DB Cooper

[Kamkisky 5]

This isn’t my experience. A daily hardcore -pack or more- smoker will always have a rolling supply of smokes and lights. It’s not always a neatly paired one for one, it’s more like a par system used at a restaurants. They never run out. The idea of running out is anathema. Running out is for casual smokers or if they are flat broke…at which point they’ll be bumming cigs from others.

Cooper prepared for his crime. Having cigs and lights would rank up there with having a pistol or goggles. Cooper wouldn’t have known how long it would take till he next could grab smokes, he would have arrived at PDX stocked up. His using up one match book off beat with his cigarette pack being used up shows he is a more regular smoker and his ability to pull out another match book and keep on puffing shows he was likely a regular smoker. If his pack of smokes ran out, he likely would have opened another one. 

Edited June 5 by Kamkisky

[FunnyStuff 8]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

You missed the point.. people typically pick up matchbooks when they buy cigarettes.

The first matchbook ran out before the cigarette pack. So, it was an "old" book. not grabbed with the pack of Raleigh's. 

If the Sky Chefs book was not supplied by Tina then it was a new book supplied by Cooper and he likely picked it up when he last bought cigarettes.

So, it is most likely the Sky Chef matchbook (if not supplied by Tina) was grabbed when Cooper bought the Raleigh's..

And Sky Chefs were available in Airport lounges, hotels and on many airlines flights as well Cigarettes. 

If Tina didn't supply that Sky Chefs book and Cooper didn't buy the Raleigh's at the Portland airport then it indicates he probably flew into Portland. 

 

If we're asserting that there's a 1 to 1 quantity among cigarettes in a pack and in matches in a matchbook then I don't see how we can assume the matchbook was purchased with the pack of ciagrettes.  It actually reveals the opposite, the user having an uneven supply of matches to ciagrettes suggests he has a history of NOT acquiring the matches and cigarettes simultaneously.

The Skychef matches would have likely been available in PDX given that there was Skychef property there.  An equally likely scenario is that he was partially through the "higher learning" matchbook when he purchased the Raleigh cigarettes, didn't bother to purchase additional matches due to possible ownership of more matches and/or a lighter, and he picked up the Skychef matchbook in PDX while grabbing a bit to eat or in passing.

I don't think we can forge any solid assumptions based on any of the interactions and furthermore I don't think there's any relevance in it.  I think we can likely assume he was not from the area regardless of the matchbook acquisition point simply because that would make the most sense.  I can't imagine anyone planning this thing would have the audacity to do so close to home where they are more likely to be noticed and/or potentially inconvenience/harm people they knew and carried about.  I truly believe it's most likely he traveled to PDX from some distance that day but I don't think the matchbooks tell us that.

[FLYJACK 768]

4 minutes ago, FunnyStuff said:

If we're asserting that there's a 1 to 1 quantity among cigarettes in a pack and in matches in a matchbook then I don't see how we can assume the matchbook was purchased with the pack of ciagrettes.  It actually reveals the opposite, the user having an uneven supply of matches to ciagrettes suggests he has a history of NOT acquiring the matches and cigarettes simultaneously.

The Skychef matches would have likely been available in PDX given that there was Skychef property there.  An equally likely scenario is that he was partially through the "higher learning" matchbook when he purchased the Raleigh cigarettes, didn't bother to purchase additional matches due to possible ownership of more matches and/or a lighter, and he picked up the Skychef matchbook in PDX while grabbing a bit to eat or in passing.

I don't think we can forge any solid assumptions based on any of the interactions and furthermore I don't think there's any relevance in it.  I think we can likely assume he was not from the area regardless of the matchbook acquisition point simply because that would make the most sense.  I can't imagine anyone planning this thing would have the audacity to do so close to home where they are more likely to be noticed and/or potentially inconvenience/harm people they knew and carried about.  I truly believe it's most likely he traveled to PDX from some distance that day but I don't think the matchbooks tell us that.

It is typical that matches are grabbed with a new pack of cigarettes..

If the ICS matches ran out early they were "old"... not purchased with the cigarettes.

The Sky Chefs might have been the ones Tina grabbed, not really clear and Cooper may have bought both matches and cigs at the airport though the FBI checked that.

If Cooper did not get the matches from Tina or the Portland airport, it suggests he flew into Portland Airport. It doesn't prove it but it that would be the most likely scenario. 

Both matches were available at airports and flights. UAL ran 727's into Portland.

