Orange1 0
snowmman 3
georger:
Hi Georger,
No, it was more like I was leaning over the bar and yelling down to Tom K, who was slumped over in his stool, and while I ordered another pint, yelling down to Tom, "Hey Tom...wudda u think?"
(edit) which is a fair question, cause Tom seems to have gone way out on a limb, saying he's sure about the paper bag story being not possible, without providing the detail on why. So if Tom can say that, I'm wondering "what else can Tom say?"
Quote
Reply> You are placing questions on Brian Ingram
he probably cant answer and never could answer.
He was a kid at the time. His playmate with him was only 5!
Its not like the money was found by a forensic team.
Geoger
Hi Georger,
No, it was more like I was leaning over the bar and yelling down to Tom K, who was slumped over in his stool, and while I ordered another pint, yelling down to Tom, "Hey Tom...wudda u think?"
(edit) which is a fair question, cause Tom seems to have gone way out on a limb, saying he's sure about the paper bag story being not possible, without providing the detail on why. So if Tom can say that, I'm wondering "what else can Tom say?"
wolfriverjoe 1,523
Tom,
I know you are planning on publishing the results of all this so you aren't releasing a lot of information.
When and where will it be published? If you can't say at this point, please say that, and then let us know when you can.
The facts in this case are so few, I'm practically drooling over what you have found/will find.
And Steve1-
Bob Sinclair was still around a couple years ago, I met him at our Super King Air Boogie.
He was still driving his green van, following Mullins around.
I know you are planning on publishing the results of all this so you aren't releasing a lot of information.
When and where will it be published? If you can't say at this point, please say that, and then let us know when you can.
The facts in this case are so few, I'm practically drooling over what you have found/will find.
And Steve1-
Bob Sinclair was still around a couple years ago, I met him at our Super King Air Boogie.
He was still driving his green van, following Mullins around.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
TomKaye 1
Quote
But the "ball" idea you mention seems to jive with a "petrified wood" kind of idea.
Could all 3 bundles have been part of this "wad"?
Snow,
We can't tell the original configuration of the three bundles. While Ingram might be able to comment, at this late date, it would have to be taken with a grain of salt. There were all sorts of conflicting stories on the find scenario. So much so that we are discounting any and all descriptions of how they found it except that it was buried in shallow sand and had rubber bands attached. In fact we are trying very hard not to use ANY modern testimony from anyone. Only original information/ testimony from the period in question.
We tentatively hope to get something out by spring/summer but that could easily slip. Experiments in the planning stage now will take at least 1-2 months to execute. I hope you all are not expecting miracles from our research. I really can't comment on what if anything we are finding but I can tell you its not going to end the investigation. Once we publish then we will have a new round of discussion that should keep things busy for a while.
Tom
snowmman 3
thanks for the reply Tom.
Another thing I've been wondering about.
Georger: you mentioned that you rustled up a "dream team"...i.e. plural, to re-examine all the evidence in this case.
Tom seems great.
Who else is on the "dream team" ?? Is there anything else going on?
Another thing I've been wondering about.
Georger: you mentioned that you rustled up a "dream team"...i.e. plural, to re-examine all the evidence in this case.
Tom seems great.
Who else is on the "dream team" ?? Is there anything else going on?
snowmman 3
I was wondering:
Did some dream team contact J.C. Penney and find out if the black tie was distributed world wide for sale?
or was it just U.S. or ???
Based on the label on the Tie, can we be reasonably certain the tie was purchased in the U.S.?
be nice to have the exact wording of the label on the tie,that identified it as J.C. Penney.
Be nice to have some kind of wear test, if possible, to understand how old it might have been, since purchase, at the time Cooper was wearing it.
Hey Tom, you can become a fiber expert! paper, linen, ties, dinosaur bones, paintballs...it's all the same!
example: Is there anything embedded in the fibers of the tie besides DNA?
Has everything been squeezed out of the tie? It's a much better evidence container than the money.
(edit) trivia: The founder of J.C. Penney,
James Cash Penney, died in 1971.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Penney
Did some dream team contact J.C. Penney and find out if the black tie was distributed world wide for sale?
or was it just U.S. or ???
