DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 774]

 

29 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

By this logic, if Hahneman and Cooper both referred to food as “meat and potatoes”, then that would mean that “meat and potatoes” was a term that they both picked up in the military….

You are really good at bad analogies..

[CooperNWO305 159]

“Yes there are two 1960’s chest pack containers on the shelf stuffed with rags for show. You can see in the other shots the same bungees meant to hold the chutes in place on the shelf until needed. Yes everyone used QAC chest pack harnesses and chutes.”

 

Navy guy who flew on the Twin Beech, as World War II plane that he helped restore. It’s one data point, but he uses the term chest. If you’re only using one chute, as a pilot may use one or a bombardier one, then would you say yours is a main and his a reserve, or would you say back and front or back and chest? 
 

From my perspective as one who does not wade into all of these conversations, is that Fly does not usually speak in absolutes, but someone like Nicky finds one data point, but has no context (like what that guys shadow box of awards means) and he uses that as an attack on Fly, when Fly already said his argument was not exclusive. All Fly has to do is find someone from that era who used the term front and he wins this argument. Whether that leads him to infer that Cooper was a certain type of person, well that’s up to him. 
 

You guys would like to say all his commentary for years is only because of Hahneman, like Ryan said something that I don’t really have much case knowledge and I’m just on Smith. I find both of those to be short sighted comments. 

[FLYJACK 774]

16 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I got the impression from this pic that you meant Flo wanted changes to include the nose. She wanted some changes, but did not say the nose. 

Flo picked out KK5-1 who had a large nose,, she suggested changes but didn't say anything about the nose..

Alice is the only one who said small nose in interviews... it must have been her input on the sketch.

[FLYJACK 774]

2 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

“Yes there are two 1960’s chest pack containers on the shelf stuffed with rags for show. You can see in the other shots the same bungees meant to hold the chutes in place on the shelf until needed. Yes everyone used QAC chest pack harnesses and chutes.”

 

Navy guy who flew on the Twin Beech, as World War II plane that he helped restore. It’s one data point, but he uses the term chest. If you’re only using one chute, as a pilot may use one or a bombardier one, then would you say yours is a main and his a reserve, or would you say back and front or back and chest? 
 

From my perspective as one who does not wade into all of these conversations, is that Fly does not usually speak in absolutes, but someone like Nicky finds one data point, but has no context (like what that guys shadow box of awards means) and he uses that as an attack on Fly, when Fly already said his argument was not exclusive. All Fly has to do is find someone from that era who used the term front and he wins this argument. Whether that leads him to infer that Cooper was a certain type of person, well that’s up to him. 
 

You guys would like to say all his commentary for years is only because of Hahneman, like Ryan said something that I don’t really have much case knowledge and I’m just on Smith. I find both of those to be short sighted comments. 

Hahneman and Cooper used that term..  

These guys can't find anyone else who used that term,, 

[FLYJACK 774]

38 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

H and Cooper could of said it for a number of reasons. You are making a leap in logic by thinking it MUST of been influenced by their background. The truth is we just don’t know. I already gave one example but here’s another. I think we can all agree it’s laymen’s terms. Front and back is the simplest, most obvious way to describe them. It provides a visual reference. Maybe their thought process was that since they were dealing with civilians. Their best course of action to avoid any confusion, would be to speak to them in the language they best could understand. Maybe Cooper and H had the same thought process in regards to their parachute request. At least that can’t be proven FALSE like the military nonsense. 

So, you now admit you don't know where it comes from, just random...

What are the chances of two military hijackers of a 727 using the same random phrase NOT used by military and NOT used by sport jumpers..

[CooperNWO305 159]

Looks like Dr. Bob has outlined his new book. Should be a good one. And I guess Eric still owes people money. The Vortex is not a real healthy place. 

[CooperNWO305 159]

Another data point, he uses the term front, not belly, not chest, not main. 
 

https://alabamamosaic.org/vufind/Record/FLCPLwar171/Description?print=1

 

If all Fly has to do is find examples of someone saying front that was military then I’d say he wins this argument. I find it very hard to believe that of the 10s of thousands of aircrew through the years (non pilot) none used the term front. Their preferred term may have been chest or belly, but to say they never used front is pretty absolute.

