DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

Quote

After the BASE jumpers killed the appeal of ordinary skydiving I have had to rely increasingly on literary means to impress women.

Well, georger's strategy is probably effective also:
"I am not FBI. I am not CIA. And I am not interested in you."

I wouldn't bet against that.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Hey 377: have you noticed that we occasionally hit the meter with a higher-than-typical-percentage of women on this thread? It's the lit. I counted 4 women here one day. Jumpers eat your heart out. And go read some Conrad.

Snow forgets that some women ARE jumpers...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

tom said

Quote

So Jo while I respect your efforts to find evidence that Duane was Cooper, in my mind a near-sighted guy does not hijack a plane blind

Your thoughts are all good Tom. I thought they should have been obvious, and was surprised the FBI didn't highlight probable eyesight issues in their profile.

If Cooper was 45 and still able to see well without glasses, does that tell us something about him as he ages?

At the very least, I would think the FBI would say "we're probably looking for someone who didn't need glasses at 45"

That would help narrow the suspect pool also?

For instance Hahneman did wear glasses? I wonder if he had them on during the hijack. Probably yes. That probably helped in id'ing him?

All the composites with the wraparound sunglasses probably steered people into thinking of Cooper as a glasses guy.

They should have just put the composite out with no glasses. Did they think he was wearing sunglasses all the time? If sunglasses were a disguise (who knows) why show the disguise?

They should have shown a drawing of the sunglasses (or picture of similar) just by itself. Like the tie and tie bar.

[TomKaye 1]

Snow,

All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version?

I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know....
Tom

[Orange1 0]

Quote

If Cooper was 45 and still able to see well without glasses, does that tell us something about him as he ages?

At the very least, I would think the FBI would say "we're probably looking for someone who didn't need glasses at 45"

That would help narrow the suspect pool also?

Well, unless he was wearing contact lenses. Although the use was not nearly as widespread as it is now, my mom for example was wearing (hard) contact lenses in 1971. Of course in those days it was a lot more hassle than these days of soft disposables, so before anyone jumps in to theorize I would say it would have been highly unlikely Cooper would have got contacts just for the jump if he wore glasses normally, partly because hard lenses need a period of adaptation before they are comfortable. The stewardess who saw him without sunglasses would surely have noticed if his eyes seemed red and uncomfortable.

fyi soft contacts were only made commercially available for the first time in 1971, so IF Cooper wore contacts it is most likely he wore hard ones. Hmmm... I wonder if the stews would have noticed if he had? I haven't seen anyone wear hard lenses for a long time but I seem to recall that they are visible up close.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Snow,

All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version?

I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know....
Tom

Yes, people jump with goggles over their glasses.
I should add one of the oldtimers (can't remember who it was) posted here though that skydiving goggles were not widely available at the time - people used other types and I am not sure how useful those would have been as over-glasses goggles.

If you wear contact lenses, and I would imagine this was exacerbated with hard ones, the chances of losing one or both lenses without goggles is high. (People have managed to not lose them, but if you as Cooper wore contacts you surely wouldn't want to take the chance.)
Anyhow Cooper could easily have had a pair of goggles somewhere, in an inside suit pocket or in his mysterious paper bag.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

uh oh, the conspiracy got me. I made a post that disappeared... so here it is again...

re Dan Cooper comics. Once you start looking there are many many places that Americans could have come into contact with them via French speakers. Like this bit from Snow's Project Delta link:

Quote

In August 1950 the United States sent a small military staff to Vietnam to assist the French in teaching Vietnam forces the use and maintenance of U.S. military equipment furnished under the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1949. Chiefly technicians, these advisers were not organized in regular military units but functioned as an extension of the U.S. diplomatic mission in Saigon to which they were assigned. By 1953 the United States had between two and three hundred military advisers in Vietnam.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 267]

Quote

tom said

Quote

So Jo while I respect your efforts to find evidence that Duane was Cooper, in my mind a near-sighted guy does not hijack a plane blind

Your thoughts are all good Tom. I thought they should have been obvious, and was surprised the FBI didn't highlight probable eyesight issues in their profile.

If Cooper was 45 and still able to see well without glasses, does that tell us something about him as he ages?

At the very least, I would think the FBI would say "we're probably looking for someone who didn't need glasses at 45"

That would help narrow the suspect pool also?