Based on the label on the Tie, can we be reasonably certain the tie was purchased in the U.S.?
be nice to have the exact wording of the label on the tie,that identified it as J.C. Penney.
Be nice to have some kind of wear test, if possible, to understand how old it might have been, since purchase, at the time Cooper was wearing it.
Hey Tom, you can become a fiber expert! paper, linen, ties, dinosaur bones, paintballs...it's all the same!
example: Is there anything embedded in the fibers of the tie besides DNA?
Has everything been squeezed out of the tie? It's a much better evidence container than the money.
(edit) trivia: The founder of J.C. Penney,
James Cash Penney, died in 1971.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Penney
TomKaye 1
Dream Team (not)
Metalurgist owns his own lab does failure analysis and legal reporting.
Chemist, grad student at MIT
Scientific Illustrator, Chicago 20 years in scientific publications.
Assisting:
Elemental analysis expert, military black projects
Organic chemist, retired, used to do work for paper industry.
Tom
Metalurgist owns his own lab does failure analysis and legal reporting.
Chemist, grad student at MIT
Scientific Illustrator, Chicago 20 years in scientific publications.
Assisting:
Elemental analysis expert, military black projects
Organic chemist, retired, used to do work for paper industry.
Tom
TomKaye 1
Quote
Has everything been squeezed out of the tie? It's a much better evidence container than the money.
We don't have the tie and haven't given it a thought at this point. I don't think it is better evidence since you would be looking for human types of clues and its been handled by everyone for the last 37 years.
Tom
377 22
Tom,
Thanks for the update and sharing of your prelim. test schedules. Those of us (like me) with short attention spans will just have to be patient.
I am wondering whether your tests can answer the basic question as to the truthfulness of the Ingram's account of the money find circumstances? I am not sure it can. If your tests indicate that the money shows signs of very recent non natural burial at the Tena Bar site, it does not say who buried it.
I guess if you can show that it was never buried at Tena Bar, then we might assume that the entire find story was fabricated, but I think the kid's testimony is believeable. I just keep thinking that the kid was subtly led to the dig site. Just a nagging hunch.
Who ever thought you could find pieces of Mars sitting on top of ice in the Antarctic, but it is true. The Tena Bar money find , as unlilkely as it seems, could have happened just as reported, at least from what we know now. You may know different.
Waiting patiently (with great effort),
377
Thanks for the update and sharing of your prelim. test schedules. Those of us (like me) with short attention spans will just have to be patient.
I am wondering whether your tests can answer the basic question as to the truthfulness of the Ingram's account of the money find circumstances? I am not sure it can. If your tests indicate that the money shows signs of very recent non natural burial at the Tena Bar site, it does not say who buried it.
I guess if you can show that it was never buried at Tena Bar, then we might assume that the entire find story was fabricated, but I think the kid's testimony is believeable. I just keep thinking that the kid was subtly led to the dig site. Just a nagging hunch.
Who ever thought you could find pieces of Mars sitting on top of ice in the Antarctic, but it is true. The Tena Bar money find , as unlilkely as it seems, could have happened just as reported, at least from what we know now. You may know different.
Waiting patiently (with great effort),
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Doesn't mean anything, but I like trivial details.
I was searching news, and saw this recent reminisce about someone ordering something from mail order while the father was in Vietnam.
Family Tree Bears Wealth of Christmas History
NewsBlaze, CA - Dec 9, 2008
The tree was originally purchased from a JC Penney's mail order catalogue by the family and shipped to his father during his second tour in Vietnam. ...
I was searching news, and saw this recent reminisce about someone ordering something from mail order while the father was in Vietnam.
Family Tree Bears Wealth of Christmas History
NewsBlaze, CA - Dec 9, 2008
The tree was originally purchased from a JC Penney's mail order catalogue by the family and shipped to his father during his second tour in Vietnam. ...
snowmman 3
QuoteQuote
Has everything been squeezed out of the tie? It's a much better evidence container than the money.
We don't have the tie and haven't given it a thought at this point. I don't think it is better evidence since you would be looking for human types of clues and its been handled by everyone for the last 37 years.
