DB Cooper

[FunnyStuff 8]

2 hours ago, georger said:

Carr had this wrong. Carr assumed Coop was ready to jump when as you say, he wasnt. Tina confirmed he wasnt ready ...

I am unaware of this claim. Where did she say this? It is my understanding when Tina goes up Cooper has the chute on and bag tied up. Soon there after the light in the cabin indicates the stairs are down. When does Tina say he's not yet ready and in what capacity is he not ready?

[FLYJACK 767]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Because that’s where his transportation was, either his own car or an accomplice, if we assume that he began his day in Portland. 

That is pure speculation. There is no indication of an accomplice or waiting transportation.  

Jumping near PDX where he started makes no sense to me..  it is risky everyone knows about him, he would have to jump North of Vancouver. I know he jumped at 8:11...

[FLYJACK 767]

5 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

I didn't mean to suggest he asked for chutes from Mccord but instead point out he had awareness of them likely coming from their. Attached is one of the pilot's(I assume) testimonies from vault release 65 in which they point out the hijacker indicated awareness the chute would come from Mccord and the distance away. Seems like Cooper either #1 mapped out likely distance from a parachute from the where he anticipated getting his demand met OR #2 he had prior intimate knowledge of the area. I feel it's unlikely Cooper would've had that level of detail on a backup plan but I suppose it's possible. 

The crew was told in error they were coming from McChord.

Tina told Cooper about McChord.

But if he was military he would likely know where McChord was..

I don't see the McChord thing proving he planned it.

Edited Saturday at 03:28 AM by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 767]

3 hours ago, georger said:

Coop is definitely assessing his plan for escape with the money secured and not being apprehended. - that is his priority and feeds any decision on where and when to jump. What did he actually do after liftoff at Seattle. He immediately prepares for a jump. Whatever his psychology or whatever he thought or processed in his head, he prepares to jump asap! He gets the money tied to himself. Most importantly he begins negotiating through Tina with the pilot to slow and stabilise the plane ....to maximize his chances for a successful jump. And he jumps.  This is not theoretical. He jumped and landed within walking distance of PDX ... everything else and all theories about his thought process and options are irrelevant.

Our task is to grapple with what Cooper did, not what he might have done or his wish list!

Under the circumstances as they developed his decision to jump is wise. He got away. He proved to be untraceable!! God only knows how some of the money got to Tena Bar. The world is missing part of the story after he landed with the money apparently intact and undamaged ... so far there is no evidence to fill in that gap! Fifty years later there apparently is no further evidence to be had.

Based on his actions, Cooper wanted to place distance between himself and any ability of authorities to get to him quickly while allowing himself the freedom to travel safely. Years later the next evidence of Cooper is close to PDX on a sandbar north of PDX on the Washington side of the river. Based on that he didn't quite make it home ? 

And if Deputy Jones is correct, 'if the money is here, Cooper himself was here' ?

No, that isn't how the case moves forward.

There are legitimate issues to work out.

Maybe, I am the only that sees them..

[georger 263]

3 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

I am unaware of this claim. Where did she say this? It is my understanding when Tina goes up Cooper has the chute on and bag tied up. Soon there after the light in the cabin indicates the stairs are down. When does Tina say he's not yet ready and in what capacity is he not ready?

Go back to the timeline. From chutes delivered to, passengers depart plane, liftoff, Tina going forward saying he will jump soon he is working on a money container, Cooper negotiating with pilot to slow the plane, stair light goes on, jump 8:11-8:13 ... plane just north of the Columbia. If he had wanted or needed to bail at Seattle he could have but would have had to speed things up ... he took his time. He had the luxury of time to do whatever he wanted to do ..

Amended: what is interesting to me is the moment he puts on a chute he is encumbered. That violates tactical military protocol! He isnt physically free to defend himself, move around easily, etc. He has complained about being concerned about sky marshals on board, "no funny stuff', people approaching or getting near him, etc. The minute you put on a chute you become vulnerable. It violates tactical training. Something doesn't add up ??? Or, it is exactly what it suggests. It suggests Cooper was not a career military person, lacked military or civilian training, and even lacked common sense! He's an interesting mix of personality traits based on his life experience - - - a dangerous guy potentially if his bomb was real!  

