DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 785]

9 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

I’m claiming on the priority list it didn’t rank high enough to bother either way. It was good enough. Just like the money bag was good enough. Just like Reno was good enough. Just like taking off with the aft stairs up was good enough. There’s a pattern here.

What wasn’t good enough was waiting around for a flight plan…nah, they need to pick that **** up in the air. He prioritized things. He was wanting to get off the damn ground. I don’t blame him. Money is green. Chute looks like it will open. Done deal. Next up.  

Exactly, you have no idea..  you actually miss the point...  and just make it up.

He demanded mains/reserve...  but received pilot bailout rigs and unusable front reserves..  I guess the guys tasked with obtaining the chutes didn't know the difference either..

Since he DID jump with a bailout rig.. there are only two options.

Either,,

He knew it was a pilot bailout rig and jumped anyway...

Or,,

He didn't realize it was a bailout rig...

 

Pilot bailout rigs from that era,, did not steer, opened hard, landed hard and increased the risk of injury.. So, targeting of any LZ is out the window.. you land where the drift takes you, up to 113 sq miles..  higher risk with no reserve. Bailout rigs are emergency chutes not intended to be used.

Is that what Cooper chose?  

Would any jumper choose that jump in those conditions with a legit pilot bailout rig?

 

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 785]

It is clear that some of you just don't grasp the issue here...

But it brings up another point that never made sense..

Cossey was contacted about chutes and offered his at Issaquah. ALL FOUR. Cossey had nothing to do with securing Hayden's chutes.

Emrich was to grab all four from Issaquah when he was informed that they had secured the two backs and to only send the fronts.. turns out the two backs from Hayden were pilot bailout rigs and could not attach fronts. So, Dudeman is wrong, not everyone understands the difference... Cossey was unaware of Hayden until a day or day's later.. Cossey initially believed HIS back chutes from Issaquah were sent to Cooper.

Problem,, if Emrich was grabbing ALL FOUR he would not have grabbed backs and fronts that could not be attached...  He would have grabbed freefall rigs and front reserves.. not pilot bailout rigs.

The reason Cooper got incompatible fronts and backs is because they came from different sources.

Now, later Cossey claimed in an interview the B4 Cooper left behind was a freefall rig... and returned to him.

That is a tacit admission that he believed HIS sport rig was sent to Cooper.

 

[lxchilton 10]

57 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Exactly, you have no idea..  you actually miss the point...  and just make it up.

He demanded mains/reserve...  but received pilot bailout rigs and unusable front reserves..  I guess the guys tasked with obtaining the chutes didn't know the difference either..

Since he DID jump with a bailout rig.. there are only two options.

Either,,

He knew it was a pilot bailout rig and jumped anyway...

Or,,

He didn't realize it was a bailout rig...

 

Pilot bailout rigs from that era,, did not steer, opened hard, landed hard and increased the risk of injury.. So, targeting of any LZ is out the window.. you land where the drift takes you, up to 113 sq miles..  higher risk with no reserve. Bailout rigs are emergency chutes not intended to be used.

Is that what Cooper chose?  

Would any jumper choose that jump in those conditions with a legit pilot bailout rig?

I mean we are ALL making it up beyond the salient facts that we know: Cooper received parachutes and jumped from the plane. There are so many more factors in play here than this binary option. Maybe Cooper's level of experience would not have had him preferring the chute setup that he received, but we already know that he has been delayed enough to completely ignore the fact that they gave him the money in the wrong container.

In a vacuum you might be able to home in on the nuances of Cooper's decisions, but there is so much noise here that it seems like a fools errand. 

The guy knew something about parachutes and he didn't bring his own. He's probably military. He's 50ish, he probably jumped in WWII and/or Korea (money is on and for me), he might have jumped in Vietnam as well.

Why go further than this when it's all supposition at that point?

[FLYJACK 785]

27 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

I mean we are ALL making it up beyond the salient facts that we know: Cooper received parachutes and jumped from the plane. There are so many more factors in play here than this binary option. Maybe Cooper's level of experience would not have had him preferring the chute setup that he received, but we already know that he has been delayed enough to completely ignore the fact that they gave him the money in the wrong container.

