DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 772]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

That’s funny, I think the only one afraid is Flyjack. He’s too scared to step outside the safe confines of the dropzone forum. Runs from media opportunities like it’s the plague, won’t do podcasts, youtube, cooper cons, ect. He’s hid behind this “project” for over a decade. Put me on record, if it ever comes out, I’ll retire from the case/vortex.  

What safe confines, I get misquoted and trashed here all the time.. You guys blocked me from FB even though I never posted anything,, clearly you have no interest in my participation. I have been asked to join FB and told nobody wants me there simultaneously.. seriously, I am not interested in FB. It is riddled with bad ideas.

In fact. I am considering leaving here, I get nothing from participating and get attacked with absolute nonsense.

As for my project, it is legit and I don't owe you or anyone anything..

How can you claim I am hiding behind something if you don't know what it is.. sounds a tad irrational.

I have been asked many times to do media, some much bigger than any of you guys could dream of and passed not out of fear but because I am not interested in giving away my research publicly.. I really have no interest in sharing my stuff.. 

As usual Nicky you have a knack for misreading the room...

You can retire now, nobody will notice.

Georger doesn't do media because he has nothing to say,, I don't do media because I have too much to say..

Edited Tuesday at 07:54 PM by FLYJACK

[c99acer 8]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Reca is not a suspect,, he is a grift.

He is one of fifteen names listed as a suspect on the "D.B. Cooper - Wikipedia" page. Someone must have thought he was?

[FLYJACK 772]

4 minutes ago, c99acer said:

He is one of fifteen names listed as a suspect on the "D.B. Cooper - Wikipedia" page. Someone must have thought he was?

No, Wikipedia is an unreliable scam run by crazy people... He is not a suspect no matter what Wiki says..  

Never cite the wiki..

Ask Ryan about Reca, he will explain it. I don't have the patience.

Edited Tuesday at 07:23 PM by FLYJACK

[c99acer 8]

51 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, Wikipedia is an unreliable scam run by crazy people... He is not a suspect no matter what Wiki says..  

Never cite the wiki..

Ask Ryan about Reca, he will explain it. I don't have the patience.

I believe Ryan was one doing edits to the Wiki page many moons ago? I will watch for other sources. thanks,

[Nicholas Broughton 78]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What safe confines, I get misquoted and trashed here all the time.. You guys blocked me from FB even though I never posted anything,, clearly you have no interest in my participation. I have been asked to join FB and told nobody wants me there simultaneously.. seriously, I am not interested in FB. It is riddled with bad ideas.

In fact. I am considering leaving here, I get nothing from participating and get attacked with absolute nonsense.

As for my project, it is legit and I don't owe you or anyone anything..

How can you claim I am hiding behind something if you don't know what it is.. sounds a tad irrational.

I have been asked many times to do media, some much bigger than any of you guys could dream of and passed not out of fear but because I am not interested in giving away my research publicly.. I really have no interest in sharing my stuff.. 

As usual Nicky you have a knack for misreading the room...

You can retire now, nobody will notice.

Georger doesn't do media because he has nothing to say,, I don't do media because I have too much to say..

This forum doesn’t have an audience and you don't have to speak or show your face here. That takes some guts and it’s what I mean by safe confines. Internet forums are a thing of the past, incase you haven’t noticed. Oh and news flash, you can do media without sharing your top secret research information. You have no shortage of research and opinions on the case, which you have shared on this public forum and shutter's site over the years, that the modern day cooperite will never be exposed to because they are dead and buried on those outlets.  The majority of the people interested in the case today weren’t around in the “forums” era to soak up your superior NORJAK case knowledge. It's a cop out and nobody is buying it. Given how irked you are regarding the misquoting and trashing of your research and analysis, one would think you’d be jumping at the chance to set the record straight. But instead you duck like a coward and use some lame excuse. If had to hazard a guess as to the real reason, I'd say it’s rooted in an insecurity. Maybe you have a hard time properly pronouncing the names of people, places, and things associated with the case or something.

Edited Tuesday at 09:40 PM by Nicholas Broughton

[Kamkisky 13]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You are making a bad conclusion based on poor assumptions..

The plane could have flown East of St Helens and be below 10000 ft. If we measure the distance from St Helens to the coast it is about 90 miles.. and of course the plane could swing around it if the crew chose to. So, you are just wrong on that point.

Cooper knew they were heading South to Reno,, that is is it,, South is not a path.