Ryan and Nicky have been talking about military jumpers and civilian jumpers, and did not take into account air crew who just wore the fronts.

Nicky needs to take some lessons from Ryan on how to put together an argument.

 

 

 

[CooperNWO305 159]

https://digitalcommons.csp.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=0&article=1045&context=oral-history_ww2&type=additional

 

In the meantime. I'm thinking, it's not opening, and I didn't have a front chute as a backup. I just had the one in the back. But then, thinking yea
 

 

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, you now admit you don't know where it comes from, just random...

What are the chances of two military hijackers of a 727 using the same random phrase NOT used by military and NOT used by sport jumpers..

 

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, you now admit you don't know where it comes from, just random...

What are the chances of two military hijackers of a 727 using the same random phrase NOT used by military and NOT used by sport jumpers..

It comes from the English language FACT. It wasn’t military terminology “jargon” FACT. You need the latter to be true for your leap in logic (picked up by both H and Cooper in the military) to be plausible. If something is jargon for something as commercial as the military, then examples should be plentiful. It shouldn’t be difficult for a research extraordinaire like yourself to produce some. Where’s it at Jack?  Ryan cited about 15 different memoirs where main and reserves were used. Here is a a 1943 U.S. Army training film, haven’t watched it in it’s entirety but already caught “Your reserve chute is life insurance” at the 4:47 mark. Based on the preponderance of the evidence SO FAR, mains and reserves were the militaries jargon for parachutes. 

 

 

[CooperNWO305 159]

2 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

 

It comes from the English language FACT. It wasn’t military terminology “jargon” FACT. You need the latter to be true for your leap in logic (picked up by both H and Cooper in the military) to be plausible. If something is jargon for something as commercial as the military, then examples should be plentiful. It shouldn’t be difficult for a research extraordinaire like yourself to produce some. Where’s it at Jack?  Ryan cited about 15 different memoirs where main and reserves were used. Here is a a 1943 U.S. Army training film, haven’t watched it in it’s entirety but already caught “Your reserve chute is life insurance” at the 4:47 mark. Based on the preponderance of the evidence SO FAR, mains and reserves were the militaries jargon for parachutes. 

 

 

Are you really that dumb? I just posted a few links. You’re not taking into account air crew. 
 

What about the guy who sent you pics of medals? Are those WW2 medals? Ask Ryan, he knows this stuff. If they aren’t then you are using that for your argument, and it’s not really relevant. 

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

The argument is against it being military jargon. It’s the most general description for them, so you’d expect to find an example or two, not enough to qualify it as jargon though. VERDICT: Doesn’t meet the criteria under the definition of the word. Burden of proof for military jargon also not met. Fronts and Backs are not considered military jargon for parachutes.  The judge rules in favor of Ryan and Nicky. Court is adjourned. 
 

 

[CooperNWO305 159]

11 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Fly, you keep saying this and have yet to provide any examples of it. 

As I said, the only military personnel from the 40's and 50's would would've ever had the occasion to discuss a set of parachutes were paratroopers, and we know for an absolute certainty that they used "reserve" and "main" in both training and in their everyday lingo to describe their jump gear. So who would ever be using this phrase "front and back" if not paratroopers? 

And again, I think nearly everyone is in agreement that his experience came in the military, but you keep asserting that "fronts and backs" is a huge clue and you've yet to provide any evidence for this claim aside from you repeating it. 

Where's the beef?

 

Air crew very well could have said fronts and backs if they were asking for a complete set. I don’t know why they would ask for a complete set, but someone who used a front would say front. And then if he wanted a back, he’d say back because that’s what he would have called it. Fronts and backs. 

[CooperNWO305 159]

9 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Of course the military uses RESERVE and MAIN. They DO NOT and have NEVER referred to chutes as FRONT and BACK. It’s merely a figment of Fly’s imagination.

Nicky. It sounds like Ryan’s coaching you, but a good coach can only help so much. Do you stand by this statement? That no one in the military referred to them as fronts and backs?

[CooperNWO305 159]

3 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Not a SINGLE person reading this, not even your sole ally on this board, is buying a bit of this. You made demonstrably untrue statements, got called out, and instead of admitting that you overreached (something we are all guilty of at times), you're twisting yourself into this pretzel.

It truly is pathological at this point. You simply cannot bring yourself to take an L on anything. 