Speculation,, Cooper got the Raleigh's and Sky Chefs on earlier at an airport or UAL Boeing 727 flight into Portland but aborted the hijacking for some reason.. Tried flight 305.

This is my #1 theory for Cooper getting to PDX. 

The matchbook doesn't prove it but it supports it.

 

 

[FLYJACK 768]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

This isn’t my experience. A daily hardcore -pack or more- smoker will always have a rolling supply of smokes and lights. It’s not always a neatly paired one for one, it’s more like a par system used at a restaurants. They never run out. The idea of running out is anathema. Running out is for casual smokers or if they are flat broke…at which point they’ll be bumming cigs from others.

Cooper prepared for his crime. Having cigs and lights would rank up there with having a pistol or goggles. Cooper wouldn’t have known how long it would take till he next could grab smokes, he would have arrived at PDX stocked up. His using up one match book off beat with his cigarette pack being used up shows he is a more regular smoker and his ability to pull out another match book and keep on puffing shows he was likely a regular smoker. If his pack of smokes ran out, he likely would have opened another one. 

I kind of agree Cooper would likely have arrived at PDX with smokes and matches... though not certain it is less likely he bought them at PDX.

It would have been interesting if Tina said how full the cigarette pack was..

[georger 264]

5 hours ago, FunnyStuff said:

If we're asserting that there's a 1 to 1 quantity among cigarettes in a pack and in matches in a matchbook then I don't see how we can assume the matchbook was purchased with the pack of ciagrettes.  It actually reveals the opposite, the user having an uneven supply of matches to ciagrettes suggests he has a history of NOT acquiring the matches and cigarettes simultaneously.

The Skychef matches would have likely been available in PDX given that there was Skychef property there.  An equally likely scenario is that he was partially through the "higher learning" matchbook when he purchased the Raleigh cigarettes, didn't bother to purchase additional matches due to possible ownership of more matches and/or a lighter, and he picked up the Skychef matchbook in PDX while grabbing a bit to eat or in passing.

I don't think we can forge any solid assumptions based on any of the interactions and furthermore I don't think there's any relevance in it.  I think we can likely assume he was not from the area regardless of the matchbook acquisition point simply because that would make the most sense.  I can't imagine anyone planning this thing would have the audacity to do so close to home where they are more likely to be noticed and/or potentially inconvenience/harm people they knew and carried about.  I truly believe it's most likely he traveled to PDX from some distance that day but I don't think the matchbooks tell us that.

A smoker needs backup cigs and matches or a plan for securing those within a reasonable time frame if he knows he will run out. So how many backup packs and matches did he have? It doesnt sound like he plans on being without a  source for his needs whatever he plans to do after landing? Smoking constrains his planning and escape.

Edited June 6 by georger

[FLYJACK 768]

On Cooper's drink(s)... Bourbon and 7up

Tosaw said two drinks.. 

He was charged $18,, and drinks were $1

Darren actually figured this out,, 

It was one glass/cup with two ounces/drinks.. 

 

 

[FLYJACK 768]

31 minutes ago, georger said:

A smoker needs backup cigs and matches or a plan for securing those within a reasonable time frame if he knows he will run out. So how many backup packs and matches did he have? It doesnt sound like he plans on being without a  source for his needs whatever he plans to do after landing? Smoking constrains his planning and escape.

yup, but I don't believe he planned a PNW jump...  it was due to Reno being in play.

[FLYJACK 768]

Shutter's website looks to be gone..

[Robert99 55]

5 hours ago, georger said:

A smoker needs backup cigs and matches or a plan for securing those within a reasonable time frame if he knows he will run out. So how many backup packs and matches did he have? It doesnt sound like he plans on being without a  source for his needs whatever he plans to do after landing? Smoking constrains his planning and escape.

I don't remember any charges for the Skychef or ICS small book of matches.  Specifically, the ICS booklet was an advertising gimmick intended to get people to inquire about the ICS courses.

[FunnyStuff 8]

15 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

It is typical that matches are grabbed with a new pack of cigarettes..

If the ICS matches ran out early they were "old"... not purchased with the cigarettes.

The Sky Chefs might have been the ones Tina grabbed, not really clear and Cooper may have bought both matches and cigs at the airport though the FBI checked that.

If Cooper did not get the matches from Tina or the Portland airport, it suggests he flew into Portland Airport. It doesn't prove it but it that would be the most likely scenario. 

Both matches were available at airports and flights. UAL ran 727's into Portland.