Tom
Why would you be looking for human clues.
I said fiber.
You like sand, are you sure there are no fiber clues on the tie? Or sand clues? or ??
Surprised you would just say "nothing possible" without knowing or looking.
(edit) Note the money has been handled just as much as the tie. So your argument doesn't make sense.
snowmman 3
be interesting, trivia wise, to know if clip on ties were sold at the Post Exchanges in 1971.
I guess one could say it's obvious the tie could come from anywhere.
But I think even if so, we should agree on what "anywhere" means. Sometimes it seems like we don't have common views of possibilities.
I'm really curious about any wear or age-dating of the tie.
Was it brand-new, for instance? Was it ever washed? Did it still have sizing from the original manufacture?
Who knows what could be told from the tie.
I guess one could say it's obvious the tie could come from anywhere.
But I think even if so, we should agree on what "anywhere" means. Sometimes it seems like we don't have common views of possibilities.
I'm really curious about any wear or age-dating of the tie.
Was it brand-new, for instance? Was it ever washed? Did it still have sizing from the original manufacture?
Who knows what could be told from the tie.
Orange1 0
QuoteAlso on Laos, some interesting photos and then a detailed description on "The CIA’s Airlines: Logistic Air Support of the War in Laos 1954 to 1975"
http://laoveterans.8k.com/photo2.html
Talk of ties got me thinking about the "dress" arguments again. Have a look at the photos in the above link. I suspect they are all posed (strategically placed girls in short shorts and skirts) but the guys are all dressed relatively smartly (by today's standards). Some have ties but not all.
I still maintain that from what we know of the era, Cooper's dress (suit and tie) was "normal". (I am assuming the Northwest in November was somewhat cooler than Laos when these pictures were taken..)
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
the tie has a metal clip.
maybe fatigue analysis of clip could tell how often it had been used.
I would think the clip would bend over time as you clip it on.
The tie, has a single metal hook, right? it's not like the ones i had as a kid, with two plastic arms sticking under the collar.
Tom's got a metal guy, right?
maybe fatigue analysis of clip could tell how often it had been used.
I would think the clip would bend over time as you clip it on.
The tie, has a single metal hook, right? it's not like the ones i had as a kid, with two plastic arms sticking under the collar.
Tom's got a metal guy, right?
snowmman 3
I love this pic from the url Orange1 posted. I think I posted this pic before.
Black Helis, babes in short pants, sunglasses.
Can't blame them for thinking life was good!
Come on Georger, loosen up, you gotta admit, doesn't this pic get you thinking about the path not taken?
Black Helis, babes in short pants, sunglasses.
Can't blame them for thinking life was good!
Come on Georger, loosen up, you gotta admit, doesn't this pic get you thinking about the path not taken?
377 22
I see three Cooper suspects in that photo!
Damn, I didnt know the black helos had stews. Looks like she was recruited from PSA. Remember their uniforms? They could go from the plane to their second gig at a strip club and not have to change outfits.
I just reread the Ten Commandments and no, not the Bill Clinton translation. There is some wiggle room about impure thoughts, especially if she is not your brother's wife.
Come on Georger. Admit to some purely hypothetical carnal thinking. Jimmy Carter did... sort of.
377
Damn, I didnt know the black helos had stews. Looks like she was recruited from PSA. Remember their uniforms? They could go from the plane to their second gig at a strip club and not have to change outfits.
I just reread the Ten Commandments and no, not the Bill Clinton translation. There is some wiggle room about impure thoughts, especially if she is not your brother's wife.
Come on Georger. Admit to some purely hypothetical carnal thinking. Jimmy Carter did... sort of.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
TomKaye 1
Quote
Surprised you would just say "nothing possible" without knowing or looking.
(edit) Note the money has been handled just as much as the tie. So your argument doesn't make sense.
Now Snow, (wiggles finger back and forth) don't quote me as saying "nothing possible", I didn't say that. The money underwent degradation that hopefully can be pinpointed as to cause and effect. This we hope will expand on the story of what happened AFTER Cooper jumped. Anything human or fiber on the tie would have to connect back to a particular piece of evidence like the parachute etc. At the moment I can't imagine what that would be, but we hope to have a look at the tie at some point in the future.
