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Cooper is a deranged person. Not a high functioning
engineer or tech type. He may be somebody on the
periphery of experience with the 727 and its history
and use. His real skills are on the parachuting end
by his performance and witness statements.. and that
experience may not be too great.
Georger
my profile says nothing about mental health or tech expertise:
local connections
Boeing info connections (needn't be a Boeing engr)
skydiver/smoke jumper/paratrooper
and maybe SE Asia experience.
Georger, what facts make you so sure Cooper was "deranged"? What evidence do you have on this?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 264
I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight.
Many soldiers went through Alaska on their way to Nam. I was in the Anchorage airport in 1969. There were soldier in jungle fatiques, everywhere you looked. I often wondered how many of them made it back....
Yours is an interesting line of thought. Alaska comes up in the transcripts as a possible direction Cooper
wants to go ... Scott and others mention it briefly.
Who came up with 'Alaska'? Why was 'Alaska'?
Because all hijackers want to go to AK? Because AK offers wilderness for a jump? What brought Alaska
into the mix?
Was it a military connection somebody thought
applied and if so why? Or is it just one more
stereotype being applied by authorities who dont
know Cooper at all?
Cooper then asks for Mexico City! The total opposite
of Alaska in direction. (kind of funny or is it?).
Alaska seems to fit in a larger pattern of stereotyping with Cooper the real person doing almost the exact opposite of what "authorities" think Cooper is going to do, would do, or should do. It is almost as if these people were stuck in a rut of assumptions none of which turn out to be true, vs. simply riding with events
and dealing with an actual hijacker in real time.
This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach ....... Rataczack in contrast just keeps working at his job saying little (that we know) but in the end Rat is the one with the most accurate testimony along with Tina.
This whole event is full of 'Alaskas' which turn out
to be wrong projections from corporate institutional
stereotypical thinking and projecting.
If you follow the same pattern, the real Cooper probably had nothing to do with Alaska, and Alaska
must represent the very opposite of who Cooper was
and what he was about... (just like they did figure
out after the fact his bomb was a fake, but too late to matter).
Did Cooper do something or say something to make them think Alaska as their first choice for his destination?
Georger
georger 264
what did you say georger?
Im saying we have discussed wigs and grease and shoe polish on hair etc many times already - its very old ground. Ckret posted on this specifically... excpt for
the sunglasses Cooper was not disguised.
377 22
I didn't know skydiving ever took place in San Jose other than possible air show demos. I started jumping in 68 in the Bay Area (Calif Parachute Club, Livermore CA) and heard old timers mention all the old DZs. Never heard SJ mentioned once.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Ah Alaska! home of the man-camp and the $10 burger.
The little airports in Alaska are crazy. Almost like trains in third world countries, where strange people are carrying and checking in all sorts of strange things, weapons, massive tools, etc.
Pre 9/11, I remember a sign on on the ticket counter warning that you couldn't carry those wicked seal skinning knives on board. Box cutters? that ain't a knife, this is a knife!
The little airports in Alaska are crazy. Almost like trains in third world countries, where strange people are carrying and checking in all sorts of strange things, weapons, massive tools, etc.
Pre 9/11, I remember a sign on on the ticket counter warning that you couldn't carry those wicked seal skinning knives on board. Box cutters? that ain't a knife, this is a knife!
snowmman 3
georger says:
"This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach "
remember how the shrink proposed that Cooper was going to have Tina jump with him and the bomb left behind to go off.
Was the shrink insane?
How in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull?
There is no way anyone on that plane would have jumped unless the plane had lost both wings and was spiralling into the ground.
Why did anyone even listen to that shrink? He sounds deranged.
"This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach "
remember how the shrink proposed that Cooper was going to have Tina jump with him and the bomb left behind to go off.
Was the shrink insane?
How in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull?
There is no way anyone on that plane would have jumped unless the plane had lost both wings and was spiralling into the ground.
