DB Cooper

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

see "size and shape" here and the pics, where they talk about "free" /"detached" or "attached" lobes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlobe

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

The glasses always confused the issue for me and was one reason I never looked too closely at the sketches before. Put people in the same sunglasses or even ordinary glasses type and they all start to look the same, we know this.

Of course, people who have to wear glasses most of the time seldom wear sunglasses (unless they have prescription sunglasses, or those ones that go darker in the sun, but neither of these seemed to fit Cooper). Did Duane even ever own any sunglasses??

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

georger · December 22, 2008

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Doesn't look like the same person to me.

Now that I am concentrating on the sketches, the photo of Duane has vertical wrinkles on the brow above the nose (if you see what I mean). This type of thing is normally already starting to be in evidence by the 40s but I see no indication of it in the sketch.

The earlobes. Was it here that there was a discussion about earlobes a while ago, or did I see it somewhere else? - about there only being 2 types of earlobes, I can't remember the technical term - one going almost straight down to the face (as per Duane's photos) and one where they are "separate", which is what the sketches seem to show.

Duane has completely different cranial proportions.
Complete different ear & lobe proportions.

Now, would it not be hilarious that we have been sitting here for months dicussing this seriously?
And Jo has ben at it for ears, and they arent even
the same primate! ?

Hilarious!

I am now going to really split this shit open.

Where, oh Jo?, where is a good photo of Duane?
A straight up facial shot? A why withold that for 13+ years? And anyone spent 5 mins discussing this
over the years without even so much as a real photo of the guy?

Get off the grift, Jo Blo!

most of the comparisons I've seen have Duane wearing glasses which doesn't make sense to me.

Jo was hard pressed to find any pictures of Duane without glasses of the right age...because he wore them all the time.

Remember I dismissed Duane solely because of that.
I couldn't understand these "matches" done at Vegas with glasses on.

I always noticed these diffrences but just didnt say
anything, to let Jo go on with her agenda.

Ckret told us in the beginning where this was at,
but Jo continued with her neurotic demonstration.

Maybe Jo will now come up with some new photos
of Duane, but there is no resemblance between
Duane and any Cooper photo I have, and I have them all. That includes the Schafner remake.

With or without sun glasses, cranial proportions
etc. don't lie.

Georger.

snowmman · December 22, 2008

Quote
The glasses always confused the issue for me and was one reason I never looked too closely at the sketches before. Put people in the same sunglasses or even ordinary glasses type and they all start to look the same, we know this.

Of course, people who have to wear glasses most of the time seldom wear sunglasses (unless they have prescription sunglasses, or those ones that go darker in the sun, but neither of these seemed to fit Cooper). Did Duane even ever own any sunglasses??

I've been thinking about the idea of the sunglasses possibly being a special purchase just for the hijack, i.e. a disguise.

This was when I realized, from the sketch and description, that they were wraparound plastic. Not aviator style, not Ray-Ban Wayfarer style.

I was wondering why a 45 year old man in 1971 would purchase wraparound shades. My bias thinks they would skew younger. But maybe they were bought just for the hijack?

I don't have a picture yet of wraparounds from that era, that I think are a good match.

I guess Jo will be telling us shortly about Duane's wraparounds, in the safe at LDS headquarters.

georger · December 22, 2008

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Quote
The glasses always confused the issue for me and was one reason I never looked too closely at the sketches before. Put people in the same sunglasses or even ordinary glasses type and they all start to look the same, we know this.

Of course, people who have to wear glasses most of the time seldom wear sunglasses (unless they have prescription sunglasses, or those ones that go darker in the sun, but neither of these seemed to fit Cooper). Did Duane even ever own any sunglasses??

I've been thinking about the idea of the sunglasses possibly being a special purchase just for the hijack, i.e. a disguise.

This was when I realized, from the sketch and description, that they were wraparound plastic. Not aviator style, not Ray-Ban Wayfarer style.

I was wondering why a 45 year old man in 1971 would purchase wraparound shades. My bias thinks they would skew younger. But maybe they were bought just for the hijack?

I don't have a picture yet of wraparounds from that era, that I think are a good match.

I guess Jo will be telling us shortly about Duane's wraparounds, in the safe at LDS headquarters.

Shalom. Happy Holidays.