Tom
snowmman 3
from
http://www.bradnewsham.com/articles/staring_down.shtml
I liked that he had a clip-on tie, and a J.C. Penney sport coat.
Hey $2.50/hr...gotta stretch it!
And night clerks never die, they become cab drivers..or teach English in China!
Staring Down Greatness
Special to The Washington Post
In the summer of 1969, when I was perhaps the youngest CIA agent in history (I was 17), and Jack Valenti was beginning his long tenure presiding over the American Motion Picture Association, the two of us almost brought our fragile government grinding to a halt.
Let's back up. "Agent" might actually be a stretch.
Officially I was a $2.50-an-hour clerk-typist cataloguing films in the film library at CIA headquarters in Langley. The CIA kept a large vault of films and shipped them to its spooks worldwide who might be looking for some non-lethal way to pass the time between covert activities.
Much of my summer was passed in screening-room reveries in the company of a white-haired, crew-cut film library lifer named Marco. (Certain names have been changed in the interest of national security, and because I can't remember half of them.) Marco kept a stash of some of the better movies (I remember one much-rewound scene involving the young Angie Dickinson and no clothing worth mentioning), and most of my summer-hire pals thought I had life pretty good.
..
A week later I was rewinding the seduction scene from "The Graduate" when Marco banged open the screening room door.
"Newsham, they want you down the hall!" Then, after a significant silence he added, "Some real brass."
I pulled on my J.C. Penney sports coat, affixed my CIA badge and my clip-on tie. Crew-cut men in colorless suits crowded around an oval table in the conference room, smoking cigarettes and sizing me up. Mr. Beatie looked nervous.
"These men would like to ask you some questions, Bradley. Can I get you a Coke or anything?"
"No, thanks."
I would take mine like a man.
...
I'm 48 years old now. Jack Valenti is 78. For more than 30 years he's been head of the MPAA. For 15 years I've been a San Francisco cab driver. Last Sunday night I parked near a bar at 18th and Castro, found a chair and sat back to watch the motion picture industry's biggest night, and to salute the most powerful man I ever threw a scare into.
http://www.bradnewsham.com/articles/staring_down.shtml
I liked that he had a clip-on tie, and a J.C. Penney sport coat.
Hey $2.50/hr...gotta stretch it!
And night clerks never die, they become cab drivers..or teach English in China!
Staring Down Greatness
Special to The Washington Post
In the summer of 1969, when I was perhaps the youngest CIA agent in history (I was 17), and Jack Valenti was beginning his long tenure presiding over the American Motion Picture Association, the two of us almost brought our fragile government grinding to a halt.
Let's back up. "Agent" might actually be a stretch.
Officially I was a $2.50-an-hour clerk-typist cataloguing films in the film library at CIA headquarters in Langley. The CIA kept a large vault of films and shipped them to its spooks worldwide who might be looking for some non-lethal way to pass the time between covert activities.
Much of my summer was passed in screening-room reveries in the company of a white-haired, crew-cut film library lifer named Marco. (Certain names have been changed in the interest of national security, and because I can't remember half of them.) Marco kept a stash of some of the better movies (I remember one much-rewound scene involving the young Angie Dickinson and no clothing worth mentioning), and most of my summer-hire pals thought I had life pretty good.
..
A week later I was rewinding the seduction scene from "The Graduate" when Marco banged open the screening room door.
"Newsham, they want you down the hall!" Then, after a significant silence he added, "Some real brass."
I pulled on my J.C. Penney sports coat, affixed my CIA badge and my clip-on tie. Crew-cut men in colorless suits crowded around an oval table in the conference room, smoking cigarettes and sizing me up. Mr. Beatie looked nervous.
"These men would like to ask you some questions, Bradley. Can I get you a Coke or anything?"
"No, thanks."
I would take mine like a man.
...
