DB Cooper

[olemisscub 549]

20 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

because you have no evidence, no logical inference, no argument, no idea that support in any way shape or form that Cooper had an accomplice or transportation at PDX.. 

 

I said IF he started his day in Portland.

Those are ABSOLUTELY logical inferences IF he started his day in Portland. Sure, he may have flown into Portland days earlier and may have been staying somewhere for a few days. Or maybe he flew in that morning. But it's absolutely logical to think that if he began his day there that he had transportation there otherwise you're totally relying on him arriving in Portland by air.

We have NO way of knowing how Cooper got to Portland. 

Yet you are essentially telling everyone on this message board right now that you KNOW FOR A FACT that Cooper flew in from somewhere else and didn't drive himself to Portland or have an accomplice who dropped him off. 

Because having proof of that is the only way that it isn't logical to think that if he started his day in Portland that he may have been dropped off at the airport or drove into the area himself. 

[FLYJACK 773]

35 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I’m going based off what Fly says was his goal, Mexico… and comparing that to what actually happened. 

What I’m missing is why he gave up on his goal *when he didn’t have to*? He knew the plane had the fuel and range to get to Mexico.  

Couple scenarios: 

1 - Cooper insists on his original goal. He tells them to fly straight to Mexico. In this scenario Cooper gets what he wants. 
 

2 - Cooper agrees to stop in Reno, which in turn causes him to jump into randomness before landing in Reno. In this scenario he doesn’t get what he wants.  
 

Why pick option two? He gains nothing. He loses his main goal according to Fly. He ends up jumping and hoping at random. All of this when he could have just said a single sentence…fly straight to Mexico and I’ll give future instructions. If Fly is right and Mexico is his goal he is one sentence away from achieving it. Yet….
 

This situation makes more sense IMO if you take the request to go to Mexico not as his goal but as a way to drag out the search area and increase his get away time. With this understanding his openness to negotiate Reno makes sense, it still accomplishes what he wanted. 
 

I like a simple Cooper. Point A to B and back to A. Know the terrain, read the signs viable from the air. Jump into farmland. The plane can continue on to Mexico or Reno…he doesn’t care. 

His goal is the money..

 

[FLYJACK 773]

11 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I said IF he started his day in Portland.

Those are ABSOLUTELY logical inferences IF he started his day in Portland. Sure, he may have flown into Portland days earlier and may have been staying somewhere for a few days. Or maybe he flew in that morning. But it's absolutely logical to think that if he began his day there that he had transportation there otherwise you're totally relying on him arriving in Portland by air.

We have NO way of knowing how Cooper got to Portland. 

Yet you are essentially telling everyone on this message board right now that you KNOW FOR A FACT that Cooper flew in from somewhere else and didn't drive himself to Portland or have an accomplice who dropped him off. 

Because having proof of that is the only way that it isn't logical to think that if he started his day in Portland that he may have been dropped off at the airport or drove into the area himself. 

That is a lie,, I said it was a theory. Stop straw-manning.

You always resort to lies Ryan.. 

You want low level speculation go back to FB..

[FunnyStuff 8]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1Bo6kbE9P4/

 

Tom Kaye posted the last scan from McCrones here last night to the Facebook group.  He said in a separate post that it will not be uploaded to his citizen sleuth website so you need to get it while you can. I've been waiting on this for a while and ready to start looking into it

[Kamkisky 13]

22 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

His goal is the money..

 

He has the money. He has the chutes. He has a refueled plane that can make it to Mexico. He has won. He is one sentence away from Mexico.   
 

Im trying to live in this theory and this is the part I’m not getting. Cooper didn’t forget the plane could make it to Mexico based on whatever miscommunications are happening.  