In a vacuum you might be able to home in on the nuances of Cooper's decisions, but there is so much noise here that it seems like a fools errand. 

The guy knew something about parachutes and he didn't bring his own. He's probably military. He's 50ish, he probably jumped in WWII and/or Korea (money is on and for me), he might have jumped in Vietnam as well.

Why go further than this when it's all supposition at that point?

Not ALL speculation is created equal...  this case is rife with garbage speculation, people just make up anything..

Speculation has its place but bad speculation is detrimental.

To claim he said "get the show on the road" proves he knew he had bailout rigs and jumped with them instead of demanding the main/reserves is utter nonsense..

And it misses the issue entirely.

 

If Cooper knew he had pilot bailout rigs then he did not target an LZ.. not even close.

and it tells us he was willing to take a bigger risk with his life and payload.

If you are randomly jumping into a wet and dark night once you land you need to get out of there..  Intentionally jumping with a bailout rig would tell us something about his character and psychology..

I doubt any rational jumper would do that jump in those conditions with only a legit old pilot bailout rig..  (not a modified freefall rig)

Even Hayden claimed he would NEVER use it....  it was only to meet regulations.

 

If you guys fail to understand that, it is your problem.

[lxchilton 10]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not ALL speculation is created equal...  this case is rife with garbage speculation, people just make up anything..

Speculation has its place but bad speculation is detrimental.

To claim he said "get the show on the road" proves he knew he had bailout rigs and jumped with them instead of demanding the main/reserves is utter nonsense..

And it misses the issue entirely.

 

If Cooper knew he had pilot bailout rigs then he did not target an LZ.. not even close.

and it tells us he was willing to take a bigger risk with his life and payload.

If you are randomly jumping into a wet and dark night once you land you need to get out of there..  Intentionally jumping with a bailout rig would tell us something about his character and psychology..

I doubt any rational jumper would do that jump in those conditions with only a legit old pilot bailout rig..  (not a modified freefall rig)

Even Hayden claimed he would NEVER use it....  it was only to meet regulations.

 

If you guys fail to understand that, it is your problem.

There are certainly levels of speculation; the scale goes from "Cooper never jumped and hid on the plane/aliens/Tina was involved" all the way down to the very rational. 

I don't know how we qualify "bad" speculation exactly. For me it's a conscious counting of each decision we have to make for Cooper without knowing what decision he made or why he made it. 

Cooper being so antsy to get into the air again may have impacted his choices in terms of the gear he was provided. It might not have, but we cannot say that it didn't.

As for a landing zone, he definitely didn't have a pinpoint spot chosen, but the 10ish x 10ish mile area you have been mentioning is not at all bad if your plan is to jump out of the plane once you are getting close to civilization. Walking several miles on a chilly night is uh...less problematic than jumping out of a passenger jet in the same.

"I doubt any rational jumper would do that jump in those conditions with only a legit old pilot bailout rig."

Rational folks don't hijack passenger airplanes and plan to jump out of them.

"If you guys fail to understand that, it is your problem."

Why be confrontational? Everyone is talking, everyone has opinions, and none of us know. We all have to work within the confines of the unknown here and maybe one of the ways one of us takes it will lead to a person or a lead or a broken briefcase in the forest. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, lxchilton said:

There are certainly levels of speculation; the scale goes from "Cooper never jumped and hid on the plane/aliens/Tina was involved" all the way down to the very rational. 

I don't know how we qualify "bad" speculation exactly. For me it's a conscious counting of each decision we have to make for Cooper without knowing what decision he made or why he made it. 

Cooper being so antsy to get into the air again may have impacted his choices in terms of the gear he was provided. It might not have, but we cannot say that it didn't.

As for a landing zone, he definitely didn't have a pinpoint spot chosen, but the 10ish x 10ish mile area you have been mentioning is not at all bad if your plan is to jump out of the plane once you are getting close to civilization. Walking several miles on a chilly night is uh...less problematic than jumping out of a passenger jet in the same.

"I doubt any rational jumper would do that jump in those conditions with only a legit old pilot bailout rig."

Rational folks don't hijack passenger airplanes and plan to jump out of them.

