DB Cooper

[olemisscub 582]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

What did Cooper do that was not rational??

Other hijackers did some crazy stuff,,, most had psychological issues,,

but I don't see anything Cooper did being "irrational"..

He had a goal and carried it out...

His hijacking was very measured and rational other than perhaps jumping with a bailout rig...

 

[dudeman17 376]

On 8/12/2025 at 6:01 AM, FLYJACK said:

Dudeman is wrong.

 

And what is your parachuting experience sir? Thumbing through a book - a book I referred you to - , finding outlier circumstances and using them to try to discredit the predominant circumstances? Umm, no.

I explained the fallacies in your generalizing "bailout rig" - and I am not wrong. Some of the canopies that might have been in those rigs are steerable. Indeed, I believe the packing card we have a photo of from one of Hayden's rigs lists the canopy as a 26' conical manufactured in 1957. I have landed a 26' conical manufactured in 1956 and it was steerable.

I am not wrong in that the mains of that era did not have a whole lot better performance than the reserves. I have jumped most if not all of them - 35' T-10's, 28' flat circulars, Para Commanders, Piglets, 26' conical reserve, 24' whatever-it-was reserve with 4-line release, and whatever else that I can't remember. What have you jumped?

Yes, the military did have freefall rigs, but the majority of military parachuting in that day was static-line paratroopers. Ironically, if Cooper was aware of or a participant in the military freefall operations you cite, then he was far more knowledgeable a parachutist than any of you want to give him credit for.

I made my first 40 or so jumps on the exact type of gear that Cooper was requesting. I am thoroughly familiar with the type of bailout rigs he received. I have known countless pilots who wore them. I have put them on countless people, including my own mom, taking observer rides and briefed them on their use. And you?

You seem to want to paint observer rigs as some sort of medieval torture device that if the opening doesn't kill you, the landing surely will, and something that only an uninformed moron would jump. Not so. God only knows how many jumpers, pilots, crewmen... have landed those things and come out of it unscathed. I used to know a guy who jumped one of those reserves as a main because it was cheap and he liked to pull really low.

I stand behind all the statements I have made about gear as not wrong. The only thing I got wrong was I overlooked the military's preponderance to triple document everything, thus their mains having packing cards. And I accurately described the difference in why those cards are there vs reserve packing cards. Indeed, many sport jumpers of that day used military surplus gear. The packing card pockets on their rigs would be empty.

I did, repeatedly, answer your question. And the answer is the variable I described. I don't know who Mike Davis is, apparently an experienced jumper. Ryan says that he said he would jump it, and you dismissed it out of hand, as though you know better than the man himself what he would do. I also said that if I was in Cooper's position on the way to Reno, I would jump it too.

 

On 8/12/2025 at 5:24 AM, FLYJACK said:

take a hike

 

I would be easy to take umbrage at that and tell you to take a flying flip at a rolling doughnut yourself, But I'm really just kind of befuddled. What the hell happened to you? I've been reading your posts for a long time, and I've had nothing but respect for you. I think everyone here regards you as a thorough, detailed researcher. But you used to be objective, and interested in truth. But now, you'e caustic, stubborn, and quite frankly, an asshole. You have strong confirmation bias, you are at  times dishonest, you personally attack and try to discredit people you disagree with, and you change your position mid-argument just to disagree. All things that you have accused others of. That makes you a hypocrite.

Seriously, what happened to you? Maybe you just need to step away from the keyboard for a moment, go outside, get some fresh air, exercise, and circulation.

Edited August 15 by dudeman17

[dudeman17 376]

On 8/12/2025 at 8:41 PM, Kamkisky said:

I'm thinking about a communication device. Some options in that era could weigh up to 25-30 pounds... Under this scenario he is jumping with the 22 pounds of cash plus at least that much more. Let's say 50 pounds all in besides his body weight and the parachute. Is that doable?

 

Yeah. 50 pounds would have some effect, but not prohibitive. What did Cooper weigh, somewhere like 170-175 or so? So how many 220 pound pilots or crewmen might wear such a rig?

[dudeman17 376]

On 8/13/2025 at 5:57 AM, FLYJACK said:

Bailout rigs are emergency chutes not intended to be used.

