DB Cooper

[olemisscub 536]

  On 7/22/2023 at 5:32 AM, Robert99 said:

If I understand the question correctly, you are referring to the bottom flap of the container.  There is a similar flap at the top of the container.  These end flaps are connected to the top and bottom cones that are on the side flaps.  The top end flap (or maybe one of the side flaps) will usually have a metallic "guide" for the ripcord to help keep it from getting bent.

In the pictures shown above, the circular seams as well as the straighter ones are on the side flaps.  There will be similar seams and usually cloth "pockets" on the end flaps to help the rigger get the end flaps completely under the side flaps.

This is just the way the containers are built. 

Thanks for explaining what they are. Why can’t I find an NB-6 container that isn’t OD and doesn’t have a circular seam? 

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/22/2023 at 1:40 PM, olemisscub said:

Thanks for explaining what they are. Why can’t I find an NB-6 container that isn’t OD and doesn’t have a circular seam? 

There are Sage Green NB-6's.. the flap is the design. They were made by different companies using the same design.

Hayden's chute left behind is not an NB-6, it is a P2-B24, hard to find info on it but I found the Pioneer P3 called a civilian chute and also supplied to the military.. 

So, maybe Hayden's P2 was called a civilian chute because it was both civilian and military whereas the other chute was military only.

Hayden would not have known that, which is why he disputed the description in the FBI docs calling it a civilian luxury chute. That suggests the description was falsely attributed to Hayden.

We don't know the model of container used by Cooper other than it was a Pioneer. Cossey called it an NB-6, it could have been, we just can't use Cossey's description to confirm.

Initially, Hayden's chute used by Cooper in documents dated November 25th was described as military Olive Drab w tan cotton civilian type harness.

Cossey interviewed on November 26th described it as an NB-6 Sage Green Nylon container and Sage Green nylon harness. 

IMO, Cossey was describing his back chute he had assumed was taken from Issaquah but was not.

Everybody confused yet..

Cossey's actual Cooper replica chute.. Sage Green

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 264]

  On 7/22/2023 at 3:00 PM, FLYJACK said:

There are Sage Green NB-6's.. the flap is the design. They were made by different companies using the same design.

Hayden's chute left behind is not an NB-6, it is a P2-B24, hard to find info on it but I found the Pioneer P3 called a civilian chute and also supplied to the military.. 

So, maybe Hayden's P2 was called a civilian chute because it was both civilian and military whereas the other chute was military only.

Hayden would not have known that, which is why he disputed the description in the FBI docs calling it a civilian luxury chute. That suggests the description was falsely attributed to Hayden.

We don't know the model of container used by Cooper other than it was a Pioneer. Cossey called it an NB-6, it could have been, we just can't use Cossey's description to confirm.

Initially, Hayden's chute used by Cooper in documents dated November 25th was described as military Olive Drab w tan cotton civilian type harness.

Cossey interviewed on November 26th described it as an NB-6 Sage Green Nylon container and Sage Green nylon harness. 

IMO, Cossey was describing his back chute he had assumed was taken from Issaquah but was not.

Everybody confused yet..

Cossey's actual Cooper replica chute.. Sage Green

 

No chute was ever found. ?  People looked everywhere ... nothing found.

Edited July 22, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/22/2023 at 6:14 PM, georger said:

No chute was ever found. ?  People looked everywhere ... nothing found.

 

No idea what you are referring to.

 

[georger 264]

  On 7/22/2023 at 6:58 PM, FLYJACK said:

 

No idea what you are referring to.

 

no help available . . . try later.

Edited July 22, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/22/2023 at 8:15 PM, georger said:

no help available . . . try later.

Like the DMV..

[Robert99 55]

  On 7/22/2023 at 1:40 PM, olemisscub said:

Thanks for explaining what they are. Why can’t I find an NB-6 container that isn’t OD and doesn’t have a circular seam? 

I have never seen an Olive Drab NB-6 container.  The NB-6 rig that I owned was Sage Green, Sluggo's NB-6 was Sage Green, and ever NB-6 rig that I have seen in real life or pictures was Sage Green.

The circular seam on the bottom of the NB-6 container is just a construction detail and does not have any further significance.

