Orange1 0 #6251 December 21, 2008 Jo, I think you missed my point. "indian" for exampe is ethnicity. Ethnic background and being "American" are not mutually exclusive, especially in a country which prides itself on the diverse number of countries from which its citizens come. Like I already said, a second generation American for example will be American in accent, lifestyle etc but will have the same physical ethnic characteristics of his parents. I wasn't trying to imply he was foreign based on skin colour - but I was (and still am) trying to figure out exactly what is meant by the skintone. Your comment that the colours come out differently just adds to the (my) confusion. Snow's playing with the 3D images was interesting, if nothing else but because (to my eye) irrespective of the differences in the pictures he showed, they all look like the same guy to me. In other words, if the skintone was slightly out or the eyes were a bit out or whatever - if I knew a guy who basically looked like that, i think would recognise him from an imperfect likeness.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6252 December 21, 2008 Quote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). Jo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? Please give me some leeway here, I can't bear going back through thousands of posts to try figure out which sketch was actually done when.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6253 December 21, 2008 QuoteJo, I think you missed my point. "indian" for exampe is ethnicity. Ethnic background and being "American" are not mutually exclusive, especially in a country which prides itself on the diverse number of countries from which its citizens come. Like I already said, a second generation American for example will be American in accent, lifestyle etc but will have the same physical ethnic characteristics of his parents. I wasn't trying to imply he was foreign based on skin colour - but I was (and still am) trying to figure out exactly what is meant by the skintone. Your comment that the colours come out differently just adds to the (my) confusion. Snow's playing with the 3D images was interesting, if nothing else but because (to my eye) irrespective of the differences in the pictures he showed, they all look like the same guy to me. In other words, if the skintone was slightly out or the eyes were a bit out or whatever - if I knew a guy who basically looked like that, i think would recognise him from an imperfect likeness. WELL SAID ABOUT ETHINICITY ORANGE1 and you're not even USA...although I'm sure the issues are strong in SA too. Yes the 3d images were cool to me, because they made Cooper come alive for me..rather than a dumb flat image...it was like a guy that I could visualize. Sure they may be off a bit. But I liked putting the smile in there. I can make the eyes point in different directions to, up/left, like to the camera. I think the flat face-on images have been out there so long, that people don't think of Cooper has a real guy...the only real guy images are these things like Duane that get pushed out there. Everyone didn't look like Cooper. That's a myth. He may have looked like a "typical" 2nd or 3rd generation american of some european ancestry. But even saying that, cuts out a lot of folks. Throw in the receding hair issue, the height/weight and hair color, maybe eye color, and you're slicing the possiblities down more. The only reason he wasn't found, had to have been cause FBI didn't have the right data on where to look. This stuff about a loner just disappearing...a guy with no traceable skills, is just grasping at straws. It's possible, but it's vastly more likely the FBI had crappy data. Computerization was just starting, barely! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6254 December 21, 2008 Quote Quote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). Quote Jo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is ON the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. A TV program did a composite around 1981 that is referred to as the Shaffner composite...she was not happy with that and I understand because I know the TV programs use what they want to use regardless of if it is right or wrong. None where done after that time. There are some old Rose black and white composite attempts he did in the beginning and up until the release of the ones I have. A lot of it was trial and error in those days - not done by computers. The ones I posted where the ones they decided to use in 1973, but when where they actually used? I understand why they didn't use some of the black and white attempts - because he kept trying to get that mouth (there are 2 of them availablle - as a representation of his art work a ffew yrs ago). With those you can see the smuges and the attempts to get this thing with the mouth right - but it was an action and not a physical characteristic. To draw an image of an action is the most difficult thing an artist can attempt. Well, I just let something out of the BAG, but that is OK because the FBI is never going to release it so I just as well go ahead and let it RIP. Bet Tom was not even privy to this piece of information - and you guys have not been privy to it - I am just too tired to go on fighting for the truth - it has made a very OLD and sick woman out of me. My sister told me today that I was the oldest 68 yr old she knows. Coming from your own sister that really hurts, but I know it is true. Now do any of you understand why I have shouted 'COVER-up" note I didn't say covert........There are reason to cover-up things without it being covert. I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6255 December 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for