"If you guys fail to understand that, it is your problem."

Why be confrontational? Everyone is talking, everyone has opinions, and none of us know. We all have to work within the confines of the unknown here and maybe one of the ways one of us takes it will lead to a person or a lead or a broken briefcase in the forest. 

because claiming Cooper said he wanted to "get the show on the road" is meaningless... and out of context. It is irrelevant to the issue.

We know he jumped with the bailout rig,,, the question is why if he demanded a main/reserve,,,, did he know it was a bailout rig or not... THAT IS THE ISSUE

Ryan didn't know the difference.. or that military manual main/reserves existed.

Dudeman claimed any idiot would know,, this is completely false.

Kamkisky claimed Cooper knew because he said "get the show on the road",, logical non-sequitur.

This is just noise.. it isn't serious intellectual inquiry.

 

So, it is clear that people do not really grasp this issue...  and using terrible assumptions to shut it down..

As usual, this will come up 2 years from now and everyone will be amazed nobody brought it up before.

 

I really do think this place is a waste of time and I don't really care if people don't get it... I do.

and all I was asking was.. would any jumpers use a old pilot bailout rig in those conditions, they all said no problem making that jump, but none have indicated they would use a legit pilot bailout rig...  no front reserve, no steer, hard open, hard landing and higher risk of injury... a legit 113 sq mi LZ..

 

So, if you guys don't think this is a legit issue then what are you doing here.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 30]

3 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

because claiming Cooper said he wanted to "get the show on the road" is meaningless... and out of context. It is irrelevant to the issue.

We know he jumped with the bailout rig,,, the question is why if he demanded a main/reserve,,,, did he know it was a bailout rig or not... THAT IS THE ISSUE

Ryan didn't know the difference.. or that military manual main/reserves existed.

Dudeman claimed any idiot would know,, this is completely false.

Kamkisky claimed Cooper knew because he said "get the show on the road",, logical non-sequitur.

This is just noise.. it isn't serious intellectual inquiry.

 

So, it is clear that people do not really grasp this issue...  and using terrible assumptions to shut it down..

As usual, this will come up 2 years from now and everyone will be amazed nobody brought it up before.

 

I really do think this place is a waste of time and I don't really care if people don't get it... I do.

and all I was asking was.. would any jumpers use a old pilot bailout rig in those conditions, they all said no problem making that jump, but none have indicated they would use a legit pilot bailout rig...  no front reserve, no steer, hard open, hard landing and higher risk of injury... a legit 113 sq mi LZ..

 

So, if you guys don't think this is a legit issue then what are you doing here.

 

 

 

 

Kamkisky claimed Cooper knew because he said "get the show on the road",, logical non-sequitur.

Thats not even remotely close to what I said.  People can read it.  

[lxchilton 10]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I really do think this place is a waste of time and I don't really care if people don't get it... I do.

At least it's an ethos.

[FLYJACK 785]

6 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Kamkisky claimed Cooper knew because he said "get the show on the road",, logical non-sequitur.

Thats not even remotely close to what I said.  People can read it.  

Yes, you missed the entire point...

If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig..  that is an assumption.

and I asked you how would he know,,, you have no idea...

The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,,  his "get the show on the road" statement is completely irrelevant.

Like I said ,, a waste of time.

 

[FLYJACK 785]

21 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

At least it's an ethos.

I have been doing this a long time,,  and have lost patience with low level thinking.

Save that for FB or Reddit..

 

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 10]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, you missed the entire point...

If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig..  that is an assumption.

and I asked you how would he know,,, you have no idea...

The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,,  his "get the show on the road" statement is completely irrelevant.

Like I said ,, a waste of time.

 

But isn't his anxiousness in terms of being on the ground a possible explanation for why he might not put up a fight? It really does seem like he didn't get what he wanted; it's plausible that he

a) was to worried about getting in the air ASAP to fight anything and decided to deal with what he had

b) was so sure of his ability to jump that he just didn't care

c) literally had no idea what he was doing

d) other

I think I agree with what you are saying in that the question is important, but there isn't a way to answer it without making a choice that is your own and not Cooper's. His "get the show on the road" energy is just as viable an answer as many others.