 

Actually, they are intended to be used in the event of an emergency. And they are designed to suit their purpose when they are used.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 6:51 AM, FLYJACK said:

Emrich was to grab all four from Issaquah when he was informed that they had secured the two backs and to only send the fronts.. turns out the two backs from Hayden were pilot bailout rigs and could not attach fronts. So, Dudeman is wrong, not everyone understands the difference

 

Here you are hypocritically conflating and misrepresenting my statements. Back when it was being discussed, I said that the people procuring the rigs probably didn't know what they were looking for and just got what they could get their hands on. My more recent statements were a hypothetical that a lot of laymen would understand that there are differences, and if you put the two in front of them, they could probably guess which is which.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 6:51 AM, FLYJACK said:

if Emrich was grabbing ALL FOUR he would not have grabbed backs and fronts that could not be attached...  He would have grabbed freefall rigs and front reserves.. not pilot bailout rigs.

The reason Cooper got incompatible fronts and backs is because they came from different sources.

 

This part you have correct.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 9:12 AM, FLYJACK said:

Dudeman claimed any idiot would know,, this is completely false.

 

Here you are intentionally misrepresenting with intent to discredit. I did not say 'any idiot', I said 'many people'. Hypocrite.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 9:12 AM, FLYJACK said:

and all I was asking was.. would any jumpers use a old pilot bailout rig in those conditions, they all said no problem making that jump, but none have indicated they would use a legit pilot bailout rig

 

I think just recently you have Mike Davis and me...

 

On 8/13/2025 at 10:56 AM, FLYJACK said:

Cooper complaining about the missing D Rings,, that would indicate he did not know they were pilot bailout rigs

 

That would actually lean towards indicating the opposite.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 10:56 AM, FLYJACK said:

I was trying to get feedback from jumpers to determine the psychological delta between jumping in those conditions with a pilot bailout VS main/reserve.

 

And you have gotten some feedback. You just reject it because it apparently doesn't conform to your 'confirmation bias'. Perhaps someone who apparently spends most of their life in front of a computer screen just can't grasp the mentality of people who go outside and do risky adventurous things.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 12:42 PM, FLYJACK said:

Dudeman insulted me [...] from a position of ignorance.. he was wrong claiming everyone knows the difference between those rigs..  He is wrong about those older pilot bailout rigs.. he was wrong about packing cards in military mains...  He was silent on military manual main/reserves.... 

and he never actually answered my question.

 

Sowwy I huwt youw feewings; yes you are ignorant on parachutes and the type of people who do such things; no I wasn't because that's not what I said; no I'm not; ya kinda got me there, minor detail corrected; no, I commented on that;

and yes I did, several times.

 

On 8/13/2025 at 4:03 PM, FLYJACK said:

I still really have trouble accepting a jumper would make Cooper's jump intentionally in those conditions with a pilot bailout rig..  not a main/reserve he asked for or modified sport rig.

 

Because that's what they gave him. Black Death, Maynard - that's why.

-----------------

Sir, you are not orders of magnitude more intelligent than everyone else. You do not have the market cornered on logic and reason. But your arrogance is astounding.

You should really consider you recent behavior, going back at least to your fairly recent arguments about how the money got rounded, and everything since. It is really disappointing. I don't want to say that you're losing your credibility, but you seem to be intentionally wadding it up and throwing it away.

[olemisscub 582]

6 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

I don't know who Mike Davis is, apparently an experienced jumper.

Former 82nd Airborne Paratrooper of the year and recreational skydiver. He spoke at Cooper Con last year and I’ve done a few shows with him on my channel.

 

[FLYJACK 785]

Dudeman17,, you are wrong on several things.

You initially insulted me instead of defending your position... you now follow up with more insults. You need to look in the mirror.

 

So, I am not interested in anything you have to say. 

 

FYI, Palmer and the FBI concluded the money rounded off by rolling along the bottom of the River... I believe this is more likely.. so you got that wrong as well.

Edited August 15 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

Johnny Kirkley,,, Air America kicker discussion..

 

https://youtu.be/RPV-PNY2BHE

Edited August 15 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

FYI, Palmer and the FBI concluded the money rounded off by rolling along the bottom of the River... I believe this is more likely.. so you got that wrong as well.

Like in a Looney Tunes cartoon! When you have no better explanation always go with the default sermon .... backed up by personal attacks. Werks every time! Its a stage act. Leaves people baffled and mesmerized every time! Like at the carnival...

The TRUTH IS: it wasnt a "conclusion" at all. It was the only thing Palmer and the FBI could come with, on the spur of the moment. And, it was STUPID on any account!