the Composites themselves What they are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: [b]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new one that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. yes, these are what I thought were the "'81" sketches. If they were made in '73, that's news to me. Jo, can you scan the backs of the composites? I already have better versions of the '81 composites. I think you posted them before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6256 December 21, 2008 I'm still playing with these, because I don't like the result in comparison as much yet. I've noticed one thing. The '81 composite has very different eyebrows. The '71 composite are higher, more rounded. The '81 composite are more sinister, coming down to the nose faster/closer. You don't see as much of the inside below the eyebrow in the eye..towards the nose The lines under the eyes are more defined The chin is pointier, but that may be an issue i have to fix. Cheeks are rounder noses and eyes are about the same lips are the same. face is slightly wider at the cheeks. But the eyebrows are the biggest thing that jumps out. I wonder if the '81 sketch over dramatized them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6257 December 21, 2008 Quote Everyone didn't look like Cooper. That's a myth. He may have looked like a "typical" 2nd or 3rd generation american of some european ancestry. But even saying that, cuts out a lot of folks. Throw in the receding hair issue, the height/weight and hair color, maybe eye color, and you're slicing the possiblities down more. I think it's a myth that there is an "everyone looked like Cooper" myth. I seem to recall the discussion was that many people dressed like Cooper was dressed at that time.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6258 December 21, 2008 Quote QuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: ]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6259 December 21, 2008 Quote QuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: ]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6260 December 21, 2008 Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6261 December 21, 2008 ORANGE ALL OF YOUR POSTS ARE MULTIPLYING ALL BY THEMSELVES. DELETE, DELETE, DELETE...WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT SPACE.YOUR ANSWER for yr is ON the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: with the date of: JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. A TV program did a composite around 1981 that is referred to as the Shaffner composite...she was not happy with that and I understand because I know the TV programs use what they want to use regardless of if it is right or wrong. None where done after that time. There are some old Rose black and white composite attempts he did in the beginning and up until the release of the ones I have. A lot of it was trial and error in those days - not done by computers. The ones I posted where the ones they decided to use in 1973, but when where they actually used? I understand why they didn't use some of the black and white attempts - because he kept trying to get that mouth (there are 2 of them availablle - as a representation of his art work a ffew yrs ago). With those you can see the smuges and the attempts to get this thing with the mouth right - but it was an action and not a physical characteristic. To draw an image of an action is the most difficult thing an artist can attempt. Well, I just let something out of the BAG, but that is OK because the FBI is never going to release it so I just as well go ahead and let it RIP. Bet Tom was not even privy to this piece of information - and you guys have not been privy to it - I am just too tired to go on fighting for the truth - it has made a very OLD and sick woman out of me. My sister told me today that I was the oldest 68 yr old she knows. Coming from your own sister that really hurts, but I know it is true. Now do any of you understand why I have shouted 'COVER-up" note I didn't say covert........There are reasons to cover-up things without it being covert. I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Copyright©2008 by Jo WeberCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6262 December 21, 2008 Quote Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. lol (it's morning here and i am drinking tea btw...) sorry - my browser hung and i guessed pressing "refresh" wasn't the right course of action btw Jo: Quote See what happens when you guys are nice to me. See what happens when you take questions as questions and not personal attacks? Let's continue engaging in constructive debate... or at least try!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6263 December 21, 2008 are you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6264 December 21, 2008 Quote Jo, can you scan the backs of the composites? I already have better versions of the '81 composites. I think you posted them before. Before they were scanned separately - I scanned them both together to show the difference and variance in skin color. These scans are not as good as the old ones - but it was for different purpose.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6265 December 21, 2008 Quoteare you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic? No. What I am saying is that the artist was trying to depict a action or expression that Cooper made with his mouth the very same action/expression Duane did when he was aggravated. Although Cooper was not nasty he was letting them know that he meant business and that he was NOT happy with the way things where going ... Best expressed by a specific facial action. Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. We can Credit Safecrack for this photo.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6266 December 21, 2008 Quote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6267 December 21, 2008 orange1 said Quote Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion. I looked in the newspapers, and in 1974 they were still publishing the 71 sketch. So I don't know why the other one wasn't distributed if it was done in 73. I'll have to find when it was first distributed. Is the theory it was first distributed in 1981? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6268 December 21, 2008 Quote I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Hi Jo. You didn't stumble on Dan Cooper. Yes it would have been better if Duane didn't say anything. Yes you can't go on and no one is going to help you. That's a good thing! Everyone here likes you anyhow. 377 always reminds us to! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6269 December 21, 2008 QuoteOrange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person. Yes the backs need to be secret. Yes nothing you post on this site will help. Yes it will never be done in person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6270 December 21, 2008 QuoteQuote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people. Orange1 you remind me of something. The FBI or someone did a supposed "age-advanced" sketch. I think that's bogus and unhelpful. People are going to be comparing against photographs from say '65 to '75. When Cooper did the hijack, he could easily have been 20 lbs lighter than a normal weight a photograph might have showed in "better" times (assuming Cooper did this when he was stressed for some reason) I say 20 lbs because if Cooper was 180, then a 200 lb picture of him is not out of the question? But for a 6' guy, a 160 lb picture is too light. So if anything, Cooper was heavier in photos, or the same. But not lighter. So I always thought that a range of sketches show show cooper with different hair, maybe without the tie, maybe with up to 20 lbs more weight. And smiling! no one grimaces at friends taking a photo. Back then most photos would be black and white, so the color probably isn't as important? And if cooper didn't wear glasses, then the sunglass photo isn't useful. A focus on the description of the wraparound shades would be nice. I think most people think the shades where like those eventually used in Blues Brothers, and Risky Business. i.e. RayBan 2140's. (recently reintroduced for sale!) But they're not. They're also not the standard mil issue vietnam sunglasses from the era. I checked? those are MIL-S-475D's. (photo attached) I attached ray ban 2140s (wayfarers) also The Wayfarers were very big. Iconic. See wiki: but that's not what Cooper wore. (see sketches) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray-Ban_Wayfarer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6271 December 21, 2008 Okay on this set, I was thinking Danny Boy was getting all emo on the flight, and that maybe the '81 eyebrows were really the artist trying to capture a sadness idea. So I started with the 71 sketch again, and turned the eyes a bit (not staring straight ahead), dialed in some sadness on the eyebrows (affects the inner eyebrow, coming down more towards the nose, like the '81 sketch?) ..drooped the left eye a bit...added some weight, a little more forehead than I had before, some more ear...a slightly different camera angle, skin tone a little different, and then did some genetic mutations with whatever dinosaur DNA I could find laying around. (Damn, have the Velociraptors got out again last night?) Oh, and dialed it so he's saying "ee-e.." like in "Cheeeeese" attached. (edit) I added a copy of it with the 71 fbi sketch on the right, so you can visually determine whether you think it's reasonable, based on that sketch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6272 December 21, 2008 snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6273 December 21, 2008 Quote snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! ya, I suspect a fair number of DZ.com'ers would like some more hair too? :) Hair is hard. Also hair is with the paid software, which is expensive. I think it's hard to computerize hair, with the current state of the art? I was thinking I could just airbrush in some black to get the hair lines we like, but then again, there could be so much variance in Cooper in any pictures that might be around...I'm not sure if it's worth it? I think today, our use of sketches is different than 1971. Today, people aren't going to remember what someone looked like in '71. So a sketch is only useful in terms of comparing it to photographs in the '65-'75 time frame, I think. The variation in the top hair in the '71 sketch compared to the '81 sketch, makes me think that Cooper's hair was not well defined, other than receding, black, and maybe the sideburns. (edit) I found another program I'm going to try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6274 December 21, 2008 I still wonder if Cooper looked much like the sketch. The part that says yes is that several eyewitnesses concurred. The part that says maybe not (to me at least) is the long history of unreliable eyewitness testimony. I saw many cases where the police sketch looked very little like the guy who was proven (through fingerprints) to be the real culprit. We are putting so much value on the sketch and it may have little resemblance to Cooper. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6275 December 21, 2008 The nice thing about software, is that it has to reduce vagaries to black and white statements, in order to accomplish anything. I was intrigued by these comments in the help. Got me wondering. Was Cooper "attractive" ??? What say girls? Was it just the hairline that works against him? or ??? # Creating Attractive Faces. * Everyone has personal preferences, but on average, the most attractive faces are those that are close to the average. * Psychologists have found that the most attractive female faces are those which look like the average 17 year-old female, in which the degree of femininity is exaggerated by about 25%. * To achieve this in FaceGen Modeller, select the race you want, slide the age to 17, move the gender just past 'female' and bring the caricature values as close to average as you think necessary. * The most attractive male faces are those which look like the average 25 year-old male, but with a slight amount (5%) of femininity ! * Attractive faces are also more symmetric, so reduce the amount of asymmetry - but leave a little to keep the face looking real. 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snowmman 3 #6256 December 21, 2008 I'm still playing with these, because I don't like the result in comparison as much yet. I've noticed one thing. The '81 composite has very different eyebrows. The '71 composite are higher, more rounded. The '81 composite are more sinister, coming down to the nose faster/closer. You don't see as much of the inside below the eyebrow in the eye..towards the nose The lines under the eyes are more defined The chin is pointier, but that may be an issue i have to fix. Cheeks are rounder noses and eyes are about the same lips are the same. face is slightly wider at the cheeks. But the eyebrows are the biggest thing that jumps out. I wonder if the '81 sketch over dramatized them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6257 December 21, 2008 Quote Everyone didn't look like Cooper. That's a myth. He may have looked like a "typical" 2nd or 3rd generation american of some european ancestry. But even saying that, cuts out a lot of folks. Throw in the receding hair issue, the height/weight and hair color, maybe eye color, and you're slicing the possiblities down more. I think it's a myth that there is an "everyone looked like Cooper" myth. I seem to recall the discussion was that many people dressed like Cooper was dressed at that time.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6258 December 21, 2008 Quote QuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: ]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6259 December 21, 2008 Quote QuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: ]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6260 December 21, 2008 Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6261 December 21, 2008 ORANGE ALL OF YOUR POSTS ARE MULTIPLYING ALL BY THEMSELVES. DELETE, DELETE, DELETE...WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT SPACE.YOUR ANSWER for yr is ON the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: with the date of: JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. A TV program did a composite around 1981 that is referred to as the Shaffner composite...she was not happy with that and I understand because I know the TV programs use what they want to use regardless of if it is right or wrong. None where done after that time. There are some old Rose black and white composite attempts he did in the beginning and up until the release of the ones I have. A lot of it was trial and error in those days - not done by computers. The ones I posted where the ones they decided to use in 1973, but when where they actually used? I understand why they didn't use some of the black and white attempts - because he kept trying to get that mouth (there are 2 of them availablle - as a representation of his art work a ffew yrs ago). With those you can see the smuges and the attempts to get this thing with the mouth right - but it was an action and not a physical characteristic. To draw an image of an action is the most difficult thing an artist can attempt. Well, I just let something out of the BAG, but that is OK because the FBI is never going to release it so I just as well go ahead and let it RIP. Bet Tom was not even privy to this piece of information - and you guys have not been privy to it - I am just too tired to go on fighting for the truth - it has made a very OLD and sick woman out of me. My sister told me today that I was the oldest 68 yr old she knows. Coming from your own sister that really hurts, but I know it is true. Now do any of you understand why I have shouted 'COVER-up" note I didn't say covert........There are reasons to cover-up things without it being covert. I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Copyright©2008 by Jo WeberCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6262 December 21, 2008 Quote Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. lol (it's morning here and i am drinking tea btw...) sorry - my browser hung and i guessed pressing "refresh" wasn't the right course of action btw Jo: Quote See what happens when you guys are nice to me. See what happens when you take questions as questions and not personal attacks? Let's continue engaging in constructive debate... or at least try!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6263 December 21, 2008 are you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6264 December 21, 2008 Quote Jo, can you scan the backs of the composites? I already have better versions of the '81 composites. I think you posted them before. Before they were scanned separately - I scanned them both together to show the difference and variance in skin color. These scans are not as good as the old ones - but it was for different purpose.