[FLYJACK 785]

54 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

But isn't his anxiousness in terms of being on the ground a possible explanation for why he might not put up a fight? It really does seem like he didn't get what he wanted; it's plausible that he

a) was to worried about getting in the air ASAP to fight anything and decided to deal with what he had

b) was so sure of his ability to jump that he just didn't care

c) literally had no idea what he was doing

d) other

I think I agree with what you are saying in that the question is important, but there isn't a way to answer it without making a choice that is your own and not Cooper's. His "get the show on the road" energy is just as viable an answer as many others.

His "show on the road" comment is irrelevant,,,  he was referring to having to wait to file a flight plan, then saying you can do it in the air...  That comment had a specific context, Cooper knew they didn't have to file on the ground, and it is a given that a hijacker would have some level of anxiety whether he made that statement or not.. So, Cooper's statement is really irrelevant to this issue.

We can reasonably expect a hijacker to be not wanting to waste time unnecessarily.. the comment is not a factor.

The inference is that rejecting the bailout rigs and demanding the mains/reserves he requested was a waste of time.. that would appear so if you didn't understand there was difference between those rigs.

So, this is actually more complex than people realize... which is why I lose patience...

Nobody really understood the pilot bailout rig vs the main/reserve Cooper asked for until I started digging into it..  this thing has bugged me for years..

The real vector is the psychological delta of using a bailout rig vs main/reserve...   which is why I asked about it and got ridiculed and dismissed...  that is common in this case. People just want to shut down what they don't understand.

In Tosaw's book he has Cooper complaining about the missing D Rings,, that would indicate he did not know they were pilot bailout rigs, however, that may be embellishment by Tosaw..

We have two options..

Cooper just didn't realize they were pilot bailout rigs and jumped anyway... that tells us he is not very experienced with parachutes.

Or..

He realized they were bailout rigs understood the difference and didn't think that difference was worth getting the right ones.. this requires more understanding of the differences, something nobody has brought up, and he was on the ground for about 1 hr 40 min regardless,, So, the delay to get the main/reserves would not be significant.

 

Further,, intentionally jumping with a pilot bailout rig instead of demanding the main/reserve he requested tells us something about Cooper's expectations and attitude for his own safety.

 

On balance, I default toward Cooper NOT realizing they were pilot bailout rigs.. that means little parachute experience and not familiar with pilot bailout rigs missing D rings.. and he didn't realize he was taking a bigger risk with the payload, potential injury, lack of reserve and LZ..  I just think it would not be a big deal to say,, give me the main/reserve I demanded.

But, it could be he knew..  if so, that changes things.

I was trying to get feedback from jumpers to determine the psychological delta between jumping in those conditions with a pilot bailout VS main/reserve.

 

Anybody who still thinks this is irrelevant is dead to me..

It is self evidence that a hijacker would want the best rig for a successful jump..  the main/reserve he had demanded.

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[lxchilton 10]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Anybody who still thinks this is irrelevant is dead to me..

I absolutely don't think it's irrelevant, however, it's the choosing something Cooper might have said to mean exactly one thing that's problematic in this line of inquiry. If he is upset about the lack of d rings and says "where are my damn d rings?!" that doesn't automatically mean that he knew something or did not. His outburst is just that and we (me, other humans) often say things in anger or annoyance that don't necessarily jibe with the realities of our lives or professions.

I think it is important to look at these disconnections between what Cooper is presented as vs what actions he took and how those together muddy the picture of who he ultimately was, but I think it's dangerous to take them and tie them up into a singular truth about Cooper when they are connected with the whole of the hijacking and not just one singular moment.

"His "show on the road" comment is irrelevant,,,  he was referring to having to wait to file a flight plan, then saying you can do it in the air..."

It could have been, but he is clearly shaken and angered by the time it has taken to fuel the plane; it could have everything to do with that and ultimately nothing to do with his understanding of IFA, etc. This is another example of being sure of something in the case when there is no way to be. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I wouldn't present it as "irrelevant" to any and all.

"We have two options..

Cooper just didn't realize they were pilot bailout rigs and jumped anyway... that tells us he is not very experienced with parachutes.

Or..

