DB Cooper

[olemisscub 575]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Summary..

Cooper expected a main/front reserve set. Received emergency bailout rigs.

Cooper either did not notice and jumped anyway, not demanding mains or he didn't notice they were bailout rigs.

 

Respectfully, I believe you're unnecessarily overthinking this bailout vs. main thing and his reaction/non-reaction to what they gave him. I don't think we need to even go that far into it to find the biggest clue that Cooper provides us regarding the chutes. The most obvious clue to his experience with parachutes can be found at the very beginning: his demand. By simply demanding "two fronts and two backs", this tells us most of what we need to know about him, which is that he was almost certainly NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. I've used the analogy before on my show, but if we substitute a getaway car for parachutes, Cooper essentially just said "give me a car" when he instead could have easily said "I want a Ford Mustang Shelby" or "I want a Camaro". Some just asking for a "getaway car" would indicate that this individual is not a gearhead in the same way that asking for generic parachutes indicates that Cooper was not a recreational skydiver.

Cooper's lack of specificity with his demand is so highly, highly informative. Every skydiver on this site and every skydiver that I've spoken to at CC's or on Facebook groups have been unanimous in stating that they would NEVER just ask for "parachutes" in such a generic way if they were pulling off a heist like this. First off, most skydivers we've heard from on this issue have agreed that they would bring their own chute if they could, and if they couldn't, they would be very specific with their demand. 

Our two recreational skydiving copycats illustrate this perfectly. Heady brought his own chute, and McCoy both brought his own chutes AND was also highly specific with the parachutes he demanded be brought to him (four Commander parachutes from Perry Stevens' Loft in Oakland)

You stated that H demanded "fronts and backs". Mac requested "six parachutes". LaPoint said "two parachutes". Fisher simply demanded "a parachute." None of those men were sport parachutists. Cooper making a similarly generic demand for parachutes throws him firmly in that camp. 

So I don't feel it's really necessary to try and figure out whether Cooper knew the difference in a main vs. a bailout because he's essentially already telegraphed to us what his level of intelligence was toward parachuting equipment from the very start: he lacked the knowledge to be specific, which strongly implies that he wouldn't have known the difference in a main and a bailout rig. If he had any real knowledge of parachuting gear he would have used specifics with his demand. 

 

[FLYJACK 782]

48 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Respectfully, I believe you're unnecessarily overthinking this bailout vs. main thing and his reaction/non-reaction to what they gave him. I don't think we need to even go that far into it to find the biggest clue that Cooper provides us regarding the chutes. The most obvious clue to his experience with parachutes can be found at the very beginning: his demand. By simply demanding "two fronts and two backs", this tells us most of what we need to know about him, which is that he was almost certainly NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. I've used the analogy before on my show, but if we substitute a getaway car for parachutes, Cooper essentially just said "give me a car" when he instead could have easily said "I want a Ford Mustang Shelby" or "I want a Camaro". Some just asking for a "getaway car" would indicate that this individual is not a gearhead in the same way that asking for generic parachutes indicates that Cooper was not a recreational skydiver.

Cooper's lack of specificity with his demand is so highly, highly informative. Every skydiver on this site and every skydiver that I've spoken to at CC's or on Facebook groups have been unanimous in stating that they would NEVER just ask for "parachutes" in such a generic way if they were pulling off a heist like this. First off, most skydivers we've heard from on this issue have agreed that they would bring their own chute if they could, and if they couldn't, they would be very specific with their demand. 

Our two recreational skydiving copycats illustrate this perfectly. Heady brought his own chute, and McCoy both brought his own chutes AND was also highly specific with the parachutes he demanded be brought to him (four Commander parachutes from Perry Stevens' Loft in Oakland)

You stated that H demanded "fronts and backs". Mac requested "six parachutes". LaPoint said "two parachutes". Fisher simply demanded "a parachute." None of those men were sport parachutists. Cooper making a similarly generic demand for parachutes throws him firmly in that camp. 

So I don't feel it's really necessary to try and figure out whether Cooper knew the difference in a main vs. a bailout because he's essentially already telegraphed to us what his level of intelligence was toward parachuting equipment from the very start: he lacked the knowledge to be specific, which strongly implies that he wouldn't have known the difference in a main and a bailout rig. If he had any real knowledge of parachuting gear he would have used specifics with his demand. 

 

Your premise is wrong,,

His demand was specific.. 