You are using the fact that plane went close to PDX so Cooper knew it was going to happen,, he didn't have any control over that. The variables are NOT as tight as you believe. About 90 miles at St Helens and over 100 at the Oregon border.

Most hijacker's gave directions to their jump zone.. Cooper not only didn't but there is no reason he wouldn't in your scenario.

Things are not so simple.. if they were this thing would have been solved long ago.

Cooper was delayed having trouble getting the stairs down, there is no evidence that he wanted to jump when he saw the lights.. that is made up. I believe he wanted to jump even earlier than he did.. 

We don't know exactly what Cooper could see on the ground with the clouds..  or if he knew the terrain well enough to identify markers.. 

I agree he knew the plane was generally heading South to Reno,, but that is about it. South is not a specific target.

If he was targeting a jump spot he would have made sure the plane was going to be there. His jump spot was not planned, it was ad hoc.

You keep using Mac as some sort of argument.. he isn't.

He demanded the plane fly toward Toronto and jumped, he did not have a specific target.. neither did Cooper, at least after Reno was in play..

For Cooper, Reno was not his initial demand, it was a renegotiation.

It is not that I just disagree per se.. that suggests a difference of opinion. In reality, your theory is not supported by any evidence or an argument, it is just made up of assumptions, some wrong.. People can make up all sorts of things for this case and they often do.. Quality theories fit into the evidence, the better the fit the better the theory. Better theories get vetted to potentially advance the case. That is how things progress.

 

From Tina... Can refuel anywhere in Mexico..

I agree he knew the plane was generally heading South to Reno,, but that is about it. South is not a specific target.

If he was targeting a jump spot he would have made sure the plane was going to be there

Cooper knew they were heading South to Reno,, that is is it,, South is not a path.

This is a lot of the disagreement. His target is south! South is the path. He made sure the plane was going there, and the plane did in fact go there. And *he knew it was going south.* And he did in fact jump into ideal farmland. This is the genius of A to B. Cooper knows where he is at the whole time. He limited the variables.

Mac was winging it, he only knew to jump the lights. Cooper knew what lights he was jumping. That’s the gap from a criminal of Mac’s level to one of Cooper’s. 
 

You are using the fact that plane went close to PDX so Cooper knew it was going to happen,, he didn't have any control over that. The variables are NOT as tight as you believe. About 90 miles at St Helens and over 100 at the Oregon border.

Most hijacker's gave directions to their jump zone.. Cooper not only didn't but there is no reason he wouldn't in your scenario.

I have St. Helens closer to 75 miles from the coast but 90 works too. Then, you have to factor in the safety space, I’m not a commercial pilot but I imagine this is a few miles at least. That’s the far eastern edge. Amboy is like ten miles west of St Helens.  

Most highjackers gave directions, so did Cooper. He just didn’t use coordinates or victors because he didn’t need too, it’s more advantageous not to. Cooper wants to have the search zone as big as possible, so he certainly isn’t giving coordinates. And he does not say fly 23 because he doesn’t care…Seattle to southern Washington only requires the plane to go south. He isn’t aiming for 1.35 miles east of X and 2.65 miles north of Y. He is aiming for the farmlands *region* of southern Washington. And he was successful in that endeavor. 

All this business about the plane could have gone to the ocean or gone mountain top dodging to the east, etc. that’s not what happened. *Anything could have happened.*

And you say Cooper had no control over the direction the pilots took, he did. I disagree. He had a bomb and told them to fly south. They did what they were told and lived. He had total control, try some funny stuff and find out. They choice wisely. 

This he jump ad hoc business makes no sense. He had the stairs open at around 7:45  As you admit, he knows he is going south. He waits a half an hour and jumps the first lights at BG. In your version that’s just coincidence. In my version, that’s what makes sense. In your version Cooper is an idiot who just got lucky. In my version he was smart enough to know where he was generally located the whole time. 

Why do you think he waited half an hour? 

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:30 PM by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 547]

1 hour ago, c99acer said:

I believe Ryan was one doing edits to the Wiki page many moons ago? I will watch for other sources. thanks,

I would never have added that scam to the Wiki. 