Speculation,, Cooper got the Raleigh's and Sky Chefs on earlier at an airport or UAL Boeing 727 flight into Portland but aborted the hijacking for some reason.. Tried flight 305.

This is my #1 theory for Cooper getting to PDX. 

The matchbook doesn't prove it but it supports it.

 

 

I'd like to hear which indicators you're using to theorize Cooper had 305 as a fallback outcome. I personally feel there's some key indicators he had alot of plans locked in place for 305 specifically but I suppose he could have had a fully fleshed out plan for his primary choice you're assuming AND 305 incase conditions like too crowded of a plane were an issue in the primary choice.

Some reasons I think he most likely wanted 305 specifically:

#1 picked a flight that ended with nightfall but provided possibility of a jump relatively early in the night.  I think it's most likely he wanted to jump at night time to reduce ground traffic and air visibility upon jumping and I don't think he wanted to land at 1 in the morning or anything crazy like that and have to escape dog ass tired.  In your scenario we'd have to assume he wanted to jump mid to late afternoon at the earliest.

#2 he curiously was fully prepared to jump but waited 30+ minutes to jump which I believe indicates he had an intended landing spot along V23.  I'm not sure if you've picked out a specific flight but I assume your primary flight would not require a V23 route.

#3 there was limited airlines that published ahead of time that the plane was a 727 (or DC9) in its marketing materials.  I think there's a good chance Cooper picked NWA and 305 (in part) was because he had a pamphlet that explicitly told him 305 was going to be a 727 and he could build a full plane around the flight with certainty he'd have ventral airstairs.  Was this level of detail disclosed ahead of time in UAL marketing materials?

#4 he references Mcchord and give a fair guestimate of the distance which potentially indicates planning specifically for parachute delivery to Seattle

[FLYJACK 768]

1 hour ago, FunnyStuff said:

I'd like to hear which indicators you're using to theorize Cooper had 305 as a fallback outcome. I personally feel there's some key indicators he had alot of plans locked in place for 305 specifically but I suppose he could have had a fully fleshed out plan for his primary choice you're assuming AND 305 incase conditions like too crowded of a plane were an issue in the primary choice.

Some reasons I think he most likely wanted 305 specifically:

#1 picked a flight that ended with nightfall but provided possibility of a jump relatively early in the night.  I think it's most likely he wanted to jump at night time to reduce ground traffic and air visibility upon jumping and I don't think he wanted to land at 1 in the morning or anything crazy like that and have to escape dog ass tired.  In your scenario we'd have to assume he wanted to jump mid to late afternoon at the earliest.

#2 he curiously was fully prepared to jump but waited 30+ minutes to jump which I believe indicates he had an intended landing spot along V23.  I'm not sure if you've picked out a specific flight but I assume your primary flight would not require a V23 route.

#3 there was limited airlines that published ahead of time that the plane was a 727 (or DC9) in its marketing materials.  I think there's a good chance Cooper picked NWA and 305 (in part) was because he had a pamphlet that explicitly told him 305 was going to be a 727 and he could build a full plane around the flight with certainty he'd have ventral airstairs.  Was this level of detail disclosed ahead of time in UAL marketing materials?

#4 he references Mcchord and give a fair guestimate of the distance which potentially indicates planning specifically for parachute delivery to Seattle

I have been at this case for over 10 years now and have never had any idea or theory for how Cooper got to PDX or selected 305.. I had just assumed he planned 305.. maybe he did, but maybe not. I am 100% convinced that he did not plan to jump in the PNW and it was an early jump due to the plane landing in Reno. The problem I always had was that the plane flew North to Seattle then he demanded South fly to Mexico burning excess fuel. His request to fly to Mexico form Seattle being out of fuel range is also significant. The Sky Chefs matches indicate he may have flown into PDX.. not proof.

But, when I thought about it, there is nothing that actually confirms he planned 305, we all assumed it. 

To your points. My take,

#1. Yes, Cooper wanted a night jump. So did Hahneman, he hijacked much earlier in the day but delayed the plane to ensure a night jump, his flight was longer. Again, I believe Cooper wanted to jump much later and further south.

#2. I do not believe Cooper wanted to jump in the PNW or that he had a specific V23 LZ. He decided to jump ASAP before the plane landed in Reno. Cooper's LZ was ad hoc.

#3. UAL owned Sky Chefs, flew into Portland and had 727's listed on its schedule. Cooper was likely from back East.. Does anybody think Cooper didn't do a dry run on a 727.

#4. There is no indication he wanted chutes from McChord. The crew erred telling him they were coming from McChord to which he responded. Cooper was familiar with McChord but that had nothing to do with obtaining the chutes.