Edited June 7 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 773]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

 

Here's another thing. And this isn't a dig at your support for Hahneman. But, believing that Cooper was Hahneman, you're naturally going to view things through that prism. So why would Cooper be so afraid of a refueling stop in America when 7 months later Hahneman is the one who requests a refueling stop in New Orleans? They weren't flying dirty when they left D.C. They could have easily made it to Honduras in that configuration from D.C. New Orleans really wasn't even a necessary stop to reach his DZ, yet HE is the one who asked for a refueling stop. 

Explain this incongruence and don't you dare say something about having some off the record knowledge that would explain this if we ONLY knew what you know. 

This is actually a great question for a change.

The range on the 727's varied by model and year,, it was 1800 miles from Dulles to Honduras,, but the plane landed in Mexico after the jump, another 500 miles, plus the big loop, close to 2500 miles..  So, it did need to refuel.

Hahneman was very helpful to the crew and told them were to fly avoid mountains and make it to a safe landing.

That plane had to refuel.. why pick New Orleans,, he lived there, his father died and is buried there, maybe some emotional thing.

but 100% it did need to refuel.

I just realized something.. it was 1500 miles to Mexico from Dulles, across the Gulf Mexico,, planes don't fly close to their limit especially over water but that may be why he chose New Orleans for fuel..  

Edited June 8 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 773]

30 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

He has the money. He has the chutes. He has a refueled plane that can make it to Mexico. He has won. He is one sentence away from Mexico.   
 

Im trying to live in this theory and this is the part I’m not getting. Cooper didn’t forget the plane could make it to Mexico based on whatever miscommunications are happening.  

So, the plane was still going to Mexico after Reno... the only change was refuelling in US vs Mexico..

He rejected large US airports for refuelling, that means he still expected to be on the plane in Reno.. and was concerned about the airport.

But, he just decided, right or wrong that he would jump before Reno, we aren't in his head or understand his perception at the time, maybe he just got worried about getting rushed on the ground in Reno.. that makes sense if he didn't have a gun. If he was rushed on the ground in Reno with a fake bomb he was dead, if he was rushed with a real bomb he was dead. Maybe jumping early was the best option given the circumstances.

because we don't know exactly why he decided to jump early doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Edited June 7 by FLYJACK

[Kamkisky 13]

50 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

So, the plane was still going to Mexico after Reno... the only change was refuelling in US vs Mexico..

He rejected large US airports for refuelling, that means he still expected to be on the plane in Reno.. and was concerned about the airport.

But, he just decided, right or wrong that he would jump before Reno, we aren't in his head or understand his perception at the time, maybe he just got worried about getting rushed on the ground in Reno.. that makes sense if he didn't have a gun. If he was rushed on the ground in Reno with a fake bomb he was dead, if he was rushed with a real bomb he was dead. Maybe jumping early was the best option given the circumstances.

because we don't know exactly why he decided to jump early doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Seems to me Cooper traded the refuel stops resulting from flying dirty for a straight shot to Mexico. And in your theory that was a bad trade, it resulted in him having to jump at random.  
 

In my theory that makes sense, get the escape hatch and configuration secured asap. If that means the plane ghosts to Reno instead of Mexico so what. He was never going to be on the plane the next time it lands anyways. Cooper and everyone else knows the more he touches down the higher the likelihood the FBI separates his head from his body with a sniper. One touchdown is all he wanted…and it worked. 
 

If Cooper was really planning to go to Mexico he doesn’t need to be wearing a chute and strapped money bag in Seattle. However, if he plans to jump at Portland it makes sense.  It’s the opposite of Eric U’s theory on an early jump right after takeoff. In that theory Cooper isn’t prepared enough for takeoff. His level of jump prep and the 30 minute wait all IMO point to a planned jump about where he did. Maybe he had a few areas and visual cues further south if he missed BG/Portland.  I could see himself giving himself optionality. 

Edited June 8 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 773]

5 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Seems to me Cooper traded the refuel stops resulting from flying dirty for a straight shot to Mexico. And in your theory that was a bad trade, it resulted in him having to jump at random.  
 