Why did anyone even listen to that shrink? He sounds deranged.
snowmman 3
this was just something random at http://www.nlhs.com/guests-05.htm
that seemed fun to note
From: Ed xxx of MN
20 Dec 12005
I'm sure that all of us who have served at Navy Lakehurst are grateful for the preservation of it's history. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed to establishing the "NLHS," and to the creation of this most interesting web site. Over 90+ years Navy Lakehurst was host to many tenant commands.
One of the earliest and possibly longest, but none more colorful, was the Parachute Rigger School. Established in 1924 by Chief Petty Officers Alva Starr and Lyman Ford, the school was set up in a small shed attached to hanger #1.
Precision workmanship was demanded, emphasized by requiring students to make a free- fall parachute jump with a chute they had personally packed. No other school in the Navy has had a more challenging performance test.
The first parachute jumps made at Lakehurst were from bi-wing aircraft, with the jumpers standing between and at the outer edges of the wings - since there was room for only the pilot in the tiny cockpit.
This was followed by having the students parachute from the open gondolas of early LTA aircraft, and the procedure used may have been where Buster Keaton got ideas for some of his daring stunts. Rope ladders were dropped over the side of the carriage, and the students were required to lower themselves to the very end of the ladder, grasp the ripcord in one hand while hanging on to the ladder with the other-then let go and pull the ripcord immediately. Presumably, the intent of this procedure was to allow the parachutist to drop below the slip stream of the propellers, which could foul his canopy while opening.
A three second free-fall from the gondola would have accomplished the same thing! However, the prevailig knowledge of parachuting at the time, was that a person would black-out in free fall.
Until multi-place acircraft became available, the Lakehurst LTA community provided the means for the Parachute Rigger students to make their graduation jump.
On June 28th 1961, as a parting farewell to those SilverGiants of the sky,several Instructors at the PR School re-enacted the graduation jump as it was first done - - minus the rope ladders. These fearless Riggers leap into the force of zero forward air speed, undaunted by seagulls hovering nearby, and wrote a final chapter to an aviation brotherhood established so long ago. My Parachute Log Book indicates we jumped from ZPG-2's - KE-5, at an altitude of 3,000 feet over the "Jump Circle" in the woods west of the main part of the base.
Unfortunately, my memory fails to bring forth the names of all the jumpers that day, except for Chuck Seymour (PRC, Ret - a NJ guy) who slipped out the rear hatch just before me.With great pride, Chuck and I lay claim to being "The Last Two Great Blimp Jumpers."
that seemed fun to note
From: Ed xxx of MN
20 Dec 12005
I'm sure that all of us who have served at Navy Lakehurst are grateful for the preservation of it's history. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed to establishing the "NLHS," and to the creation of this most interesting web site. Over 90+ years Navy Lakehurst was host to many tenant commands.
One of the earliest and possibly longest, but none more colorful, was the Parachute Rigger School. Established in 1924 by Chief Petty Officers Alva Starr and Lyman Ford, the school was set up in a small shed attached to hanger #1.
Precision workmanship was demanded, emphasized by requiring students to make a free- fall parachute jump with a chute they had personally packed. No other school in the Navy has had a more challenging performance test.
The first parachute jumps made at Lakehurst were from bi-wing aircraft, with the jumpers standing between and at the outer edges of the wings - since there was room for only the pilot in the tiny cockpit.
This was followed by having the students parachute from the open gondolas of early LTA aircraft, and the procedure used may have been where Buster Keaton got ideas for some of his daring stunts. Rope ladders were dropped over the side of the carriage, and the students were required to lower themselves to the very end of the ladder, grasp the ripcord in one hand while hanging on to the ladder with the other-then let go and pull the ripcord immediately. Presumably, the intent of this procedure was to allow the parachutist to drop below the slip stream of the propellers, which could foul his canopy while opening.
A three second free-fall from the gondola would have accomplished the same thing! However, the prevailig knowledge of parachuting at the time, was that a person would black-out in free fall.
Until multi-place acircraft became available, the Lakehurst LTA community provided the means for the Parachute Rigger students to make their graduation jump.
