snowmman 3
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Orange1 0
727s and airdrops (I think this is new on this forum, forgive me it it has been posted already)... i can't do a proper C&P of text because the original print quality is bad and it misreads a lot of the letters, but it is about the CIA getting Boeing to increase the ventral exit to improve airdrop capability, though the author notes to his knowledge it was only ever possibly used once for this - but this was in Southeast Asia
see p225 (21) of:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/book1/pdf/ChurchB1_11_Proprietaries.pdf
SKYJACK file!! Database of skyjacks worldwide. 225 US airlines and 391 non-US.
I'll leave it up to someone with Snow's determination to sift through all the data here 
Some interesting stuff including all the types of planes diverted (even little cessnas make it in there!). Looks like there were 92 incidents involving 727s, which made it by far the most popular type of plane to be hijacked - more than double its nearest "competitor", its predecessor the 707. (I'm assuming these numbers at least partly reflect Boeing's market share!) 6 Northwest Orient planes were hijacked.
http://www.library.carleton.ca/ssdata/surveys/doc/iterate-68-77-s-cbk
Pan Am also flew R&R (Rest and Recreation) flights during the Vietnam War. These flights carried American service personnel for R&R leaves in Hong Kong, Tokyo, and other Asian cities.
http://www.geocities.com/paa_clippers/history.htm
This Google bit looked appetizing, about a plane that strayed into Soveit territory while carrying US troops, but you have to register to get the full article...
... while carrying 212 U.S troops to Vietnam This was announced Tuesday by the .... was ordered to leave them be- hind The Northwest Orient Airlines 727 jet ...
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx?type=nlp&search=%22northwest%20orient%22%20727%20vietnam%20-cooper%20-models&img=\\na0041\6797711\54820214_clean.html
As passenger traffic increased with the start of the Vietnam War , Air Viet Nam added aircraft, initially Viscounts, DC-3s, and DC-4s. It eventually obtained more modern aircraft, including Boeing 727s, some of which were obtained from Air France and Pan Am.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Air_Vietnam
Another old Time article from 1967, on Pan Am's commercial and military involvement in Vietnam:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,843485,00.html?iid=digg_share
"The secret war in Laos, and how I got there" (interestingly by someone who got laid off from, and then recalled by, NWA!) Talks about airdrops, but not out of 727s...
http://www.air-america.org/Articles/Erickson_W.shtml
Also on Laos, some interesting photos and then a detailed description on "The CIA’s Airlines: Logistic Air Support of the War in Laos 1954 to 1975"
http://laoveterans.8k.com/photo2.html
Probably not surprisingly, 727s were also used in evacuations at the fall of Saigon & Da Nang. A number of articles mention this.
And also unsurprisingly a number of articles mention Vietnam vets going to work for either Northwest Orient (including pilots) and Boeing after the war.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
good stuff orange1. will sift thru.
You remember when I posted about the attempted hijack
of military jets in vietnam. There were apparently two attempts on c-141's. Now that's bizarre!
here's an actual air force plane history document that mentions the hijack and PVT Georger Hardin. (shots fired, loadmaster shot, plane damaged)
http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/494/831.xml
You remember when I posted about the attempted hijack
of military jets in vietnam. There were apparently two attempts on c-141's. Now that's bizarre!
here's an actual air force plane history document that mentions the hijack and PVT Georger Hardin. (shots fired, loadmaster shot, plane damaged)
http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/494/831.xml
snowmman 3
The news article orange1 had a snippet of is attached.
It's interesting.
I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight.
There's a number of possiblities that were addressed in a document i found.
But Orange1's article, while a DC8, points out something interesting. The flight was enroute from Tacoma to Vietnam (Cam Ranh Bay)
(edit) McChord air base, specifically.
Evidently it was headed for a refuel in Japan, (Yokota?)
So that's interesting. It's unclear how regular these flights were. Maybe Northwest was chartered by military for a bunch of WA <-> Vietnam flights back then?
This was July 3, 1968 in the papers
(attached)
It's interesting.
I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight.
There's a number of possiblities that were addressed in a document i found.
But Orange1's article, while a DC8, points out something interesting. The flight was enroute from Tacoma to Vietnam (Cam Ranh Bay)
(edit) McChord air base, specifically.