Georger

snowmman · December 22, 2008

I found an intriguing site that has info and pictures on cigarettes smoked by troops in WWII.

it sells reproduction packages (who knew people would collect that?)

in any case, there's an interesting comment about Raleigh:
"The often less desired Raleigh Cigarettes. Still a great display piece, and seemingly a default cigarette issued to the frontline Joes."
http://www.wwiisupply.com/smokes.html

another site notes:
"the way we had to buy two packs of Raleigh cigarettes in order to get one of Lucky Strikes during the shortages of World War II? ..."

i.e. Lucky Strikes were preferred. Raleighs more plentiful.

Found another site that showed the bulk packaging the shipped the Raleighs in, to the WWII troops.

Maybe the Raleighs were just another sign of "not much money in Cooper's pockets?"

skyjack71 · December 22, 2008

You are using a very old prison shot that was scanned by the brother and squashed - The shots before and after are not like that. There was total distortion of the head and face on that one prison shot but it was used by the media in the beginning becaue we didn't have anything else except the other photo I had.

You are also using the BING CROSBY composite - the witnesses will tell you it was a no Bananas thing. This is how Cooper got away...by the time the FBI put out a decent composite, Cooper was gone - he had changed his looks -longer hair and dental work - gained weight and Ha Ha Ha they would never catch him now. HA HA HA.

skyjack71 · December 22, 2008

Quote
The glasses always confused the issue for me and was one reason I never looked too closely at the sketches before. Put people in the same sunglasses or even ordinary glasses type and they all start to look the same, we know this.

Of course, people who have to wear glasses most of the time seldom wear sunglasses (unless they have prescription sunglasses, or those ones that go darker in the sun, but neither of these seemed to fit Cooper). Did Duane even ever own any sunglasses??

Duane was FAR sighted and did not need prescription glasses for the jump - this was to his advantage. He could drive without glasses. And yes he had sunglasses and he had prespription sunglasses during our marriage - but he was older and your eyes change as you age.

I do not know if he had prescription sunglasses prior to our marrage in 1978. Attached is a pair of sunglasses he owned in 1971 - and this is not a staged photo...the woman was his wife and they both owned a pair of these glasses - you have seen this before and we discussed all of this before...in detail. The photo was taken around the same time as the dye hair (polaroid shots).

I am attaching a second photo of the glasses she is holding - dead ringers aren't they - This photo was taken in the fall of 1971 in Georgia - I believe this is the Sandy Springs Market.

This is the closest I can come to the glasses being in the LDS safe in Salt Lake....HAHAHA. Snowman are you getting Old Timers - we have gone over and over all of this before - I am the one who is supposed to be delusional and crazy, but my memory is a helluva lot better than yours.

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

Now that I am thinking about the sketches more things that were niggling at the back of my mind are coming to the fore. Like the way I never really thought the sketches looked a lot like Duane but never thought too hard about why, until I now examined them and caught (inter alia) the vertical wrinkles and the earlobes (neither of which will be affected by squashing a computer image).

Here's my latest niggle.
Sketches are used to catch criminals. One assumes the law enforcement agencies would want them accurate, so they would hire decent artists.
I know a few artists and they would have no problem capturing motion, they are decent artists trained in drawing from life. I know police/FBI sketch artists draw on description but surely they would have had similar background training?
Why have we been told that the sketch artist apparently had a problem capturing something with the lip because it is difficult to capture motion? Does the FBI pay badly and not hire decent artists, or what?

edited to add: looks like the artists need a lot of training, plus must be of sound morals yada yada yada. wonder if the requirements were similar back then?
http://ask.yahoo.com/20021016.html

another add: the above url notes forensic artists are also the guys who do courtroom sketches. these are obviously often done in motion.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

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Duane was FAR sighted and did not need prescription glasses for the jump - this was to his advantage. He could drive without glasses. And yes he had sunglasses and he had prespription sunglasses during our marriage - but he was older and your eyes change as you age.

I do not know if he had prescription sunglasses prior to our marrage in 1978. Attached is a pair of sunglasses he owned in 1971 - and this is not a staged photo...the woman was his wife and they both owned a pair of these glasses - you have seen this before and we discussed all of this before...in detail. The photo was taken around the same time as the dye hair (polaroid shots).

I am attaching a second photo of the glasses she is holding - dead ringers aren't they - This photo was taken in the fall of 1971 in Georgia - I believe this is the Sandy Springs Market.

This is the closest I can come to the glasses being in the LDS safe in Salt Lake....HAHAHA. Snowman are you getting Old Timers - we have gone over and over all of this before - I am the one who is supposed to be delusional and crazy, but my memory is a helluva lot better than yours.

