DB Cooper

[olemisscub 552]

16 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I didn't mean the very very first sketch.. Clearly, Rose met with the stews for A..

I didn't say she didn't meet Rose in Minneapolis,,

I believe she met with him after the other two did together..

All three met Rose but only two were at the same time.

It isn't clear due to redactions but it appears one stew likely Tina met with Rose after the other two.

This is the source of your confusion. This document, from the morning of Nov 30th, reflects Flo and Alice being shown the 11-29-71 Comp A adjustment with the eyes. It comes from the Minneapolis FBI. The reason why Tina isn't part of this document is because she was back in Philly by then. 

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I never said that...  I said it wasn't exclusive.

You are the most dishonest person around...

Blah blah blah… exclusivity has nothing to do with your claim that Fronts and Backs was terminology used by military men to describe parachutes.  It wasn’t used by them point blank period. You are the only one claiming it was and can’t provide any proof for it. If anything it was used by skydivers. You want it to be so because Hahnemen used it, we get it. Now take the L like a man and move on. More receipts! 

Edited 6 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 774]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

 

 

You are a serial liar... Ryan

[FLYJACK 774]

39 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Blah blah blah… exclusivity has nothing to do with your claim that Fronts and Backs was terminology used by military men to describe parachutes.  It wasn’t used by them point blank period. You are the only one claiming it was and can’t provide any proof for it. If anything it was used by skydivers. You want it to be so because Hahnemen used it, we get it. Now take the L like a man and move on. More receipts! 

It wasn't used by skydivers...  that is the whole point..

Mark (377) said so..

FACT.. Hahneman was old school military, he used the term.

Cooper was old enough to be in WW2 and used the term,, sport jumpers don't use that term. If Cooper was not a sport jumper he was military..

Why is this so hard for you to understand.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 774]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

This is the source of your confusion. This document, from the morning of Nov 30th, reflects Flo and Alice being shown the 11-29-71 Comp A adjustment with the eyes. It comes from the Minneapolis FBI. The reason why Tina isn't part of this document is because she was back in Philly by then. 

No, that isn't the right one.

I do appreciate you falsely and dishonestly asserting my source of error.

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It wasn't used by skydivers...  that is the whole point..

Mark (377) said so..

No. The point is military men didn’t use it, which is what you claim. Stop deflecting from your ignorance. Mark probably just can’t recall running across any whuffos that used it. The only individuals that MIGHT of used it at some point were whuffo (beginner) skydivers, who weren’t hip to the lingo/terminology yet, because it certainly wasn’t used by military personnel FACT. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 774]

10 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

No. The point is military men didn’t use it, which is what you claim. Stop deflecting from your ignorance. Mark probably just can’t recall running across any whuffos that used it. The only individuals that MIGHT of used it at some point were whuffo skydivers, who weren’t hip to the lingo yet, because it certainly wasn’t used by military personnel FACT. 

Are you speaking for Mark now..

So, according to you military didn't use it and according to Mark sport jumpers didn't use it...

Not military and not sport jumpers.

 

Is it so rare that no sightly experienced jumper would use that term..

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

33 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Are you speaking for Mark now..

So, according to you military didn't use it (except Hahneman and Cooper) and according to Mark sport jumpers didn't use it...

So who used it..  aliens..

Not according to me, according to military personnel of the era, who dealt with parachutes, which I’ve provided receipts for. You have yet to bring any receipts or proof to back up your claim. I got some crossovers saying they never heard it in the military and the first time they heard it was in civilian circles. Mark correctly stating it wasn’t sport jumper terminology doesn’t = it being Military terminology.  Hahneman alone isn’t proof with strong contradictory evidence that it wasn’t used in Military circles. Now if you can establish that it was with something other then your word, then it might hold some water. We have no idea why Hahneman used that terminology but you have certainly failed to prove the military as a plausible option for where he picked it up. What’s more plausible with what has clearly been establish, is that he didn’t want to give any tells to his military background by asking for mains and reserves, so he spoke in general terms, because we do know that’s what military guys called them (receipts provided) but even that’s questionable as he was blabbing about his personal life during his skyjacking. Bottom line is there is no parallel you can draw to NORJAK with it. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 774]

4 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Not according to me, according to military personnel who dealt with parachutes, which I’ve provided receipts for. You have yet to bring any receipts or proof to back up your claim. I got some crossovers saying they never heard it in the military and the first time they heard it was in civilian circles. Mark correctly stating it wasn’t sport jumper terminology doesn’t = it being Military terminology.  Hahneman alone isn’t proof with strong contradictory evidence that it wasn’t used in Military circles. Now if you can establish that it was, then it might cary some water. We have no idea why Hahneman used that terminology but you have certainly failed to prove the military as a plausible option for where he picked it up. What’s more plausible with what has clearly been establish, is that he didn’t want to give any tells to his military background by asking for mains and reserves, so he spoke in general terms, because we do know that’s what military guys called them (receipts shown) but even that’s questionable as he was blabbing about his personal life during his skyjacking. Bottom line is there is no parallel you can draw to NORJAK with it. 