Reply>
I have wondered must paratroopers pass a vision test? Hobby skyjumpers? (Pilots we know about).
I would assume far sighted passes?

As Tom has pointed out, what appears at stake is
a far sighted ID of Tacoma, then Vancouver and
Portland coming up, also to be able to function
on the ground looking out windows. He was
also looking at magazines (reading them with
and without glasses on?). There is no evidence
his sunglasses were prescription glasses. Maybe he bypassed the instructions cards because he could not read them? There are countless enumerations.

His writing on the ticket does not appear abnormal in size or slant or structure, in fact very simple and without telltale visual issues.

The more we examine Duane the more things keep popping up which eliminate him, very basic facts
of physiology.

PKD, diabetes, his very high astuteness and intellect according to Jo, his basic biometrics, (his dna - FBI), his prison record and the fact he is in hiding which could have easily lead to detection given the right triggers, and now his vision.

It is beginning to look like Duane is the perfect non-Cooper candidate.

If that is true then no wonder the very strong Weber
Effect ... the Weber Effect must be quite strong to give the illusion of veracity. It must look very good
to shield the obvious.

Make no mistake about this, and I am sure by this
time the FBI has taken note:

Any real history of DB Cooper must now also
include Jo Weber because she has become a
significant part of the Cooper record, perhaps
even surpassing the actual story for some. No
record of the Coopr case is complete without mentioning Jo and Duane Weber. Jo Weber has
single-handedly seen to that, and Himmeslbach
let her through the door, as it were.

The Weber Effect encapsulates this entire phenominon.

Georger

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

I think French was used even in the late '60s, a lot?

Just read a quote from Daniel Ellsberg, talking about Vietnam officials:
"the top people spoke English, but the middle people spoke French"

GIs rarely spoke Vietnamese. I read a web page of a US civilian who went into a village then, and the children were astounded that a blond-haired American could speak Vietnamese. It was beyond their comprehension and the guy had fun with it.

Here's another quote:
"left Vietnam on 20 July 1969, having completed my tour. .... the Cambodian Army radio operators spoke only their native tongue and French, .."

Or this one:
"Vietnam Vets, Vietnam War, History of Vietnam - Guestbook
Apr 7, 2006 ... was with 92nd eng. batl. long-bien viet-nam 1968to 1969 co.c would like to .... I worked with Viet police and since I spoke French I could ..."

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

Quote

His writing on the ticket does not appear abnormal in size or slant or structure, in fact very simple and without telltale visual issues.

I'm pretty sure we know Cooper didn't write on the ticket?
(that was the ticket agent)

There are no samples of Cooper's writing.
We also don't know if the note was handwritten or typed. There are some claims in some articles, but Ckret has never confirmed?

[georger 267]

Quote

tom said

Quote

So Jo while I respect your efforts to find evidence that Duane was Cooper, in my mind a near-sighted guy does not hijack a plane blind

Your thoughts are all good Tom. I thought they should have been obvious, and was surprised the FBI didn't highlight probable eyesight issues in their profile.

If Cooper was 45 and still able to see well without glasses, does that tell us something about him as he ages?

At the very least, I would think the FBI would say "we're probably looking for someone who didn't need glasses at 45"

That would help narrow the suspect pool also?

For instance Hahneman did wear glasses? I wonder if he had them on during the hijack. Probably yes. That probably helped in id'ing him?

All the composites with the wraparound sunglasses probably steered people into thinking of Cooper as a glasses guy.

They should have just put the composite out with no glasses. Did they think he was wearing sunglasses all the time? If sunglasses were a disguise (who knows) why show the disguise?

Rply> Uh, you put posters out that show the subject
as he appeared at the crime, or as the public is
liable to encounter him?

Just a guess.

• Quote

[georger 267]

Quote

Snow,

All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version?

I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know....
Tom

Where are you getting that Cooper
had prescription glasses? What's your source?

Just a guess?

Georger

[snowmman 3]

Quote

record of the Coopr case is complete without mentioning Jo and Duane Weber.

I think it's fair to say, that in my mind, the Duane image comes up stronger than the image of the 1971 composite, when I think of Cooper.

That doesn't make sense.

I think it's because it's easier to think of a photo then a sketch, because it seems more real.

