DB Cooper

[olemisscub 552]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Summary..

Cooper expected a main/front reserve set. Received emergency bailout rigs.

Cooper either did not notice and jumped anyway, not demanding mains or he didn't notice they were bailout rigs.

 

Respectfully, I believe you're unnecessarily overthinking this bailout vs. main thing and his reaction/non-reaction to what they gave him. I don't think we need to even go that far into it to find the biggest clue that Cooper provides us regarding the chutes. The most obvious clue to his experience with parachutes can be found at the very beginning: his demand. By simply demanding "two fronts and two backs", this tells us most of what we need to know about him, which is that he was almost certainly NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. I've used the analogy before on my show, but if we substitute a getaway car for parachutes, Cooper essentially just said "give me a car" when he instead could have easily said "I want a Ford Mustang Shelby" or "I want a Camaro". Some just asking for a "getaway car" would indicate that this individual is not a gearhead in the same way that asking for generic parachutes indicates that Cooper was not a recreational skydiver.

Cooper's lack of specificity with his demand is so highly, highly informative. Every skydiver on this site and every skydiver that I've spoken to at CC's or on Facebook groups have been unanimous in stating that they would NEVER just ask for "parachutes" in such a generic way if they were pulling off a heist like this. First off, most skydivers we've heard from on this issue have agreed that they would bring their own chute if they could, and if they couldn't, they would be very specific with their demand. 

Our two recreational skydiving copycats illustrate this perfectly. Heady brought his own chute, and McCoy both brought his own chutes AND was also highly specific with the parachutes he demanded be brought to him (four Commander parachutes from Perry Stevens' Loft in Oakland)

You stated that H demanded "fronts and backs". Mac requested "six parachutes". LaPoint said "two parachutes". Fisher simply demanded "a parachute." None of those men were sport parachutists. Cooper making a similarly generic demand for parachutes throws him firmly in that camp. 

So I don't feel it's really necessary to try and figure out whether Cooper knew the difference in a main vs. a bailout because he's essentially already telegraphed to us what his level of intelligence was toward parachuting equipment from the very start: he lacked the knowledge to be specific, which strongly implies that he wouldn't have known the difference in a main and a bailout rig. If he had any real knowledge of parachuting gear he would have used specifics with his demand. 

 

[FLYJACK 774]

48 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Respectfully, I believe you're unnecessarily overthinking this bailout vs. main thing and his reaction/non-reaction to what they gave him. I don't think we need to even go that far into it to find the biggest clue that Cooper provides us regarding the chutes. The most obvious clue to his experience with parachutes can be found at the very beginning: his demand. By simply demanding "two fronts and two backs", this tells us most of what we need to know about him, which is that he was almost certainly NOT a recreational skydiver of any sort. I've used the analogy before on my show, but if we substitute a getaway car for parachutes, Cooper essentially just said "give me a car" when he instead could have easily said "I want a Ford Mustang Shelby" or "I want a Camaro". Some just asking for a "getaway car" would indicate that this individual is not a gearhead in the same way that asking for generic parachutes indicates that Cooper was not a recreational skydiver.

Cooper's lack of specificity with his demand is so highly, highly informative. Every skydiver on this site and every skydiver that I've spoken to at CC's or on Facebook groups have been unanimous in stating that they would NEVER just ask for "parachutes" in such a generic way if they were pulling off a heist like this. First off, most skydivers we've heard from on this issue have agreed that they would bring their own chute if they could, and if they couldn't, they would be very specific with their demand. 

Our two recreational skydiving copycats illustrate this perfectly. Heady brought his own chute, and McCoy both brought his own chutes AND was also highly specific with the parachutes he demanded be brought to him (four Commander parachutes from Perry Stevens' Loft in Oakland)

You stated that H demanded "fronts and backs". Mac requested "six parachutes". LaPoint said "two parachutes". Fisher simply demanded "a parachute." None of those men were sport parachutists. Cooper making a similarly generic demand for parachutes throws him firmly in that camp. 

So I don't feel it's really necessary to try and figure out whether Cooper knew the difference in a main vs. a bailout because he's essentially already telegraphed to us what his level of intelligence was toward parachuting equipment from the very start: he lacked the knowledge to be specific, which strongly implies that he wouldn't have known the difference in a main and a bailout rig. If he had any real knowledge of parachuting gear he would have used specifics with his demand. 

 

Your premise is wrong,,

His demand was specific.. 

[olemisscub 552]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Your premise is wrong,,

His demand was specific.. 

This "specific demand" merely illustrates that he understood the concept of there being backpack parachutes and front reserve parachutes that are worn as a set. It’s a slight step up from the copycats who just asked for “parachutes”, but not nearly a big enough leap to deny my premise: If he had actual experience with skydiving equipment his demand wouldn’t have been so generic. 

Cooper was not a sport jumper. 