On June 28th 1961, as a parting farewell to those SilverGiants of the sky,several Instructors at the PR School re-enacted the graduation jump as it was first done - - minus the rope ladders. These fearless Riggers leap into the force of zero forward air speed, undaunted by seagulls hovering nearby, and wrote a final chapter to an aviation brotherhood established so long ago. My Parachute Log Book indicates we jumped from ZPG-2's - KE-5, at an altitude of 3,000 feet over the "Jump Circle" in the woods west of the main part of the base.
Unfortunately, my memory fails to bring forth the names of all the jumpers that day, except for Chuck Seymour (PRC, Ret - a NJ guy) who slipped out the rear hatch just before me.With great pride, Chuck and I lay claim to being "The Last Two Great Blimp Jumpers."
377 22
How in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull?
Hey, who ever thought Patty Hearst would join her SLA kidnappers in robbing the Hibernia Bank in SF?
Maybe Cooper's "deranged" mind was hoping for an accelerated Stockholm Syndrome situation?
I can see him thinking: "I really dig Tina. We'll parachute into the wilderness together, build a hut and start a new life."
Georger, haven't you had similar thoughts when on a long flight and being served your fourth bourbon by a gorgous flight attendant?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
Did Cooper do something or say something to make them think Alaska as their first choice for his destination?
there were a couple of hijacks that went north to canada that year?
here's a kid: 2/26/71 who decided on Vancouver went they told him Cuba was too far.
snowmman 3
Georger, haven't you had similar thoughts when on a long flight and being served your fourth bourbon by a gorgous flight attendant?
377
:)
yeah, and at DZ.com how come it seems like the stories always end with a successful coupling. Man, you skydivers are good!
377 22
We now have a real DIRIGIBLE (not a Blimp) operating tourist flights out of Moffett Field in Sunnyvale CA. Local skydivers are already hatching schemes to jump it (no hijacking involved, just lots of money). I think rides (about an hour) are $495 per person.
Want to read a really weird blimp story?
http://weirdworldnews.blogspot.com/2005/09/crash-of-navy-blimp-l-8-mystery.html
I once paid $350 to jump out of a B 24 bomber. How deranged is that?
377
Want to read a really weird blimp story?
http://weirdworldnews.blogspot.com/2005/09/crash-of-navy-blimp-l-8-mystery.html
I once paid $350 to jump out of a B 24 bomber. How deranged is that?
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
Used to be that just being an ordinary skydiver got women interested. Nowdays its like: "sigh, pause, yawn... so do you BASE JUMP?"
Those base jumpers really ruined the market.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
November 4, 1970 news article with photo (poor) of Mary.
Mary Woods, jumping up in Fairbanks, AK. over 500 jumps by then? (she was jumping for 4 years? 22 years old?)
says they jumped when it was 25 below.
(sorry for the fuzzy article, it was longer than my screen)
Gold Nugget Sky Divers?
There were some other Fairbanks clubs: Fairbanks Skydivers?
Mary Woods, jumping up in Fairbanks, AK. over 500 jumps by then? (she was jumping for 4 years? 22 years old?)
says they jumped when it was 25 below.
(sorry for the fuzzy article, it was longer than my screen)
Gold Nugget Sky Divers?
There were some other Fairbanks clubs: Fairbanks Skydivers?
377 22
Wasnt there some story about Cooper actually being a woman? Maybe we are looking at the wrong gender.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
this is just more background showing that analyzing Vietnam purely from the military enlisted or officer viewpoint is incomplete. I've touched on the USAID/CIA salad bowl before.
http://www.historynet.com/cords-winning-hearts-and-minds-in-vietnam.htm/print
CORDS: Winning Hearts and Minds in Vietnam
In May 1967 an organization known as CORDS—Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support—was formed to coordinate the U.S. civil and military pacification programs. A unique hybrid civil-military structure directly under general William C. Westmoreland, the COMUSMACV, CORDS was headed by a civilian, Ambassador Robert W. Komer, who was appointed as Westmoreland’s deputy.