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6265 December 21, 2008 Quoteare you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic? No. What I am saying is that the artist was trying to depict a action or expression that Cooper made with his mouth the very same action/expression Duane did when he was aggravated. Although Cooper was not nasty he was letting them know that he meant business and that he was NOT happy with the way things where going ... Best expressed by a specific facial action. Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. We can Credit Safecrack for this photo.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6266 December 21, 2008 Quote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6267 December 21, 2008 orange1 said Quote Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion. I looked in the newspapers, and in 1974 they were still publishing the 71 sketch. So I don't know why the other one wasn't distributed if it was done in 73. I'll have to find when it was first distributed. Is the theory it was first distributed in 1981? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6268 December 21, 2008 Quote I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Hi Jo. You didn't stumble on Dan Cooper. Yes it would have been better if Duane didn't say anything. Yes you can't go on and no one is going to help you. That's a good thing! Everyone here likes you anyhow. 377 always reminds us to! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6269 December 21, 2008 QuoteOrange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person. Yes the backs need to be secret. Yes nothing you post on this site will help. Yes it will never be done in person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6270 December 21, 2008 QuoteQuote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people. Orange1 you remind me of something. The FBI or someone did a supposed "age-advanced" sketch. I think that's bogus and unhelpful. People are going to be comparing against photographs from say '65 to '75. When Cooper did the hijack, he could easily have been 20 lbs lighter than a normal weight a photograph might have showed in "better" times (assuming Cooper did this when he was stressed for some reason) I say 20 lbs because if Cooper was 180, then a 200 lb picture of him is not out of the question? But for a 6' guy, a 160 lb picture is too light. So if anything, Cooper was heavier in photos, or the same. But not lighter. So I always thought that a range of sketches show show cooper with different hair, maybe without the tie, maybe with up to 20 lbs more weight. And smiling! no one grimaces at friends taking a photo. Back then most photos would be black and white, so the color probably isn't as important? And if cooper didn't wear glasses, then the sunglass photo isn't useful. A focus on the description of the wraparound shades would be nice. I think most people think the shades where like those eventually used in Blues Brothers, and Risky Business. i.e. RayBan 2140's. (recently reintroduced for sale!) But they're not. They're also not the standard mil issue vietnam sunglasses from the era. I checked? those are MIL-S-475D's. (photo attached) I attached ray ban 2140s (wayfarers) also The Wayfarers were very big. Iconic. See wiki: but that's not what Cooper wore. (see sketches) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray-Ban_Wayfarer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6271 December 21, 2008 Okay on this set, I was thinking Danny Boy was getting all emo on the flight, and that maybe the '81 eyebrows were really the artist trying to capture a sadness idea. So I started with the 71 sketch again, and turned the eyes a bit (not staring straight ahead), dialed in some sadness on the eyebrows (affects the inner eyebrow, coming down more towards the nose, like the '81 sketch?) ..drooped the left eye a bit...added some weight, a little more forehead than I had before, some more ear...a slightly different camera angle, skin tone a little different, and then did some genetic mutations with whatever dinosaur DNA I could find laying around. (Damn, have the Velociraptors got out again last night?) Oh, and dialed it so he's saying "ee-e.." like in "Cheeeeese" attached. (edit) I added a copy of it with the 71 fbi sketch on the right, so you can visually determine whether you think it's reasonable, based on that sketch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6272 December 21, 2008 snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6273 December 21, 2008 Quote snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! ya, I suspect a fair number of DZ.com'ers would like some more hair too? :) Hair is hard. Also hair is with the paid software, which is expensive. I think it's hard to computerize hair, with the current state of the art? I was thinking I could just airbrush in some black to get the hair lines we like, but then again, there could be so much variance in Cooper in any pictures that might be around...I'm not sure if it's worth it? I think today, our use of sketches is different than 1971. Today, people aren't going to remember what someone looked like in '71. So a sketch is only useful in terms of comparing it to photographs in the '65-'75 time frame, I think. The variation in the top hair in the '71 sketch compared to the '81 sketch, makes me think that Cooper's hair was not well defined, other than receding, black, and maybe the sideburns. (edit) I found another program I'm going to try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #6274 December 21, 2008 I still wonder if Cooper looked much like the sketch. The part that says yes is that several eyewitnesses concurred. The part that says maybe not (to me at least) is the long history of unreliable eyewitness testimony. I saw many cases where the police sketch looked very little like the guy who was proven (through fingerprints) to be the real culprit. We are putting so much value on the sketch and it may have little resemblance to Cooper. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites snowmman 3 #6275 December 21, 2008 The nice thing about software, is that it has to reduce vagaries to black and white statements, in order to accomplish anything. I was intrigued by these comments in the help. Got me wondering. Was Cooper "attractive" ??? What say girls? Was it just the hairline that works against him? or ??? # Creating Attractive Faces. * Everyone has personal preferences, but on average, the most attractive faces are those that are close to the average. * Psychologists have found that the most attractive female faces are those which look like the average 17 year-old female, in which the degree of femininity is exaggerated by about 25%. * To achieve this in FaceGen Modeller, select the race you want, slide the age to 17, move the gender just past 'female' and bring the caricature values as close to average as you think necessary. * The most attractive male faces are those which look like the average 25 year-old male, but with a slight amount (5%) of femininity ! * Attractive faces are also more symmetric, so reduce the amount of asymmetry - but leave a little to keep the face looking real. 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Orange1 0 #6259 December 21, 2008 Quote QuoteQuote Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). QuoteJo, a question (not an attack, a question, please take it the right way). Are these the same ones that you posted later that appear to be marked "81"? Snow, are these what you referred to as the 1981 sketches? YOUR ANSWER for yr is the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: ]JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6260 December 21, 2008 Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6261 December 21, 2008 ORANGE ALL OF YOUR POSTS ARE MULTIPLYING ALL BY THEMSELVES. DELETE, DELETE, DELETE...WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT SPACE.YOUR ANSWER for yr is ON the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: with the date of: JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. A TV program did a composite around 1981 that is referred to as the Shaffner composite...she was not happy with that and I understand because I know the TV programs use what they want to use regardless of if it is right or wrong. None where done after that time. There are some old Rose black and white composite attempts he did in the beginning and up until the release of the ones I have. A lot of it was trial and error in those days - not done by computers. The ones I posted where the ones they decided to use in 1973, but when where they actually used? I understand why they didn't use some of the black and white attempts - because he kept trying to get that mouth (there are 2 of them availablle - as a representation of his art work a ffew yrs ago). With those you can see the smuges and the attempts to get this thing with the mouth right - but it was an action and not a physical characteristic. To draw an image of an action is the most difficult thing an artist can attempt. Well, I just let something out of the BAG, but that is OK because the FBI is never going to release it so I just as well go ahead and let it RIP. Bet Tom was not even privy to this piece of information - and you guys have not been privy to it - I am just too tired to go on fighting for the truth - it has made a very OLD and sick woman out of me. My sister told me today that I was the oldest 68 yr old she knows. Coming from your own sister that really hurts, but I know it is true. Now do any of you understand why I have shouted 'COVER-up" note I didn't say covert........There are reasons to cover-up things without it being covert. I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Copyright©2008 by Jo WeberCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6262 December 21, 2008 Quote Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. lol (it's morning here and i am drinking tea btw...) sorry - my browser hung and i guessed pressing "refresh" wasn't the right course of action btw Jo: Quote See what happens when you guys are nice to me. See what happens when you take questions as questions and not personal attacks? Let's continue engaging in constructive debate... or at least try!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #6263 December 21, 2008 are you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #6264 December 21, 2008 Quote Jo, can you scan the backs of the composites? I already have better versions of the '81 composites. I think you posted them before. Before they were scanned separately - I scanned them both together to show the difference and variance in skin color. These scans are not as good as the old ones - but it was for different purpose.