Edited Saturday at 01:24 AM by georger

[georger 263]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

That is pure speculation. There is no indication of an accomplice or waiting transportation.  

Jumping near PDX where he started makes no sense to me..  it is risky everyone knows about him, he would have to jump North of Vancouver. I know he jumped at 8:11...

When he jumps nobody at Portland knows where he is. Portland-Vancouver is a large area! LE is spread thin and looking for him up near Lake Merwin! What he has against him is: he is a lone traveler. If he is seen with a bag that might be suspicious.Moreover he has to cross the rail lines where there are hobos and other dangerous ilk. A curious hobo is his worst case encounter ... he has to get transportation back to somewhere asap. Cooper is no longer in control and is vulnerable. There really is no place he can hide for very long. Too many people and too much activity. Somehow he vanishes while a token of the money is left behind with its discovery a miracle! ? 

It all depends on who this guy is and what his resources are.

Edited Saturday at 12:20 AM by georger

[olemisscub 532]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

That is pure speculation. There is no indication of an accomplice or waiting transportation.  

Jumping near PDX where he started makes no sense to me..  it is risky everyone knows about him, he would have to jump North of Vancouver. I know he jumped at 8:11...

of course it's speculation. Literally everything you're suggesting about him being spooked about Reno is speculation as well. None of us know what was in Cooper's mind. 

[olemisscub 532]

2 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

I am unaware of this claim. Where did she say this? It is my understanding when Tina goes up Cooper has the chute on and bag tied up. Soon there after the light in the cabin indicates the stairs are down. When does Tina say he's not yet ready and in what capacity is he not ready?

In her 302 she indicates that he was still messing around with the bag AFTER they took off. If his goal was to jump immediately one would think he'd have been totally ready to go.

 

[monk71 2]

21 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Shutter's website looks to be gone..

Most pages are still down... specifically the message boards. Pages like the Vault and About Us still work. Some pages get a 503 error, but most are just blank.

[FLYJACK 767]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

of course it's speculation. Literally everything you're suggesting about him being spooked about Reno is speculation as well. None of us know what was in Cooper's mind. 

There is speculation and there is speculation..  what you said has zero to back it up.

What I am saying is not proven but has some support.

Not the same.

[FLYJACK 767]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

In her 302 she indicates that he was still messing around with the bag AFTER they took off. If his goal was to jump immediately one would think he'd have been totally ready to go.

 

Not necessarily. 

[FLYJACK 767]

2 hours ago, georger said:

When he jumps nobody at Portland knows where he is. Portland-Vancouver is a large area! LE is spread thin and looking for him up near Lake Merwin! What he has against him is: he is a lone traveler. If he is seen with a bag that might be suspicious.Moreover he has to cross the rail lines where there are hobos and other dangerous ilk. A curious hobo is his worst case encounter ... he has to get transportation back to somewhere asap. Cooper is no longer in control and is vulnerable. There really is no place he can hide for very long. Too many people and too much activity. Somehow he vanishes while a token of the money is left behind with its discovery a miracle! ? 

It all depends on who this guy is and what his resources are.

Still makes no sense for Cooper to plan to jump near PDX..

[FLYJACK 767]

6 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

If Cooper wanted to jump later, where? Unless that intended spot is in California -ie south of Oregon- the Reno switch from Mexico should have made no difference. 
 

Here’s my take:

Cooper picked 305 because he knew the area from the air and ground. The PNW is likely not where he lived and the typical grey weather helps this type of crime, jumping into a clear night makes him more visible. He also selected 305 because it was a short flight, this makes times and distances more manageable. 
 

I strongly suspect he flew 305 in a dry run. I also suspect he flew the area at night prior to the skyjacking, maybe in a commercial plane or maybe as a pilot of a small plane. 
 

There are three other main factors that lead me to believe he wanted to jump north of Portland:

1) The pilot Ryan talked to that has been flying in the area since before 71. That pilot said the first city lights that were visible when going south were Battle Ground. North of BG is dark forest. And as one got to BG the lights of the VC/Port metro appear. 
 

2) A poster on Reddit just did simulations on the flight and I-5 can be a guide post from Centralia south. The poster also said Portland and BG are EASIER to spot at night because of the lights and during the day the relatively flat terrain allows them to kinda sneak up on you. 
 

