DB Cooper

[georger 268]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

NO, I never said he wiped his prints off everything.. you are making it up.

I said he might have used the tie to wipe prints because many were smeared or partial..

They have some unidentified partials and a palm print from the seat area, those might not even be Cooper's.. it would seem he did obscure his prints in some way.

They also have unidentified prints from letters.

Why would "I" make up your posts about using the tie to wipe ..................  you posted photos showing what you said is evidence of using the tie to wipe ....................  make up your mind !

Nothing you post should be taken seriously.

Edited July 8 by georger

[georger 268]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Too much misinformation and bad ideas..

No, Cooper did not demand nonstop to Mexico City...

He demanded no stopping in US for any reason can refuel anywhere in Mexico.

He gave no instructions for path and did not know the route the plane was flying to Reno..  He DID NOT jump at BG.

The plane could have been anywhere along a 100+ mile wide line crossing near the Oregon border. From Mt Hood to over the Ocean... Cooper did not target PDX.

 

Did Cooper swallow? Use his bladder? Walk on to the plane?  What will you allow Cooper to be and do ?

[FLYJACK 772]

11 minutes ago, georger said:

Why would "I" make up your posts about using the tie to wipe ..................  you posted photos showing what you said is evidence of using the tie to wipe ....................  make up your mind !

Nothing you post should be taken seriously.

It is really clear,, you have an inability to be honest, accurate or rational.

Your claim that I said Cooper used the tie to wipe everything is false, you made it up.

I suggested he may have used the tie to try to wipe his prints.

That is not inconsistent with partial finger and palm prints being found...  those may or may not even be Cooper's.

You are just trying to make an issue out of nothing.

 

[Kamkisky 13]

6 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Too much misinformation and bad ideas..

No, Cooper did not demand nonstop to Mexico City...

He demanded no stopping in US for any reason can refuel anywhere in Mexico.

He gave no instructions for path and did not know the route the plane was flying to Reno..  He DID NOT jump at BG.

The plane could have been anywhere along a 100+ mile wide line crossing near the Oregon border. From Mt Hood to over the Ocean... Cooper did not target PDX.

 

Again, why would a parajacker accept a westerly flight path on or near the coast? It makes no sense. 
 

And you can’t start your 100 mile measure south of Portland and pretend St. Helen’s doesn’t exist. 

Nor should one ignore the lights of I-5 as a guide. Or the possibility of Cooper having a compass. Or Cooper just in general paying attention to the flight direction. 
 

Cooper didn’t ask for southwest. He didn’t ask for southeast. He only gave or agreed to south. Reno and Mexico are south. If he agreed to Denver…or Hawaii…

Edited July 8 by Kamkisky

[georger 268]

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is really clear,, you have an inability to be honest, accurate or rational.

Your claim that I said Cooper used the tie to wipe everything is false, you made it up.

I suggested he may have used the tie to try to wipe his prints.

That is not inconsistent with partial finger and palm prints being found...  those may or may not even be Cooper's.

You are just trying to make an issue out of nothing.

 

Well, you were very intense-certain about your theory. I seem to recall you saying it was OBVIOUS!!!!! the tie showed smearing consistent with wiping. At least as serious as you are now denying ......  it was your idea. I wondered at the time why Kaye had missed what was so obvious to you! You posted several photos documenting your theory.

Your claim that I said Cooper used the tie to wipe everything is false, you made it up.

I suggested he may have used the tie to try to wipe his prints.

Is this a new riddle? 

"Your claim that I said Cooper used the tie to wipe everything is false, you made it up. I suggested he may have used the tie to try to wipe his prints."

Since prints are on surfaces of things, how do you wipe prints without wiping surfaces and areas ......................

Or is this a grift   or graft   or   cock-n-bull  ?

 

Edited July 8 by georger

[FLYJACK 772]

Georger, it is clear over the years that you have demonstrated an inability to be accurate and apply reason and logic..

I suggested he may have used the tie to wipe his prints based on the horizontal lines on the tie, the fact that some prints were smeared and the tie was found on the seat. A perfectly reasonable theory. I never said he wiped everything.. you added that to undermine my pursuit of the partial prints from the seat area. 