This gag video I made sums up what I think about Reca. His “confession” is one of the lamest things ever foisted upon the Vortex. That grift is an insult to anyone who honestly researches or cares about this case.

https://youtu.be/zlQMyhRA58w?si=kydoM85WybRWSem0

[FLYJACK 772]

19 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

This forum doesn’t have an audience and you don't have to speak or show your face here. That takes some guts and it’s what I mean by safe confines. Internet forums are a thing of the past, incase you haven’t noticed. Oh and news flash, you can do media without sharing your top secret research information. You have no shortage of research and opinions on the case, which you have shared on this public forum and shutter's site over the years, that the modern cooperite will never be exposed to because they are dead and buried on those outlets.  The majority of the people interested in the case today weren’t around in the “forums” era to soak up your superior NORJAK case knowledge. It's a cop out and nobody is buying it. Given how irked you are regarding the misquoting and trashing of your research and analysis, that you’d jump at the chance to set the record straight. If had to hazard a guess as to the real reason, I'd say it’s rooted in an insecurity. Maybe you have a hard time properly pronouncing the names of people, places, and things associated with the case or some something.

Nicky,,

What is a cop out? 

I have a project I am working on with others and they asked me not to discuss the case publicly..

Do you know something that I don't?

[olemisscub 547]

19 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

 

Why do you think he waited half an hour? 

 

Whether one believes he jumped at the Lewis River or further south, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he jumped once the plane was no longer over deep ass forest. 

[olemisscub 547]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

I have a project I am working on with others and they asked me not to discuss the case publicly..

 

But you are discussing it publicly. This is an open forum. 

[FLYJACK 772]

48 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I agree he knew the plane was generally heading South to Reno,, but that is about it. South is not a specific target.

If he was targeting a jump spot he would have made sure the plane was going to be there

Cooper knew they were heading South to Reno,, that is is it,, South is not a path.

This is a lot of the disagreement. His target is south! South is the path. He made sure the plane was going there, and the plane did in fact go there. And *he knew it was going south.* And he did in fact jump into ideal farmland. This is the genius of A to B. Cooper knows where he is at the whole time. He limited the variables.

Mac was winging it, he only knew to jump the lights. Cooper knew what lights he was jumping. That’s the gap from a criminal of Mac’s level to one of Cooper’s. 
 

You are using the fact that plane went close to PDX so Cooper knew it was going to happen,, he didn't have any control over that. The variables are NOT as tight as you believe. About 90 miles at St Helens and over 100 at the Oregon border.

Most hijacker's gave directions to their jump zone.. Cooper not only didn't but there is no reason he wouldn't in your scenario.

I have St. Helens closer to 75 miles from the coast but 90 works too. Then, you have to factor in the safety space, I’m not a commercial pilot but I imagine this is a few miles at least. That’s the far eastern edge. Amboy is like ten miles west of St Helens.  

Most highjackers gave directions, so did Cooper. He just didn’t use coordinates or victors because he didn’t need too, it’s more advantageous not to. Cooper wants to have the search zone as big as possible, so he certainly isn’t giving coordinates. And he does not say fly 23 because he doesn’t care…Seattle to southern Washington only requires the plane to go south. He isn’t aiming for 1.35 miles east of X and 2.65 miles north of Y. He is aiming for the farmlands *region* of southern Washington. And he was successful in that endeavor. 

All this business about the plane could have gone to the ocean or gone mountain top dodging to the east, etc. that’s not what happened. *Anything could have happened.*

And you say Cooper had no control over the direction the pilots took, he did. I disagree. He had a bomb and told them to fly south. They did what they were told and lived. He had total control, try some funny stuff and find out. They choice wisely. 

This he jump ad hoc business makes no sense. He had the stairs open at around 7:45  As you admit, he knows he is going south. He waits a half an hour and jumps the first lights at BG. In your version that’s just coincidence. In my version, that’s what makes sense. In your version Cooper is an idiot who just got lucky. In my version he was smart enough to know where he was generally located the whole time. 

Why do you think he waited half an hour? 

 

South is not a path. 

You are assuming he knew where he was, there is no evidence for that.

The middle stuff you wrote is pure conjecture.. means nothing.

But, the stair light went on about 7:42, that doesn't mean the stairs are open.

The stair light goes on when the handle is moved from the up lock detent.

Cooper complains that he can't get the stairs open,,  the pilot slows the plane.

He was struggling to get them open.. that was the delay.

 

But, you can make up just about any scenario you want,, there is no evidence for it and the evidence actually contradicts it..  Cooper did not give a course for the plane, South is not a course. 

 

I believe Cooper did not initially operate the lever properly, you need to press a button and press the lever in.. if you don't do that the light comes on when the lever is moved but the stairs don't open. He eventually figured out the lever.

I don't think the problem was actually the airspeed because Mac got the stairs open and jumped at a much higher speed.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:12 PM by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 772]

30 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

But you are discussing it publicly. This is an open forum. 

