snowmman 3
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georger 267
Reply> Not brilliant. No solution (yet). But I'll bet
Sluggo is all over this and we should be too.
Weinberg would be a person with opinions worth hearing. He is right at the nexus of people and
many opinions being tossed around. His "B.D.Club"
is either a joke or one hell of a coincidence following 11-24-71.
Weinberg would be worth talking to if only to eliminate options.
Georger
interestingly, Weinberg supposedly studied law before he got into comics?
http://lambiek.net/artists/w/weinberg_albert.htm
Comic creator: Albert Weinberg
Albert Weinberg studied law before he entered the comic world. He started his career as an assistant to Victor Hubinon. Soon he took over Hubinon's series, ...
Photos attached
377 22
I wonder if Cooper commanded the lights out to make it hard for chase planes to get a good visual contact. Do we know if the 727 extinguished its strobes and nav lights?
The info from Boeing given to NWA makes a lot more sense now that we know about the Air America tests. They had info on box drops and (described as a 'deal') info on dropping parachutists.
The FBI must have done some Boeing engineering liaison as a part of their sled test and should have learned about the Air America work.
377
Absolutely. Extremely good point. These guys are like one big country club. Everybody talks to evryone
eventually, UNLESS IT IS SOMETHING PROPRIETARY
and still they talk to each other at all kinds of levels. Only during bidding wars does communication get
shut down. And it goes far beyond the major companies and includes suppliers and subsidiaries.
IT EVEN INVOLVES VENDORS supplying the DOD -
it must! They must ALL be on the same page sooner
or later. It crosses the services (Air Force, Navy, Army, Marines...).
These people are ALL in the same business. Their
concerns are mutual, inevitably. (There are as many experts on an aircraft at Rockwell-Collins
as there are at the manufacturers like Boeing...
these people move back and forth between companies on a regular basis).
This is one of the reasons I dont see Cooper as a
member of the aviation industry. Somebody would have known him, missed him, and talked. And Cooper himself would have used his knowledge
and been far more efficient at his caper. You cannot
hide what you know, inevitably - or what you dont know!
Georger
Georger is right on this, I figure he must have worked in aerospace. When I did, the amount of info that flowed back and forth even between competitors was amazing. It wasn't official always, more word of mouth. One place I worked made HUDs (head up displays) for military aircraft. Given their complexity (holographic projection etc), very high cost and difficulty to manufacture, our guys were astounded to hear that a competitor was making them for Alaska Air 727s. It wasn't more than a few weeks before we had all the technical details. We made nothing for airliners and had no real need to know. It was just intense curiosity among rivals and a well developed tech gossip network. I wouldn't be surprised if soon after the Air America 727 drop tests were done, the Douglas engineers were wondering if the same thing could be done with their DC 9s which also have ventral doors and stairs.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
I had the ticket bought, the suit pressed and was on my way to the airport, when I found this posting, on a DC-9 site that was discussing Cooper and the Christiansen NY Mag article.
From what they're saying, it sounds like you can open the DC-9 as a emergency exit, but were the stairs only deployable from the outside? (if present).
Have I just wasted money on a ticket? Any extra knowledge here?
(edit) I thought there was one jumper from a DC-9 or MD-80..I have to search the thread.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/t-749325.html
n2flying
Oct 23, 07, 8:48 pm
not all of the 9's have aft stairs and the ones that do can only be opened from outside the aircraft.
xfa617
Oct 28, 07, 4:42 pm
>The rear emergency door has been mentioned in
> the FAA safety spiel on every NW DC-9 I've flown
> on. The rear emergency exit is the aft stairway.
Actually, the rear emergency exit on a DC-9 is a slide.
The aft airstairs fold up into the tailcone and are used on the ground for the occasional boarding/deplaning and by the maintenance crews (on the aircraft with a rear pressure bulkhead door, that is). The stairs can only be deployed from the outside, as far as I know.