Both can be true but you altered my theory to undermine it. A straw-man.

You always do this,, you just can't help yourself,, it seems as though you just don't want me advancing this case.. 

 

[FLYJACK 772]

12 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

Again, why would a parajacker accept a westerly flight path on or near the coast? It makes no sense. 
 

And you can’t start your 100 mile measure south of Portland and pretend St. Helen’s doesn’t exist. 

Nor should one ignore the lights of I-5 as a guide. Or the possibility of Cooper having a compass. Or Cooper just in general paying attention to the flight direction. 
 

Cooper didn’t ask for southwest. He didn’t ask for southeast. He only gave or agreed to south. Reno and Mexico are south. If he agreed to Denver…or Hawaii…

A theory should fit within the facts of the case,, the more facts the better the theory.

Cooper didn't accept or reject any flight path, the crew seriously considered going out over the ocean. They crew could have taken any path.

At the Oregon border there is over a 100 mile stretch that the plane could have been.. V23 was 10 miles wide itself.

If Cooper targeted a jump spot he would have demanded the plane's path matched and he could see the ground. He did not give a path and it is not certian he could have seen the ground.

Cooper did not have pre-knowledge of the path. He knew it was heading generally South. He might have looked down and figured out where he was depending on cloud cover but he did not direct the plane to a specific location.

He did not jump at BG, he jumped about 20-25 miles North of PDX..

The theory that Cooper targeting PDX and jumped to a predetermined spot is not supported by any evidence. It is completely made up.

Edited July 8 by FLYJACK

[haggarknew 5]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

A theory should fit within the facts of the case,, the more facts the better the theory.

Cooper didn't accept or reject any flight path, the crew seriously considered going out over the ocean. They crew could have taken any path.

At the Oregon border there is over a 100 mile stretch that the plane could have been.. V23 was 10 miles wide itself.

If Cooper targeted a jump spot he would have demanded the plane's path matched and he could see the ground. He did not give a path and it is not certian he could have seen the ground.

Cooper did not heave pre-knowledge of the path. He knew it was heading generally South. He might have looked down and figured out where he was depending on cloud cover but he did not direct the plane to a specific location.

He did not jump at BG, he jumped about 20-25 miles North of PDX..

The theory that Cooper targeting PDX and jumped to a predetermined spot is not supported by any evidence. It is completely made up.

I would love to discuss this in person!!  Any chance of that happening at the Cooper Convention?

[FLYJACK 772]

16 minutes ago, haggarknew said:

I would love to discuss this in person!!  Any chance of that happening at the Cooper Convention?

I have no plans to attend..

[Kamkisky 13]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

A theory should fit within the facts of the case,, the more facts the better the theory.

Cooper didn't accept or reject any flight path, the crew seriously considered going out over the ocean. They crew could have taken any path.

At the Oregon border there is over a 100 mile stretch that the plane could have been.. V23 was 10 miles wide itself.

If Cooper targeted a jump spot he would have demanded the plane's path matched and he could see the ground. He did not give a path and it is not certian he could have seen the ground.

Cooper did not have pre-knowledge of the path. He knew it was heading generally South. He might have looked down and figured out where he was depending on cloud cover but he did not direct the plane to a specific location.

He did not jump at BG, he jumped about 20-25 miles North of PDX..

The theory that Cooper targeting PDX and jumped to a predetermined spot is not supported by any evidence. It is completely made up.

At the Oregon border there is over a 100 mile stretch that the plane could have been.. V23 was 10 miles wide itself.

Does Mt. St Helens exist? What you say about the boarder is right but it’s not relevant. Unless the plane either went in between the Helens/Admas/Reiner triangle or immediately zags east after St. Helens your point doesn’t matter. Do you believe the plane did or was going to do either of those things? You start at Mt. Hood as your basis, yet it’s the last one coming south. You have to account for the other mountains too. Look how far St. Helen’s is from the coast. That’s the real measure on the east. 
 