I know that is why I left for almost a year, I am not discussing the good new stuff though.

I should leave..

Edited Tuesday at 10:14 PM by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 772]

16 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Whether one believes he jumped at the Lewis River or further south, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he jumped once the plane was no longer over deep ass forest. 

It was more likely based on the time he was able to open the stairs and descend.. 

8:05 everything was ok,, from about then on he chose his leap..

It isn't even clear he could see the ground..

[olemisscub 547]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

I don't think the problem was actually the airspeed because Mac got the stairs open and jumped at a much higher speed.

 

Didn’t get them down by much though. At the start of this video I took at CC he indicates he only had a few feet of clearance even with his full weight at the bottom.

https://youtu.be/DQ7T7ioES_8?si=PRz3KEeTp0For8mx

[FLYJACK 772]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Didn’t get them down by much though. At the start of this video I took at CC he indicates he only had a few feet of clearance even with his full weight at the bottom.

https://youtu.be/DQ7T7ioES_8?si=PRz3KEeTp0For8mx

Yes,, NORJAK did not really have to slow down... they were doing about 160-170 k.. Mac was going a lot faster..

 

I believe Cooper did not operate the lever properly, initially.

People don't realize that the red stair light on indicates an unlocked condition,, triggered when the lever is moved from the up locked detent.. It does not indicate stairs are open.

Crew reported light at 7:42.. then later Tina in the cabin reported the stair light come on (again).. Cooper probably moved the lever back to the lock position turning off the light then forward again turning it on for the second time and properly lowering the stairs.

 

[georger 268]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

What safe confines, I get misquoted and trashed here all the time.. You guys blocked me from FB even though I never posted anything,, clearly you have no interest in my participation. I have been asked to join FB and told nobody wants me there simultaneously.. seriously, I am not interested in FB. It is riddled with bad ideas.

In fact. I am considering leaving here, I get nothing from participating and get attacked with absolute nonsense.

As for my project, it is legit and I don't owe you or anyone anything..

How can you claim I am hiding behind something if you don't know what it is.. sounds a tad irrational.

I have been asked many times to do media, some much bigger than any of you guys could dream of and passed not out of fear but because I am not interested in giving away my research publicly.. I really have no interest in sharing my stuff.. 

As usual Nicky you have a knack for misreading the room...

You can retire now, nobody will notice.

Georger doesn't do media because he has nothing to say,, I don't do media because I have too much to say..

Fact is I have always supported you. I supported you on Shutter;s site and told people to be tolerant.

You have a mastery of files and docs which is far far above anyone else. Other people wouldnt devote the time but you do! 

If you are looking for praise there it is. Im just being factual.

[georger 268]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It was more likely based on the time he was able to open the stairs and descend.. 

8:05 everything was ok,, from about then on he chose his leap..

It isn't even clear he could see the ground..

Odds are he probably saw skyglow ahead. If he saw that he knew a large urban area was close by. Rat saw sky glow. Other pilots flying south and landing at nearby airports could see the lights of Vancouver-Portland. What exempts Cooper? 

We dont know who Cooper was or what his actual knowledge was. He had identified Tacoma from SEA from the air and knew the mileage.... he went into the hijacking with a timeline in mind. He demonstrated flexibility. Did he have a specific plan? Uncertain. But he didnt waste any time leaving the plane before it had crossed PDX. He may have tried to do that. I know you disagree . . . we will probably never know for certain.

If Cooper had a local connection he could very easily have vanished and left the area later, never to be seen or heard from again. I have always been suspicious that Cooper had local ties ? He may have even had second thoughts about keeping the money and decided why take the risk of keeping it. I think his hijacking was precisely what he said it was: a grudge. Once the grudge is satisfied why risk anything further .... case closed.

I know this is not what a lot of people want to hear!

Edited Wednesday at 04:10 AM by georger

[Kamkisky 13]

29 minutes ago, georger said:

Odds are he probably saw skyglow ahead. If he saw that he knew a large urban area was close by. Rat saw sky glow. Other pilots flying south and landing at nearby airports could see the lights of Vancouver-Portland. What exempts Cooper? 

We dont know who Cooper was or what his actual knowledge was. He had identified Tacoma from SEA from the air and knew the mileage.... he went into the hijacking with a timeline in mind. He demonstrated flexibility. Did he have a specific plan? Uncertain. But he didnt waste any time leaving the plane before it had crossed PDX. He may have tried to do that. I know you disagree . . . we will probably never know for certain.