That's why I liked my 3d head, even if it was missing hair. The photo-realistic texture for the skin, makes it look like a photo (the age advanced one).
I think it registers in my mind better. There's no reason to say it's less accurate than the sketch, since we're just interested in dimensions/shapes/rough colorations.

[georger 267]

Quote

Quote

Snow,

All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version?

I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know....

and so Cooper jumps with prescription SUN GLASSES
AT NIGHT!

Brilliant.



Tom

Yes, people jump with goggles over their glasses.
I should add one of the oldtimers (can't remember who it was) posted here though that skydiving goggles were not widely available at the time - people used other types and I am not sure how useful those would have been as over-glasses goggles.

If you wear contact lenses, and I would imagine this was exacerbated with hard ones, the chances of losing one or both lenses without goggles is high. (People have managed to not lose them, but if you as Cooper wore contacts you surely wouldn't want to take the chance.)
Anyhow Cooper could easily have had a pair of goggles somewhere, in an inside suit pocket or in his mysterious paper bag.

[georger 267]

Quote

georger said:

Quote

His writing on the ticket does not appear abnormal in size or slant or structure, in fact very simple and without telltale visual issues.

I'm pretty sure we know Cooper didn't write on the ticket?
(that was the ticket agent)

There are no samples of Cooper's writing.
We also don't know if the note was handwritten or typed. There are some claims in some articles, but Ckret has never confirmed?

I misspoke - you're right. Im pretty ^%&$^%&$#'ed up right now due to stress. Have to getback in the
boatr before the Weber Effect takesme out for good -
Georger

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Rply> Uh, you put posters out that show the subject
as he appeared at the crime, or as the public is
liable to encounter him?

Just a guess.

You mean the next day? The next day he didn't have the tie. And why would he be wearing sunglasses in the NW in November 1971?

And 37 years later, why would showing a sketch with black sunglasses help? I would think highlighting the sunglasses as a separate item might help..i.e. saying they were the like the ones I showed.

Do you think showing the sunglass sketch nowadays would help someone ID Cooper?

I don't care what the motivation was in 1971.

(edit) I think most amateur movies that do "Cooper" things, use the wrong sunglasses. they use "Risky Business" or "Blues Brothers" or "Men in Black" type. Which is wrong, right?

[georger 267]

Quote

Quote

Rply> Uh, you put posters out that show the subject
as he appeared at the crime, or as the public is
liable to encounter him?

Just a guess.

You mean the next day? The next day he didn't have the tie. And why would he be wearing sunglasses in the NW in November 1971?

And 37 years later, why would showing a sketch with black sunglasses help? I would think highlighting the sunglasses as a separate item might help..i.e. saying they were the like the ones I showed.

Do you think showing the sunglass sketch nowadays would help someone ID Cooper?

I don't care what the motivation was in 1971.


Reply> Rather than my guessing, perhaps Ckret or
Tom can share with us how the FBI posters of Cooper were constructed, and by whom.

As to vision and prescription glasses for the jumper,
sunglasses or otherwise, I have no idea what Tom
is driving at. I guess he feels Cooper had to have
sufficient vision to see where he was dropping after
the jump and to guide himself accordingly? We know,
or I think we know, there was a 5000ft cloud cover
at VCR and PDX ..... Im going to stop guessing
because the context has not been specified.

Cooper

Georger.

• Quote

[Orange1 0]

Quote

I think French was used even in the late '60s, a lot?

Of course, and even today, such is the legacy of colonialism. If the French rather than the British had colonised South Africa I would speak French and not English.

Here's our list of possibilities:


Francophone Countries of the World

-
Countries where French is a national language:

Belgium
Benin
Burkina-Faso
Burundi
Cameroon
Canada
Central African Republic
Chad
Comoros
Democratic Republic of Congo
Djibouti
France
Gabon
Guinea
Haiti
Ivory Coast
Luxembourg
Madagascar
Mali
Monaco
Niger
Republic of Congo
Rwanda
Senegal
Seychelles
Switzerland
Togo
Vanuatu


-
Other member states of the Organisation Internationale de la Francophonie (OIF):
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Dominica
Egypt
Equitorial Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Laos
Lebanon
Morocco
Mauritania
Mauritius
Moldova
Romania
Saint-Lucia
Sao-Tomé et Principe
Tunisia
Vietnam

(Mauritius is only in the 2nd list because English is the official language, but more people speak French there than English...there may be other countries on that second list where French is predominant despite not being the official language)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Interesting site of a paratrooper's experience in WW2.