Evidently it was headed for a refuel in Japan, (Yokota?)
So that's interesting. It's unclear how regular these flights were. Maybe Northwest was chartered by military for a bunch of WA <-> Vietnam flights back then?
This was July 3, 1968 in the papers
(attached)
Orange1 0
The news article orange1 had a snippet of is attached.
It's interesting.
I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight.
There's a number of possiblities that were addressed in a document i found.
But Orange1's article, while a DC8, points out something interesting. The flight was enroute from Tacoma to Vietnam (Cam Ranh Bay)
(edit) McChord air base, specifically.
Evidently it was headed for a refuel in Japan, (Yokota?)
So that's interesting. It's unclear how regular these flights were. Maybe Northwest was chartered by military for a bunch of WA <-> Vietnam flights back then?
This was July 3, 1968 in the papers
(attached)
Thanks for the full article, Snow.
As alluded to in some of my links, it looks like NWA, Pan Am (and probably others??) were doing at the very least troop transport during the Vietnam war. Maybe some vets can tell us where the main departure points were?
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
snowmman 3
The Church Committee produced a report investigating the CIA's practices. Orange1 provided a link to a section above.
Church Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
I've attached the snippet which seems to say the CIA asked for mods to the 727. i.e.
"As a result, the Agency acquired Boeing 727's and convinced Boeing to modify the 727 by enlarging the ventral exit, enhancing its airdrop capability.
quoting:
So the theory was that the 727's would be used on MAC contracts to be available on an overriding basis if needed for major national security operation. They were used, usually when they had spare time. To my recollection, they were only called off once, off the actual contract time, and this was for a possible use which didn't go through. But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there. I think from the Philippines to somewhere in Southeast Asia. I don't recall. They pulled one of them off the MAC contract and had it available. I think read to go, in twelve hours, all set for the operation. And the operation was never called. But it showed what the capability was. And what they had to do was get substitute service for the MAC contract."
This is interesting. I read a report of secret low level 727 flights to India around that time. This case doesn't sound like it was that though.
background from another site:
"In 1966, the CIA even scheduled four Boeing 727 flights between Okinawa and “Oak Tree”, to be made at low level to avoid radar and anti-American
opposition at New Delhi – evidently using the aircraft of Air America / SAT"
'Oak Tree' was a location on the east side of India.
Church Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
I've attached the snippet which seems to say the CIA asked for mods to the 727. i.e.
"As a result, the Agency acquired Boeing 727's and convinced Boeing to modify the 727 by enlarging the ventral exit, enhancing its airdrop capability.
quoting:
So the theory was that the 727's would be used on MAC contracts to be available on an overriding basis if needed for major national security operation. They were used, usually when they had spare time. To my recollection, they were only called off once, off the actual contract time, and this was for a possible use which didn't go through. But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there. I think from the Philippines to somewhere in Southeast Asia. I don't recall. They pulled one of them off the MAC contract and had it available. I think read to go, in twelve hours, all set for the operation. And the operation was never called. But it showed what the capability was. And what they had to do was get substitute service for the MAC contract."
This is interesting. I read a report of secret low level 727 flights to India around that time. This case doesn't sound like it was that though.
background from another site:
"In 1966, the CIA even scheduled four Boeing 727 flights between Okinawa and “Oak Tree”, to be made at low level to avoid radar and anti-American
opposition at New Delhi – evidently using the aircraft of Air America / SAT"
'Oak Tree' was a location on the east side of India.
snowmman 3
good data in orange1's skyjack "database" link
yearly totals on skyjacks. evidently world wide?
('31-'61 not included,)
'62 - 3
'63 - 3
'64 - 4
'65 - 5
'66 - 4
'67 - 6
'68 - 35
'69 - 94
'70 - 97
'71 - 72
'72 - 76
'73 - 33
'74 - 33
'76 - 26
'77 - 32
There were 7 helicopter hijacks in the time period tracked. That's ballsy. I wouldn't want to unnerve a heli pilot?
1 Zlin cropduster
A Catalina flying boat, and a Grumman G-73
yearly totals on skyjacks. evidently world wide?