3) Cooper waited through the darkness for 30 minutes. He begins to act -oscillations- right as the plane reaches BG. He jumps between BG and the metro, into a great place for a night jump to happen. 
 

Maybe he just got super lucky. But his actions seem to tell a different story. He used the I-5, BG and metro lights to guide him. It wouldn’t have taken more than a dry run or two to figure this plan out and it worked perfectly. Why? Because it is simple and with controlled variables. 
 

I think Cooper had experience flying and landing at night and that’s part of why he could spot Tacoma. this wasn’t his first time navigating from the sky.  He was comfortable with that skill.
 

McNally said when he jumped he could look forward from the stairs. If you look at the flight path, just south of BG the plane is perfectly aligned to see the metro lights off his left shoulder and BG lights off the tail of the plane. 
 

As for Mexico and V23, maybe there was a mixup in the flying dirty the whole way or not. I lean towards not. It was the pilots who first suggest taking off with the stairs down. Cooper didn’t fight them either way. Why? Because he didn’t really care. He just wants two things…go south and in the configuration he requested when he is ready to jump.

I think Cooper preferred Reno because it’s smaller, if something happened and he couldn’t jump (remember he’s on the ground with the stairs closed while negotiating) he wanted to give himself the best odds. So he wanted the most podunk places. He said Mexico to create the longest search area, obviously not knowing about the pressure bump. He had likely looked up the range of the 727. 

As for V23, maybe he knew or not  I don’t think it matters. There are only 4 main directions and Cooper was clear, south. That’s it. That's the flight path he wants, it takes him directly where he plans to go  

I also believe he picked the day before Thanksgiving because it would slow down law enforcement…and it did. 

In short:

-skyjack over terrain you know, and keep it simple (one direction and one metro away)

-do it at night and right before a holiday

-use the major visual clues for orientation 

 

 

 

Way too much unsupported speculation,,, 

1. Irrelevant, Cooper did not jump at BG.

2. Irrelevant, Cooper did not jump at BG.

3. His jump was delayed due to trouble with the airstairs, did I mention Cooper did not jump at BG.

 

It isn't entirely clear if the pilots or Cooper first suggested lowering airstairs on take off but Cooper did fight the pilots to have the airstairs open because Reno was in play. The pilots wanted to get Tina off the plane. He rejected refuelling at large US airports,, why if he was jumping in the PNW.. because at that time he was still thinking he would on the plane. If he was thinking he was still going to be on the plane for Reno then his PNW jump was not his planned jump, it was ad hoc.

Cooper did not know where the plane would be, it had roughly a 120 mile wide range it could have been from the Ocean to the mountains heading South. NO WAY he knew where it would be, had transportation waiting or an accomplice. My theory is that he wanted to get out of the US and then give directions and lower the airstairs to jump. 

 

[Kamkisky 3]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Way too much unsupported speculation,,, 

1. Irrelevant, Cooper did not jump at BG.

2. Irrelevant, Cooper did not jump at BG.

3. His jump was delayed due to trouble with the airstairs, did I mention Cooper did not jump at BG.

 

It isn't entirely clear if the pilots or Cooper first suggested lowering airstairs on take off but Cooper did fight the pilots to have the airstairs open because Reno was in play. The pilots wanted to get Tina off the plane. He rejected refuelling at large US airports,, why if he was jumping in the PNW.. because at that time he was still thinking he would on the plane. If he was thinking he was still going to be on the plane for Reno then his PNW jump was not his planned jump, it was ad hoc.

Cooper did not know where the plane would be, it had roughly a 120 mile wide range it could have been from the Ocean to the mountains heading South. NO WAY he knew where it would be, had transportation waiting or an accomplice. My theory is that he wanted to get out of the US and then give directions and lower the airstairs to jump. 

 

My understanding is you are an 8:11 jump person vs an 8:13 type. Is that correct? 
 

Either way works for my theory. As soon as he sees BG lights it’s go time. If he saw BG 90 seconds sooner or later has no impact on the overall plan and using the lights of BG. It’s just minutiae. 
 

The pilot Ryan talked to was on the FBIs radar right after the jump. They searched his place and gave his wife a hard time. He has been flying this area for over 50 years. I take his input very seriously. He says it’s darkness regarding city lights till BG. BG just happens to be right at the 8:11-8:13 window. 