He realized they were bailout rigs understood the difference and didn't think that difference was worth getting the right ones.."

I think those are two general buckets you could create, but inside them there are so many possibilities that you can only narrow down to generalizations. 

"(...)this requires more understanding of the differences, something nobody has brought up" 

Does it? Maybe. It seems like there are a lot of semantic battles here with little substance to them. 

"(...)and he was on the ground for about 1 hr 40 min regardless,, So, the delay to get the main/reserves would not be significant."

That 1 hr 40 min is caused by serious delays on the ground and he was delayed getting into Seattle because of how long it took to get the chutes and cash...why would he suddenly be fine with extending the time when he is clearly, vocally upset about all the time that's already been wasted? He's convinced that someone is actively trying to sabotage him. The flight crew is as well.

"I was trying to get feedback from jumpers to determine the psychological delta between jumping in those conditions with a pilot bailout VS main/reserve."

Possibly useful, though none of those folks who might answer would (I assume) be the kind of person who would hijack a passenger jet. Also there's not going to be consensus and I wonder why some anecdotal information seems to be good enough for you while others are essentially dirt.

[olemisscub 582]

27 minutes ago, lxchilton said:

It seems like there are a lot of semantic battles here with little substance to them. 

 

It's quite common indeed. This is expected since Cooper is a very limited topic. Everything he said, which isn't much, has been dissected six ways to Sunday over the years by nerds like us. 

[Kamkisky 30]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, you missed the entire point...

If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig..  that is an assumption.

and I asked you how would he know,,, you have no idea...

The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,,  his "get the show on the road" statement is completely irrelevant.

Like I said ,, a waste of time.

 

If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig..  that is an assumption.

Don’t you see the leap you made? My good enough theory is agnostic on if he knew it was a bailout rig or not. There is no assumption. I make no claim to know. 

The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,, 

There’s no way to determine that from available data. It’s going to be a fruitless endeavor. 
 

It’s better to look at the pattern of behavior vs one little isolated detail. He did a lot of things that fit the good enough theory. That tells us about him. 

[FLYJACK 785]

3 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig..  that is an assumption.

Don’t you see the leap you made? My good enough theory is agnostic on if he knew it was a bailout rig or not. There is no assumption. I make no claim to know. 

The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,, 

There’s no way to determine that from available data. It’s going to be a fruitless endeavor. 
 

It’s better to look at the pattern of behavior vs one little isolated detail. He did a lot of things that fit the good enough theory. That tells us about him. 

I made the leap you made to make a point.. 

The "show on the road" argument requires the conclusion that Cooper knew they were bailout rigs..  

The "good enough" theory is similar, it assumes the conclusion that Cooper knew they were bailout rigs.. it isn't an argument.. it like saying he knew they were bailout rigs but used them anyway... 

You present an opinion as a conclusion with no argument.

 

[Kamkisky 30]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

I made the leap you made to make a point.. 

The "show on the road" argument requires the conclusion that Cooper knew they were bailout rigs..  

The "good enough" theory is similar, it assumes the conclusion that Cooper knew they were bailout rigs.. it isn't an argument.. it like saying he knew they were bailout rigs but used them anyway... 

You present an opinion as a conclusion with no argument.

 

Again, this is not the case. 
 

The good enough theory only states he found the parachute good enough to not ask for a different one. That’s it regarding the chute. 
 

He did the same good enough behaviors with the money bag, aft stairs at take off, Reno, switching to Tina, etc. He was flexible, focused on a goal and willing to bend if that help expedite his goal. Cooper only needs the money and a way to attach it, a chute, depressurization cabin, flaps/gear down, staying under 10k, a way to open the aft stairs and for the plane to go South. He wants those things as quickly as possible. Everything else is negotiable. He got those things and jumped. 

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, lxchilton said:

I absolutely don't think it's irrelevant, however, it's the choosing something Cooper might have said to mean exactly one thing that's problematic in this line of inquiry. If he is upset about the lack of d rings and says "where are my damn d rings?!" that doesn't automatically mean that he knew something or did not. His outburst is just that and we (me, other humans) often say things in anger or annoyance that don't necessarily jibe with the realities of our lives or professions.