To use the tailcone exit in emergency mode, a tailcone release handle located just behind bulkhead/plug hatch door is pulled. This jettisons the tip of the tailcone and releases an evacuation slide. Passengers are evacuated along a catwalk in the tailcone leading to the slide. The catwalk covers the aft stairs when the stairs are stowed, and flips up to cover the inside of the tailcone when the stairs are deployed.
From what they're saying, it sounds like you can open the DC-9 as a emergency exit, but were the stairs only deployable from the outside? (if present).
Have I just wasted money on a ticket? Any extra knowledge here?
(edit) I thought there was one jumper from a DC-9 or MD-80..I have to search the thread.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/t-749325.html
n2flying
Oct 23, 07, 8:48 pm
not all of the 9's have aft stairs and the ones that do can only be opened from outside the aircraft.
xfa617
Oct 28, 07, 4:42 pm
>The rear emergency door has been mentioned in
> the FAA safety spiel on every NW DC-9 I've flown
> on. The rear emergency exit is the aft stairway.
Actually, the rear emergency exit on a DC-9 is a slide.
The aft airstairs fold up into the tailcone and are used on the ground for the occasional boarding/deplaning and by the maintenance crews (on the aircraft with a rear pressure bulkhead door, that is). The stairs can only be deployed from the outside, as far as I know.
To use the tailcone exit in emergency mode, a tailcone release handle located just behind bulkhead/plug hatch door is pulled. This jettisons the tip of the tailcone and releases an evacuation slide. Passengers are evacuated along a catwalk in the tailcone leading to the slide. The catwalk covers the aft stairs when the stairs are stowed, and flips up to cover the inside of the tailcone when the stairs are deployed.
snowmman 3
Repost of the only DC-9 jump. (LaPoint)
with some new stuff from "the good book" at
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5VEEhyJHTQC&pg=PA751
Richard Charles LaPoint, 23, an ex-Army paratrooper. Apparently from Revere, MA, or Seabrook NH? Vietnam vet. Was a salesman in Denver.
Hughes Airwest Flight 800.
It was out of DC-9, not a 727. The kid only asked for $50,000. Injured on landing. Must have been a little chilly too. Jumped in cowboy boots. Day jump..about 3:25 PM. Asked for helmet in addition to the two chutes and money.
This cowboy had highway flares wired to a clock.
Plane started in Las Vegas, Landed in Denver, CO to get money and two chutes. Jumped near Akron, CO. Used alias "John Shane".
from the article:
"...mustachioed young man, dressed in cowboy boots and Western clothes...
...
The next report,...came at 1:57 PM when the plane was flying at 12,000 feet near Denver. At that time the hijacker was reported seeking instructions on how to open a seldom-used door at the rear of the plane.
The opening of this door was described as hazardous by the airline spokesman, who said it was situated beneath the two engines mounted on the rear of the fuselage.
The pilot of the hijacked airliner..said later that the man bailed out at 12,000 feet while the plane was traveling 180 miles an hour.
...
Two Air Force F-111 fighter-bombers trailed the hijacked plane....pilots ..spotted the parachute blossoming below the hijacked craft.
...
..officers had tracked the accused hijacker through snow and mud, finding him lying in a field about a half-mile from the nearest road. He complained of an injured leg."
with some new stuff from "the good book" at
http://books.google.com/books?id=M5VEEhyJHTQC&pg=PA751
Richard Charles LaPoint, 23, an ex-Army paratrooper. Apparently from Revere, MA, or Seabrook NH? Vietnam vet. Was a salesman in Denver.
Hughes Airwest Flight 800.
It was out of DC-9, not a 727. The kid only asked for $50,000. Injured on landing. Must have been a little chilly too. Jumped in cowboy boots. Day jump..about 3:25 PM. Asked for helmet in addition to the two chutes and money.
This cowboy had highway flares wired to a clock.