The flight simulator we can argue with but it is another data point worth considering.

At what point did Cooper get the stairs down? Isn’t it around 8:05 when he answers the interphone and says hi to Tina and that everything is now good? That’s the set up. He was preparing after 20 minutes of waiting. It was just before go time. This is part of why having a short flight is beneficial. Cooper can track his location better. 
 

I disagree about Reno. I don’t think Cooper had any intention of being on the plane then. But while he is negotiating he is sitting on the runway in Seattle with the aft stairs closed. He wanted Mexico, but he’ll take anything south. Why not pick podunk over major metro if you’re Cooper? Give yourself another option if everything fails. The fact he didn’t argue much about the stairs being up or down or which airport to refuel at indicates to me he only tangential cared. LA? No thanks. Huge…tons of cops. Reno, sure. Less cops. Whatever. It’s south and that’s the point. His plan was to be gone by Portland. He’s just giving himself an option if his plan fails, he is nonchalant relatively speaking because it’s the backup option. 
 

If you are right and Cooper just wanted to get out of the US -he knew roughly the flight distance of a 727, he didn’t ask to go to Brazil- then why ask for the dirty configuration at all in Seattle? Wouldn’t the best option be to tell them to fly as fast as possible to Mexico and not ask for drag flaps/10k ft/landing gear down? And if that was a mistake, he wanted it later, why wouldn’t he bitch about the stops? He knew the plane under normal conditions could make it to Mexico. If that’s his destination why not just get there ASAP? 
 

IMO Cooper wanted south over Portland. He gave instructions that would take him south and have the plane in a configuration to jump. He has only two needs, he achieved both. It worked. 
 

As for the 120 mile wide path…Cooper set conditions that wedge them in on the east with the mountains. If the plane had gone west to the coast he would have told them to go back and try again. There is nothing on the coast that works for Cooper, it’s all terrible for him. He would not want the coast and wouldn’t put up with it. Why would he? It makes no sense for a guy looking to jump. Of all three other directions West is the worst for jumping. 
 

My theory is he kept it simple. Select a short flight. Go from one metro to the next, without other metros to confuse you. Learn the key indicators (BG/I-5 lights). Know the terrain from the air and ground. Jump before the metro lights. Simple. Can’t mess it up. Hell, any one of us could pick the spot between BG and Portland from the air at night knowing what we do now. We can tell the distance/time/lights, so could he. That’s all he needed. 
 

As for a vehicle or accomplice…not needed. Any good car thief can get away regardless of where he lands. Cooper only needed good terrain to land in. Once he is on the ground he is almost certainly armed and dangerous and will take the first viable vehicle and flee. Cooper thinks they are looking from Seattle to Reno, the night before Thanksgiving. He has time to steal a vehicle and make 100 miles before anyone notices. 

Edited Saturday at 04:55 AM by Kamkisky

[FunnyStuff 8]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Not necessarily. 

Aft stair light is on at 7:40 and jump is 8:13 at the absolute earliest. What does he do for 33 minutes if he's not waiting for a targeted LZ?

[CooperNWO305 158]

5 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

Aft stair light is on at 7:40 and jump is 8:13 at the absolute earliest. What does he do for 33 minutes if he's not waiting for a targeted LZ?

My theory. And everyone has theories. So take it with a grain of salt. I think he’s getting up the courage to jump and also waiting for some sign of civilization that is not the wilderness. 

[FLYJACK 767]

7 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

Aft stair light is on at 7:40 and jump is 8:13 at the absolute earliest. What does he do for 33 minutes if he's not waiting for a targeted LZ?

Nope, he jumps at 8:11 but he was struggling to get the airstairs down, it is in the files.

[FunnyStuff 8]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Nope, he jumps at 8:11 but he was struggling to get the airstairs down, it is in the files.

He gets the stairs open when the light comes on at 7:40. The 7:42 communication from him about trouble getting the stairs down is most likely him realizing in the pressure from the plane's drag is holding the stairs up until his weight is displaced on them, I can't imagine that took him 33 minutes to figure out.  He communicates "everything OK" to the cockpit sometimes before 8:05 so he had the stairs figured out by that point.