 

Admittedly this is a theory,, he flew into PDX on a 727 possibly UAL, that was his initial hijacking plan but was aborted perhaps due to perceived sky marshals. At PDX he chose 305..  

There was no indication at all how he got to PDX,, taxi, bus, walk, hotels, ride from a friend, nothing panned out.

So, how does he get to PDX with a Sky Chefs matchbook.. 

either he flew in or he got it at the airport or from Tina. 

[olemisscub 537]

On 6/4/2025 at 6:27 PM, FLYJACK said:

 

 

Doesn't look like the machine offers Raleigh's.. the Raleigh/Belair sign at top is just an ad, the TRUE cigs aren't offered either.

At least at the time this image was taken.

No Raleigh's indeed. 9 is definitely Viceroy and that last one is TRUE. 

 

[FunnyStuff 8]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I have been at this case for over 10 years now and have never had any idea or theory for how Cooper got to PDX or selected 305.. I had just assumed he planned 305.. maybe he did, but maybe not. I am 100% convinced that he did not plan to jump in the PNW and it was an early jump due to the plane landing in Reno. The problem I always had was that the plane flew North to Seattle then he demanded South fly to Mexico burning excess fuel. His request to fly to Mexico form Seattle being out of fuel range is also significant. The Sky Chefs matches indicate he may have flown into PDX.. not proof.

But, when I thought about it, there is nothing that actually confirms he planned 305, we all assumed it. 

To your points. My take,

#1. Yes, Cooper wanted a night jump. So did Hahneman, he hijacked much earlier in the day but delayed the plane to ensure a night jump, his flight was longer. Again, I believe Cooper wanted to jump much later and further south.

#2. I do not believe Cooper wanted to jump in the PNW or that he had a specific V23 LZ. He decided to jump ASAP before the plane landed in Reno. Cooper's LZ was ad hoc.

#3. UAL owned Sky Chefs, flew into Portland and had 727's listed on its schedule. Cooper was likely from back East.. Does anybody think Cooper didn't do a dry run on a 727.

#4. There is no indication he wanted chutes from McChord. The crew erred telling him they were coming from McChord to which he responded. Cooper was familiar with McChord but that had nothing to do with obtaining the chutes.

 

Admittedly this is a theory,, he flew into PDX on a 727 possibly UAL, that was his initial hijacking plan but was aborted perhaps due to perceived sky marshals. At PDX he chose 305..  

There was no indication at all how he got to PDX,, taxi, bus, walk, hotels, ride from a friend, nothing panned out.

So, how does he get to PDX with a Sky Chefs matchbook.. 

either he flew in or he got it at the airport or from Tina. 

Last thing I want to do is get into a back and forth with you because clearly your case knowledge dwarfs mine and this is mostly subjective but some quick thoughts on your rebuttales:

#1 I'm not sure I can buy this one.  I feel confident Cooper picked a "puddle jump" for the fact it allowed him to get his demands as rapidly as possible.  By delaying the flight in the air he would be unecessarily allowing more time for the authorities to get a game plan in place and more time for the passengers to potentially discover something is amiss and earn himself an axe in the head a-la the copy cat.  I'm not extremely well versed in the Hahneman case but for all intents and purposes he seem much more ad hoc, wild, and reckless than Cooper so I wouldn't glean much form his handling of the hijacking (or really any copy cat for that matter).

#2 the problem with this statement is he DID NOT jump ASAP.  He had the chute on, bag tied, Tina in the cockpit, and the stairs down and he still waits 30+ minutes.  Why does he doe this unless he is targeting an area?

#3 I certainly think he did a dry run but I think it's highly likely his selection filter was applied before so.  For all I know UAL also published plane type ahead of time so this may not matter.  Also, in all likelihood PDX had skychef matchbooks available in the lounge.  Equally possible, he lived far away from Portland but identified 305 as the best flight for the job and he just gets the matchbook en route to Portland or some other flight.  For the matchbook to have come from elsewhere doesn't require he wanted to hijack an alternate plane. 

#4 I may need to concede this one to you as you likely have greater case knowledge but in Tina's second interview didn't see bring up she thought it was odd he mentions he knew "the parachutes are coming from Mcchord, shouldn't take so long"?  Are you saying the crew disclosed to him before this statement they were coming from there?