('31-'61 not included,)
'62 - 3
'63 - 3
'64 - 4
'65 - 5
'66 - 4
'67 - 6
'68 - 35
'69 - 94
'70 - 97
'71 - 72
'72 - 76
'73 - 33
'74 - 33
'76 - 26
'77 - 32
There were 7 helicopter hijacks in the time period tracked. That's ballsy. I wouldn't want to unnerve a heli pilot?
1 Zlin cropduster
A Catalina flying boat, and a Grumman G-73
377 22
The Church Committee produced a report investigating the CIA's practices. Orange1 provided a link to a section above.
Church Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
I've attached the snippet which seems to say the CIA asked for mods to the 727. i.e.
"As a result, the Agency acquired Boeing 727's and convinced Boeing to modify the 727 by enlarging the ventral exit, enhancing its airdrop capability.
quoting:
So the theory was that the 727's would be used on MAC contracts to be available on an overriding basis if needed for major national security operation. They were used, usually when they had spare time. To my recollection, they were only called off once, off the actual contract time, and this was for a possible use which didn't go through. But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there. I think from the Philippines to somewhere in Southeast Asia. I don't recall. They pulled one of them off the MAC contract and had it available. I think read to go, in twelve hours, all set for the operation. And the operation was never called. But it showed what the capability was. And what they had to do was get substitute service for the MAC contract."
This is interesting. I read a report of secret low level 727 flights to India around that time. This case doesn't sound like it was that though.
background from another site:
"In 1966, the CIA even scheduled four Boeing 727 flights between Okinawa and “Oak Tree”, to be made at low level to avoid radar and anti-American
opposition at New Delhi – evidently using the aircraft of Air America / SAT"
'Oak Tree' was a location on the east side of India.
Very interesting Snowmman. Good job. You dig deep every time, finding the veins of gold that I so often miss in my superficial Googling. This is the first solid info I have seen on who ordered the airdrop capability mods on 727s and I have been looking for a long time. The article mentions an enlarged exit which raises an interesting issue. Even if Cooper knew that the Boeing modified 727s could do airdrops, would that also mean that an unmodified passenger 727 could also do it? Might there be a door interlock that was disabled for the airdrop mod? To me that points back to Cooper having access to some Boeing info. I think he KNEW FOR SURE that the passenger 727 could be jumped. Just knowing that modifed Air America 727s could do it wouldn't be enough. If he had a good connection to Boeing info he'd know that the mods (enlarged exit, etc) were not essential for airdrop capability but just enhanced it.
Show me:
local area connections
paratrooper/smoke jumper/skydiver
Boeing connection
Appropriate age and appearance
and maybe add SE Asia experience
Couldn't be more than a hundred suspects matching these criteria.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
I've been trying to understand whether there was regular flights to and from McChord and Vietnam. Orange1's news article was good.
Attached is a document where a guy analyzed the issues..oh too big ..link:
http://www.veteransvoteyourcause.com/files/Briefing_for_NVLSP_Short_Version.doc
with flying to/from Southeast Asia from/to CONUS for a variety of jet aircraft in use during the '60s (civilian and military). It's amazingly detailed, and might be interesting to some pilots. Has distances, plane capabilities (not 727) etc.
(edit) down around page 12-14 it starts having specific routes and refuel stops. Apparently these were the actual routes used?
I also wondered if there was any tracking of US people coming back from vietnam. I suppose things weren't computerized, so probably not much was done in terms of the Cooper search back then, looking at incoming folks in 1971? Maybe too many?
(edit)
From that doc:
"This discussion is critical and essential to understanding the routing of military and military contracted flights between the Continental United States (CONUS) and Southeast Asia (SEA). It graphically illustrates why many veterans indicate that when flying to SEA they indicate stops in Alaska and Japan; specifically Eielson or Elmendorf Air Force Bases in Alaska, and Yokota, Kadena, or Naha Air Force Bases in Japan. These stops were along the Great Circle Routes and not only shortened the distance, but also utilized the “polar easterlies” for “pushing” the aircraft past normal aircraft range limitations.
It shows that military and military contracted aircraft returning from SEA would try to use flight paths as close as possible to the trade winds and jet streams which move from west to east."
Attached is a document where a guy analyzed the issues..oh too big ..link:
http://www.veteransvoteyourcause.com/files/Briefing_for_NVLSP_Short_Version.doc
with flying to/from Southeast Asia from/to CONUS for a variety of jet aircraft in use during the '60s (civilian and military). It's amazingly detailed, and might be interesting to some pilots. Has distances, plane capabilities (not 727) etc.