In my theory that makes sense, get the escape hatch and configuration secured asap. If that means the plane ghosts to Reno instead of Mexico so what. He was never going to be on the plane the next time it lands anyways. Cooper and everyone else knows the more he touches down the higher the likelihood the FBI separates his head from his body with a sniper. One touchdown is all he wanted…and it worked. 
 

If Cooper was really planning to go to Mexico he doesn’t need to be wearing a chute and strapped money bag in Seattle. However, if he plans to jump at Portland it makes sense.  It’s the opposite of Eric U’s theory on an early jump right after takeoff. In that theory Cooper isn’t prepared enough for takeoff. His level of jump prep and the 30 minute wait all IMO point to a planned jump about where he did. Maybe he had a few areas and visual cues further south if he missed BG/Portland.  I could see himself giving himself optionality. 

It was NOT a legit 30 minute wait, he was delayed because he couldn't get the airstairs down. You keep making this bogus claim.

Wrong,,, Cooper began putting on the back chute after accepting the range limitation from the crew...

The fact that Cooper rejected large airports for US refuelling indicates he was at least considering still being on the plane. At some point in the refuelling negotiations he put on the back chute..

 

 

 

 

[Kamkisky 13]

21 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

It was NOT a legit 30 minute wait, he was delayed because he couldn't get the airstairs down. You keep making this bogus claim.

Wrong,,, Cooper began putting on the back chute after accepting the range limitation from the crew...

The fact that Cooper rejected large airports for US refuelling indicates he was at least considering still being on the plane. At some point in the refuelling negotiations he put on the back chute..

 

 

 

 

What are all airports he rejected? SF and LA. Are their others we know he ruled out? 

[FLYJACK 773]

3 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

What are all airports he rejected? SF and LA. Are their others we know he ruled out? 

I think so,,,  it is in Rataczak's Northwest video presentation..  

Doesn't really matter.. LA and SF would have flown V-23..  San Fran is just barely W of Red Bluff and LA is actually E of Red Bluff.. they didn't have to stick on V-23. So, no reason to reject those Airports.

[Kamkisky 13]

1 minute ago, FLYJACK said:

I think so,,,  it is in Rataczak's Northwest video presentation..  

Doesn't really matter.. LA and SF would have flown V-23..  San Fran is just barely W of Red Bluff and LA is actually E of Red Bluff.. they didn't have to stick on V-23. So, no reason to reject those Airports.

Cooper never talked about V23, only locations which all had a clear direction of south. The reason I ask is because Cooper wouldn’t want anything on the coast, any coastal route is terrible for him.  This seems like a reason to reject several large airports.  
 

Fun side note: LA is east of Reno.  
 

 

[FLYJACK 773]

23 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Cooper never talked about V23, only locations which all had a clear direction of south. The reason I ask is because Cooper wouldn’t want anything on the coast, any coastal route is terrible for him.  This seems like a reason to reject several large airports.  
 

Fun side note: LA is east of Reno.  
 

 

I know he didn't mentioned v23, I mentioned it because v23 would still be taken to those  other destinations.. 

The coastal argument doesn't make sense because they could have taken the coast from Seattle and Cooper never said anything about it.

[FLYJACK 773]

and Ryan, you still have the placard messed up..

The type of placard found was assigned to 727's with the optional emergency airstair release,, 305 did not have that option.

You keep claiming the placard is seen intact in the image of 305..  that placard is not the same one that was found in the woods.. 

The hicks placard or one matching it was never on 305.

You keep claiming your photo of 305 proves the Hicks placard isn't from 305..

Shutter and I proved years ago that 305 never had that type of placard at all.. 

Your conclusion is correct but your argument is wrong.

 

Edited June 8 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 549]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That is a lie,, I said it was a theory. Stop straw-manning.

You always resort to lies Ryan.. 

You want low level speculation go back to FB..

What is the lie? 

and it’s “low level speculation” to point out that he may have wanted to jump back where he started because that’s where his transport might be??