None of this is that big of a deal. It's OK to admit overreach. It's OK to admit mistakes.

I bought a lot of bits of it. Ryan you need a new partner. Nicky will only drag you down. 

[FLYJACK 774]

10 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Of course the military uses RESERVE and MAIN. They DO NOT and have NEVER referred to chutes as FRONT and BACK. It’s merely a figment of Fly’s imagination. Like you said, it doesn’t matter how many times he repeats it, it doesn’t make it true. That’s what five year olds do. Just for good measure, I asked Lyle Cameron’s best friend John Fairbank. He was Army airborne with 750 jumps at the time of NORJAK. He started in the Army. Enlisted 53. OCS 55. Retired LTC in 1978. Then worked for the Army as a DA civilian until 2000. He’s 91 years old and has more patches and medals then you can count. Let’s consider this matter closed and move on. 

Of course you are wrong...  and your military source is as well because you asked the wrong question.

The point is..

front and back is not used in sport jumping per Mark..

front and back could be a wuffo but Cooper was not a wuffo,,, neither was Hahneman

front and back WAS used in military,, NOT exclusively..

Cooper most likely had military training,, Hahneman did.

 

Conclusion.. Cooper was military not a sport jumper..

He also did not ask for a bailout rig.. front and back meant reserve and main.

 

 

 

 

"Back and front T5 parachutes, retrieved on June 6 1944 in Sainte-Mère-Eglise. The back parachute’s bag is stamped N.A.F.I (National Automotive Fibres Inc.), and dated august 1943. It still has its folding booklet and his camouflage canvas with the same serial number. The black letters “RS” made with a stencil on the sling mean that this jumping equipment belonged to a patrooper of the 506th PIR, 101st Airborne. On June 13 1941, the T5 became the first automatic opening parachute with commanded opening autonomous “reserve”. The back parachute has a white or camouflage green canvas has 28 panels for a total surface of 52m2, whereas the front parachute has a smaller white canvas, with 24 panels for a surface of 45m2."

 

 

https://www.dearfolksies.com/may-21-1944-75-years-ago-in-a-ww2-m-a-s-h-unit/

 

 

 

 

 

https://thearrowheadclub.com/2016/05/

 

 

 

 

Eugene Spearman, radio operator with the 384th Bomb Group, shares the last of his great stories of life in the 384th Bomb Group during WWII. He starts with the formation of his crew at Avon Park, Florida, and ends with his return trip to the United States. In between, Eugene revisits some of his previous stories and shares some new ones.

Crew 56

The four giant engines roared as we raced down the runway. This runway ended at the very edge of the lake. It was September 1944 and crew 56 was taking off on their first flight since they had banded together as a crew in Avon Park, Florida. Lt. Edwin Nicolai was the pilot and Lt. Ross was the copilot. All knew that we had four or five months of operational training to complete before we would be sent into combat. During that four months we made practice bombing runs, checking the skills of our bombardier, Lt. Robitzki, as well as cross-country missions testing the skills of our navigator, F/O Gilbert Parker. Also, practice missions were made where the accuracy of the gunnery crew could be checked. Under the leadership of our pilot, we were inspired to do our jobs so that the missions would be successful.

In January of 1945, we arrived at Hunter Field, Georgia, where we were given a new B-17. We flew from there to Dow Field, Maine, after buzzing the home of Lt. Robitzki on Staten Island; then on to Goose Bay, Labrador. There the snow was so deep that we had only a few inches of light above the top of the outside windows. Canadian ski troops dressed in white operated around the air base.

.....

I, along with the pilot and copilot, always wore a back parachute. The rest of the crew wore a front chute that snapped on when you got ready to jump out of the plane. After the morning briefing, you always were asked to pick up your parachute as you went out to the plane. On my last mission, when I was asked which chute I wanted, I requested my back chute and asked for and was given a front chute also. I really wanted to be prepared on that last mission.

....

Two of the original crew 56 members had made the round trip.*

• Edwin Nicolai, Pilot
• Eugene Spearman, Radio Operator

* Other members of the original crew came back to the States later in 1945.