You haven't established anything.. a few anecdotes contradicted by Hahnaman and Cooper..

You are claiming military never uses it...  

I am not claiming it is exclusively used by military..

Since it is NOT used by sport jumpers..

and you claim NOT used by military..

 

then according to your logic, nobody uses it?

 

Is it so rare that no sightly experienced jumper would use that term.. is that your claim?

 

[olemisscub 552]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

No, that isn't the right one.

 

The ONLY 302's that we have regarding statements from the girls about the Initial Sketch or Comp A are as follows

11-25-71 - Tina being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-25-71 - Flo being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-25-71 - Alice being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-30-71 - Alice and Flo being shown a fax of Bing with Eyes

8-7-72 - Reference made to Tina stating on 11-27-71 that the sketch was "almost 100% like him."

That's it so far in the files. 

[olemisscub 552]

9 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Military,, he initially used the term "parachute" then clarified "front and back".. military refers to chutes as front and back not reserve and main.

You're still sticking with this?

[FLYJACK 774]

11 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

You're still sticking with this?

sure, I was responding to your incorrect claim about bailout rigs

front and back means reserves and mains,,, that was what Cooper meant.

NOT a bailout rig and a front reserve.

Are you claiming that military personnel never use front and back...

 

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

19 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You haven't established anything.. a few anecdotes contradicted by Hahnaman and Cooper..

You are claiming military never uses it...  

I am not claiming it is exclusively used by military..

Since it is NOT used by sport jumpers..

and you claim NOT used by military..

 

then according to your logic, nobody uses it?

 

Is it so rare that no sightly experienced jumper would use that term.. is that your claim?

 

No. You claiming that it was military terminology, “old school military jargon” as you put it, is what I’m holding you to. I have testimony (multiple) from military saying it wasn’t used. I can keep racking up the receipts and post more of them but that won’t change your mind, so it’s a waste of time. You’re most likely to hear fronts and backs used by whuffos aka civilians or beginners in the sport. I don’t think anyone here besides you will disagree with that statement.  

Edited 5 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 774]

5 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

No. You claiming that it was used AT ALL, “old school military jargon” of any sort is what I’m holding you to. I have testimony (multiple) from military saying it wasn’t used. I can keep racking up the receipts and post more of them but that won’t change your mind, so it’s a waste of time. You’re most likely to hear fronts and backs used by whuffos aka civilians or beginners in the sport. I don’t think anyone here besides you will disagree with that statement.  

I don't disagree that it could be used by wuffos.. 

Cooper wasn't a wuffo...

So, if it wasn't used by sport jumpers and according to you it wasn't used at all by military and Cooper wasn't a wuffo.. then it would be extremely rare for Cooper to use that term.. right? Virtually impossible..

Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 552]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

sure, I was responding to your incorrect claim about bailout rigs

front and back means reserves and mains,,, that was what Cooper meant.

NOT a bailout rig and a front reserve.

Are you claiming that military personnel never use front and back...

 

Not a SINGLE person reading this, not even your sole ally on this board, is buying a bit of this. You made demonstrably untrue statements, got called out, and instead of admitting that you overreached (something we are all guilty of at times), you're twisting yourself into this pretzel.

It truly is pathological at this point. You simply cannot bring yourself to take an L on anything. 

None of this is that big of a deal. It's OK to admit overreach. It's OK to admit mistakes.

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I don't disagree that it could be used by wuffos.. 

Cooper wasn't a wuffo...

So, if it wasn't used by sport jumpers and according to you it wasn't used at all by military and Cooper wasn't a wuffo.. then it would be extremely rare for Cooper to use that term.. right?

According to the military it wasn’t used by the military, not me. The logical deduction would be that his background most probably had no bearing on his language use in that instance. Plain and simple. I know you want it to because of Hahneman but you can’t get there. That’s why, as Ryan said days ago, it’s a fruitless endeavor.

Edited 4 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[FLYJACK 774]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Not a SINGLE person reading this, not even your sole ally on this board, is buying a bit of this. You made demonstrably untrue statements, got called out, and instead of admitting that you overreached (something we are all guilty of at times), you're twisting yourself into this pretzel.

It truly is pathological at this point. You simply cannot bring yourself to take an L on anything. 

None of this is that big of a deal. It's OK to admit overreach. It's OK to admit mistakes.

Not true,, I was responding to your false claims conflating bailout rigs with mains.

The context was Hayden's 1940 era bailout rigs..

I was claiming that Cooper meant front reserves and mains when he said fronts and backs..NOT front reserves and a bailout rig.

I never said it was exclusive as you keep claiming. I said it wasn't

Fronts and backs is not sport jumper terminology. Cooper used the term and was not a sport jumper.. he was almost certainly military.. likely WW2 based on age and Hahneman used the same term.. 

So, it is false that military did not use that term...