I'm 48 years old now. Jack Valenti is 78. For more than 30 years he's been head of the MPAA. For 15 years I've been a San Francisco cab driver. Last Sunday night I parked near a bar at 18th and Castro, found a chair and sat back to watch the motion picture industry's biggest night, and to salute the most powerful man I ever threw a scare into.
snowmman 3
QuoteQuote
Surprised you would just say "nothing possible" without knowing or looking.
(edit) Note the money has been handled just as much as the tie. So your argument doesn't make sense.
Now Snow, (wiggles finger back and forth) don't quote me as saying "nothing possible", I didn't say that. The money underwent degradation that hopefully can be pinpointed as to cause and effect. This we hope will expand on the story of what happened AFTER Cooper jumped. Anything human or fiber on the tie would have to connect back to a particular piece of evidence like the parachute etc. At the moment I can't imagine what that would be, but we hope to have a look at the tie at some point in the future.
Tom
(wiggle back)
so you're confident there's no degradation that's measurable on the tie? You don't care if the tie was new or old? Do you think Cooper wore that tie a lot? Does it matter?
I mentioned two things that could be tested. Are you saying "Not worth it, money is more important"
hey, whose case is this anyhow! Oh that's right, it's Quade's!
"Troi dat oi!! Co mot nguoi My!"
"Thiet? O dau?"
"O do. DO!! Coi khong?
"Ong. Ong la nguoi My."
Remember the 1800's. Mexican bandits would cross the border,
rob a place, and disappear across the border again. No pursuit.
A Canadian takes some vacation time. Drives across the
border. Just doing some fishing. Hijacks the plane, has plenty
of time to get out and back to Canada.
No pursuit. The FBI is looking in the US.
You can't get caught if no one is looking for you.
As far as missing persons, how would US investigators hear
about a Canadian citizen who disappeared?
Why are people so convinced that it was someone from the US?
Even so, many people went to Canada to avoid the military.
rob a place, and disappear across the border again. No pursuit.
A Canadian takes some vacation time. Drives across the
border. Just doing some fishing. Hijacks the plane, has plenty
of time to get out and back to Canada.
No pursuit. The FBI is looking in the US.
You can't get caught if no one is looking for you.
As far as missing persons, how would US investigators hear
about a Canadian citizen who disappeared?
Why are people so convinced that it was someone from the US?
Even so, many people went to Canada to avoid the military.
snowmman 3
I've been doing a lot of researching around Vietnam, and every once in a while I find something unique that I think someone else here might think is cool (it's just amazing what's on the web)
Safe Conduct Pass. Attached.
"During the war, South Vietnam government has created many "Chieu Hoi" (Open Arms) programs, opening a chance for the Communist-disinclined troop to lay down their guns and cooperate with the local authorities. Safe-conduct Pass was part of the Chieu Hoi program in which the leaflets would be spread (usually by airplane) out across the Communist controlled areas."
Safe Conduct Pass. Attached.
"During the war, South Vietnam government has created many "Chieu Hoi" (Open Arms) programs, opening a chance for the Communist-disinclined troop to lay down their guns and cooperate with the local authorities. Safe-conduct Pass was part of the Chieu Hoi program in which the leaflets would be spread (usually by airplane) out across the Communist controlled areas."
georger 264
QuoteQuoteQuoteDuane threw into the Columbia at the old bridge in down town Vancouver. .
Jo,
I can tell you absolutely, positively and with COMPLETE authority, that the bills on Tena Bar had nothing to do with Duane and the bag your talking about.
I am listening to all your evidence carefully and trying objectively to see if any of it fits into our investigation. In this particular case the question is answered. Now this is my test for you to see if in fact you really are accepting of new facts that prove Duane innocent or guilty. If you don't accept my answer, and continue to believe the bag is related to the money, it will color your other evidence from my perspective.
Thanks,
Tom
I do not know what was in that bag (I can only speculate), but it was a very odd thing to do. The fact that he turned in his resignation the day after the article appeared in the paper in Ft. Collins Co. about the money being found seems suspect (I was unaware of that until some else made a connection between the dates recently).
I know he disappeared twice on that trip for several hours at a time. One time was while we were at the Dalles - he was gone for several hours and came back soiled. The next time was in Seattle all afternoon.