(edit) down around page 12-14 it starts having specific routes and refuel stops. Apparently these were the actual routes used?
I also wondered if there was any tracking of US people coming back from vietnam. I suppose things weren't computerized, so probably not much was done in terms of the Cooper search back then, looking at incoming folks in 1971? Maybe too many?
(edit)
From that doc:
"This discussion is critical and essential to understanding the routing of military and military contracted flights between the Continental United States (CONUS) and Southeast Asia (SEA). It graphically illustrates why many veterans indicate that when flying to SEA they indicate stops in Alaska and Japan; specifically Eielson or Elmendorf Air Force Bases in Alaska, and Yokota, Kadena, or Naha Air Force Bases in Japan. These stops were along the Great Circle Routes and not only shortened the distance, but also utilized the “polar easterlies” for “pushing” the aircraft past normal aircraft range limitations.
It shows that military and military contracted aircraft returning from SEA would try to use flight paths as close as possible to the trade winds and jet streams which move from west to east."
snowmman 3
377 says:
Here's what we don't know about the net the FBI cast in '71. And we'll never know since Ckret was kidnapped.
1) How far back did they look? I've proposed '62-'71 as the critical window based on arrival of 727 technology and civilian freefall skydiving technology.
2) What about non-US? The people we might be interested in might have been travelling around the world at any time before and/or after 11/24/71.
How did the FBI deal with that issue?
3) Sunglasses. We've talked about the generic nature of the tie clasp and tie. But what about the sunglasses? The '81 composite (color) shows the frames as being silver. But they were all plastic? (edit) I think there was testimony that said that....Why would someone in the Northwest in November have sunglasses?
4) "Mediterranean" skin tone. Was this a tan, makeup, or natural skin color? Could Tina tell if it was a tan that was accumulated over a period of years?
5) Balding, receding, or combover? The initial '71-'72 composite has what looks like a combover to me on Cooper. But it morphed into a receding hairline by '81. It would be nice to understand the hair issue better.
Also, the hair was described as "greasy" or oddly black by the guy across from Cooper? Was this a Vitalis kind of deal? Might make sense for a balding guy in 1971.
'81 composite showing the silver/black frames is attached.
local area connections
paratrooper/smoke jumper/skydiver
Boeing connection
Appropriate age and appearance
and maybe add SE Asia experience
Couldn't be more than a hundred suspects matching these criteria.
Here's what we don't know about the net the FBI cast in '71. And we'll never know since Ckret was kidnapped.
1) How far back did they look? I've proposed '62-'71 as the critical window based on arrival of 727 technology and civilian freefall skydiving technology.
2) What about non-US? The people we might be interested in might have been travelling around the world at any time before and/or after 11/24/71.
How did the FBI deal with that issue?
3) Sunglasses. We've talked about the generic nature of the tie clasp and tie. But what about the sunglasses? The '81 composite (color) shows the frames as being silver. But they were all plastic? (edit) I think there was testimony that said that....Why would someone in the Northwest in November have sunglasses?
4) "Mediterranean" skin tone. Was this a tan, makeup, or natural skin color? Could Tina tell if it was a tan that was accumulated over a period of years?
5) Balding, receding, or combover? The initial '71-'72 composite has what looks like a combover to me on Cooper. But it morphed into a receding hairline by '81. It would be nice to understand the hair issue better.
Also, the hair was described as "greasy" or oddly black by the guy across from Cooper? Was this a Vitalis kind of deal? Might make sense for a balding guy in 1971.
'81 composite showing the silver/black frames is attached.
377 22
Also, the hair was described as "greasy" or oddly black by the guy across from Cooper? Was this a Vitalis kind of deal? Might make sense for a balding guy in 1971.
Could "greasy" and "oddly black" descriptions be consistent with a cheap wig/hairpiece? Now THAT would surely have blown off during the jump. A bald guy walking around that night might not have aroused suspicion since he would not match the hijacker's description. Logic would dictate some sort of disguise beyond the sunglasses. A wig would be ideal if you were balding. Easily removed and instant transformation into someone who would not match the suspect's description.