[olemisscub 575]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Your premise is wrong,,

His demand was specific.. 

This "specific demand" merely illustrates that he understood the concept of there being backpack parachutes and front reserve parachutes that are worn as a set. It’s a slight step up from the copycats who just asked for “parachutes”, but not nearly a big enough leap to deny my premise: If he had actual experience with skydiving equipment his demand wouldn’t have been so generic. 

Cooper was not a sport jumper. 

Edited July 26 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 782]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This "specific demand" merely illustrates that he understood the concept of there being backpack parachutes and front reserve parachutes that are worn as a set. It’s a slight step up from the copycats who just asked for “parachutes”, but not nearly a big enough leap to deny my premise: If he had actual experience with skydiving equipment his demand wouldn’t have been so generic. 

Cooper was not a sport jumper. 

I agree with you conclusion, he was not a sport jumper,,

but your premise is still wrong, he was being specific.

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains.. the fact that he didn't receive what he asked for was not his error.

[georger 271]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I agree with you conclusion, he was not a sport jumper,,

but your premise is still wrong, he was being specific.

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains.. the fact that he didn't receive what he asked for was not his error.

Fronts and backs is military jargon .............

Show us a military instruction manual.Document it. 

[olemisscub 575]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains

That seems like a big assumption given how generic that verbiage is. Any idiot who saw a photo of a skydiver in freefall in 1971 might also just call them "fronts" and "backs." If Cooper used terminology like "main" or "reserve" then maybe that could imply a heightened understanding of parachuting equipment, but "front" and "back" are such generic terms. I'm not even arguing with you about it being military jargon. Maybe it was. But those terms are too generic to ascribe exclusivity to them. It's like ascribing exclusivity to someone who uses the words "up" and "down". 

Edited July 27 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 782]

Can you guys read,,,

I just said it isn't exclusive to military.

We know Cooper had some parachute experience, the contrast is between a sport jumper and military..  

Sport parachutists used "reserves and mains", military used "fronts and backs".. that is the difference..

Hahneman was military he used "fronts and backs"...

I guess aliens used some other term....

[olemisscub 575]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Can you guys read,,,

I just said it isn't exclusive to military.

We know Cooper had some parachute experience, the contrast is between a sport jumper and military..  

Sport parachutists used "reserves and mains", military used "fronts and backs".. that is the difference..

Hahneman was military he used "fronts and backs"...

I guess aliens used some other term....

I’m honestly confused as to what this discussion is even about at this point. I think most of us here already agree that Cooper’s parachute knowledge came from the military. 

I’d still like to see evidence where “fronts and backs” is military jargon. Paratroopers in World War II 100% referred to their chutes as  “main” and “reserve” and they were the only individuals in the military during that era who would have ever had the occasion to wear two chutes. An air crewman like Hahneman never would have worn two chutes. So where would this lingo be coming from? 

 

Edited July 27 by olemisscub

[Nicholas Broughton 87]

8 hours ago, georger said:

Fronts and backs is military jargon .............

Show us a military instruction manual.Document it. 

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

Edited July 27 by Nicholas Broughton

[Robert99 64]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Edited July 27 by Robert99

[georger 271]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Funny. Whatever you and Dudeman say is fine with me!

[FLYJACK 782]

6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Those are bailout rigs... 

Sport jumpers use "reserve and mains" not military.

Cooper initially asked for two "parachutes",, that meant a set including a front and back. He clarified and said "front and back",, not "reserve and main".

Referring to chutes as front and backs is military, not sport jumping..

Since Cooper had some jump experience there are only three ways..

Smokejumper,, he didn't have that much experience.

Sport jumper,, he used the wrong term.

Military,, he initially used the term "parachute" then clarified "front and back".. military refers to chutes as front and back not reserve and main.

 

Not difficult.

[FLYJACK 782]

On 8/18/2011 at 8:45 PM, Robert99 said:

 

While sports parachuting was still relatively new in 1971, there was no problem with the lingo. Cooper wanted front parachutes that could be attached to the back parachute harness.

According to Tosaw's book, when Cooper saw that the front chutes could not be used with the back chutes, he told Tina that "they" should have known what he meant. And that was two functional sets of chutes each consisting of a front and back chute.

 

Sometimes, I think you guys are not being honest..

[FLYJACK 782]

8 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

It's the backup JV team..