All of the places he took me to on the Columbia below and across from the airport tower. The places he took me to in Washington, to Lake LaCames and the hill above that and the farm across the lake, In Wahougual to a cememtary and then up the Washougal river to a trailer park - he told me about some kind of mining or caves further around that road but we turned around and went back to a road I now know was Coffey Rd and after a while we went North toward Battleground Lake to where the 2 towers and the shed used to be and the VOR thing...then South again toward I-5. On this trip he pointed out 2 airports or strips with one of those being on the road to I-5.
In Seattle he took me to the back side of the airport - it was supposed to be a short cut (but with the map I realized it was not near our destination). Later he disappears for an afternoon coming back all giddy (he had not been drinking). The next day we head back to Vancouver and you know the about the site West of the airport tower on he Vancouver side and then big tank (some kind of business on the Columbia) getting in the car from there was the first time I had noticed the bag - West of Winterly Park (I did not see the park on that trip with him). Then to the bridge - right behind what used to be the Red Lion Motel.
I am open to how the money got in the Columbia - but the things he told me and the things he showed me -that is not open to discussion at all. Those are things I know. What his little trips meant and what he did on that trip are my recalling the trip. They are strange events for a man who supposedly never lived in WA or worked there.
Why would he tell me about burying something behind the shed where the tower used to be - in the middle of the woods on an unpaved and unused logging road?
I need someone to help me add it up - help me understand why he knew this area. He used to know some guy around the Mt. Hood area from a statement he made on that trip, but that we were not going there. This was after he had been gone all that morning at the Dalles...this is around the time we crossed over to the Wa side.
Reply> We have gone over this before. Many times.
Nothing in the story has changed since its last
recitation, except for Weber giving two slightly
different accounts. One Weber version cites the
unknown contents being in a paper bag - another
Weber version describes unknown contents "wrapped
in paper ... and I leaned over and got a rubber band
for Duane towrap around the paper...".
The location (Weber cites) was previously identified as Appel Park. Maps were provided showing that park, the nearest mile marker, all in relation to Tina Bar.
The time of year and flow levels were noted, according to Jo's report and USGS flow data for
the period Weber cites as being 3 months prior to
the discovery of money at Tina Bar.
Float times and flow rates established by SafecrackingPLF and USCE Hydraulic Engineer
Jeffrey Bradely were taken into account.
Conclusion: Given the size and description of the
package with unknown contents provided by Weber
it is 'undeterminable' if an unknown package could
have flowed to Tina Bar (mile marker 97) from
Appel park on the (approximate) date provided
by Weber. (Without knowing the contents of such
a package, float ad flow rates are undeterminable).
Maps were provided showing the general flow characteristics from Appel Park to Tina Bar. It is
not a straight flow path between the two points,
as Weber insists it is.
All objects entering the Columbia River from the
area of Appel Park, or any other area, do not
automatically flow to Tina Bar as a single fact of
hydrology. If that were the case, debris would have
collected at mile marker 97 for eons and the Columbia would stop at mile marker 97 and there would be a large damned lake there, instead of a unimpeded flowing river.
Weber asserts her package may have consisted of
$27,000 dollars of the original $200,000 ransom,
leaving $173,000 stored in a bucket by Duane.
Aside from the fact Weber's account is a late edition
of earlier versions she told which did not mention
actual dollar amounts or a bucket, Weber;s revision
amounts to 1,350 twenty dollar bills.
The Ingram find documented approx $6000 is known bills, with perhaps ?$6000 more in fragments
or unaccounted for money? Nobody knows. This does not equate with the $27,000 Weber is contending.
A $27,000 stack of $20 dollar bills is approx 12.5"
high. If split, the bundle would be approx 6"x5.25". Common rubber band(s) which Weber said she supplied (one) will not fit around a bundle 12.5x2.5
or a split bundle approx 6x5.25". (Dimensions being
used do not account for additional paper Weber says
was also around the bundles).
.............. the analysis was stopped here ....
others can complete it if they like.
Georger
377 22
Great job Georger!
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Then again, kids of that age love digging in the mud. Things do happen by pure chance sometimes!
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