 

Also, he doesn't jump at 8:11, that's the pilots communicating that there are oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator. Has to have jumped some time after 8:11 and before 8:19 but as far as I know there's no way to know for sure. As I understand it comms were out with 305 during the actually reporting of the physical pressure bump

[FLYJACK 767]

9 hours ago, Kamkisky said:

My understanding is you are an 8:11 jump person vs an 8:13 type. Is that correct? 
 

Either way works for my theory. As soon as he sees BG lights it’s go time. If he saw BG 90 seconds sooner or later has no impact on the overall plan and using the lights of BG. It’s just minutiae. 
 

The pilot Ryan talked to was on the FBIs radar right after the jump. They searched his place and gave his wife a hard time. He has been flying this area for over 50 years. I take his input very seriously. He says it’s darkness regarding city lights till BG. BG just happens to be right at the 8:11-8:13 window. 

The flight simulator we can argue with but it is another data point worth considering.

At what point did Cooper get the stairs down? Isn’t it around 8:05 when he answers the interphone and says hi to Tina and that everything is now good? That’s the set up. He was preparing after 20 minutes of waiting. It was just before go time. This is part of why having a short flight is beneficial. Cooper can track his location better. 
 

I disagree about Reno. I don’t think Cooper had any intention of being on the plane then. But while he is negotiating he is sitting on the runway in Seattle with the aft stairs closed. He wanted Mexico, but he’ll take anything south. Why not pick podunk over major metro if you’re Cooper? Give yourself another option if everything fails. The fact he didn’t argue much about the stairs being up or down or which airport to refuel at indicates to me he only tangential cared. LA? No thanks. Huge…tons of cops. Reno, sure. Less cops. Whatever. It’s south and that’s the point. His plan was to be gone by Portland. He’s just giving himself an option if his plan fails, he is nonchalant relatively speaking because it’s the backup option. 
 

If you are right and Cooper just wanted to get out of the US -he knew roughly the flight distance of a 727, he didn’t ask to go to Brazil- then why ask for the dirty configuration at all in Seattle? Wouldn’t the best option be to tell them to fly as fast as possible to Mexico and not ask for drag flaps/10k ft/landing gear down? And if that was a mistake, he wanted it later, why wouldn’t he bitch about the stops? He knew the plane under normal conditions could make it to Mexico. If that’s his destination why not just get there ASAP? 
 

IMO Cooper wanted south over Portland. He gave instructions that would take him south and have the plane in a configuration to jump. He has only two needs, he achieved both. It worked. 
 

As for the 120 mile wide path…Cooper set conditions that wedge them in on the east with the mountains. If the plane had gone west to the coast he would have told them to go back and try again. There is nothing on the coast that works for Cooper, it’s all terrible for him. He would not want the coast and wouldn’t put up with it. Why would he? It makes no sense for a guy looking to jump. Of all three other directions West is the worst for jumping. 
 

My theory is he kept it simple. Select a short flight. Go from one metro to the next, without other metros to confuse you. Learn the key indicators (BG/I-5 lights). Know the terrain from the air and ground. Jump before the metro lights. Simple. Can’t mess it up. Hell, any one of us could pick the spot between BG and Portland from the air at night knowing what we do now. We can tell the distance/time/lights, so could he. That’s all he needed. 
 

As for a vehicle or accomplice…not needed. Any good car thief can get away regardless of where he lands. Cooper only needed good terrain to land in. Once he is on the ground he is almost certainly armed and dangerous and will take the first viable vehicle and flee. Cooper thinks they are looking from Seattle to Reno, the night before Thanksgiving. He has time to steal a vehicle and make 100 miles before anyone notices. 

Cooper jumped at 8:11..  BG has nothing to do with anything.

I was 8:11-8:15 until recently but now I can prove the FBI and Spangler were right and it was 8:11. That is 8:11 on the FBI map not Cunningham's bogus time alteration. Forget about BG.

The airstair light is not the stairs open and down.. the airstair light only means the lever was moved form its detent and they are not locked. Cooper moved the lever but the airstairs didn't drop. He asked the pilots to slow down. It is unclear wether he didn't operate the lever correctly or the speed of the plane kept the stairs form falling, maybe both.

The airstairs can be open and not down. 

Like I said my theory is that his demands were misunderstood by the crew going through Tina, initially he did not intend for the plane to fly dirty from takeoff but when the airstairs were lowered inflight. He would have given directions and order the airstairs down later while inflight probable outside the US. Remember, Cooper rejected large US airports for refuelling, that can only mean he was still thinking he would be on the plane.