[olemisscub 536]

  On 7/22/2023 at 8:59 PM, Robert99 said:

I have never seen an Olive Drab NB-6 container.  The NB-6 rig that I owned was Sage Green, Sluggo's NB-6 was Sage Green, and ever NB-6 rig that I have seen in real life or pictures was Sage Green.

The circular seam on the bottom of the NB-6 container is just a construction detail and does not have any further significance.

Good heavens, we're playing word games here. I said "some type of olive drab shade" i.e. GREEN. Call it what you will: greenish, sage green, mucus colored, moss, shamrock, seafoam, lime, jade, chartreuse, emerald, baby shit, whatever. The entire point which you have dodged is that I've never seen an NB6 or NB8 type parachute back that was not on the green color wheel; I've never seen any the color of the chute in the museum. If you can show me an example I'd like that. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by olemisscub

[Robert99 55]

  On 7/22/2023 at 11:11 PM, olemisscub said:

Good heavens, we're playing word games here. I said "some type of olive drab shade" i.e. GREEN. Call it what you will: greenish, sage green, mucus colored, moss, shamrock, seafoam, lime, jade, chartreuse, emerald, baby shit, whatever. The entire point which you have dodged is that I've never seen an NB6 or NB8 type parachute back that was not on the green color wheel; I've never seen any the color of the chute in the museum. If you can show me an example I'd like that. 

I thought FlyJack included a picture just above of the Hayden parachute that is in the WSHM.

[olemisscub 536]

  On 7/22/2023 at 11:20 PM, Robert99 said:

I thought FlyJack included a picture just above of the Hayden parachute that is in the WSHM.

That is TAN. You said that chute IS an NB6. Fly says it is NOT and I'm inclined to agree with him. The museum chute more closely resembles the WWII chute than an NB6. 

[Robert99 55]

  On 7/22/2023 at 11:22 PM, olemisscub said:

That is TAN. You said that chute IS an NB6. Fly says it is NOT and I'm inclined to agree with him. The museum chute more closely resembles the WWII chute than an NB6. 

I have ALWAYS claimed that the museum chute is NOT an NB-6.  I am not sure what FlyJack is claiming about that chute at this point.

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/22/2023 at 11:31 PM, Robert99 said:

I have ALWAYS claimed that the museum chute is NOT an NB-6.  I am not sure what FlyJack is claiming about that chute at this point.

True,, R99 has always said the WSHM is not an NB-6.. He claims it is a 26' container with a 28' canopy.. it isn't.

 

It is a P2...  it is printed on it. The p2 is early 1940's and only comes in a B24,, The p2-B-24 is a 24' container originally with a 24' silk chute.. The card indicates it had a 26' canopy since Cossey packed it in May 1971.

The reason the container colours are important is because the initial description of Hayden's other chute, the one Cooper used differed from Cossey's description.

Initially, Hayden's chute used by Cooper in documents dated November 25th was described as military Olive Drab w tan cotton civilian type harness.

Cossey interviewed on November 26th described it as an NB-6 Sage Green Nylon container and Sage Green nylon harness. 

IMO, Cossey was describing his NB-6 back chute that he thought was taken from Issaquah.

 

Confused yet...  who's on first.

I never said this case would be easy..

Edited July 23, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 536]

  On 7/22/2023 at 11:31 PM, Robert99 said:

I have ALWAYS claimed that the museum chute is NOT an NB-6.  I am not sure what FlyJack is claiming about that chute at this point.

Oh, my bad. Guess we're all talking in circles here. 

[olemisscub 536]

Fred Catalano had some amazing hair in high school 

[Robert99 55]

  On 7/23/2023 at 12:15 AM, FLYJACK said:

True,, R99 has always said the WSHM is not an NB-6.. He claims it is a 26' container with a 28' canopy.. it isn't.

 

It is a P2...  it is printed on it. The p2 is early 1940's and only comes in a B24,, The p2-B-24 is a 24' container originally with a 24' silk chute.. The card indicates it had a 26' canopy since Cossey packed it in May 1971.

The reason the container colours are important is because the initial description of Hayden's other chute, the one Cooper used differed from Cossey's description.