CORDS pulled together all the various U.S. military and civilian agencies involved in the pacification effort, including the State Department, the AID, the USIA and the CIA. U.S. military or civilian province senior advisers were appointed, and CORDS civilian/military advisory teams were dispatched throughout South Vietnam’s 44 provinces and 250 districts.
One such senior adviser was then Lt. Col. Philip Bolté, U.S. Army. Upon graduation from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in October 1950, 2nd Lt. Bolté reported for duty with the 1st Cavalry Division in Korea. That November and December, Bolté participated in the Eighth Army’s retreat from North Korea, where he and his fellow soldiers “went 100 miles north and 200 miles south, for a net loss of 100 miles.” Wounded in action, he was taken to Japan for treatment. Years later, he would tell his soldiers in Vietnam, “If you have a choice to go to a cold war or a hot war, take the hot one!”
Retired from the U.S. Army with the rank of brigadier general, Bolté was interviewed by Al Hemingway in 1994 about his experiences with CORDS.
Vietnam: When did you arrive in Vietnam?
Bolté: In December 1967. I was assigned as a province senior adviser in Quang Tin province, I Corps section of South Vietnam. Tam Ky was the capital.
VN: What were the duties of a province senior adviser?
Bolté: My assignment was to advise the province chief in military operations, pacification efforts and civil affairs, which was virtually everything in that province.
http://www.historynet.com/cords-winning-hearts-and-minds-in-vietnam.htm/print
CORDS: Winning Hearts and Minds in Vietnam
In May 1967 an organization known as CORDS—Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support—was formed to coordinate the U.S. civil and military pacification programs. A unique hybrid civil-military structure directly under general William C. Westmoreland, the COMUSMACV, CORDS was headed by a civilian, Ambassador Robert W. Komer, who was appointed as Westmoreland’s deputy.
CORDS pulled together all the various U.S. military and civilian agencies involved in the pacification effort, including the State Department, the AID, the USIA and the CIA. U.S. military or civilian province senior advisers were appointed, and CORDS civilian/military advisory teams were dispatched throughout South Vietnam’s 44 provinces and 250 districts.
One such senior adviser was then Lt. Col. Philip Bolté, U.S. Army. Upon graduation from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in October 1950, 2nd Lt. Bolté reported for duty with the 1st Cavalry Division in Korea. That November and December, Bolté participated in the Eighth Army’s retreat from North Korea, where he and his fellow soldiers “went 100 miles north and 200 miles south, for a net loss of 100 miles.” Wounded in action, he was taken to Japan for treatment. Years later, he would tell his soldiers in Vietnam, “If you have a choice to go to a cold war or a hot war, take the hot one!”
Retired from the U.S. Army with the rank of brigadier general, Bolté was interviewed by Al Hemingway in 1994 about his experiences with CORDS.
Vietnam: When did you arrive in Vietnam?
Bolté: In December 1967. I was assigned as a province senior adviser in Quang Tin province, I Corps section of South Vietnam. Tam Ky was the capital.
VN: What were the duties of a province senior adviser?
Bolté: My assignment was to advise the province chief in military operations, pacification efforts and civil affairs, which was virtually everything in that province.
georger 264
Cooper did get the stairs down. Nobody was back there to watch him lower them so how do we know for sure how much difficulty he had?
Replt> If you recall, it began with Cooper and Tina
trying to get the stairs out. Door ajar at liftoff. Tina
and Cooper worked on the door for some time
together, originally Cooper wanted Tina to do it
for him and there was discussion (Scott etal) about
whether Tia should be roped in, tethered, or safety
anchored in some way ......................... Have you read the transcripts ?
Georger
How about you Georger? Do you think Cooper gambled that he could jump the 727 or knew for sure that he could, including lowering the stair in flight if necessary?
Broad theorizing and speculation is is OK here in my opinion. What else can we do in the absence of solid evidence as to Cooper's ID?