Cooper didn't fight the fuel stop... he also didn't fight the missing D Rings or the lack of a knapsack.. When Reno was in play he just decided to jump early.

Why is selecting a short flight meaninglful,, he could have hijacked a long flight and have it land anywhere including short.

Cooper had zero input on the plane's path, none. That plane could have been anywhere on roughly a 130 mile horizontal line heading south. There is no way he would know were it would be when he was jumping, he did not plan that spot. This is not debatable, Cooper did not know/plan his jump spot. 

Cooper wanted out before Reno and as soon as he could he just jumped. No targeted LZ.

Since the jump was ad hoc, no accomplice or transportation waiting,,, 

 

[FLYJACK 767]

13 minutes ago, FunnyStuff said:

He gets the stairs open when the light comes on at 7:40. The 7:42 communication from him about trouble getting the stairs down is most likely him realizing in the pressure from the plane's drag is holding the stairs up until his weight is displaced on them, I can't imagine that took him 33 minutes to figure out.  He communicates "everything OK" to the cockpit sometimes before 8:05 so he had the stairs figured out by that point.

 

Also, he doesn't jump at 8:11, that's the pilots communicating that there are oscillations in the cabin rate of climb indicator. Has to have jumped some time after 8:11 and before 8:19 but as far as I know there's no way to know for sure. As I understand it comms were out with 305 during the actually reporting of the physical pressure bump

No, it is 8:11,,, I know what I am talking about,, the Cooper guys on FB screwed this all up. But that isn't really your point..

To open the airstairs you need to push the lever forward press a button on top and hold it there. Once the lever is moved from the locked position detent the light comes on but that doesn't mean the airstairs are "open"..

At 7:40 he moves the lever from the detent but does not open the airstairs. 

IMO, it wasn't really the air pressure holding the airstairs up but rather Cooper had failed to operate the lever correctly. The plane wasn't moving that fast,, and other hijackers got out at higher speeds.

By 8:05 he figured it out.

There was no intentionally specific jump timing.

 

Edited Saturday at 03:04 PM by FLYJACK

[FunnyStuff 8]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, it is 8:11,,, I know what I am talking about,, the Cooper guys on FB screwed this all up. But that isn't really your point..

To open the airstairs you need to push the lever forward press a button on top and hold it there. Once the lever is moved from the locked position detent the light comes on but that doesn't mean the airstairs are "open"..

At 7:40 he moves the lever but does not open the airstairs. 

IMO, it wasn't really the air pressure holding the airstairs up but Cooper had failed to operate the lever correctly. The plane wasn't moving that fast,, and other hijackers got out at higher speeds.

 

I'm not intimately familiar with the Martin McNally hijacking so I don't know what speeds he was flying at. That said, he did say after the fact that the stairs were compressed until he put his body weight out on them.

Isn't the sled test footage out now? What do the stairs look like there?

[FLYJACK 767]

11 minutes ago, FunnyStuff said:

I'm not intimately familiar with the Martin McNally hijacking so I don't know what speeds he was flying at. That said, he did say after the fact that the stairs were compressed until he put his body weight out on them.

Isn't the sled test footage out now? What do the stairs look like there?

McNally was going much faster.

So, it gets complicated because 727 the airstairs can gravity drop or hydraulic assist depending on how you operate the lever.

We just don't know exactly how Cooper operated the lever but the error Cooper people make is assuming the light means the airstais are open.. the light only indicates the lever has been moved from its detent and is NOT locked. Then there is a button on top and you push and hold the lever forward. If Cooper didn't press the button or hold it forward but just moved the lever the light would go on but the airstairs would not open.

The sled test is not really helpful because they knew how to open the airstairs. If operated correctly in gravity drop it opens 1-3 feet then weight on them pushes it open further..

Problem is we don't know exactly what Cooper did with the lever. It appears from the evidence that he did not operate it correctly until close to 8:05.

[FLYJACK 767]

Ryan, you have the tie clip on the wrong side.

[Kamkisky 3]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Cooper jumped at 8:11..  BG has nothing to do with anything.

I was 8:11-8:15 until recently but now I can prove the FBI and Spangler were right and it was 8:11. That is 8:11 on the FBI map not Cunningham's bogus time alteration. Forget about BG.