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:oXDh4xfD13IJ:www.508pir.org/pdf_files/bio_morgan_wooster.pdf+%22wooster+m+morgan%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=za

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

Snow,

All really good points. Especially why would they publicize the "disguised" version?

I have to think its problematic to jump with glasses. What do you do, cover them with goggles?? Or do you pull them out and put them on once your under chute? Whuffo wants to know....
Tom

It depends on the amount of correction needed of course, but than being said~

When I started jumping I couldn't legally drive a car without corrective lenses, but never once used glasses or contacts for skydiving.

It's actually a pretty big planet...relatively speaking.

I'm betting even a blind skydiving hijacker would be able to hit it 8 out of 10 times!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Orange1 0]

Quote

It's actually a pretty big planet...relatively speaking.

I'm betting even a blind skydiving hijacker would be able to hit it 8 out of 10 times!

Actually, I'd bet a blind skydiving hijacker would hit it 10 out of 10 times.
How well he'd hit it is another story of course...

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

All,

Since Jo can't come up with the info here is mine.

Notice the arrows in the attached classic pic. At the angle we are looking through the glasses, the side of Duane's face is refracted IN. This is characteristic of what general prescription he needs. Peregrine should be able to tell us a LOT about Duane's eyes just from this.

Take your glasses off if you have them, and hold them up to a straight edge at a similar angle and see which way the line refracts. Mine goes OUT and I can see better far than near (but not great in either).

Peregrine??

Tom

That pic would actually indicate a little bit of nearsightedness... Myopic lenses minify the image (make the face indent inward), hyperopic lenses magnify the image (make the face behind it look like it's bumping outward).

Although that isn't inconsistent with Jo's comments... typically kids get more nearsighted/less farsighted, then in the 20s things level out a bit, and often in the 40s, nearsightedness decreases/farsightedness increases (plus presbyopia kicking in).

Jo, if you have any of his old glasses laying around, it's really easy to go to any optical place and have them read the script for you.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

First, Peregrine is most definitely a 'she'
That one looks like a little nearsighed plus bifocals, but hard to tell.... again, not a very high script.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

All,

Since its not looking like Peregrine is coming back any time soon I am going to make my final statement on Duane.

For months I have been on the fence about Duane. Small details seemed to be pointing in the right direction while others were completely off base. To me this meant there could be grains of truth mixed in with assorted other junk or it was all a shotgun effect where something is bound to hit the mark.

The eyeglass details for me has closed the door on the Duane Weber saga. My information tells me he was near-sighted. Not a little, but a LOT near-sighted. This seems to be consistent from the younger to older pictures. This would still allow him to do things like shoot a gun because its actually more accurate to focus on the sights than the target (if you can still see the fuzzy target).

To my way of thinking, hijacking that airplane was probably the riskiest moment in Coopers life. It would take a lot to convince me that a guy is going to do that while making the choice to go in basically blind without glasses. He was able to identify Tacoma which I doubt Duane Weber could have done from an airplane without glasses.

So Jo while I respect your efforts to find evidence that Duane was Cooper, in my mind a near-sighted guy does not hijack a plane blind. I can now personally discount Duane entirely but of course, I could be wrong, and invite you all to come up with evidence to the contrary.

Tom

I'm here.... catching up on everything I missed in the last few days
Wasn't the jump made in the evening? The less light is present, the more trouble people that are a little myopic have... a phenominon called 'night myopia'.

He would not have been going in blind by any stretch, but not 100 percent either. My guess would be 20/50ish visual acuity (total guess based on appearance of glasses)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[TomKaye 1]

Quote

I agree he's either a little bit nearsighted, or at least a little bit of astigmatism (minus cyl in the 90 degree axis). Not a whole lot, but some.

Peregrinerose,

Thanks for coming back and giving us the right answer! I am glad to stand corrected. I think the general idea that he was in a high stress situation that required all of his faculties holds true. I doubt we are ever going to see the actual prescription so its likely to end here.

For me it still puts Duane out of the picture as Cooper. I think the real Dan Cooper didn't need glasses and everything in the testimony indicated he got along fine without them. He could have had goggles hidden somewhere along with the eyeglasses but that exceeds what we know about the situation.

Thanks!

Tom

ps sorry about the he/she mistake!