rather than an exacting plan. Just go south and make sure they think I am invested in decisions that won't matter until way after I am gone.

I'm going with C. Since Cooper doesn't every give any real indication of were they should be flying I think he just wants people to think he's jumping later and making a comment like "it's too busy there" suggests that he is going to be on the plane for a long time. All these decisions are in the service of making people think he has no plans to be off the plane until hours and hours later than he is.

 

I agree that he has a goal of stretching out the search zone by giving destinations as far south as possible. I also agree he had no intention of ever being on the plane the next time it landed (hell...he is wearing a parachute at take off in Seattle). It comes down to if he knew about V23 or not, and I don't think it matters much. Either he did, and he gave instructions that would force them to use it...or he didn't and he gave them instructions that would force them to use it. Either way, the plane is going south towards Portland and that's all he really cares about regarding the flight path. No coast, no mountains, not north...the rest works itself out. 

[lxchilton 10]

8 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

I agree that he has a goal of stretching out the search zone by giving destinations as far south as possible. I also agree he had no intention of ever being on the plane the next time it landed (hell...he is wearing a parachute at take off in Seattle). It comes down to if he knew about V23 or not, and I don't think it matters much. Either he did, and he gave instructions that would force them to use it...or he didn't and he gave them instructions that would force them to use it. Either way, the plane is going south towards Portland and that's all he really cares about regarding the flight path. No coast, no mountains, not north...the rest works itself out. 

For sure. It's hard to really pin anything down when the end result is that everything worked out overall. There are so few pieces of information that point in only one direction. 

[olemisscub 582]

10 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

and he gave them instructions that would force them to use it.

Cooper didn't do anything that would have forced them to take V-23, that's the problem. V27 was a viable option that would have actually made some logical sense for them to take since it would have avoided flying over populated areas. 

[georger 271]

12 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Cooper didn't do anything that would have forced them to take V-23, that's the problem. V27 was a viable option that would have actually made some logical sense for them to take since it would have avoided flying over populated areas. 

Ammerman must know something about this ? Somebody made the decision!

Edited August 20 by georger

[Nicholas Broughton 87]

17 hours ago, georger said:

Ammerman must know something about this ? Somebody made the decision!

From the flight path panel discussion at CooperCon 2021 with Cliff Ammerman. I went back and listened to my recording which is up on the Facebook group. Here are the relevant excerpts. Darren: “What do you think about that Cliff, do you think it’s possible that he actually did dictate the flight path based on the conditions he demanded the plane fly.” Cliff: “Yes certainly, If you’re going to fly south at ten thousand feet, Victor 23 would be the, the option that I think almost anybody would take. Just because you could fly at much lower altitude.” Darren: “Do you think he knew the plane would fly Victor 23?” Marty Andrade: “Based on that answer, I would have to say yes.” Marty Andrade: “I’m going to direct this to Cliff. Below 10,000 feet how many airways could they have picked, Victory 23 but there should be another one right?” Cliff: “There is another airway to the west called Victor 165 that still would be fairly low. Ugh, this was before the time that they had designed an airway for Portland basically direct to kalamath falls. Now there were high altitude airways but you had to be above 18k feet and obviously DB Cooper didn’t want to do that. So if they would of come back a few years later then this, he probably would of turned at Portland and gone directly to kalamath falls because it’s a more direct route to Reno. But then the min on the route out there is much higher. So my guess would of been then, that if DB Cooper wanted it low, he would of told them to stay on Victor 23 until they can hit further south and that’s just speculation.” Darren: “Well now that you have that information Marty what’s your answer?” Marty: “No I would say that given that, we know from the radio transcript that they were put on Victor 23, um if there really isn’t another option for them at the time then that’s the route they would of been on.” No mention of V27 from Cliff. 

Edited August 20 by Nicholas Broughton