Would Cooper have been crazy enough to use no disguise other than the shades? The Cooper sketch showed up in newspapers and magazines all around the world and that was forseeable. If you were Cooper returning to your prior life you would not want to match any sketches of the suspect.
You wouldn't want a Beatles wig that screamed fake. A high hairline wig/hairpiece would be ideal.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
steve1 5
I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight.
Many soldiers went through Alaska on their way to Nam. I was in the Anchorage airport in 1969. There were soldier in jungle fatiques, everywhere you looked. I often wondered how many of them made it back....
377 22
Looking further I see it was actually Orange1 who first posted a link to the CIA-Boeing 727 airdrop mod info. WAY TO GO ORANGE!!!
I tried several times to get info from Don Kirlin who battled the FAA for a long time to get approval for 727 skydives at WFFC. I understand that he got engineering data from Boeing to make his case for safety. I never received a reply. Maybe I didnt have the right email addresses.
We haven't got closer to identifying Cooper but we have established that the circle of people who knew 727s could be jumped was larger than previously thought. I bet a lot of guys in Nam knew about the drops, especially skydivers. Word always gets out when a new plane is jumped.
377
I tried several times to get info from Don Kirlin who battled the FAA for a long time to get approval for 727 skydives at WFFC. I understand that he got engineering data from Boeing to make his case for safety. I never received a reply. Maybe I didnt have the right email addresses.
We haven't got closer to identifying Cooper but we have established that the circle of people who knew 727s could be jumped was larger than previously thought. I bet a lot of guys in Nam knew about the drops, especially skydivers. Word always gets out when a new plane is jumped.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
377 22
But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there.
hmmm... why was the White House involved?
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 263
The Church Committee produced a report investigating the CIA's practices. Orange1 provided a link to a section above.
Church Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee
I've attached the snippet which seems to say the CIA asked for mods to the 727. i.e.
"As a result, the Agency acquired Boeing 727's and convinced Boeing to modify the 727 by enlarging the ventral exit, enhancing its airdrop capability.
quoting:
So the theory was that the 727's would be used on MAC contracts to be available on an overriding basis if needed for major national security operation. They were used, usually when they had spare time. To my recollection, they were only called off once, off the actual contract time, and this was for a possible use which didn't go through. But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there. I think from the Philippines to somewhere in Southeast Asia. I don't recall. They pulled one of them off the MAC contract and had it available. I think read to go, in twelve hours, all set for the operation. And the operation was never called. But it showed what the capability was. And what they had to do was get substitute service for the MAC contract."
This is interesting. I read a report of secret low level 727 flights to India around that time. This case doesn't sound like it was that though.
background from another site:
"In 1966, the CIA even scheduled four Boeing 727 flights between Okinawa and “Oak Tree”, to be made at low level to avoid radar and anti-American
opposition at New Delhi – evidently using the aircraft of Air America / SAT"
'Oak Tree' was a location on the east side of India.
Very interesting Snowmman. Good job. You dig deep every time, finding the veins of gold that I so often miss in my superficial Googling. This is the first solid info I have seen on who ordered the airdrop capability mods on 727s and I have been looking for a long time. The article mentions an enlarged exit which raises an interesting issue. Even if Cooper knew that the Boeing modified 727s could do airdrops, would that also mean that an unmodified passenger 727 could also do it? Might there be a door interlock that was disabled for the airdrop mod? To me that points back to Cooper having access to some Boeing info. I think he KNEW FOR SURE that the passenger 727 could be jumped. Just knowing that modifed Air America 727s could do it wouldn't be enough. If he had a good connection to Boeing info he'd know that the mods (enlarged exit, etc) were not essential for airdrop capability but just enhanced it.
Reply> Well, KNOWING IT and DOING IT were
obviously two different things then, for Cooper.
He couldnt even get he stairs down! This indicates
he had had lots of practice.
Somewhere in your broad theorising you need to filter
in a few hard facts of this case, maybe?.
Georger
The thing you gotta ask yourself: Why Bruce Hornsby?
Hey, Tom introduced it with his mention of guns. Not my fault.
Hit the weight bench!
It's difficult to find Tom on the web. The only search that seems to work in Google to get a hit on him is:
"a row of articulated dinosaur vertebrae"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22a+row+of+articulated+dinosaur+vertebrae%22+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
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