If Cooper targeted a jump spot he would have demanded the plane's path matched and he could see the ground. He did not give a path and it is not certian he could have seen the ground.

Cooper did not have pre-knowledge of the path. He knew it was heading generally South. He might have looked down and figured out where he was depending on cloud cover but he did not direct the plane to a specific location.

Cooper did have pre knowledge of the path, south from Seattle. And what is south of Seattle….Portland. He doesn’t need to give a victor or coordinates, why would he do that? He chose a short flight wedged in by mountains and an ocean. This is the advantage of a basic A to B approach. The variables are limited. 

Let me ask you this…do you think Cooper could tell which direction the plane was going after takeoff from Seattle? If the answer is yes, he got what he wanted. South. He said enough to achieve the goal. 50 years in people are arguing over victors etc., he didn’t care. Just go south and the plane will fly over the southern Washington farmlands he wanted. It’s basic and simple and actionable. 
 

He did not jump at BG, he jumped about 20-25 miles North of PDX..

The theory that Cooper targeting PDX and jumped to a predetermined spot is not supported by any evidence. It is completely made up.

Your geography puts him jumping just north of BG. It’s almost like he jumped when he saw the first lights after the dark forest! Jumping the lights is also how Mac did it. It makes sense, it’s the best marker. Cooper could spot Tacoma from the air, he knows the area from above. 

You version is Cooper as idiot who jumps at random and hopes. Yet, the crime was thought out and he got away. My version is he did what guys who came later like Mac did. Cooper used the best markers on the ground to have a solid idea of where he was and he jumped the lights. We just disagree. 

Edited July 8 by Kamkisky

[haggarknew 5]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I have no plans to attend..

Bummer!

 

[FLYJACK 772]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

At the Oregon border there is over a 100 mile stretch that the plane could have been.. V23 was 10 miles wide itself.

Does Mt. St Helens exist? What you say about the boarder is right but it’s not relevant. Unless the plane either went in between the Helens/Admas/Reiner triangle or immediately zags east after St. Helens your point doesn’t matter. Do you believe the plane did or was going to do either of those things? You start at Mt. Hood as your basis, yet it’s the last one coming south. You have to account for the other mountains too. Look how far St. Helen’s is from the coast. That’s the real measure on the east. 
 

If Cooper targeted a jump spot he would have demanded the plane's path matched and he could see the ground. He did not give a path and it is not certian he could have seen the ground.

Cooper did not have pre-knowledge of the path. He knew it was heading generally South. He might have looked down and figured out where he was depending on cloud cover but he did not direct the plane to a specific location.

Cooper did have pre knowledge of the path, south from Seattle. And what is south of Seattle….Portland. He doesn’t need to give a victor or coordinates, why would he do that? He chose a short flight wedged in by mountains and an ocean. This is the advantage of a basic A to B approach. The variables are limited. 

Let me ask you this…do you think Cooper could tell which direction the plane was going after takeoff from Seattle? If the answer is yes, he got what he wanted. South. He said enough to achieve the goal. 50 years in people are arguing over victors etc., he didn’t care. Just go south and the plane will fly over the southern Washington farmlands he wanted. It’s basic and simple and actionable. 
 

He did not jump at BG, he jumped about 20-25 miles North of PDX..

The theory that Cooper targeting PDX and jumped to a predetermined spot is not supported by any evidence. It is completely made up.

Your geography puts him jumping just north of BG. It’s almost like he jumped when he saw the first lights after the dark forest! Jumping the lights is also how Mac did it. It makes sense, it’s the best marker. Cooper could spot Tacoma from the air, he knows the area from above. 

You version is Cooper as idiot who jumps at random and hopes. Yet, the crime was thought out and he got away. My version is he did what guys who came later like Mac did. Cooper used the best markers on the ground to have a solid idea of where he was and he jumped the lights. We just disagree. 

You are making a bad conclusion based on poor assumptions..

The plane could have flown East of St Helens and be below 10000 ft. If we measure the distance from St Helens to the coast it is about 90 miles.. and of course the plane could swing around it if the crew chose to. So, you are just wrong on that point.