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6260 December 21, 2008 Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6261 December 21, 2008 ORANGE ALL OF YOUR POSTS ARE MULTIPLYING ALL BY THEMSELVES. DELETE, DELETE, DELETE...WE ARE GOING TO RUN OUT SPACE.YOUR ANSWER for yr is ON the Composites themselves What others (including CARR) are doing is misinterpreting the code on the front of the pictures - the back of these composites I posted are STAMPED: with the date of: JAN 2, 1973 --- Just a little something the FBI forgot when they sent these to me. For yrs they have made it appear these where redo's in 81 - NOT so. I have the PROOF they are the new ones that Rose did about 2 yrs later, but the FBI kept right on using the old composite (Bing Crosby look-a-like) and the new composites where all but ignored and not released to the public for a very long time.,,maybe why they ended up with a file name ending in 81. See what happens when you guys are nice to me. It would be interesting to know exactly when these particular photos where actually released and used by the public. A TV program did a composite around 1981 that is referred to as the Shaffner composite...she was not happy with that and I understand because I know the TV programs use what they want to use regardless of if it is right or wrong. None where done after that time. There are some old Rose black and white composite attempts he did in the beginning and up until the release of the ones I have. A lot of it was trial and error in those days - not done by computers. The ones I posted where the ones they decided to use in 1973, but when where they actually used? I understand why they didn't use some of the black and white attempts - because he kept trying to get that mouth (there are 2 of them availablle - as a representation of his art work a ffew yrs ago). With those you can see the smuges and the attempts to get this thing with the mouth right - but it was an action and not a physical characteristic. To draw an image of an action is the most difficult thing an artist can attempt. Well, I just let something out of the BAG, but that is OK because the FBI is never going to release it so I just as well go ahead and let it RIP. Bet Tom was not even privy to this piece of information - and you guys have not been privy to it - I am just too tired to go on fighting for the truth - it has made a very OLD and sick woman out of me. My sister told me today that I was the oldest 68 yr old she knows. Coming from your own sister that really hurts, but I know it is true. Now do any of you understand why I have shouted 'COVER-up" note I didn't say covert........There are reasons to cover-up things without it being covert. I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Copyright©2008 by Jo WeberCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6262 December 21, 2008 Quote Orange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. lol (it's morning here and i am drinking tea btw...) sorry - my browser hung and i guessed pressing "refresh" wasn't the right course of action btw Jo: Quote See what happens when you guys are nice to me. See what happens when you take questions as questions and not personal attacks? Let's continue engaging in constructive debate... or at least try!Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6263 December 21, 2008 are you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6264 December 21, 2008 Quote Jo, can you scan the backs of the composites? I already have better versions of the '81 composites. I think you posted them before. Before they were scanned separately - I scanned them both together to show the difference and variance in skin color. These scans are not as good as the old ones - but it was for different purpose.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #6265 December 21, 2008 Quoteare you saying both Duane and Cooper had some kind of tic? No. What I am saying is that the artist was trying to depict a action or expression that Cooper made with his mouth the very same action/expression Duane did when he was aggravated. Although Cooper was not nasty he was letting them know that he meant business and that he was NOT happy with the way things where going ... Best expressed by a specific facial action. Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. We can Credit Safecrack for this photo.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6266 December 21, 2008 Quote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6267 December 21, 2008 orange1 said Quote Jan 1973 is a lot sooner than 1981 for sure, but it is still not "right after the crime" and would have had seen a lot of press coverage etc in the interim. So, better by a huge degree but not ideal. In my opinion. I looked in the newspapers, and in 1974 they were still publishing the 71 sketch. So I don't know why the other one wasn't distributed if it was done in 73. I'll have to find when it was first distributed. Is the theory it was first distributed in 1981? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6268 December 21, 2008 Quote I can't keep on fighting the battle. I can't go on without some help from someplace or someone. I wish Duane had never told me he was Dan Cooper and I wish I had never STUMBLED onto who Dan Cooper was. Hi Jo. You didn't stumble on Dan Cooper. Yes it would have been better if Duane didn't say anything. Yes you can't go on and no one is going to help you. That's a good thing! Everyone here likes you anyhow. 377 always reminds us to! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6269 December 21, 2008 QuoteOrange go delete some of those posts - one of them repeated itself 9 times - what are u drinking tonight. You are the one who was nice in asking about the composites and yet Snowmman wants me to scan the backs - I will scan the backs for a private individual - but I can't see where on a site that is going to help - someone else but me needs to see and document this - that can only be done in person. Yes the backs need to be secret. Yes nothing you post on this site will help. Yes it will never be done in person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6270 December 21, 2008 QuoteQuote Look at the old Rose composite and the Shaffner composite and a prison photo of Duane on intake in 1960. He was not very happy - the lip comparisons of those 2 old Composites with the mouth of Duane 11 yrs before. Jo, to