Initially, Hayden's chute used by Cooper in documents dated November 25th was described as military Olive Drab w tan cotton civilian type harness.

Cossey interviewed on November 26th described it as an NB-6 Sage Green Nylon container and Sage Green nylon harness. 

IMO, Cossey was describing his NB-6 back chute that he thought was taken from Issaquah.

 

Confused yet...  who's on first.

I never said this case would be easy..

Actually, I think the museum parachute is a 28-foot canopy in a 28-foot container.

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/23/2023 at 3:06 AM, Robert99 said:

Actually, I think the museum parachute is a 28-foot canopy in a 28-foot container.

It isn't, it is a p2, it is written on the container. Those are only 24'..

 

[olemisscub 536]

So why do both Hayden and Cossey say that the tan was 26 and green was 28? That’s what confuses me about all this. Also, if you’re saying the packing card is wrong for the museum chute then you’re saying we can’t trust that Cooper jumped with a 24 foot either. Either both packing cards are wrong or both are right. I don’t see one being wrong and one being right.

[FLYJACK 768]

Hayden disagreed with the chute descriptions in the FBI files and said he never talked to the FBI... 

Further, Norman emphatically declares that he never spoke directly to the FBI during the parachute delivery nor subsequent investigation, yet, the Bureau’s document claims that their detailed parachute information comes from Norman.

Hayden didn't talk to the FBI, he talked to Harrison and Halstad.

From Bruce Smith interview.. with Norman and Barry.

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

 Harrison called Hayden, but the latter says that he “was too busy” to deliver the chutes himself directly, so he called a taxi and  put his two back parachutes into the cab.  He gave the cabbie the address for Harrison at Northwest Orient operations and a receipt book for NWO to sign in confirmation of their “rental” of Hayden’s chutes. 

Barry says he also had called Norman and advised him that NWO had called him looking for back chutes, and that the matter was “hush-hush” and a “matter of life and death.”  Barry also said that NWO’s Harrison did not mention the DB Cooper skyjacking specifically, but he soon deduced the actual circumstances by listening to the radio.

“This is a luxury chute?” Norman sighed when I read the FBI document to him, clearly refuting this aspect of the Bureau’s characterization of the “chute not-taken.”

In addition, Barry supports Norman’s claim that as far as they know, both back chutes were identical.  In fact, Norman seemed a bit dismayed about bureaucratic in-accuracies when I read aloud the FBI description of the two back parachutes and their many differences.

 

Since Barry was there with Norman during Bruce's interview, that means the chute info in the FBI files likely came from Harrison and not directly from Hayden.

This summary appears to attribute the chute descriptions to Hayden but he denies the accuracy of the description. Either, it never came from Hayden at all or it was passed though Harrison. It did not go directly from Hayden to the FBI. Since, Hayden disagrees with the description, the description must have come from somebody else.

Edited July 23, 2023 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 536]

Anyone have an idea as to who this suspect was? Sub File 1059. Something to do with Lake Tahoe. I asked Larry and he can't recall. 1062 is LD, 1061 is Kenny, 1060 is Arthur Derham, and 1058 is Lyle Franklin. It's not Barb because she was apparently so insignificant that they never created a Sub File for her. That may be unfair to Barb though because Gossett never received a sub file either. Anyways, the only suspect with a connection to Lake Tahoe is Jack Farmer and he already has a Sub File (No. 986). 

[Robert99 55]

  On 7/23/2023 at 3:15 PM, FLYJACK said:

Hayden disagreed with the chute descriptions in the FBI files and said he never talked to the FBI... 

Further, Norman emphatically declares that he never spoke directly to the FBI during the parachute delivery nor subsequent investigation, yet, the Bureau’s document claims that their detailed parachute information comes from Norman.

Hayden didn't talk to the FBI, he talked to Harrison and Halstad.

From Bruce Smith interview.. with Norman and Barry.

https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/

 Harrison called Hayden, but the latter says that he “was too busy” to deliver the chutes himself directly, so he called a taxi and  put his two back parachutes into the cab.  He gave the cabbie the address for Harrison at Northwest Orient operations and a receipt book for NWO to sign in confirmation of their “rental” of Hayden’s chutes. 