Cooper knew they were heading South to Reno,, that is is it,, South is not a path.

You are using the fact that plane went close to PDX so Cooper knew it was going to happen,, he didn't have any control over that. The variables are NOT as tight as you believe. About 90 miles at St Helens and over 100 at the Oregon border.

Most hijacker's gave directions to their jump zone.. Cooper not only didn't but there is no reason he wouldn't in your scenario.

Things are not so simple.. if they were this thing would have been solved long ago.

Cooper was delayed having trouble getting the stairs down, there is no evidence that he wanted to jump when he saw the lights.. that is made up. I believe he wanted to jump even earlier than he did.. 

We don't know exactly what Cooper could see on the ground with the clouds..  or if he knew the terrain well enough to identify markers.. 

I agree he knew the plane was generally heading South to Reno,, but that is about it. South is not a specific target.

If he was targeting a jump spot he would have made sure the plane was going to be there. His jump spot was not planned, it was ad hoc.

You keep using Mac as some sort of argument.. he isn't.

He demanded the plane fly toward Toronto and jumped, he did not have a specific target.. neither did Cooper, at least after Reno was in play..

For Cooper, Reno was not his initial demand, it was a renegotiation.

It is not that I just disagree per se.. that suggests a difference of opinion. In reality, your theory is not supported by any evidence or an argument, it is just made up of assumptions, some wrong.. People can make up all sorts of things for this case and they often do.. Quality theories fit into the evidence, the better the fit the better the theory. Better theories get vetted to potentially advance the case. That is how things progress.

 

From Tina... Can refuel anywhere in Mexico..

Edited July 8 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 548]

30 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

You keep using Mac as some sort of argument.. he isn't.

He demanded the plane fly toward Toronto and jumped, he did not have a target.. neither did Cooper.

 

Indeed. Mac is an example of winging it and successfully surviving and getting away from his DZ.

Of course we can’t know for certain, but It’s logical that Cooper must have been looking for some sort of lights to at least know he wasn’t over water or heavy forest. Part of winging it would be to wait for some sort of indication of what is below you. None of us nor none of these dudes would jump over pitch darkness. If you’re winging it then you have no reason to not just wait until you’re comfortable with what is beneath you, which is what Mac did. 

Of course, Hahneman is probably the best counter example. I can’t imagine he saw much (or any) civilization below him when he jumped. I wouldn’t consider him a particularly rational hijacker though. I know you do, but I don’t find him to be a particularly good analog to Cooper.

Of all the copycats, Mac is the closest analog to Cooper in personality. He stayed pretty calm throughout, behaved rationally, was good natured with the crew like Cooper, and was obviously winging it. The main distinction between them is parachute knowledge. Mac knew nothing about them - Cooper knew something about them. 

Edited July 8 by olemisscub

[georger 268]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Georger, it is clear over the years that you have demonstrated an inability to be accurate and apply reason and logic..

I suggested he may have used the tie to wipe his prints based on the horizontal lines on the tie, the fact that some prints were smeared and the tie was found on the seat. A perfectly reasonable theory. I never said he wiped everything.. you added that to undermine my pursuit of the partial prints from the seat area. 

Both can be true but you altered my theory to undermine it. A straw-man.

You always do this,, you just can't help yourself,, it seems as though you just don't want me advancing this case.. 

 

Well in fact, YOU are irrelevant. You suffer from premature and incomplete .... everything.

You and that aside, the issue is WIPING! Using the tie to wipe prints. You posted photos claiming to show it. I couldnt see 'it' because I am too stupid. 

In the meantime Tom finds zillions of particles some of them rare on the tie. Turns the area around jet engines is a particle rich environment. That includes the air stair area of a 727. Maybe the zillions of particles on the tie is  from the tie being used to wipe things down in that area? That might explain all the particles.

Lets just say that was  your thought all along. Since you are the top thinker in the Cooper case. I am sure you have already suggested this somewhere. Since you are the Cheif Evaluator of Thinking in the DB Cooper case rivaled only by Eric Ulis and Tony Soprano. 