Come on Flyjack. Dont be stupid.

The Palmer/FBI account never happened because: PIGS DONT FLY! DUHHHHHHHHH!

Edited August 15 by georger

[Robert99 64]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Dudeman17,, you are wrong on several things.

You initially insulted me instead of defending your position... you now follow up with more insults. You need to look in the mirror.

 

So, I am not interested in anything you have to say. 

 

FYI, Palmer and the FBI concluded the money rounded off by rolling along the bottom of the River... I believe this is more likely.. so you got that wrong as well.

If the money was ever on the bottom of the Columbia River, and there is nothing to suggest it ever was, then it stayed on the bottom.  There is no magic way for it to get off the bottom and up on the Tena Bar beach.

[dudeman17 376]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

you are wrong on several things

 

Nope.

 

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You initially insulted me instead of defending your position.

 

Nope. My comments were not meant to insult you. You insistently maintain a false view of emergency rigs. After unsuccessfully trying several times to correct you, my comments were to state that people who have a more accurate view of them might make decisions about using them that don't make sense to you.

 

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

FYI, Palmer and the FBI concluded the money rounded off by rolling along the bottom of the River... I believe this is more likely.. so you got that wrong as well.

 

Nope. I do not have an opinion one way or the other how the money got rounded. I was referring to the way you handled the conversation.

 

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

you now follow up with more insults

 

Nope again. I am objectively callin' it like I see it. From someone who until recently had nothing but the highest respect and regard for you, I beseech you to review and reconsider your recent attitude toward everybody.

 

10 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You need to look in the mirror.

 

Other than being an ugly old fart, I'm comfortable with what I see there.

[FLYJACK 785]

4 hours ago, georger said:

Like in a Looney Tunes cartoon! When you have no better explanation always go with the default sermon .... backed up by personal attacks. Werks every time! Its a stage act. Leaves people baffled and mesmerized every time! Like at the carnival...

The TRUTH IS: it wasnt a "conclusion" at all. It was the only thing Palmer and the FBI could come with, on the spur of the moment. And, it was STUPID on any account!

Come on Flyjack. Dont be stupid.

The Palmer/FBI account never happened because: PIGS DONT FLY! DUHHHHHHHHH!

Uh, no, it is valid theory.

I think it is more likely that erosion in situ..  

Palmer is a geologist, he specifically acknowledged the rounded erosion as indicative of rolling..

That doesn't prove it, but it is a legit theory.

[FLYJACK 785]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

If the money was ever on the bottom of the Columbia River, and there is nothing to suggest it ever was, then it stayed on the bottom.  There is no magic way for it to get off the bottom and up on the Tena Bar beach.

Sure, it can...  it can roll along the bottom to its spot if the river is higher than that spot.. also theorized by Palmer/FBI... it happened during a high water event.

Wait, I am not talking to you..

[FLYJACK 785]

update,,

I spoke with a friend who is a current commercial pilot,, I asked him about the 727 stairs affecting the speed, I gave him the stair angle, dimensions and speed of 170 knots..

He said it is very difficult to calculate a number.. but he estimated at least 15-20 knots slowdown..

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, dudeman17 said:

Nope. My comments were not meant to insult you. You insistently maintain a false view of emergency rigs. After unsuccessfully trying several times to correct you, my comments were to state that people who have a more accurate view of them might make decisions about using them that don't make sense to you.

Of course it was an insult...  I don't have a false view of emergency rigs,, I repeatedly said there are two options... You said anybody would know the difference which is provably false. They gave Cooper the wrong chutes so they didn't know.. Ryan didn't understand, I didn't understand until recently,,, nobody in the case understood it and brought up the issue. 

Jumping with the mains/reserve Cooper requested is not the same as with old pilot bailout rigs.. I was trying to establish the psychological delta.. you made assumptions and insulted me..

Then you double down on insults confirming your attitude...  pretty funny you insult me repeatedly then claim you aren't.. 

I don't have any interest in anything you have say.. about anything. You are completely irrelevant to this case.

 

Just put me on ignore.. we are done, I will do my own research on this elsewhere.

 

[monk71 6]

Two points stand out that seem to contradict standard folklore about this case:

Tina describes him as an "executive type", but didn't Flo instead describe him as a laborer?

Most people telling the Cooper story describe him as desperate.