I think it is important to look at these disconnections between what Cooper is presented as vs what actions he took and how those together muddy the picture of who he ultimately was, but I think it's dangerous to take them and tie them up into a singular truth about Cooper when they are connected with the whole of the hijacking and not just one singular moment.

"His "show on the road" comment is irrelevant,,,  he was referring to having to wait to file a flight plan, then saying you can do it in the air..."

It could have been, but he is clearly shaken and angered by the time it has taken to fuel the plane; it could have everything to do with that and ultimately nothing to do with his understanding of IFA, etc. This is another example of being sure of something in the case when there is no way to be. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I wouldn't present it as "irrelevant" to any and all.

 

"We have two options..

Cooper just didn't realize they were pilot bailout rigs and jumped anyway... that tells us he is not very experienced with parachutes.

Or..

He realized they were bailout rigs understood the difference and didn't think that difference was worth getting the right ones.."

I think those are two general buckets you could create, but inside them there are so many possibilities that you can only narrow down to generalizations. 

"(...)this requires more understanding of the differences, something nobody has brought up" 

Does it? Maybe. It seems like there are a lot of semantic battles here with little substance to them. 

"(...)and he was on the ground for about 1 hr 40 min regardless,, So, the delay to get the main/reserves would not be significant."

That 1 hr 40 min is caused by serious delays on the ground and he was delayed getting into Seattle because of how long it took to get the chutes and cash...why would he suddenly be fine with extending the time when he is clearly, vocally upset about all the time that's already been wasted? He's convinced that someone is actively trying to sabotage him. The flight crew is as well.

"I was trying to get feedback from jumpers to determine the psychological delta between jumping in those conditions with a pilot bailout VS main/reserve."

Possibly useful, though none of those folks who might answer would (I assume) be the kind of person who would hijack a passenger jet. Also there's not going to be consensus and I wonder why some anecdotal information seems to be good enough for you while others are essentially dirt.

 

Well, I don't know if Tosaw is accurate or exaggerating,, if he is accurate that indicates Cooper didn't understand they were bailout rigs because he didn't say hey these are the wrong type, these aren't what I asked for, these aren't mains these are bailout rigs,, no, he only complained about the D rings.. He never indicated he knew they were bailout rigs. But, Tosaw may not be accurate.

Cooper's show on the road comment is irrelevant to this subject.. not only is it out of context, it is a given that a hijacker wouldn't want to waste time unnecessary.. It is being used by proxy to claim Cooper knew the rigs were pilot bailouts,, it is not relevant, there is no cause effect here.. flawed logic.

There are differences between using  mains/reserves VS a pilot bailout rig..  beyond D rings..  If you don't understand that then you can't grasp this issue.

There were some fuelling delays on the ground but that doesn't preclude Cooper from demanding the chutes he asked for. He knew how far away McChord was..  

Cooper demanded the best rigs for a successful jump,, he didn't get those..

Over the years many jumpers have claimed it was a easily survivable jump,, I have never heard one say they would do it in those conditions in an old bailout rig..  they are different from a jumpers perspective.

You don't think that is valid question... can't help you there..

and Dudeman insulted me from a position of ignorance.. he was wrong claiming everyone knows the difference between those rigs.. Ryan didn't know, I didn't really know, most of the Cooper world didn't know,, the people who secured Cooper's rigs didn't know.. He is wrong about those older pilot bailout rigs.. they are not steerable, they have a higher injury rate, he was wrong about packing cards in military mains...  He was silent on military manual main/reserves....  they did exist.

and he never actually answered my question.

Jumping with a main/reserve is not the same as with a pilot bailout rig.

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

12 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Again, this is not the case. 
 

The good enough theory only states he found the parachute good enough to not ask for a different one. That’s it regarding the chute. 
 

He did the same good enough behaviors with the money bag, aft stairs at take off, Reno, switching to Tina, etc. He was flexible, focused on a goal and willing to bend if that help expedite his goal. Cooper only needs the money and a way to attach it, a chute, depressurization cabin, flaps/gear down, staying under 10k, a way to open the aft stairs and for the plane to go South. He wants those things as quickly as possible. Everything else is negotiable. He got those things and jumped. 