 

[FLYJACK 772]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Indeed. Mac is an example of winging it and successfully surviving and getting away from his DZ.

Of course we can’t know for certain, but It’s logical that Cooper must have been looking for some sort of lights to at least know he wasn’t over water or heavy forest. Part of winging it would be to wait for some sort of indication of what is below you. None of us nor none of these dudes would jump over pitch darkness. If you’re winging it then you have no reason to not just wait until you’re comfortable with what is beneath you, which is what Mac did. 

Of course, Hahneman is probably the best counter example. I can’t imagine he saw much (or any) civilization below him when he jumped. I wouldn’t consider him a particularly rational hijacker though. I know you do, but I don’t find him to be a particularly good analog to Cooper.

Of all the copycats, Mac is the closest analog to Cooper in personality. He stayed pretty calm throughout, behaved rationally, was good natured with the crew like Cooper, and was obviously winging it. The main distinction between them is parachute knowledge. Mac knew nothing about them - Cooper knew something about them. 

Of course we can assume Cooper was looking for some area he thought was land or safer.. and more comfortable. 

But, it is an assumption by some that Cooper could read the markers, we don't know that he could see them or even knew them.

Hahneman was highly intelligent based on his background and those that knew him, while in flight he gave the crew precise lat/long coords to jump.. rolling hills and farmer's fields. There are some inaccurate reports in the media and the FBI faked a problem with the plane forcing him to switch planes using the crew as cover from sharpshooters. Mac also switched planes using the crew. Cooper got complete co-operation and had it easy.

Beyond parachute knowledge Mac was also more violent than Cooper.

 

But, there is no evidence to support Cooper jumping at a predetermined targeted spot. The evidence suggests otherwise.

[FLYJACK 772]

28 minutes ago, georger said:

Well in fact, YOU are irrelevant. You suffer from premature and incomplete .... everything.

You and that aside, the issue is WIPING! Using the tie to wipe prints. You posted photos claiming to show it. I couldnt see 'it' because I am too stupid. 

In the meantime Tom finds zillions of particles some of them rare on the tie. Turns the area around jet engines is a particle rich environment. That includes the air stair area of a 727. Maybe the zillions of particles on the tie is  from the tie being used to wipe things down in that area? That might explain all the particles.

Lets just say that was  your thought all along. Since you are the top thinker in the Cooper case. I am sure you have already suggested this somewhere. Since you are the Cheif Evaluator of Thinking in the DB Cooper case rivaled only by Eric Ulis and Tony Soprano. 

 

Nonsense.. 

The tie has horizontal particle smears that could be caused by wiping.. I posted that image.

I never said all particles were from the plane, only that some might be.. not only because of possible wiping but because the bulkhead door was open with the engine right there. That is reasonable speculation.

and this has nothing to do with the partial prints..

I guess you just don't want me to get them from the FBI..

you should be afraid Georger,, be very afraid.

Edited July 8 by FLYJACK

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Indeed. Mac is an example of winging it and successfully surviving and getting away from his DZ.

Of course we can’t know for certain, but It’s logical that Cooper must have been looking for some sort of lights to at least know he wasn’t over water or heavy forest. Part of winging it would be to wait for some sort of indication of what is below you. None of us nor none of these dudes would jump over pitch darkness. If you’re winging it then you have no reason to not just wait until you’re comfortable with what is beneath you, which is what Mac did. 

Of course, Hahneman is probably the best counter example. I can’t imagine he saw much (or any) civilization below him when he jumped. I wouldn’t consider him a particularly rational hijacker though. I know you do, but I don’t find him to be a particularly good analog to Cooper.

Of all the copycats, Mac is the closest analog to Cooper in personality. He stayed pretty calm throughout, behaved rationally, was good natured with the crew like Cooper, and was obviously winging it. The main distinction between them is parachute knowledge. Mac knew nothing about them - Cooper knew something about them. 

You know almost nothing about Cooper, his background, etc. Almost literally nothing.