This is your problem with everything. If it’s not your idea then it’s the most stupid insane idiotic moronic idea ever. 

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more obvious example of that than today.

You asked me why he would want to jump back where he started. I give you two extremely logical answers for why he would try to jump close to where he started. And I even gave the caveat that this requires him starting his day in Portland. You proceed to call that idiotic speculation with no proof yet you’ve been essentially writing wholly speculative fan fiction coming up with elaborate theories about where he really wanted to jump based solely on assumptions about what Cooper was actually thinking. 

Your Hahneman post yet again makes me ask another question. Why is Cooper the shyest guy around in Nov 71 and then seven months later he is making no attempt to hide himself from passengers and jibber jabbers constantly with the crew? How can you explain the difference in their personalities?

 

[olemisscub 549]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

and Ryan, you still have the placard messed up..

The type of placard found was assigned to 727's with the optional emergency airstair release,, 305 did not have that option.

You keep claiming the placard is seen intact in the image of 305..  that placard is not the same one that was found in the woods.. 

The hicks placard or one matching it was never on 305.

You keep claiming your photo of 305 proves the Hicks placard isn't from 305..

Shutter and I proved years ago that 305 never had that type of placard at all.. 

Your conclusion is correct but your argument is wrong.

 

Provide me with some proof of that and I’ll gladly give you the credit

for what it’s worth I’ve never understood why anyone cares about the placard anyway. 

Edited June 8 by olemisscub

[Kamkisky 13]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I know he didn't mentioned v23, I mentioned it because v23 would still be taken to those  other destinations.. 

The coastal argument doesn't make sense because they could have taken the coast from Seattle and Cooper never said anything about it.

I know basically nothing more about skydiving than the average person (maybe a tiny bit more since joining the vortex) but I know the coastline of California and the PNW. There is no case to be made a coastal route is beneficial for jumping. Cooper wants to jump -thus the whole parajacking. The two things are opposites, there’s no way to marry them. Imagine parachuting into Big Sur (at freakin night)? It’s laughable. Cooper has zero reason to accept a coast route. 

Edited June 8 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 773]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

What is the lie? 

and it’s “low level speculation” to point out that he may have wanted to jump back where he started because that’s where his transport might be??

This is your problem with everything. If it’s not your idea then it’s the most stupid insane idiotic moronic idea ever. 

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a more obvious example of that than today.

You asked me why he would want to jump back where he started. I give you two extremely logical answers for why he would try to jump close to where he started. And I even gave the caveat that this requires him starting his day in Portland. You proceed to call that idiotic speculation with no proof yet you’ve been essentially writing wholly speculative fan fiction coming up with elaborate theories about where he really wanted to jump based solely on assumptions about what Cooper was actually thinking. 

Your Hahneman post yet again makes me ask another question. Why is Cooper the shyest guy around in Nov 71 and then seven months later he is making no attempt to hide himself from passengers and jibber jabbers constantly with the crew? How can you explain the difference in their personalities?

 

Ryan, you lied when you said I was claiming my theory was fact...

Yet you are essentially telling everyone on this message board right now that you KNOW FOR A FACT that Cooper flew in from somewhere else and didn't drive himself to Portland or have an accomplice who dropped him off. 

The reason was to discredit me. 

I never claimed it was fact, I said it was a theory.

You always do this, you play the strawman garbage when you are challenged on something for some personal revenge.. You falsely restate my position then attack it..

It is dishonest. 

 

You were wrong about Hahneman's flight refuelling but that isn't good enough, you have to keep going,, 

My theory is based on much more than what Cooper was thinking..  there you go lying again. You are such a waste of time. I cut you slack and you go right back to your nonsense.

Good luck getting anywhere in this case...

 

Just put me on ignore.. 