© Eugene Spearman, 2016

 

 

 

[FLYJACK 774]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

The argument is against it being military jargon. It’s the most general description for them, so you’d expect to find an example or two, not enough to qualify it as jargon though. VERDICT: Doesn’t meet the criteria under the definition of the word. Burden of proof for military jargon also not met. Fronts and Backs are not considered military jargon for parachutes.  The judge rules in favor of Ryan and Nicky. Court is adjourned. 
 

 

Ryan, I posted some examples... and there are several definitions of Jargon...

I originally posted it to show your error claiming Cooper asked for bailout rigs. He didn't ask for nor expect bailout rigs. YOU GOT THAT WRONG

Now, it was used by old school military, not exclusively.. maybe in specific branches or uses.. I researched this maybe 10 years ago... 

 

The context recently was differentiating between a sport jumper and military.

It was not used by sport jumpers per Mark... it was used by military.

I'll admit that it doesn't prove he took it from military experience... maybe it was completely random and he just made it up out of thin air... but so did Hahneman who had military experience.

Either they both got it from similar old school military experience

or

They both coincidentally used the same random terminology..  

 

Those are your only two options,, choose wisely.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Ryan, I posted some examples... and there are several definitions of Jargon...

I originally posted it to show your error claiming Cooper asked for bailout rigs. He didn't ask for nor expect bailout rigs. YOU GOT THAT WRONG

Now, it was used by old school military, not exclusively.. maybe in specific branches or uses.. I researched this maybe 10 years ago... 

 

The context recently was differentiating between a sport jumper and military.

It was not used by sport jumpers per Mark... it was used by military.

I'll admit that it doesn't prove he took it from military experience... maybe it was completely random and he just made it up out of thin air... but so did Hahneman who had military experience.

Either they both got it from similar old school military experience

or

They both coincidentally used the same random terminology..  

 

Those are your only two options,, choose wisely.

 

Fair enough and I’ll admit that I misspoke when I said nobody in the military ever used the term. I got a bit carried away. Hyperbole on my part. The crux of my argument is against it being common military terminology and or jargon, not that it’s never been used. But I think we’ve beaten that horse to death already and we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.  I also apologize for the canuck remark. Got caught up in the passion of the debate. Not my best form. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Nicholas Broughton

[dudeman17 353]

My experience is civilian, but there is a lot of crossover, a lot of military jumpers also sport jump and I have known many of them over the years. When I learned in '79, many of my instructors were from the military. Military courses can be exceedingly detailed, a lot of their First Jump Courses in that day lasted a week (before the first jump), and the students would definitely know 'mains' and 'reserves', and probably the make and model of the gear they were jumping, and maybe the serial numbers of their particular rig. Yeah, that last part was kind of an exaggerated joke, but the point is valid. I don't think experienced jumpers from either genre would commonly use 'front and back' over 'main and reserve' amongst each other. They might use 'front mount reserve' to differentiate from piggyback gear when those were coming out. And bailout rigs might be front, chest, seat, or back to differentiate between the types of those, none of which are mains. Bailout rigs do not have secondary reserves. Bailout rigs are reserves for the original intent of landing with the plane. I could go into more detail, but who gives a fuck, none of it sticks anyways.

I don't think a conclusion can be made what Cooper's experience was based on the terminology he used. I think it's possible he was using generic terms based on who he was talking to, rather than where he came from. He was describing what he wanted to people who wouldn't know much about them. Indeed, if Cooper was an experienced sport jumper, he may have used generic terms in order to hide that fact, so as not to narrow down the suspect pool.

Getting bailout rigs would not necessarily be a deal-killing death sentence. Those things are designed to save lives, and they do. Andrade's research into WW2 bailouts confirms this. And some of them are steerable.

-----------------

I don't make posts with the intent of backing up some people or slamming others. I just try to clarify parachuting logistics based on decades of experience, as current as yesterday.

Some time ago I wrote a post about camaraderie based on shared interest. The way some of you can bitch and snipe at each other, I'm starting to think that we owe Blevins an apology.

[Kamkisky 13]

Do I have it correct that mains don’t have a packing card because packing cards are for reserves?

Cooper asked for fronts and backs and checked the backs for packing cards. 

Isn’t the logical conclusion he either knew the backs he got were bailout rigs (reserves) and therefore would have packing cards or he thought the backs he got were mains and didn’t know mains don’t have packing cards but he just thought some chutes have cards from his limited experience? 

Edited 12 minutes ago by Kamkisky