Plane started in Las Vegas, Landed in Denver, CO to get money and two chutes. Jumped near Akron, CO. Used alias "John Shane".
from the article:
"...mustachioed young man, dressed in cowboy boots and Western clothes...
...
The next report,...came at 1:57 PM when the plane was flying at 12,000 feet near Denver. At that time the hijacker was reported seeking instructions on how to open a seldom-used door at the rear of the plane.
The opening of this door was described as hazardous by the airline spokesman, who said it was situated beneath the two engines mounted on the rear of the fuselage.
The pilot of the hijacked airliner..said later that the man bailed out at 12,000 feet while the plane was traveling 180 miles an hour.
...
Two Air Force F-111 fighter-bombers trailed the hijacked plane....pilots ..spotted the parachute blossoming below the hijacked craft.
...
..officers had tracked the accused hijacker through snow and mud, finding him lying in a field about a half-mile from the nearest road. He complained of an injured leg."
Orange1 0
My recollection of the transcript is that he writes further instructions after the passengers have left. Will check later.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
without peeking at google, or searching the thread, (or remembering)...how old do you think the guy in this photo is?
Photo is far too grainy to do that.
My own personal anecdote on age. I turned 40 this year. A number of people I have worked with for over 5 years professed surprise to discover this and put my age between 32 and 35. People make mistakes on guessing age.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
Orange1 0
WHY discuss the same thing over unless there is a purpose to change the persona of Cooper again?
Yes, the notion that The Conspiracy To Change The Persona Of Cooper includes me is much more believable than the simple fact that I think the sketch looks younger than the "accepted" age.
by the way, I don't understand your delicate divorcing of complexion from ethnicity. One says something about the other. If not for that simple fact the world would be a much happier place.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
I thought I'd play with some software that creates 3d images you can morph, from photographs.
I used the 71 FBI sketch for Cooper. It would be better to also have side sketches but oh well.
The program basically extracts info from the picture, to create a 3d image. Then you can morph the image with knobs, for various things. (a lot actually)
I changed the lighting to be a little darker. Added a little more beard stubble. Made the age more like 45. And a key thing: made Cooper smile. Then I used something that randomizes it slightly in 11 different ways to get slightly different versions.
I'm using the free version, so I had to manually smudge out a watermark on their foreheads.
Here's the result of my first attempt. Remember it's from the '71 sketch, not the '81 sketch.
There is skin tone.
No hair on my free software, but maybe that's good cause the hair thing can change easily.
The facial structure should be good though.
Tell me what you think, comparing it to the 71 sketch I just posted above.
I posed facing to the left, since most portrait shots do that..full frontals are not as common?
I used the 71 FBI sketch for Cooper. It would be better to also have side sketches but oh well.
The program basically extracts info from the picture, to create a 3d image. Then you can morph the image with knobs, for various things. (a lot actually)
I changed the lighting to be a little darker. Added a little more beard stubble. Made the age more like 45. And a key thing: made Cooper smile. Then I used something that randomizes it slightly in 11 different ways to get slightly different versions.
I'm using the free version, so I had to manually smudge out a watermark on their foreheads.
Here's the result of my first attempt. Remember it's from the '71 sketch, not the '81 sketch.
There is skin tone.
No hair on my free software, but maybe that's good cause the hair thing can change easily.
The facial structure should be good though.
Tell me what you think, comparing it to the 71 sketch I just posted above.
I posed facing to the left, since most portrait shots do that..full frontals are not as common?
snowmman 3
Ckret had mentioned asymmetries as characteristics in sketches. I was zooming in and looking at the '81 sketch and noticed that the artist created a slight left eye sag. The eyes are not perfectly horizontal.
attached jpg shows what I mean. I just zoomed the '81 sketch.
look at the eyes, relative to the nose and mouth lines.
attached jpg shows what I mean. I just zoomed the '81 sketch.
look at the eyes, relative to the nose and mouth lines.
georger 267
I use Ap PDF Split/Merge
Reply> A free one is PDF Extraction Wizard, works
well and free at:
http://www.rlvision.com/
Georger
Reply> A free one is PDF Extraction Wizard, works
well and free at:
http://www.rlvision.com/
Georger
georger 267
Am I the only person who thinks that the man in the sketch looks significantly younger than 40?