I am not saying Cooper participated in the Air America drops, but knowing about them would have given him some very valuable info and could have even been the initial spark for the Norjack idea.
What "hard facts" do you think I am failing to acount for?
377
georger 264
Cooper is a deranged person. Not a high functioning
engineer or tech type. He may be somebody on the
periphery of experience with the 727 and its history
and use. His real skills are on the parachuting end
by his performance and witness statements.. and that
experience may not be too great.
Georger
my profile says nothing about mental health or tech expertise:
local connections
Boeing info connections (needn't be a Boeing engr)
skydiver/smoke jumper/paratrooper
and maybe SE Asia experience.
Georger, what facts make you so sure Cooper was "deranged"? What evidence do you have on this?
377
ask Ckret to explain it to you.
In my world people dont hijack aeroplanes with
a fake bomb, even in the '71 era. Fools might. Deranged people might. He said he had a grudge he had been harboring. Then he hijacks an airplane.
What makes you think he isn't deranged? That
he didn't shoot somebody and bailed?
Georger
georger 264
Ah Alaska! home of the man-camp and the $10 burger.
The little airports in Alaska are crazy. Almost like trains in third world countries, where strange people are carrying and checking in all sorts of strange things, weapons, massive tools, etc.
Pre 9/11, I remember a sign on on the ticket counter warning that you couldn't carry those wicked seal skinning knives on board. Box cutters? that ain't a knife, this is a knife!
Reply> I have known a number of AK bush pilots
and all were sane. One was nuts and lost his license,
wound up doing maintenance work in Iowa. But that
means nothing - not a good sample.
Something brought AK up in somebody's corporate mind. Something triggered that speculation (and I
want to know if it was based on something Cooper
did or said that made them jump to AK as a possible
destination). Or, they drew it out of their corporate
heads at random........ all crazy people go to Alaska?
It's these small things that sometimes turn a case
in the middle of chaos.
Georger
georger 264
georger says:
"This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach "
remember how the shrink proposed that Cooper was going to have Tina jump with him and the bomb left behind to go off.
Was the shrink insane?
How in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull?
There is no way anyone on that plane would have jumped unless the plane had lost both wings and was spiralling into the ground.
Why did anyone even listen to that shrink? He sounds deranged.
Sounds out of touch to me also but he had long credentials. Sluggo looked into this. The shrink
either had or went to do a lot of criminal profiling
and became noted for it.
The psychiatrist's evaluation came early. I think it
weighed on Nyrop to tell everyone to cooprate. and
on Scott who was very concerned about the welfare of his passengers and crew. The shrink's advice is based
on what Cooper's notes asked for. The shrink took the
demands at face value, ie more than one chute means
he's going to take a hostage with him.
Maybe Cooper thought his demands would have a large affect. Like is fake bomb.
In another sense the shrink almost has to say something like this. If he says nothing and things
go bad they will say: "Where was the shrink with
sound advice!". Then the shrink's butt is on the line.
Everyone walking a tight rope.
georger 264
No. I always want to get home to my family. My goals are closer to home and things atHow in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull?
Hey, who ever thought Patty Hearst would join her SLA kidnappers in robbing the Hibernia Bank in SF?
Maybe Cooper's "deranged" mind was hoping for an accelerated Stockholm Syndrome situation?
I can see him thinking: "I really dig Tina. We'll parachute into the wilderness together, build a hut and start a new life."
Georger, haven't you had similar thoughts when on a long flight and being served your fourth bourbon by a gorgous flight attendant?
377
hand.
How about you Georger? Do you think Cooper gambled that he could jump the 727 or knew for sure that he could, including lowering the stair in flight if necessary?
Broad theorizing and speculation is is OK here in my opinion. What else can we do in the absence of solid evidence as to Cooper's ID?
I am not saying Cooper participated in the Air America drops, but knowing about them would have given him some very valuable info and could have even been the initial spark for the Norjack idea.
What "hard facts" do you think I am failing to acount for?
377
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