The airstair light is not the stairs open and down.. the airstair light only means the lever was moved form its detent and they are not locked. Cooper moved the lever but the airstairs didn't drop. He asked the pilots to slow down. It is unclear wether he didn't operate the lever correctly or the speed of the plane kept the stairs form falling, maybe both.

The airstairs can be open and not down. 

Like I said my theory is that his demands were misunderstood by the crew going through Tina, initially he did not intend for the plane to fly dirty from takeoff but when the airstairs were lowered inflight. He would have given directions and order the airstairs down later while inflight probable outside the US. Remember, Cooper rejected large US airports for refuelling, that can only mean he was still thinking he would be on the plane.

Cooper didn't fight the fuel stop... he also didn't fight the missing D Rings or the lack of a knapsack.. When Reno was in play he just decided to jump early.

Why is selecting a short flight meaninglful,, he could have hijacked a long flight and have it land anywhere including short.

Cooper had zero input on the plane's path, none. That plane could have been anywhere on roughly a 130 mile horizontal line heading south. There is no way he would know were it would be when he was jumping, he did not plan that spot. This is not debatable, Cooper did not know/plan his jump spot. 

Cooper wanted out before Reno and as soon as he could he just jumped. No targeted LZ.

Since the jump was ad hoc, no accomplice or transportation waiting,,, 

 

So he wants to go to Mexico, that’s his real plan? He knows the plane can fly that far, but there’s a miscommunication through Tina and he is told they have to make several stops because of the configuration. Cooper just accepts this, thereby eliminating his initial plan. He just gives up and his plan is defunct for a reason he could have stopped by simply saying “No. Fly at a normal configuration and as fast as possible straight to Mexico, no funny stuff.” I don’t get it. If he wants Mexico, he could get Mexico. Also, if he wanted Mexico why skyjack in PNW? 

Rejecting large airports *means* he thought he’d still be on the plane is a logical jump. Once they say they’d have to stop to refuel Cooper has to either say no, go straight to Mexico OR negotiate refuel stops. It’s like giving the name to the ticket agent, it’s merely a prerequisite. He has to do it, but he doesn’t care and his name isn’t Dan Cooper. Cooper said no to big and yes to small airports, ok. He also didn’t pick the coastal option, we could surmise he didn’t want to be on the coast too. 

Once Cooper has the loot on the runway in Seattle he only needs three things from other people…the plane to go south, the configuration to be jumpable and for the stairs to be lowered. 

I don’t see any counter argument to Cooper wanting to go south. Can anyone argue he wanted to go north? East? West? He clearly wanted to go south. What is directly south of Seattle? Portland, where he jumps. 

I’m not sure where you are getting the 130 miles wide part from. Mt St Helens is well less than 100 miles from the coast and Portland is about 50 miles. He wedges them in by saying 10k ft. They have to go back over the Portland area, which is his goal. 

Maybe there were miscommunications on the configuration but what we know for sure is Cooper choose to fly dirty with stops over flying normal and straight to Mexico. Why is he willing to make such a massive adjustment to his Mexico plan? I’d proffer it’s because he doesn’t care…he is exiting at Portland. He only needs south, the rest is just to stretch out the search area and Reno works just like Mexico  

He keeps Tina to show him the lever. He then tests it out early to make sure he can work it. He waits, he knows where he is. This is part of the advantage a short flight from A to B and back A…with no other metros. As the time starts getting closer to BG he fully descends the stairs by 8:05. He answers the phone, it’s all good. He sees BG lights, game time. He’d had the lights of I-5 as a guide for awhile too. 

You write: “Cooper wanted out before Reno and as soon as he could he just jumped. No targeted LZ.“

So he just got lucky he didn’t jump into wilderness or downtown Portland or Redding? Basically, how does he decide where to jump before Reno if he wasn’t planning on it? He managed to jump into a great spot…

[FLYJACK 767]

8 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

So he wants to go to Mexico, that’s his real plan? He knows the plane can fly that far, but there’s a miscommunication through Tina and he is told they have to make several stops because of the configuration. Cooper just accepts this, thereby eliminating his initial plan. He just gives up and his plan is defunct for a reason he could have stopped by simply saying “No. Fly at a normal configuration and as fast as possible straight to Mexico, no funny stuff.” I don’t get it. If he wants Mexico, he could get Mexico. Also, if he wanted Mexico why skyjack in PNW? 