No one knows and many have asked why the FBI continued to use that particular sketch (the Bing Crosby look-alike) when all of the witness - said - that it was all wrong.
Rose did the other sketches that I have referred to and the colored sketches. (All right after the crime - trying to get one all of the witnesses would agree on). The colored sketches are the ones the witnesses agreed were the best, but not quiet right - hence why a TV program tried an attempt at doing a composite yrs later. Rose admitted himself that he could NOT get the mouth right.
When Pasternac relayed his conversation with Rose to me and discussed this "thing" he couldn't get right....I am the one that blurted out what it was and the part of the anatomy involved. Doug didn't get to finish his sentence at that time - and it was with both of us "Oh, My GOD!"
Chills that went down my spine.
"That Tina saw Cooper's EYES is a new thing or a myth.
All of the conversation about Latin, Greek, etc. is just not worth it. The witnesses were trying to describe a color of complexion NOT Coopers origin to the artist and to the individuals collecting the information.
FACT OR MYTH ..the truths and facts are obscured in all of the "conversation" and "books" over the yrs...so many myths that no one knows the difference any more. " Jo Weber
I don't understand your delicate divorcing of complexion from ethnicity. One says something about the other. If not for that simple fact the world would be a much happier place.
I am attaching the scan of the actual un-retouched composites as supplied to me by the FBI. I wanted to scan both of them at the same time and not separately so hopefully you and others will be kinder - right now I am only trying to help you all to help yourself without myths.
What I am saying about the color of the complexion is correct. If some of you guys are so all powerful and know all then go talk to the witnesses (one of those you will have to dig up) and the artist (you will have to dig him up) or find individuals that talked to him over the yrs such as the accounting I have made available to you by Pasternac.
There was never a question of Cooper being "American" - there was absolutely no reason from any witness nor accounting that would indicate Cooper was foreign. The "Latin" or Olive or Indian was simply to describe a color to the FBI and artist. With the range of colors used in the with and without glasses composites I think Rose did a fair representation of the color range. BY the way are any of you artists - if you are, what I am saying is simple to understand and ask anyone you know who does portraits.
Also note in all of your back and forth post no one mentions Indian and that was brought up by the witnesses...as the complexion had something in it that made one of the witnesses say Cooper might be of Indian (American) hertiage.
It is the simple things like this that a dumb-blonde understands. I don't know anything about planes and doors and waterflow and parachutes - I leave all of that up to the forum. I have been trying to make a point of NOT posting unless it is something I can help with - Have you spent 13 yrs of your life in the research?
I also want to NOTE that I posted a picture of a man with a strange outfit in front of the Assembly Hall in 1979 (Salt Lake City) and no one knew what it was...well, go back and look at that photo again and look very closely. All of you military and retired veterans should have picked up on something I even asked you about - the strange triangle on his cuff.
Well, it is called a CHEVRON to designate rank. Chevorns were wore I understand in other arenas of dress wear...to establish rank.
The style screams - but I am still working on that - ROTC recruiter has been suggested. but no one has a picture of ROTC uniforms from that time - frankly I don't think so. This man worked in the Business Administration Office which also housed the Vistors Bureau and Information and Literature in 1979. Some other offices were in the building and it was in a transitional phase at that time.
The Church has hot been able to identify the man or the outfit, but remember I am working with young computer employees who know nothing of 1971 or the history of the administration. I have asked for a lilst of the employees from that time frame but I am getting no where very fast. If someone knows a way to tie this photo down I would appreciate it.
It only helps if we all HELP each other not attack the ideas. What do we all want? To know who Cooper was and I deflect from saying "is" because he would by most probablilites be deceased by now.