In Snow's defense he has I am sure been concentrating on a lot of other things, leads etc as well and not purely on Duane for 13 years.

jo, yes the sunglasses look the same (to my untrained eye, i haven't done Snow's intense analysis) but then again you would probably find millions of people had sunglasses like that at that time. I have a picture of my mom (here, "at the bottom of the globe" as snow would say) in sunglasses that look like that around that time. You need to concentrate on what is different to make the case for Duane stick.

btw can you please explain exactly why you say Duane being farsighted would have been an advantage to his jump?
fwiw the farsghted people i know would generally need their glasses to write notes with.

Edited to add: farsighted jumpers please chime in with anecdotes. In particular, how easy it is to read your alti if you are farsighted?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

skyjack71 · December 22, 2008

Quote
Jo was hard pressed to find any pictures of Duane without glasses of the right age...because he wore them all the time.

Remember I dismissed Duane solely because of that.
I couldn't understand these "matches" done at Vegas with glasses on.

Maybe Jo will now come up with some new photos
of Duane, but there is no resemblance between
Duane and any Cooper photo I have, and I have them all. That includes the Schafner remake.

The Vegas System was done using multiple photos and I can say without a doubt this little experiment and all of this drooling Snowman and Georger are making will not hold up against that system.

I have already explained the glasses - Duane needed them for close up and not for distance - DO you know what FAR sighted means?

He could shoot a pine cone out of a tree without his glasses. He culd see a fox without his glasses - I always missed them.

I didn't meet Duane unti 1977 - and any photos I have of him from before that have been acquired by asking and some that were volunteered.

If you were Cooper would you want pictiures of yourself out there without glasses and with sunglasses on - would you want anyone to even get a hint you were Cooper? NO.

As for the mouth of the prison photo - He was Mad as Hell wasnt he. Some of you are so set in your opinion that Duane was NOT Cooper that you failed to see the obvious - you focused on the expression and the lower lips - what you didn't see is the turn at the corners of the mouth.

Then look at the other photos and note the lips are very similar to the composite - put a slight pout of agitation on the regular lips along with the down turn corners and you have the mouth Rose was trying to draw.

The only way to know for sure - is what no one has done - Do a photo line up with Tina using ALL of the suspects with multiple photos of each and look-a-likes, then add in a few decent matches from the general population. These pics to be used should be chosen by surviving memeber of the families - then we will know a fair representation has been done.

If I had photos (multiple pics of all the suspects) and other look-a-likes I would try to go to Tina myself...but if i did that the FBI would refuse anything gained from such a meeting. Frankly I think about it a lot, but then I ask my same question every tiime. What if she were my daughter?

I have not ever given up that little piece of hope that one day she and I will meet privately, but after all these yrs it will not happen. She has a right to a life with privacy and I will not be the one to take it away from her.

georger · December 22, 2008

Quote
You are using a very old prison shot that was scanned by the brother and squashed - The shots before and after are not like that. There was total distortion of the head and face on that one prison shot but it was used by the media in the beginning becaue we didn't have anything else except the other photo I had.

You are also using the BING CROSBY composite - the witnesses will tell you it was a no Bananas thing. This is how Cooper got away...by the time the FBI put out a decent composite, Cooper was gone - he had changed his looks -longer hair and dental work - gained weight and Ha Ha Ha they would never catch him now. HA HA HA.[/repl

Reply> Your word is worthless.

Quote

georger · December 22, 2008

Quote
Quote
The glasses always confused the issue for me and was one reason I never looked too closely at the sketches before. Put people in the same sunglasses or even ordinary glasses type and they all start to look the same, we know this.

Of course, people who have to wear glasses most of the time seldom wear sunglasses (unless they have prescription sunglasses, or those ones that go darker in the sun, but neither of these seemed to fit Cooper). Did Duane even ever own any sunglasses??

Duane was FAR sighted and did not need prescription glasses for the jump - this was to his advantage. He could drive without glasses. And yes he had sunglasses and he had prespription sunglasses during our marriage - but he was older and your eyes change as you age.

I do not know if he had prescription sunglasses prior to our marrage in 1978. Attached is a pair of sunglasses he owned in 1971 - and this is not a staged photo...the woman was his wife and they both owned a pair of these glasses - you have seen this before and we discussed all of this before...in detail. The photo was taken around the same time as the dye hair (polaroid shots).