 

 

Edited June 8 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 773]

30 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

I know basically nothing more about skydiving than the average person (maybe a tiny bit more since joining the vortex) but I know the coastline of California and the PNW. There is no case to be made a coastal route is beneficial for jumping. Cooper wants to jump -thus the whole parajacking. The two things are opposites, there’s no way to marry them. Imagine parachuting into Big Sur (at freakin night)? It’s laughable. Cooper has zero reason to accept a coast route. 

Who ever said it is beneficial,, the point was the crew considered flying out over the Ocean from Seattle and they could have. Cooper never said anything like.. hey don't fly out over the Ocean from Seattle. He didn't care about the ocean so why would he care about LA or SF which could have been approached by land.

The fact that he didn't care about the plane going out over the ocean from Seattle supports the later jump plan and contradicts his jump as being targeted. If they went out over the ocean from Seattle he couldn't jump.

[FLYJACK 773]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Provide me with some proof of that and I’ll gladly give you the credit

for what it’s worth I’ve never understood why anyone cares about the placard anyway. 

I am not looking for credit... I  just want the truth.

 

[Kamkisky 13]

57 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Who ever said it is beneficial,, the point was the crew considered flying out over the Ocean from Seattle and they could have. Cooper never said anything like.. hey don't fly out over the Ocean from Seattle. He didn't care about the ocean so why would he care about LA or SF which could have been approached by land.

The fact that he didn't care about the plane going out over the ocean from Seattle supports the later jump plan and contradicts his jump as being targeted. If they went out over the ocean from Seattle he couldn't jump.

I struggle with the concept of a guy literally wearing a parachute and money bag not caring about flying over ocean. I think he would have cared.  

Edited June 8 by Kamkisky

[georger 268]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

I struggle with the concept of a guy literally wearing a parachute and money bag not caring about flying over ocean. I think he would have cared.  

You certainly have a unique approach to the Cooper case. 

How did Cooper feel about onion rings ?

Edited June 8 by georger

[FLYJACK 773]

6 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

I struggle with the concept of a guy literally wearing a parachute and money bag not caring about flying over ocean. I think he would have cared.  

He didn't care about the west coast because he was going jump south of the US border. His goal was to get the plane going toward Mexico City, landing in Mexico to refuel give directions inflight.

He did nothing to prevent the crew from flying out over the ocean from Seattle which they seriously considered. That indicates he was not concerned.

My theory makes sense and reconciles a bunch of things that have been unresolved.

Hahneman flew across the Gulf of Mexico chased by military jets.

 

[Kamkisky 13]

8 hours ago, georger said:

You certainly have a unique approach to the Cooper case. 

How did Cooper feel about onion rings ?

Just my take. New eyes are sometimes helpful. A guy parajacking a jet, who has got rid of the passengers, put on the chute and strapped the money bag to himself, and is focused on getting the aft stairs lowered, likely cares if the plane is flying over water. Seems straightforward to me.

Parachuting over water seems like a bad idea, just my newbie perspective. 

As for he did nothing to stop them from flying out over the ocean…he did. He told them where to go, every option he gave/agreed to was south, the ocean is west. My theory is he planned to jump (thus the chute being on) and he planned to do so south of Seattle (not west or north or east). 
 

I’m not dismissive of the idea of Mexico. Hell…he said fly to Mexico. But, there is a difference between Cooper wanting to go to Mexico and Cooper wanting the plane to go to Mexico and the authorities to search all the way down to Mexico. I don’t think skyjackers are always sharing the full story or telling the full truth. It’s part of the occupation.

Edited June 8 by Kamkisky

[olemisscub 549]

11 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

My theory is based on much more than what Cooper was thinking

 

Much more indeed. It's mainly based on you trying to shoehorn Hahneman into Cooper. 

And Hahneman didn't need to refuel in the US. They could have easily made any number of Caribbean countries for refueling. So why is he so scared about the FBI waiting for him in Reno that it forces him to jump into unknown territory in Nov 71 but then he's totally cool with refueling in the US in May 72?