Barry says he also had called Norman and advised him that NWO had called him looking for back chutes, and that the matter was “hush-hush” and a “matter of life and death.”  Barry also said that NWO’s Harrison did not mention the DB Cooper skyjacking specifically, but he soon deduced the actual circumstances by listening to the radio.

“This is a luxury chute?” Norman sighed when I read the FBI document to him, clearly refuting this aspect of the Bureau’s characterization of the “chute not-taken.”

In addition, Barry supports Norman’s claim that as far as they know, both back chutes were identical.  In fact, Norman seemed a bit dismayed about bureaucratic in-accuracies when I read aloud the FBI description of the two back parachutes and their many differences.

 

Since Barry was there with Norman during Bruce's interview, that means the chute info in the FBI files likely came from Harrison and not directly from Hayden.

This summary appears to attribute the chute descriptions to Hayden but he denies the accuracy of the description. Either, it never came from Hayden at all or it was passed though Harrison. It did not go directly from Hayden to the FBI. Since, Hayden disagrees with the description, the description must have come from somebody else.

A couple of take aways from the above.  First, Hayden apparently did use the word "identical" rather than "similar" in describing his two parachutes.

Second, Hayden apparently sent his two parachutes by taxi to someone at Boeing Field (the site of the next CooperCon) rather than directly to Harrison at the NWA terminal at SEATAC.  How Hayden's parachutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC is unclear but was probably by another taxi ride.

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, Robert99 said:

A couple of take aways from the above.  First, Hayden apparently did use the word "identical" rather than "similar" in describing his two parachutes.

Second, Hayden apparently sent his two parachutes by taxi to someone at Boeing Field (the site of the next CooperCon) rather than directly to Harrison at the NWA terminal at SEATAC.  How Hayden's parachutes got from Boeing Field to SEATAC is unclear but was probably by another taxi ride.

Hayden disagreed with the "civilian luxury chute" description so in that context his "identical" comment was referring to them both being military..

The one returned to him was an early 1940's P2,,, old and cheap... It makes sense that he bought the cheapest and minimum emergency chutes for regulations as he never intended to actually use them..

I believe the P2 was both civilian and military... whereas an NB-6 would be military.

Based on "civilian luxury" somebody other than Hayden described the chutes..

But, from who or where did those chute descriptions originate. 

[georger 264]

  On 7/23/2023 at 6:13 PM, FLYJACK said:

Hayden disagreed with the "civilian luxury chute" description so in that context his "identical" comment was referring to them both being military..

The one returned to him was an early 1940's P2,,, old and cheap... It makes sense that he bought the cheapest and minimum emergency chutes for regulations as he never intended to actually use them..

I believe the P2 was both civilian and military... whereas an NB-6 would be military.

Based on "civilian luxury" somebody other than Hayden described the chutes..

But, from who or where did those chute descriptions originate. 

when did Cooper take the tie off and lay it in the seats?  before or after working with the chutes? before or after trying to make a money container ? when he first put on a chute early, or later just before leaving ?

Edited July 23, 2023 by georger

[FLYJACK 768]

  On 7/23/2023 at 5:32 PM, olemisscub said:

Anyone have an idea as to who this suspect was? Sub File 1059. Something to do with Lake Tahoe. I asked Larry and he can't recall. 1062 is LD, 1061 is Kenny, 1060 is Arthur Derham, and 1058 is Lyle Franklin. It's not Barb because she was apparently so insignificant that they never created a Sub File for her. That may be unfair to Barb though because Gossett never received a sub file either. Anyways, the only suspect with a connection to Lake Tahoe is Jack Farmer and he already has a Sub File (No. 986). 

1060 is Lyle Collins Franklin.

1058 is Arthur Durham

[olemisscub 536]

  On 7/23/2023 at 6:28 PM, FLYJACK said:

1060 is Lyle Collins Franklin.

1058 is Arthur Durham

yes, I was reading my spreadsheet wrong. 

[olemisscub 536]

Just now realized that the 1960 card was pulled from the pocket of the museum chute. Good lord, this parachute business is really something else. The whole business from late December of the 1960 being an "integral part of the chute" made me think that the 1960 card was just shoved in the folds of the museum chute. Guess not.