I am attaching a second photo of the glasses she is holding - dead ringers aren't they - This photo was taken in the fall of 1971 in Georgia - I believe this is the Sandy Springs Market.

This is the closest I can come to the glasses being in the LDS safe in Salt Lake....HAHAHA. Snowman are you getting Old Timers - we have gone over and over all of this before - I am the one who is supposed to be delusional and crazy, but my memory is a helluva lot better than yours.

Reply> Glasses? What have glasses got to do with
physical anthrpology? Are you now saying Duane
was a chimp, bonobo, or lemur?

HA HA HA !

Georger.

skyjack71 · December 22, 2008

Quote
btw can you please explain exactly why you say Duane being farsighted would have been an advantage to his jump?
fwiw the farsghted people i know would generally need their glasses to write notes with.

You must not wear glass or have been around a lot of people who wear glasses. Far Sighted means tha you can see better than the average person things far-away, but things up close such as reading would need adjustment.

I am near sighted. I can read and work on my computer without glasses - but watching TV across a room or getting behind the wheel of a car requires glasses.

Nature has a way of making temporary adjustments during our lives due to Presmyopia - which is the aging characteristic of the eyes.
What this means is the two stages cross and for a period of time a person might not need glasses for whatever purpose they did in the beginning. I know this is true with near- sightness. I don't know if they have this cross-over being Farsighted.

Regardless - at age 45 he didn't need glasses for driving - just reading and close work. Farsighted guys make good sharp shooters without glasses, but they need glasses to load the darn thing. Duane was actually drove a lot without his glasses, but then if he had to llok at map he needed his glasses - so he used a bifocal
The lower vision was strong - the upper vison needed little corrections even at 68 which is the last time he had his glasses changed. All of his glasses were donated out yrs ago, but I have a copy of his last script.

skyjack71 · December 22, 2008

Reference the Glasses

Quote
You need to concentrate on what is different to make the case for Duane stick

.

I know but I was answering the question he asked. Those glasses were very common at that time...
They were all over the place - they weren't anything special.

What I think is unusual is a middle age couple all dressed up to go out - his hair fresly dyed with
brown suit and tie with a gold shirt and she with her wig on. (picture taken with a polaroid camera)
Next picture is at a flea market with a briefcase under the table and glasses in her hand. (also taken with a polaroid).

She sent me both of the pictures before she died. WHY? Did she have them all along? Why did she decide to share them with me - she sent me the originals...that was even more odd. I was going to make copies and send the originals back to her, but she wanted me to have them. How or why would you or do you stage something to be used over 30 yrs later. Did she know at the time what was going on or was it after the fact - the same way he used me?

I talked to her from 1997 until she died in November of 2005 or 2006(geeze I forgot what yr she died). Getting too old to remember all of this.

georger · December 22, 2008

from .

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

Quote

[As for the mouth of the prison photo - He was Mad as Hell wasnt he. Some of you are so set in your opinion that Duane was NOT Cooper that you failed to see the obvious - you focused on the expression and the lower lips - what you didn't see is the turn at the corners of the mouth.

Actually I did see that and guessed that is what you were looking at. But come on Jo, MANY people have that expression when they are angry. There is a reason that cartoon caricatures of angry people are drawn like that - like this for example:

.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

Quote

Quote
btw can you please explain exactly why you say Duane being farsighted would have been an advantage to his jump?
fwiw the farsghted people i know would generally need their glasses to write notes with.

You must not wear glass or have been around a lot of people who wear glasses. Far Sighted means tha you can see better than the average person things far-away, but things up close such as reading would need adjustment.

I am near sighted. I can read and work on my computer without glasses - but watching TV across a room or getting behind the wheel of a car requires glasses.

Nature has a way of making temporary adjustments during our lives due to Presmyopia - which is the aging characteristic of the eyes.
What this means is the two stages cross and for a period of time a person might not need glasses for whatever purpose they did in the beginning. I know this is true with near- sightness. I don't know if they have this cross-over being Farsighted.

Regardless - at age 45 he didn't need glasses for driving - just reading and close work. Farsighted guys make good sharp shooters without glasses, but they need glasses to load the darn thing. Duane was actually drove a lot without his glasses, but then if he had to llok at map he needed his glasses - so he used a bifocal
The lower vision was strong - the upper vison needed little corrections even at 68 which is the last time he had his glasses changed. All of his glasses were donated out yrs ago, but I have a copy of his last script.