The urge to paint Cooper as a nobody, knew nothing even stupid bank robber ... or going to the other extreme (senior manager in specialized metals research in the nuke industry) ... seems to be irresistible. Why does this debate have to wobble between extremes?

Cooper solved every problem he encountered and did so easily except for the delay in refueling. He even left himself open tactically which may not have been unintentional. He lulled the pilots to sleep almost literally until they werent even sure where he left! He left everyone empty handed! The urge to paint this guy a common criminal like this or that person may be exactly what he wanted everyone to do! He may have known you better than you know him!

Early in his hijacking Cooper made several very decisive evaluations-decisions which framed much of what happened from there on right up to his leaving. That stands out to me. 

Edited July 8 by georger

[georger 268]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Nonsense.. 

The tie has horizontal particle smears that could be caused by wiping.. I posted that image.

I never said all particles were from the plane, only that some might be.. not only because of possible wiping but because the bulkhead door was open with the engine right there.

and this has nothing to do with the partial prints..

I guess you just don't want me to get them from the FBI..

you should be afraid Georger,, be very afraid.

Afraid of what?  Why should I be afraid ............ ?   More Flyjack psychobabble ....

[FLYJACK 772]

2 minutes ago, georger said:

Afraid of what?  Why should I be afraid ............ ?   More Flyjack psychobabble ....

irrelevance..

[c99acer 8]

23 minutes ago, georger said:

Well in fact, YOU are irrelevant. You suffer from premature and incomplete .... everything.

You and that aside, the issue is WIPING! Using the tie to wipe prints. You posted photos claiming to show it. I couldnt see 'it' because I am too stupid. 

In the meantime Tom finds zillions of particles some of them rare on the tie. Turns the area around jet engines is a particle rich environment. That includes the air stair area of a 727. Maybe the zillions of particles on the tie is  from the tie being used to wipe things down in that area? That might explain all the particles.

Lets just say that was  your thought all along. Since you are the top thinker in the Cooper case. I am sure you have already suggested this somewhere. Since you are the Cheif Evaluator of Thinking in the DB Cooper case rivaled only by Eric Ulis and Tony Soprano. 

 

Since you are still chatting about smudged fingerprints, here is a note from one of the known Cooper candidates. He seems to know they wouldn't find finger prints on his plane. 

Also something more about the possible origin of the tie!

I am not pushing any suspect, just found this today with an online search. Might be a possibility for any of the candidates?

[FLYJACK 772]

7 minutes ago, c99acer said:

Since you are still chatting about smudged fingerprints, here is a note from one of the known Cooper candidates. He seems to know they wouldn't find finger prints on his plane. 

Also something more about the possible origin of the tie!

I am not pushing any suspect, just found this today with an online search. Might be a possibility for any of the candidates?

No, step away from the Reca... 

[Nicholas Broughton 78]

27 minutes ago, georger said:

Afraid of what?  Why should I be afraid ............ ?   More Flyjack psychobabble ....

That’s funny, I think the only one afraid is Flyjack. He’s too scared to step outside the safe confines of the dropzone forum. Runs from media opportunities like it’s the plague, won’t do podcasts, youtube, cooper cons, ect. He’s hid behind this “project” for over a decade. Put me on record, if it ever comes out, I’ll retire from the case/vortex.  

Edited July 8 by Nicholas Broughton

[c99acer 8]

14 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, step away from the Reca... 

Got any other suspects you can point me toward with personal confession of this heist? I will check that out.

[FLYJACK 772]

10 minutes ago, c99acer said:

Got any other suspects you can point me toward with personal confession of this heist? I will check that out.

Reca is not a suspect,, he is a grift.

[georger 268]

23 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

That’s funny, I think the only one afraid is Flyjack. He’s too scared to step outside the safe confines of the dropzone forum. Runs from media opportunities like it’s the plague, won’t do podcasts, youtube, cooper cons, ect. He’s hid behind this “project” for over a decade. Put me on record, if it ever comes out, I’ll retire from the case/vortex.  

Thanks! Seems to me we know so little about Cooper it is pointless to say what he knew and didnt know ... or what his intentions were ?