In reference to the "burning excess fuel" point, I think it's quite interesting that from Seatle to Mexico City would typically be the maximum range of the plane (if it weren't flying with flaps and stairs down).  I actually find this to be a greater point to suggest he DID pick 305 as the primary target ahead of time as it seems likely he wanted the plane to fly as long as possible to set the largest possible search zone.  Remember he nor anyone else knew about the pressure bump phenomena so as far as he knew he'd jump within 100 miles of Portalnd and the FBI would have to search all the way to Mexico.

[FLYJACK 768]

1 hour ago, FunnyStuff said:

Last thing I want to do is get into a back and forth with you because clearly your case knowledge dwarfs mine and this is mostly subjective but some quick thoughts on your rebuttales:

#1 I'm not sure I can buy this one.  I feel confident Cooper picked a "puddle jump" for the fact it allowed him to get his demands as rapidly as possible.  By delaying the flight in the air he would be unecessarily allowing more time for the authorities to get a game plan in place and more time for the passengers to potentially discover something is amiss and earn himself an axe in the head a-la the copy cat.  I'm not extremely well versed in the Hahneman case but for all intents and purposes he seem much more ad hoc, wild, and reckless than Cooper so I wouldn't glean much form his handling of the hijacking (or really any copy cat for that matter).

#2 the problem with this statement is he DID NOT jump ASAP.  He had the chute on, bag tied, Tina in the cockpit, and the stairs down and he still waits 30+ minutes.  Why does he doe this unless he is targeting an area?

#3 I certainly think he did a dry run but I think it's highly likely his selection filter was applied before so.  For all I know UAL also published plane type ahead of time so this may not matter.  Also, in all likelihood PDX had skychef matchbooks available in the lounge.  Equally possible, he lived far away from Portland but identified 305 as the best flight for the job and he just gets the matchbook en route to Portland or some other flight.  For the matchbook to have come from elsewhere doesn't require he wanted to hijack an alternate plane. 

#4 I may need to concede this one to you as you likely have greater case knowledge but in Tina's second interview didn't see bring up she thought it was odd he mentions he knew "the parachutes are coming from Mcchord, shouldn't take so long"?  Are you saying the crew disclosed to him before this statement they were coming from there?

In reference to the "burning excess fuel" point, I think it's quite interesting that from Seatle to Mexico City would typically be the maximum range of the plane (if it weren't flying with flaps and stairs down).  I actually find this to be a greater point to suggest he DID pick 305 as the primary target ahead of time as it seems likely he wanted the plane to fly as long as possible to set the largest possible search zone.  Remember he nor anyone else knew about the pressure bump phenomena so as far as he knew he'd jump within 100 miles of Portalnd and the FBI would have to search all the way to Mexico.

Yes, this is mostly subjective so I won't claim you are wrong,, I try to use Bayesian analysis for these Cooper case "uncertainties" and it has worked very well so far.

#1. The puddle jump idea is sound reasoning but not confirmed by the evidence. Hahneman hijacked a longer flight but had it land at a nearer location. He also delayed the flight by having it land again to get a different denomination. But if Cooper's original LZ was much further south an earlier flight may produce a night jump.

#2. After Reno was in play Cooper wanted stairs open on takeoff but he agreed to up, he had difficulty getting them down and that delayed his exit. Most believe he wanted to jump ASAP.. I differ only that this was his not his initial plan. There is no way he targeting his LZ, he had no pre knowledge of the planes location. This is almost universally accepted by Cooper experts.

#3. The Sky Chefs matchbooks don't prove it but supports the theory. UAL did publish the plane models.. if Cooper flew into Portland that is a huge risk to carry the "bomb" real or fake.. another reason I think that flight was his first target but aborted.

#4 Chutes coming from McChord was an error conveyed to the crew. Cooper never asked for chutes from McChord.

So, using Bayesian analysis I use what is most probable not what is possible.. the possibilities do not advance the case. 

You are expressing a long held belief that Cooper wanted the longest distance to jump early and a greater search area.. I don't accept this, there is no evidence for it and it is pure speculation started years ago. 

I have another theory which is detailed and I have expressed many times before.

I don't want to go down that rabbit hole but briefly Cooper's demands were conveyed to the cockpit via Tina. Cooper never intended the plane to fly dirty all the way, it was a miscommunication via Tina, He intended the plane to fly dirty when the airstairs were lowered inflight which was his initial demand. There is no way Cooper made a demand to fly to Mexico nonstop knowing that was not achievable and would be rejected, he believed it could make it. He had aviation knowledge and there is no way he made an error in range. Additionally since he gave no flight directions, I believe he was going to that later in the flight but when Reno came into play he decided to jump ASAP. He also rejected large US airports for refuelling, why if he was jumping in the PNW anyway. He was still thinking he was going to be on the plane when it stopped for fuel.