I thought the composites scanned more red, at least that is how they appear in my scan program - have no idea how they will appear on the screen. Before with another scanner they were more gold and olive. If anyone know how to get a true scan let me know?
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
Independent of finding Cooper, my goal is that everything that is possible to have been said, has been said.
And everything that's in any way relevant that's accessible from the web, or by easy purchase, has been read.
Are we there yet? Is there anything left? Is there anything people are curious about I could look for, that's potentially findable?
What did people think about the 3d faces I created? I created some from the '81 sketch too. Interested? or ??? I can create a talking animation of the cooper sketch saying the words for the initial note. I did that for fun a while back.
I was looking at the sunglasses, cause I got excited they might have been the classic Rayban Wayfarers (2140). But they're not. They're some kind of plastic wraparound. They're not metal aviator, and they're not 2140's.
I guess some kind of common all plastic wraparound. I don't know how common it was for 45 year old's to wear them then.
Boxers or briefs? I'm not sure we can tell.
Nothing has been said about his belt. Must have had a belt.
No jewelry noticed. That means no wedding band? So he was single/unattached? Most married men would have worn wedding rings back then?
I think it's pretty clear that there's no real way to identify Cooper.
Why would Ckret act like he's going to be able to identify him? seems like the DNA and fingerprints are crap.
Someone is going to confess? Someone is going to find a twenty and say WTF? and turn in the old man?
Are we done yet? I mean if Jo ain't getting on TV no more, what's the point?
And everything that's in any way relevant that's accessible from the web, or by easy purchase, has been read.
Are we there yet? Is there anything left? Is there anything people are curious about I could look for, that's potentially findable?
What did people think about the 3d faces I created? I created some from the '81 sketch too. Interested? or ??? I can create a talking animation of the cooper sketch saying the words for the initial note. I did that for fun a while back.
I was looking at the sunglasses, cause I got excited they might have been the classic Rayban Wayfarers (2140). But they're not. They're some kind of plastic wraparound. They're not metal aviator, and they're not 2140's.
I guess some kind of common all plastic wraparound. I don't know how common it was for 45 year old's to wear them then.
Boxers or briefs? I'm not sure we can tell.
Nothing has been said about his belt. Must have had a belt.
No jewelry noticed. That means no wedding band? So he was single/unattached? Most married men would have worn wedding rings back then?
I think it's pretty clear that there's no real way to identify Cooper.
Why would Ckret act like he's going to be able to identify him? seems like the DNA and fingerprints are crap.
Someone is going to confess? Someone is going to find a twenty and say WTF? and turn in the old man?
Are we done yet? I mean if Jo ain't getting on TV no more, what's the point?
Ckret had mentioned asymmetries as characteristics in sketches. I was zooming in and looking at the '81 sketch and noticed that the artist created a slight left eye sag. The eyes are not perfectly horizontal.
attached jpg shows what I mean. I just zoomed the '81 sketch.
look at the eyes, relative to the nose and mouth lines.
Perhaps you should study the pictures of Duane - you will see that same eye sag. This caught my eye yrs ago and anyone who knew Duane - it became more pronounced as he aged. I have one eye that is sagging because of an auto accident and as I age it is becoming more promient.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
snowmman 3
Ckret had mentioned asymmetries as characteristics in sketches. I was zooming in and looking at the '81 sketch and noticed that the artist created a slight left eye sag. The eyes are not perfectly horizontal.
attached jpg shows what I mean. I just zoomed the '81 sketch.
look at the eyes, relative to the nose and mouth lines.
Perhaps you should study the pictures of Duane - you will see that same eye sag. This caught my eye yrs ago and anyone who knew Duane - it became more pronounced as he aged. I have one eye that is sagging because of an auto accident and as I age it is becoming more promient.
There is absolutely no reason for me to think of Duane. RIP Duane!
I agree. It makes no sense. It makes no more sense than arguing about whether you saw the money bag in the van. You did.
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