[FLYJACK 774]

23 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

According to the military it wasn’t used by the military, not me. The logical deduction would be that his background most probably had no bearing on his language use in that instance. Plain and simple. I know you want it to because of Hahneman but you can’t get there. That’s why, as Ryan said days ago, it’s a fruitless endeavor.

Ok, so your argument is that Cooper just randomly used that term,, 

He wasn't a sport jumper, he wasn't a wuffo, he was most likely military but he randomly used that term..

you, Ryan and everyone know that how?

and by coincidence Hahneman randomly used the same term.. that nobody ever uses..

is that your argument..

Edited 4 hours ago by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 552]

8 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

So, it is false that military did not use that term...

By this logic, if Hahneman and Cooper both referred to food as “meat and potatoes”, then that would mean that “meat and potatoes” was a term that they both picked up in the military….

[olemisscub 552]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

you, Ryan and everyone know that how?

Dude, YOU are the one imparting some sort of significance to that term and acting like you know something from it, not us. 

We are only saying he could have picked it up from anywhere, which is 100% true. 

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

45 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Ok, so your argument is that Cooper just randomly used that term,, 

He wasn't a sport jumper, he wasn't a wuffo, he was most likely military but he randomly used that term..

you, Ryan and everyone know that how?

and by coincidence Hahneman randomly used the same term.. that nobody ever uses..

H and Cooper could of said it for a number of reasons. You are making a leap in logic by thinking it MUST of been influenced by their background. The truth is we just don’t know. I already gave one example but here’s another. I think we can all agree it’s laymen’s terms. Front and back is the simplest, most obvious way to describe them. It provides a visual reference. Maybe their thought process was that since they were dealing with civilians. Their best course of action to avoid any confusion, would be to speak to them in the language they best could understand. Maybe Cooper and H had the same thought process in regards to their parachute request. At least that can’t be proven FALSE like the military nonsense. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[CooperNWO305 158]

16 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

H and Cooper could have said it for a number of reasons. You are making a leap in logic by thinking it MUST of been influenced by their background. The trust is we just don’t know. I already gave one example but here’s another. I think we can all agree it’s laymen’s terms. Front and back is the simplest, most obvious way to describe them. It provides a visual reference. Maybe their thought process was that since they were dealing with civilians. Their best course of action to avoid any confusion, would be to speak to them in the language they could understand. Maybe Cooper and H had the same thought process in regards to their parachute request. That I could by but the military thing is nonsense. 

Nicky. Calling Fly a Canuck is derogatory in this case. I’ll take him over you as an American any day. 
 

Hahneman very well could have gotten the term in the military. These threads look like you are saying that this is a choice between two things, military parachutists and skydivers. Hahneman was neither, he was aircrew. An air crewman very well may have communicated in the terms fronts and backs. “Hey, go get me a chute” “what kind, front or back?” Or “what kind, main or reserve”

I don’t think this is getting us very far, but you are using it to call out Flyjack. You message a few guys on Facebook who are military, and don’t know how much of a low life you are, because if they did, they would not talk to you. You’re a kiss ass who is using an appeal to authority fallacy. A guy who joined the Army in 1994 does not have first person experience of what a guy born in the 1920s said. I certainly don’t. I can assume, but I don’t know, just like I don’t know all the slang today. 
 

Ryan at least gave multiple examples of his stance. 
 

So let’s try this, if someone can find an example of someone in the military using the term front and back, or here is a key set of terms, front or back, then what happens? Probably nothing. You just want to suck up to Ryan because Fly embarrassed you. 

Edited 4 hours ago by CooperNWO305

[CooperNWO305 158]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

 

The ONLY 302's that we have regarding statements from the girls about the Initial Sketch or Comp A are as follows

11-25-71 - Tina being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-25-71 - Flo being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-25-71 - Alice being shown a fax in Minneapolis of Initial Sketch

11-30-71 - Alice and Flo being shown a fax of Bing with Eyes

8-7-72 - Reference made to Tina stating on 11-27-71 that the sketch was "almost 100% like him."

That's it so far in the files. 

I got the impression from this pic that you meant Flo wanted changes to include the nose. She wanted some changes, but did not say the nose. 

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

7 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Of course the military uses RESERVE and MAIN. They DO NOT and have NEVER referred to chutes as FRONT and BACK. It’s merely a figment of Fly’s imagination. Like you said, it doesn’t matter how many times he repeats it, it doesn’t make it true. That’s what five year olds do. Just for good measure, I asked Lyle Cameron’s best friend John Fairbank. He was Army airborne with 750 jumps at the time of NORJAK. He started in the Army. Enlisted 53. OCS 55. Retired LTC in 1978. Then worked for the Army as a DA civilian until 2000. He’s 91 years old and has more patches and medals then you can count. Let’s consider this matter closed and move on. 

BUMP

[CooperNWO305 158]

Just now, Nicholas Broughton said:

BUMP

So he was in the military around 1945?