 

 

Edited June 6 by FLYJACK

[FunnyStuff 8]

21 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, this is mostly subjective so I won't claim you are wrong,, I try to use Bayesian analysis for these Cooper case "uncertainties" and it has worked very well so far.

#1. The puddle jump idea is sound reasoning but not confirmed by the evidence. Hahneman hijacked a longer flight but had it land at a nearer location. He also delayed the flight by having it land again to get a different denomination. But if Cooper's original LZ was much further south an earlier flight may produce a night jump.

#2. After Reno was in play Cooper wanted stairs open on takeoff but he agreed to up, he had difficulty getting them down and that delayed his exit. Most believe he wanted to jump ASAP.. I differ only that this was his not his initial plan. There is no way he targeting his LZ, he had no pre knowledge of the planes location. This is almost universally accepted by Cooper experts.

#3. The Sky Chefs matchbooks don't prove it but supports the theory. UAL did publish the plane models.. if Cooper flew into Portland that is a huge risk to carry the "bomb" real or fake.. another reason I think that flight was his first target but aborted.

#4 Chutes coming from McChord was an error conveyed to the crew. Cooper never asked for chutes from McChord.

So, using Bayesian analysis I use what is most probable not what is possible.. the possibilities do not advance the case. 

You are expressing a long held belief that Cooper wanted the longest distance to jump early and a greater search area.. I don't accept this, there is no evidence for it and it is pure speculation started years ago. 

I have another theory which is detailed and I have expressed many times before.

I don't want to go down that rabbit hole but briefly Cooper's demands were conveyed to the cockpit via Tina. Cooper never intended the plane to fly dirty all the way, it was a miscommunication via Tina, He intended the plane to fly dirty when the airstairs were lowered inflight which was his initial demand. There is no way Cooper made a demand to fly to Mexico nonstop knowing that was not achievable and would be rejected, he believed it could make it. He had aviation knowledge and there is no way he made an error in range. Additionally since he gave no flight directions, I believe he was going to that later in the flight but when Reno came into play he decided to jump ASAP. He also rejected large US airports for refuelling, why if he was jumping in the PNW anyway. He was still thinking he was going to be on the plane when it stopped for fuel.

 

 

A passengerless 727 could definitely make a non-stop flight from Seattle to Mexico city if not for flying dirty and likely could make even dirty. The ferry range is in excess of 3,500 miles and it's 2,040 nautical miles from Seattle to MC

[FLYJACK 768]

9 minutes ago, FunnyStuff said:

A passengerless 727 could definitely make a non-stop flight from Seattle to Mexico city if not for flying dirty and likely could make even dirty. The ferry range is in excess of 3,500 miles and it's 2,040 nautical miles from Seattle to MC

Yes, I know. 

Cooper demanded nonstop to Mexico not Mexico City. Flying dirty was the problem. 

How does he make that error.. Most likely, he didn't.

My theory is that he initially wanted it to fly dirty when the airstairs were lowered inflight not from takeoff and he would direct the plane location and lowering of airstairs inflight.

When Reno was in play he wanted airstairs lowered on takeoff to jump ASAP and that means fly dirty from takeoff as well. That is what happened but not his initial plan.

This means he wanted to jump futher south.

Edited June 6 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 537]

11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

#2. After Reno was in play Cooper wanted stairs open on takeoff but he agreed to up, he had difficulty getting them down and that delayed his exit. Most believe he wanted to jump ASAP.. I differ only that this was his not his initial plan. There is no way he targeting his LZ, he had no pre knowledge of the planes location. This is almost universally accepted by Cooper experts.

 

As you know, I'm not opposed to a theory that posits a later jump time. The prospect of having to stop in the states to refuel seems to have shaken him up a bit, and him having to improvise a new plan explains how haphazard he seemed to be in the later stages of the hijacking. 

Yet I do think it's logical and reasonable to assume that he wanted to jump back where he started. The only problem with that is that he didn't really create a scenario to where he could guarantee that they would be flying back over Portland. V23 and V27 were the only airways that headed south out of Seattle. V27 would be a pretty dangerous airway to risk them taking if you were wanting to jump near Portland. It hugs the coast and is sometimes over the water in that area around the Washington/Oregon border.  