I know exactly what farsighted means. I'm trying to see why it would be an advantage when jumping (especially at night). Farsightedness would probably be detrimental when you are trying to read an alti.

And if Duane needed his glasses to load a gun, and for reading, wouldn't he have needed them to write a note? My husband is 42 and has acquired the farsightedness that comes with that age - his eyesight was perfect till a couple of years ago. He needs his glasses for both reading AND writing.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

snowmman · December 22, 2008

Quote

In Snow's defense he has I am sure been concentrating on a lot of other things, leads etc as well and not purely on Duane for 13 years.

No I remembered everything Jo had said before about the glasses. It was garbage when she said it, and it's garbage now. And those sunglasses she posted aren't a good match in my view.

I am interested in finding a good match for the sunglasses, circa 1971. If anyone finds pics, post away.

I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them. I wonder if the older Cooper picked the wraparounds because of some self image thing...thinking about him being a risk taker also.
It kind of goes against the image of the middle-aged downtrodden guy in a black suit. So the sunglasses seem interesting. (as does the choice of clip-on vs real tie)

snowmman · December 22, 2008

orange1
you mentioned note writing a couple times, but Cooper never wrote any of the notes, right. He dictated.
the only note was the one he passed, which he recovered.
sluggos site http://n467us.com under facts and myths, has the right details on the note stuff.

Actually I have to keep reminding myself which interactions were with Flo and which were with Tina.

Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

snowmman · December 22, 2008

As an example of myths, people might think of the Cooper glasses as Ray Ban 2030 Predator 8's, that Tommy Lee Jones wore in "Men in Black".

They're not though. And they're not like what Tom Cruise wore in "Risk Business" (Wayfarers)

I went thru the Ray Ban current collection and attached those that I think are close. I haven't done a final pick for what I think are the best match to the glasses in the sketch.

(edit) I attached the '71 sketch with glasses. I think I'm voting for RB2016's as best match? What you think?

Trader Feedback · December 22, 2008

Quote
I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them.

I tried that once Snow, not Oakley Razors but Black Fly's most aggressive sunglasses which were given to me by a friend in the trade. My daughter (then 11) said "Dad, puh-leeeeze, wear some age appropriate shades. Those are embarassing."

Maybe Coop was in a mid life crisis.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Trader Feedback · December 22, 2008

Quote
As an example of myths, people might think of the Cooper glasses as Ray Ban 2030 Predator 8's, that Tommy Lee Jones wore in "Men in Black".

They're not though. And they're not like what Tom Cruise wore in "Risk Business" (Wayfarers)

I went thru the Ray Ban current collection and attached those that I think are close. I haven't done a final pick for what I think are the best match to the glasses in the sketch.

(edit) I attached the '71 sketch with glasses. I think I'm voting for RB2016's as best match? What you think?

The 2016s are a good match Snow, but they have that Ray Ban logo on the side that would have been noted. Maybe he bought some cheap knockoffs. Isn't there a rock song about that? I think it is called "cheap sunglasses." Wish Flo or Tina had noted whether they appeared to have Rx lenses.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Orange1 · December 22, 2008

Quote
orange1
you mentioned note writing a couple times, but Cooper never wrote any of the notes, right. He dictated. the only note was the one he passed, which he recovered. sluggos site http://n467us.com under facts and myths, has the right details on the note stuff.

Actually I have to keep reminding myself which interactions were with Flo and which were with Tina.

Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

My bad. Sluggo's site says

Quote
The only thing Cooper wrote was the original note that said; “Miss I have a bomb, come sit by me.” The rest was dictated by Cooper to Schaffner who then took the demands to the captain.

Seeing as directly below that was the stewardess descriptions I thought I would add that in. Interesting how for example one described both the suit & shoes as brown, and one described both as black. Makes me wonder how reliable nuances in describing complexion would be from them then? Note that Schaffner specifically says he looked like he was of Latin descent.

Quote
Descriptions of Cooper:

Mucklow

"W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see."

Schaffner

"W/M, mid 40's, 6', 170-175, average build, brown eyes, straight black hair medium length and parted on the left side, olive skin, black business suit, white shirt, thin black tie, black overcoat, black shoes, black briefcase, dark framed sunglasses with brown lenses, no scars marks or tattoos, he had a normal calm voice and appeared to be of Latin descent."

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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