I'm not doubting the veracity of this page. I just find fascinating these diametrically opposed views and how it epitomizes the case.

[olemisscub 582]

8 hours ago, monk71 said:

Two points stand out that seem to contradict standard folklore about this case:

Tina describes him as an "executive type", but didn't Flo instead describe him as a laborer?

Most people telling the Cooper story describe him as desperate.

I'm not doubting the veracity of this page. I just find fascinating these diametrically opposed views and how it epitomizes the case.

That was Lysne, the ticket agent, who said that Cooper struck him as more of a "laboring man as opposed to an office worker".

Reading Flo's 302, she described him as a polite man who spoke in a serious but calm and sometimes uninterested manner. At one point, she felt he was acting childish, though overall he came across as normal in his demeanor.

[CooperNWO305 161]

Could bring publicity for the case. 
 

https://www.wpri.com/news/elections/political-newcomer-eric-ulis-announces-run-for-ri-lieutenant-governor-in-2026/

[FLYJACK 785]

Main parachutes are "premeditated",, indented to be used

Emergency chutes (Cooper's pilot bailout rigs) are "unpremeditated"  (typo) not intended to be used

[FLYJACK 785]

Crew indicated that they wanted to take the coast. later decided V23

 

Crew was not clear on flight configuration..  

 

Wind Seattle from the South...  Cooper didn't know the wind where he jumped..

 

Poor visibility,,, can't assume Cooper could identify his location from the air.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

Flight tracked by Air Force and Seattle ATC...  No alternate FP...

[FLYJACK 785]

FBI used 5-8" lower bound for suspects... Elsinore cards..

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Could bring publicity for the case. 
 

https://www.wpri.com/news/elections/political-newcomer-eric-ulis-announces-run-for-ri-lieutenant-governor-in-2026/

What the...

[Kamkisky 30]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Crew indicated that they wanted to take the coast. later decided V23

 

Crew was not clear on flight configuration..  

 

Wind Seattle from the South...  Cooper didn't know the wind where he jumped..

 

Poor visibility,,, can't assume Cooper could identify his location from the air.

 

 

 

 

Yes. They thought about it. And clearly they weren’t thinking like a parajacker, they didn’t even know why he wanted to be unpressurized. Just because they hadn’t put the dots together doesn’t mean Cooper would have been cool with a coastal route. There is exactly zero reason why a parajacker would want a costly route over the rugged PNW coast at night. Not a single reason. There however many very good reason to tell the pilots no if they tried it. 

[FLYJACK 785]

25 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Yes. They thought about it. And clearly they weren’t thinking like a parajacker, they didn’t even know why he wanted to be unpressurized. Just because they hadn’t put the dots together doesn’t mean Cooper would have been cool with a coastal route. There is exactly zero reason why a parajacker would want a costly route over the rugged PNW coast at night. Not a single reason. There however many very good reason to tell the pilots no if they tried it. 

How would he know if they took a coastal route.. he wouldn't.. dark and cloudy..

seems like a huge risk if you had a specific PNW LZ in mind..

and if initially he wasn't jumping until South of the US border he wouldn't care what path they took...

Cooper would have given a specific path if he had a specific PNW LZ...  he didn't

and for god's sake SOUTH is not a path..

 

Edited August 16 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

How would he know if they took a coastal route.. he wouldn't.. dark and cloudy..

seems like a huge risk if you had a specific PNW LZ in mind..

and if initially he wasn't jumping until South of the US border he wouldn't care what path they took...

Cooper would have given a specific path if he had a specific PNW LZ...  he didn't

and for god's sake SOUTH is not a path..

 

Planes fly routes: common knowledge. A hijacked plane is not allowed to wander all over the place and probably not allowed to stray very far from a predictable route. Again common knowledge. 305 is NOT going to be allowed to fly out over the open ocean! Common knowledge.

Cooper knows he is going to be flying south and will intersect the Columbia and Portland metro first, before anything else. He started to get ready to jump the moment chutes were brought on board even before the plane was airborne! 

This isnt rocket science! It is the most likely scenario if Cooper wants to land near Portland. In reality this is Cooper's first good opportunity to jump. Or Cooper can wait a jump later, further south. I appears he wanted and used a known target - Portland.

Its no more complicated than that, unless you are trying to claim Cooper was a Martian and didnt know what planet he was on! ?

This isnt rocket science!

Edited August 16 by georger