Edited 19 hours ago by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 774]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

This "specific demand" merely illustrates that he understood the concept of there being backpack parachutes and front reserve parachutes that are worn as a set. It’s a slight step up from the copycats who just asked for “parachutes”, but not nearly a big enough leap to deny my premise: If he had actual experience with skydiving equipment his demand wouldn’t have been so generic. 

Cooper was not a sport jumper. 

I agree with you conclusion, he was not a sport jumper,,

but your premise is still wrong, he was being specific.

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains.. the fact that he didn't receive what he asked for was not his error.

[georger 268]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I agree with you conclusion, he was not a sport jumper,,

but your premise is still wrong, he was being specific.

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains.. the fact that he didn't receive what he asked for was not his error.

Fronts and backs is military jargon .............

Show us a military instruction manual.Document it. 

[olemisscub 552]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Fronts and backs is military jargon for front reserves and mains

That seems like a big assumption given how generic that verbiage is. Any idiot who saw a photo of a skydiver in freefall in 1971 might also just call them "fronts" and "backs." If Cooper used terminology like "main" or "reserve" then maybe that could imply a heightened understanding of parachuting equipment, but "front" and "back" are such generic terms. I'm not even arguing with you about it being military jargon. Maybe it was. But those terms are too generic to ascribe exclusivity to them. It's like ascribing exclusivity to someone who uses the words "up" and "down". 

Edited 13 hours ago by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 774]

Can you guys read,,,

I just said it isn't exclusive to military.

We know Cooper had some parachute experience, the contrast is between a sport jumper and military..  

Sport parachutists used "reserves and mains", military used "fronts and backs".. that is the difference..

Hahneman was military he used "fronts and backs"...

I guess aliens used some other term....

[olemisscub 552]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Can you guys read,,,

I just said it isn't exclusive to military.

We know Cooper had some parachute experience, the contrast is between a sport jumper and military..  

Sport parachutists used "reserves and mains", military used "fronts and backs".. that is the difference..

Hahneman was military he used "fronts and backs"...

I guess aliens used some other term....

I’m honestly confused as to what this discussion is even about at this point. I think most of us here already agree that Cooper’s parachute knowledge came from the military. 

I’d still like to see evidence where “fronts and backs” is military jargon. Paratroopers in World War II 100% referred to their chutes as  “main” and “reserve” and they were the only individuals in the military during that era who would have ever had the occasion to wear two chutes. An air crewman like Hahneman never would have worn two chutes. So where would this lingo be coming from? 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by olemisscub

[Nicholas Broughton 79]

8 hours ago, georger said:

Fronts and backs is military jargon .............

Show us a military instruction manual.Document it. 

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

Edited 8 hours ago by Nicholas Broughton

[Robert99 61]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Edited 7 hours ago by Robert99

[georger 268]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Funny. Whatever you and Dudeman say is fine with me!

[FLYJACK 774]

6 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Nicholas, Georger, and Ollemiss are absolutely correct.  "Fronts and Backs" is NOT military jargon.  I have never heard that term uttered by a paratrooper or military free fall parachutist.

And backpack, seatpack, and quick attach rigs, where only the harness is worn, were always described by a single word - parachutes. 

This thread, like a number of others on this site, is a waste of time.

Those are bailout rigs... 

Sport jumpers use "reserve and mains" not military.

Cooper initially asked for two "parachutes",, that meant a set including a front and back. He clarified and said "front and back",, not "reserve and main".

Referring to chutes as front and backs is military, not sport jumping..

Since Cooper had some jump experience there are only three ways..

Smokejumper,, he didn't have that much experience.

Sport jumper,, he used the wrong term.

Military,, he initially used the term "parachute" then clarified "front and back".. military refers to chutes as front and back not reserve and main.

 

Not difficult.

[FLYJACK 774]

On 8/18/2011 at 8:45 PM, Robert99 said:

 

While sports parachuting was still relatively new in 1971, there was no problem with the lingo. Cooper wanted front parachutes that could be attached to the back parachute harness.

According to Tosaw's book, when Cooper saw that the front chutes could not be used with the back chutes, he told Tina that "they" should have known what he meant. And that was two functional sets of chutes each consisting of a front and back chute.

 

Sometimes, I think you guys are not being honest..

[FLYJACK 774]

8 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

He can’t. It’s nonsense. Just like Minnesota Nice LOL. Military jargon my ass! It’s obvious he’s made some confirmation bias lead connection to Hahneman when he starts going pointlessly too deep on some of these things.

It's the backup JV team..

Still flogging Vordahl.. or Klansnic.. or Skip... or a new one... maybe all were Cooper.

Referring to chutes as front and back is not sport parachuting even Mark (377) said so.

 

This is the 90% question...

if Cooper had some parachute experience and he wasn't a sport jumper (wrong term), and he wasn't a smokejumper (not high level experience) then where did he get his experience..   

Vordahl didn't have military experience.. sounds like confirmation bias.