be honest - these look like 3 different sets of lips to me. I can see some resemblance between the 2nd and 3rd, but the 2nd is significantly wider (differently proportioned) than the 3rd. If you showed me this with no background at all, I would be inclined to say they belong to 3 different people. Orange1 you remind me of something. The FBI or someone did a supposed "age-advanced" sketch. I think that's bogus and unhelpful. People are going to be comparing against photographs from say '65 to '75. When Cooper did the hijack, he could easily have been 20 lbs lighter than a normal weight a photograph might have showed in "better" times (assuming Cooper did this when he was stressed for some reason) I say 20 lbs because if Cooper was 180, then a 200 lb picture of him is not out of the question? But for a 6' guy, a 160 lb picture is too light. So if anything, Cooper was heavier in photos, or the same. But not lighter. So I always thought that a range of sketches show show cooper with different hair, maybe without the tie, maybe with up to 20 lbs more weight. And smiling! no one grimaces at friends taking a photo. Back then most photos would be black and white, so the color probably isn't as important? And if cooper didn't wear glasses, then the sunglass photo isn't useful. A focus on the description of the wraparound shades would be nice. I think most people think the shades where like those eventually used in Blues Brothers, and Risky Business. i.e. RayBan 2140's. (recently reintroduced for sale!) But they're not. They're also not the standard mil issue vietnam sunglasses from the era. I checked? those are MIL-S-475D's. (photo attached) I attached ray ban 2140s (wayfarers) also The Wayfarers were very big. Iconic. See wiki: but that's not what Cooper wore. (see sketches) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray-Ban_Wayfarer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6271 December 21, 2008 Okay on this set, I was thinking Danny Boy was getting all emo on the flight, and that maybe the '81 eyebrows were really the artist trying to capture a sadness idea. So I started with the 71 sketch again, and turned the eyes a bit (not staring straight ahead), dialed in some sadness on the eyebrows (affects the inner eyebrow, coming down more towards the nose, like the '81 sketch?) ..drooped the left eye a bit...added some weight, a little more forehead than I had before, some more ear...a slightly different camera angle, skin tone a little different, and then did some genetic mutations with whatever dinosaur DNA I could find laying around. (Damn, have the Velociraptors got out again last night?) Oh, and dialed it so he's saying "ee-e.." like in "Cheeeeese" attached. (edit) I added a copy of it with the 71 fbi sketch on the right, so you can visually determine whether you think it's reasonable, based on that sketch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #6272 December 21, 2008 snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6273 December 21, 2008 Quote snow, i need some hair!! i feel like i am looking at an extra from Star Trek! ya, I suspect a fair number of DZ.com'ers would like some more hair too? :) Hair is hard. Also hair is with the paid software, which is expensive. I think it's hard to computerize hair, with the current state of the art? I was thinking I could just airbrush in some black to get the hair lines we like, but then again, there could be so much variance in Cooper in any pictures that might be around...I'm not sure if it's worth it? I think today, our use of sketches is different than 1971. Today, people aren't going to remember what someone looked like in '71. So a sketch is only useful in terms of comparing it to photographs in the '65-'75 time frame, I think. The variation in the top hair in the '71 sketch compared to the '81 sketch, makes me think that Cooper's hair was not well defined, other than receding, black, and maybe the sideburns. (edit) I found another program I'm going to try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #6274 December 21, 2008 I still wonder if Cooper looked much like the sketch. The part that says yes is that several eyewitnesses concurred. The part that says maybe not (to me at least) is the long history of unreliable eyewitness testimony. I saw many cases where the police sketch looked very little like the guy who was proven (through fingerprints) to be the real culprit. We are putting so much value on the sketch and it may have little resemblance to Cooper. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowmman 3 #6275 December 21, 2008 The nice thing about software, is that it has to reduce vagaries to black and white statements, in order to accomplish anything. I was intrigued by these comments in the help. Got me wondering. Was Cooper "attractive" ??? What say girls? Was it just the hairline that works against him? or ??? # Creating Attractive Faces. * Everyone has personal preferences, but on average, the most attractive faces are those that are close to the average. * Psychologists have found that the most attractive female faces are those which look like the average 17 year-old female, in which the degree of femininity is exaggerated by about 25%. * To achieve this in FaceGen Modeller, select the race you want, slide the age to 17, move the gender just past 'female' and bring the caricature values as close to average as you think necessary. * The most attractive male faces are those which look like the average 25 year-old male, but with a slight amount (5%) of femininity ! * Attractive faces are also more symmetric, so reduce the amount of asymmetry - but leave a little to keep the face looking real. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