Still flogging Vordahl.. or Klansnic.. or Skip... or a new one... maybe all were Cooper.

Referring to chutes as front and back is not sport parachuting even Mark (377) said so.

 

This is the 90% question...

if Cooper had some parachute experience and he wasn't a sport jumper (wrong term), and he wasn't a smokejumper (not high level experience) then where did he get his experience..   

Vordahl didn't have military experience.. sounds like confirmation bias.

 

[olemisscub 575]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

military refers to chutes as front and back not reserve and main.

 

Fly, you keep saying this and have yet to provide any examples of it. 

As I said, the only military personnel from the 40's and 50's would would've ever had the occasion to discuss a set of parachutes were paratroopers, and we know for an absolute certainty that they used "reserve" and "main" in both training and in their everyday lingo to describe their jump gear. So who would ever be using this phrase "front and back" if not paratroopers? 

And again, I think nearly everyone is in agreement that his experience came in the military, but you keep asserting that "fronts and backs" is a huge clue and you've yet to provide any evidence for this claim aside from you repeating it. 

Where's the beef?

 

[CooperNWO305 161]

On 7/25/2025 at 7:27 PM, dudeman17 said:

Geez, ya miss a few days...

 

 

The semantics may be of my doing. Flyjack has this right, though. Though they are not normally called 'reserves', I have called bailout rigs reserves here in describing the difference between them and mains. Mains are considered 'sporting equipment' and are not regulated by the FAA. Reserves and bailout rigs are considered 'emergency use' and are regulated. Mains are designed for constant use and better flight performance, differences that might increase the malfunction rate. Emergency use chutes are designed for opening reliability, they are tested to standards, and they are required to be packed by a licensed rigger, thus having packing cards and seals. Mains do not have packing cards or seals. Mains have the D-rings to attach the reserve. Bailout rigs do not have D-rings because they are the 'reserve',  the 'main' being the aircraft.

In any jumping or 'potential' jumping situation, the idea is that you want to have an emergency chute that you do not intend to use. For intentional jumps, whether sport or military, you have a main that gives you better control and landings, and a reserve in case it malfunctions. In an 'aircrew' situation, where you don't intend to jump, you have the bailout rig. For civilian use, that might be aerobatics or experimental aircraft. For military, you might have to bail if your aircraft gets shot.

Does that help?

 

 

I thought I answered this the other day. It depends. If Cooper was familiar with gear, he would have. If he wasn't, he might not have.

This one backfired on Nicky. He was brown nosing as he usually does by tagging people to kiss up to them. Or calling them pet names like bloodhound or Mr. 302. Now he’s kissing up to Georger. I guess it’s a peaceful way to go through life, but embarrassing to always be looking for approval. 
 

Seems like Fly’s accurate statements were just glossed over. 
 

Back to the chutes. I’ve heard “chest pack” too for the fronts in the past too. 
 

For the sake of everyone, would it make sense to change the subject? Flight path. Sketches. 
 

I am curious. Nicky used the B sketch to push Klansnic and then Vordhal. What sketch will we be seeing at CooperCon to push the new suspect?

KK5-1, Flo liked it. What were her words in the 302s (exactly as written by the agents) about what she didn’t like or wanted changed?

 

[olemisscub 575]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Sport jumpers use "reserve and mains" not military.

Demonstrably false. WWII and Korean War memoirs...

[Nicholas Broughton 87]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Fly, you keep saying this and have yet to provide any examples of it. 

As I said, the only military personnel from the 40's and 50's would would've ever had the occasion to discuss a set of parachutes were paratroopers, and we know for an absolute certainty that they used "reserve" and "main" in both training and in their everyday lingo to describe their jump gear. So who would ever be using this phrase "front and back" if not paratroopers? 

And again, I think nearly everyone is in agreement that his experience came in the military, but you keep asserting that "fronts and backs" is a huge clue and you've yet to provide any evidence for this claim aside from you repeating it. 

Where's the beef?

 

Of course the military uses RESERVE and MAIN. They DO NOT and have NEVER referred to chutes as FRONT and BACK. It’s merely a figment of Fly’s imagination. Like you said, it doesn’t matter how many times he repeats it, it doesn’t make it true. That’s what five year olds do. Just for good measure, I asked Lyle Cameron’s best friend John Fairbank. He was Army airborne with 750 jumps at the time of NORJAK. He started in the Army. Enlisted 53. OCS 55. Retired LTC in 1978. Then worked for the Army as a DA civilian until 2000. He’s 91 years old and has more patches and medals then you can count. Let’s consider this matter closed and move on. 