A money bag is not as crucial as a parachute.. false comparison..

Let me ask again.. because your conclusion is that he knew it was a bailout rig.

How do you know Cooper knew they were bailout rigs,,, what evidence?

[Kamkisky 30]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

A money bag is not as crucial as a parachute.. false comparison..

Let me ask again.. because your conclusion is that he knew it was a bailout rig.

How do you know Cooper knew they were bailout rigs,,, what evidence?

You're just not accepting the answer. I make no claim on this subject. I don't know if he knew it was a bailout rig or not. While that would tell us more about his parachuting knowledge there is no path to figuring it out without knowing who Cooper was. You can't get to that conclusion with the evidence at hand. 

I also am not ranking the items I mentioned, merely pointing out he accepted good enough several times. He was flexible. This points away from a highly planned special ops type operation, it also points towards someone who has done similar robbery/hostage things before. He knew what mattered and he stuck to those things and he knew time mattered and he pushed to go quickly. 

[lxchilton 10]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Well, I don't know if Tosaw is accurate or exaggerating,, if he is accurate that indicates Cooper didn't understand they were bailout rigs because he didn't say hey these are the wrong type, these aren't what I asked for, these aren't mains these are bailout rigs,, no, he only complained about the D rings.. He never indicated he knew they were bailout rigs. But, Tosaw may not be accurate.

Honestly, I agree with the first bit there!

That seems to suggest (if Tosaw is indeed not pulling this out of thin air) that Cooper was upset about something he expected, not realizing that he actually had a different kind of chute. Where I take that information is where we differ; my biggest thought here is it says Cooper wasn't a pilot or crew on an aircraft. He could easily have been a paratrooper and never used the bailout rig before. Regardless what I'm most interested in is what you think the binary of this situation is. Are there only two possible Coopers? Because he could be upset about d rings and also not understand the bailout vs mains situation and also be a very accomplished military paratrooper. 

I am dead set against him being a sport parachutist, but the military avenue seems wide open.

Where are you hoping the possible answers take you?

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

You're just not accepting the answer. I make no claim on this subject. I don't know if he knew it was a bailout rig or not. While that would tell us more about his parachuting knowledge there is no path to figuring it out without knowing who Cooper was. You can't get to that conclusion with the evidence at hand. 

I also am not ranking the items I mentioned, merely pointing out he accepted good enough several times. He was flexible. This points away from a highly planned special ops type operation, it also points towards someone who has done similar robbery/hostage things before. He knew what mattered and he stuck to those things and he knew time mattered and he pushed to go quickly. 

Ok, so now you make no claim that Cooper either knew or didn't..

then your "show on the road" "evidence" is irrelevant to deciding.

That is exactly where we started,, I said it is irrelevant... 

because it is, it does NOT tell us one way or the other.

 

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 30]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Ok, so now you make no claim that Cooper either knew or didn't..

then your "show on the road" "evidence" is irrelevant to deciding.

That is exactly where we started,, I said it is irrelevant... 

because it is, it does NOT tell us one way or the other.

 

You are hyper focused on one element. I’m looking at the pattern of behavior. That’s that gap here. 
 

If you can figure out what Cooper was thinking in the moments he saw the chutes that’d be great. I have no idea how you can do that. 

[FLYJACK 785]

21 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

You are hyper focused on one element. I’m looking at the pattern of behavior. That’s that gap here. 
 

If you can figure out what Cooper was thinking in the moments he saw the chutes that’d be great. I have no idea how you can do that. 

I was focused, you took the discussion sideways..

Regardless,, I am not claiming Cooper did or didn't know he had bailout rigs,, I lean towards he didn't know but want more evidence.. and either way there are ramifications.

I still really have trouble accepting a jumper would make Cooper's jump intentionally in those conditions with a pilot bailout rig..  not a main/reserve he asked for or modified sport rig.

 

 

Edited August 13 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

What did Cooper do that was not rational??

Other hijackers did some crazy stuff,,, most had psychological issues,,

but I don't see anything Cooper did being "irrational"..

He had a goal and carried it out...

His hijacking was very measured and rational other than perhaps jumping with a bailout rig...