Rejecting large airports *means* he thought he’d still be on the plane is a logical jump. Once they say they’d have to stop to refuel Cooper has to either say no, go straight to Mexico OR negotiate refuel stops. It’s like giving the name to the ticket agent, it’s merely a prerequisite. He has to do it, but he doesn’t care and his name isn’t Dan Cooper. Cooper said no to big and yes to small airports, ok. He also didn’t pick the coastal option, we could surmise he didn’t want to be on the coast too. 

Once Cooper has the loot on the runway in Seattle he only needs three things from other people…the plane to go south, the configuration to be jumpable and for the stairs to be lowered. 

I don’t see any counter argument to Cooper wanting to go south. Can anyone argue he wanted to go north? East? West? He clearly wanted to go south. What is directly south of Seattle? Portland, where he jumps. 

I’m not sure where you are getting the 130 miles wide part from. Mt St Helens is well less than 100 miles from the coast and Portland is about 50 miles. He wedges them in by saying 10k ft. They have to go back over the Portland area, which is his goal. 

Maybe there were miscommunications on the configuration but what we know for sure is Cooper choose to fly dirty with stops over flying normal and straight to Mexico. Why is he willing to make such a massive adjustment to his Mexico plan? I’d proffer it’s because he doesn’t care…he is exiting at Portland. He only needs south, the rest is just to stretch out the search area and Reno works just like Mexico  

He keeps Tina to show him the lever. He then tests it out early to make sure he can work it. He waits, he knows where he is. This is part of the advantage a short flight from A to B and back A…with no other metros. As the time starts getting closer to BG he fully descends the stairs by 8:05. He answers the phone, it’s all good. He sees BG lights, game time. He’d had the lights of I-5 as a guide for awhile too. 

You write: “Cooper wanted out before Reno and as soon as he could he just jumped. No targeted LZ.“

So he just got lucky he didn’t jump into wilderness or downtown Portland or Redding? Basically, how does he decide where to jump before Reno if he wasn’t planning on it? He managed to jump into a great spot…

From Cooper's perspective he wouldn't know the crew misunderstood his demand. Like "telephone" comms go to Tina then to the crew..  one word can change all meaning.

Why skyjack PNW.. because that was not his first target. 

He stated Mexico City was his target destination (could refuel in Mexico) so that does not support the coastal route.

He rejected large airports.. why, if he was jumping in the PNW..

Forget BG,, it is not relevant at all.

Cooper could see lights... he jumped at 8:11 about 20 miles North of Portland.

The other hijackers gave directions, Cooper did not.. because his initial plan was to give those directions in the air. You don't give them on the ground and give away tour intentions.

 

From my notes...

Cooper’s initial demand was airstair's lowered inflight, FACT,,  he changed it later during negotiations with the crew and Reno was in play. FACT

During negotiations Cooper rejected large airports for US refuelling but accepted the smaller Reno FACT.. why, likely because he thought he was still going to be on the plane..  but he then decided to jump early. Otherwise, he wouldn’t care what size airport they used to refuel.

Cooper believed the plane could reach Mexico when he made his initial Mexico demand. This is a logical inference based on his aviation knowledge. It makes no sense to make a demand that was impossible and would be rejected. Ruse or not.

Cooper’s initial demand was given to Tina then relayed by her to the crew.

Cooper put on his chute after US fuelling stop negotiations.

Cooper’s initial demand (airstair's lowered inflight) suggests the gear down flaps down configuration when he ordered the airstair's lowered inflight not from takeoff. 

Cooper never intended to jump near Portland, when Reno was in play he wanted to jump ASAP but was delayed having trouble with the stairs.

Cooper gave no flightpath instructions. He did not know where the plane would be.

Cooper would have given directions later in the air. He did not jump where he had planned.

Cooper qualified the money as both “US” and “American”…   suggesting a non US domestic connection. 

Cooper was described as Latin.. features and characteristics. 

Cooper was not dressed for a wet/cold PNW jump.

Cooper could have flown anywhere and jumped anywhere and he ends up jumping where the hijacking started..  unlikely this is planned. It is ad hoc.