I've never bought into a Seattle jump because Cooper wasn't ready to jump when they took off. Tina says he was still messing with the bag when they were taking off i.e. he wasn't ready yet. If he wanted to jump in Seattle, it's reasonable to think that he would have been totally situated when they took off. 

Regardless of where he wanted to jump, Cooper was certainly winging his DZ. 

[FunnyStuff 8]

46 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, I know. 

Cooper demanded nonstop to Mexico not Mexico City. Flying dirty was the problem. 

How does he make that error.. Most likely, he didn't.

My theory is that he initially wanted it to fly dirty when the airstairs were lowered inflight not from takeoff and he would direct the plane location and lowering of airstairs inflight.

When Reno was in play he wanted airstairs lowered on takeoff to jump ASAP and that means fly dirty from takeoff as well. That is what happened but not his initial plan.

This means he wanted to jump futher south.

Did he not specify Mexico city. I honestly don't know where I'm remembering that from of that's not correct. Secondly if he can make it to Mexico city he could make it to the Mexican border 

[FLYJACK 768]

6 minutes ago, FunnyStuff said:

Did he not specify Mexico city. I honestly don't know where I'm remembering that from of that's not correct. Secondly if he can make it to Mexico city he could make it to the Mexican border 

Yes, he said going to Mexico City or any place in Mexico, can't land in US for any reason.

So flying dirty the plane could not make Mexico..

Either Cooper made an error or his flying dirty demand was misunderstood. I lean heavily to his demand misunderstood because it was relayed via Tina.

Edited June 6 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 768]

52 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

As you know, I'm not opposed to a theory that posits a later jump time. The prospect of having to stop in the states to refuel seems to have shaken him up a bit, and him having to improvise a new plan explains how haphazard he seemed to be in the later stages of the hijacking. 

Yet I do think it's logical and reasonable to assume that he wanted to jump back where he started. The only problem with that is that he didn't really create a scenario to where he could guarantee that they would be flying back over Portland. V23 and V27 were the only airways that headed south out of Seattle. V27 would be a pretty dangerous airway to risk them taking if you were wanting to jump near Portland. It hugs the coast and is sometimes over the water in that area around the Washington/Oregon border.  

I've never bought into a Seattle jump because Cooper wasn't ready to jump when they took off. Tina says he was still messing with the bag when they were taking off i.e. he wasn't ready yet. If he wanted to jump in Seattle, it's reasonable to think that he would have been totally situated when they took off. 

Regardless of where he wanted to jump, Cooper was certainly winging his DZ. 

Why would Cooper want to jump where he started?

We know he rejected US airports for refuelling and gave no flight directions.

[georger 264]

56 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

As you know, I'm not opposed to a theory that posits a later jump time. The prospect of having to stop in the states to refuel seems to have shaken him up a bit, and him having to improvise a new plan explains how haphazard he seemed to be in the later stages of the hijacking. 

Yet I do think it's logical and reasonable to assume that he wanted to jump back where he started. The only problem with that is that he didn't really create a scenario to where he could guarantee that they would be flying back over Portland. V23 and V27 were the only airways that headed south out of Seattle. V27 would be a pretty dangerous airway to risk them taking if you were wanting to jump near Portland. It hugs the coast and is sometimes over the water in that area around the Washington/Oregon border.  

I've never bought into a Seattle jump because Cooper wasn't ready to jump when they took off. Tina says he was still messing with the bag when they were taking off i.e. he wasn't ready yet. If he wanted to jump in Seattle, it's reasonable to think that he would have been totally situated when they took off. 

Regardless of where he wanted to jump, Cooper was certainly winging his DZ. 

Carr had this wrong. Carr assumed Coop was ready to jump when as you say, he wasnt. Tina confirmed he wasnt ready ...

[Kamkisky 5]

If Cooper wanted to jump later, where? Unless that intended spot is in California -ie south of Oregon- the Reno switch from Mexico should have made no difference. 
 

Here’s my take:

Cooper picked 305 because he knew the area from the air and ground. The PNW is likely not where he lived and the typical grey weather helps this type of crime, jumping into a clear night makes him more visible. He also selected 305 because it was a short flight, this makes times and distances more manageable. 
 

I strongly suspect he flew 305 in a dry run. I also suspect he flew the area at night prior to the skyjacking, maybe in a commercial plane or maybe as a pilot of a small plane. 
 

There are three other main factors that lead me to believe he wanted to jump north of Portland:

1) The pilot Ryan talked to that has been flying in the area since before 71. That pilot said the first city lights that were visible when going south were Battle Ground. North of BG is dark forest. And as one got to BG the lights of the VC/Port metro appear. 
 