If Cooper had a local connection he could very easily have vanished and left the area later, never to be seen or heard from again. I have always been suspicious that Cooper had local ties ? He may have even had second thoughts about keeping the money and decided why take the risk of keeping it. I think his hijacking was precisely what he said it was: a grudge. Once the grudge is satisfied why risk anything further .... case closed.

I know this is not what a lot of people want to hear!

Rat saw sky glow.

Can you point me to documentation of this? Thanks. 

[Kamkisky 13]

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Whether one believes he jumped at the Lewis River or further south, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he jumped once the plane was no longer over deep ass forest. 

Of course not. Agreed.

At night in triple cloud cover PNW grey, one is jumping lights. What else is there besides randomness or maybe mountain tops? Cooper went through a lot of thought process to jump at random. This wasn’t a drunk guy knocking off the local 7-11. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:25 AM by Kamkisky

[monk71 3]

Did Cooper wear Ray-Ban Wayfarer sunglasses? If not, do we have any idea what brand/style it likely was? Were they described as wrap-around?

This probably has no evidentiary value and is unlikely to advance the case, but it just bugs me how images show such a variety... just another blurred detail of the vortex. I think one video showed McCoy as wearing mirrored sunglasses.

[Robert99 60]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes,, NORJAK did not really have to slow down... they were doing about 160-170 k.. Mac was going a lot faster..

 

OleMiss is right.  The airliner really did have to slow down.

The NWA performance group in Minneapolis told the crew to fly at an Indicated Air Speed of 170 Knots to achieve the best range for the aircraft configuration that Cooper specified.

At 10,000 feet pressure altitude with the existing temperature, that 170 KIAS becomes 195 Knots True Air Speed.

And that 195 KTAS is 225 MPH.

Considering the construction of the aft fuselage of the 727, it is unlikely that Cooper could stand upright or even close to it once he was past the stairs hinge point.

[georger 268]

2 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Rat saw sky glow.

Can you point me to documentation of this? Thanks. 

Its a well known statement. May be in the flight comms ?  Was during Rat's last communication with Cooper. Today some people claim Rat never said it. Finding it would take me a year!

Edited Wednesday at 06:42 AM by georger

[Kamkisky 13]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

South is not a path. 

You are assuming he knew where he was, there is no evidence for that.

The middle stuff you wrote is pure conjecture.. means nothing.

But, the stair light went on about 7:42, that doesn't mean the stairs are open.

The stair light goes on when the handle is moved from the up lock detent.

Cooper complains that he can't get the stairs open,,  the pilot slows the plane.

He was struggling to get them open.. that was the delay.

 

But, you can make up just about any scenario you want,, there is no evidence for it and the evidence actually contradicts it..  Cooper did not give a course for the plane, South is not a course. 

 

I believe Cooper did not initially operate the lever properly, you need to press a button and press the lever in.. if you don't do that the light comes on when the lever is moved but the stairs don't open. He eventually figured out the lever.

I don't think the problem was actually the airspeed because Mac got the stairs open and jumped at a much higher speed.

 

 

What time do you have him sending Tina to the cockpit?  

[Kamkisky 13]

10 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

OleMiss is right.  The airliner really did have to slow down.

The NWA performance group in Minneapolis told the crew to fly at an Indicated Air Speed of 170 Knots to achieve the best range for the aircraft configuration that Cooper specified.

At 10,000 feet pressure altitude with the existing temperature, that 170 KIAS becomes 195 Knots True Air Speed.

And that 195 KTAS is 225 MPH.

Considering the construction of the aft fuselage of the 727, it is unlikely that Cooper could stand upright or even close to it once he was past the stairs hinge point.

I find this part fascinating. 

Cooper basically gave the Air America drop configuration. But it didn’t work. He asked for the crew to slow down. 
 

What do you believe was the speed he jumped at? And how was that speed achieved (did the flaps stay at 15 degrees)?

[Robert99 60]

6 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I find this part fascinating. 

Cooper basically gave the Air America drop configuration. But it didn’t work. He asked for the crew to slow down. 
 

What do you believe was the speed he jumped at? And how was that speed achieved (did the flaps stay at 15 degrees)?

My understanding is that the aft stairs were removed for serious Air America drops and that a metallic slide was installed down to the bottom of the fuselage.  So jumpers and cargo just slid out the bottom of the fuselage.

I am not aware of any information on the flap position at the time of the jump, but my guess is that it was still at 15 degrees, and the airspeed was still in the neighborhood of 225 MPH.