Edited July 27 by Nicholas Broughton

[olemisscub 575]

13 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

 

KK5-1, Flo liked it. What were her words in the 302s (exactly as written by the agents) about what she didn’t like or wanted changed?

 

 

[olemisscub 575]

46 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

What sketch will we be seeing at CooperCon to push the new suspect?

 

 

No one will be pushing a new suspect at CC. However, the daughter of a man who died in the late 70's will be coming to share some information about her father with everyone. I  believe the Vortex absolutely should be made aware of this individual. With permission I shared this info in full with Meltzer and Andrade for second and third opinions and they too agree with me that he is as good of a suspect as you could come up with given our current understanding of the case. As for what sketch he looks like: He looks like none of the sketches but also looks like all of them somehow. 

I won't be "pushing" this individual, but the Vortex certainly needs to be made aware of this man, and I'm pleased to give his daughter a platform to share his story. 

As I've said before, I now believe the odds that anyone in the Vortex has actually ever heard Cooper's real name is slim to zero. So despite this individual almost certainly not being Cooper, just by the sheer odds of it all, I do expect he'll become the "leader in the clubhouse", as it were. 

Edited July 27 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 782]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Demonstrably false. WWII and Korean War memoirs...

It isn't false,, that doesn't mean anything. I specifically said it WASN'T exclusive. 

You guys are so dishonest...

Sport jumpers do not use "fronts and backs" even Mark (377) said that.

If sport jumpers didn't use that term who does?? ALIENS

 

If Cooper had jump experience and evidence indicates he did then he was military... not a sport jumper. So, Hahneman military used that term and Cooper most certainly military used that term... aka it is used by military not sport jumpers.

I realize you guys don't like inconvenient facts.

 

[FLYJACK 782]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

 

KK5-1 had a large nose,, 

The small nose for sketch A came from Alice..

[olemisscub 575]

6 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It isn't false,, that doesn't mean anything. I specifically said it WASN'T exclusive. 

You guys are so dishonest...

Sport jumpers do not use "fronts and backs" even Mark (377) said that.

If sport jumpers didn't use that term who does?? ALIENS

 

If Cooper had jump experience and evidence indicates he did then he was military... not a sport jumper. So, Hahneman military used that term and Cooper most certainly military used that term... aka it is used by military not sport jumpers.

I realize you guys don't like inconvenient facts.

 

Good heavens. You really will die on every single hill of your creation. It's remarkable. 

"fronts and backs" is a generic term that ANYONE could use, a military man might could use it or some idiot off the street who was describing a skydiver he saw in a magazine might use it. Yes, a sport jumper would use more precise language. WE ALL KNOW THIS. But implying that "fronts and backs" is a clue that he was military is unfounded because you've yet to show that this WAS a term that they used. 

There is nothing "inconvenient" here. We are all in AGREEMENT that he wasn't a sport jumper. 

[olemisscub 575]

15 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

The small nose for sketch A came from Alice..

whilst Tina and Flo just went along with it stupidly as it was drawn from scratch in front of them? Please. To pretend like they didn't sign off on that weird little nose is asinine. If they wanted it to be drawn a different way, Rose would have done so. He wasn't creating a piece of abstract art. 

Edited July 27 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 782]

1 minute ago, olemisscub said:

Good heavens. You really will die on every single hill of your creation. It's remarkable. 

"fronts and backs" is a generic term that ANYONE could use, a military man might could use it or some idiot off the street who was describing a skydiver he saw in a magazine might use it. Yes, a sport jumper would use more precise language. WE ALL KNOW THIS. But implying that "fronts and backs" is a clue that he was military is unfounded because you've yet to show that this WAS a term that they used. 

There is nothing "inconvenient" here. We are all in AGREEMENT that he wasn't a sport jumper. 

Sure, I said it wasn't exclusive... that isn't the point. You keep claiming something opposite to what I already said.

 

You are missing the logic..

Cooper has some parachute experience. CHECK

Cooper was either a sport jumper or military. CHECK (smokejumper is more advanced)

Cooper used "front and back" CHECK

Sport jumpers use "main and reserve" CHECK

Hahneman, WW2 military used "front and back" CHECK

 

Conclusion = Cooper was not a sport jumper.. Cooper must have been military.