2) A poster on Reddit just did simulations on the flight and I-5 can be a guide post from Centralia south. The poster also said Portland and BG are EASIER to spot at night because of the lights and during the day the relatively flat terrain allows them to kinda sneak up on you. 
 

3) Cooper waited through the darkness for 30 minutes. He begins to act -oscillations- right as the plane reaches BG. He jumps between BG and the metro, into a great place for a night jump to happen. 
 

Maybe he just got super lucky. But his actions seem to tell a different story. He used the I-5, BG and metro lights to guide him. It wouldn’t have taken more than a dry run or two to figure this plan out and it worked perfectly. Why? Because it is simple and with controlled variables. 
 

I think Cooper had experience flying and landing at night and that’s part of why he could spot Tacoma. this wasn’t his first time navigating from the sky.  He was comfortable with that skill.
 

McNally said when he jumped he could look forward from the stairs. If you look at the flight path, just south of BG the plane is perfectly aligned to see the metro lights off his left shoulder and BG lights off the tail of the plane. 
 

As for Mexico and V23, maybe there was a mixup in the flying dirty the whole way or not. I lean towards not. It was the pilots who first suggest taking off with the stairs down. Cooper didn’t fight them either way. Why? Because he didn’t really care. He just wants two things…go south and in the configuration he requested when he is ready to jump.

I think Cooper preferred Reno because it’s smaller, if something happened and he couldn’t jump (remember he’s on the ground with the stairs closed while negotiating) he wanted to give himself the best odds. So he wanted the most podunk places. He said Mexico to create the longest search area, obviously not knowing about the pressure bump. He had likely looked up the range of the 727. 

As for V23, maybe he knew or not  I don’t think it matters. There are only 4 main directions and Cooper was clear, south. That’s it. That's the flight path he wants, it takes him directly where he plans to go  

I also believe he picked the day before Thanksgiving because it would slow down law enforcement…and it did. 

In short:

-skyjack over terrain you know, and keep it simple (one direction and one metro away)

-do it at night and right before a holiday

-use the major visual clues for orientation 

 

 

 

Edited June 6 by Kamkisky

[georger 264]

59 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Why would Cooper want to jump where he started?

We know he rejected US airports for refuelling and gave no flight directions.

Coop is definitely assessing his plan for escape with the money secured and not being apprehended. - that is his priority and feeds any decision on where and when to jump. What did he actually do after liftoff at Seattle. He immediately prepares for a jump. Whatever his psychology or whatever he thought or processed in his head, he prepares to jump asap! He gets the money tied to himself. Most importantly he begins negotiating through Tina with the pilot to slow and stabilise the plane ....to maximize his chances for a successful jump. And he jumps.  This is not theoretical. He jumped and landed within walking distance of PDX ... everything else and all theories about his thought process and options are irrelevant.

Our task is to grapple with what Cooper did, not what he might have done or his wish list!

Under the circumstances as they developed his decision to jump is wise. He got away. He proved to be untraceable!! God only knows how some of the money got to Tena Bar. The world is missing part of the story after he landed with the money apparently intact and undamaged ... so far there is no evidence to fill in that gap! Fifty years later there apparently is no further evidence to be had.

Based on his actions, Cooper wanted to place distance between himself and any ability of authorities to get to him quickly while allowing himself the freedom to travel safely. Years later the next evidence of Cooper is close to PDX on a sandbar north of PDX on the Washington side of the river. Based on that he didn't quite make it home ? 

And if Deputy Jones is correct, 'if the money is here, Cooper himself was here' ?

Edited June 6 by georger

[olemisscub 537]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Why would Cooper want to jump where he started?

Because that’s where his transportation was, either his own car or an accomplice, if we assume that he began his day in Portland. 

Edited June 6 by olemisscub

[FunnyStuff 8]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

#4 Chutes coming from McChord was an error conveyed to the crew. Cooper never asked for chutes from McChord.

 

I didn't mean to suggest he asked for chutes from Mccord but instead point out he had awareness of them likely coming from their. Attached is one of the pilot's(I assume) testimonies from vault release 65 in which they point out the hijacker indicated awareness the chute would come from Mccord and the distance away. Seems like Cooper either #1 mapped out likely distance from a parachute from the where he anticipated getting his demand met OR #2 he had prior intimate knowledge of the area. I feel it's unlikely Cooper would've had that level of detail on a backup plan but I suppose it's possible.