DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

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Bill bixby is alive and well and living with Elvis and DB Cooper. Regardless of DB's fate it's nicde to have our own Elvis in the skydiving world. Sorry, no factual info to offer, just love that DB is alive and well in the forum!

However, $200k from 1971 is probably gone so if he is alive he is certainly working somewhere, maybe your local DZ.

Hey cjsitfly: I usually don't tread outside this DB thread, but saw you posting on the 82nd airborne fatalities thread.

Any thoughts you have about what kind of person Cooper might have been? Does he feel non-military to you, based on what we know? Or is there just not enough information?

Seems like you have some good military static line experience. Throw out any thoughts you have that might be useful here! Sharp knives welcome too..

[snowmman 3]

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I
I bet someone on another dropzone forum knows something about these airdrop tests. I am going to try and find out who.
..
Who were these earliest 727 jumpers? US? Thai? Laotion?

377

Well now, the whole skydiving history question of "who was the first to jump a 727" is thrown up in the air.

And the bragging rights for static lining a 727 too!

I wonder if there were more jumps. It's not clear if all that footage was shot on one flight.

I was thinking they wouldn't dump a full row of pallets, and two jumpers, on the very first test, would they?

Oh, I found a website where a guy has a copy of the legal paper that John Willheim Productions signed with Air America to start work on the film. It was from 1969.
All of the film seems consistent quaility, so I suspect it was all filmed after '69, the date of the paperwork.

So it makes sense that what Leeker said is true: the filming was done somewhere in '70/'71.

My random reading with morning coffee, stuff from the amazing dallas collection which we've mined before. This first url is for all the William M. Leary papers...accounts of Air America in Laos. Amazing details
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aamnote.htm


(this is accounts of spec ops in Laos '69-'73)
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/specop75.pdf

Leary has names and talks about the personalities and interplay of individuals. It really adds depth to the history.

[snowmman 3]

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In the last 2 yrs "Sluggo" was able to peg 2 of the companies as JMWave entities. So his visit with me was time very well spent, just to verify that Duane had indeed worked for the companies.

Just post the names, dates, and any other info.

You don't need to pre-announce with dramatic whispers.

If you've got something, you've got something.
If you don't, you don't.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Cooper did.

[377 22]

Jo,

Where did you get the info that 727s had been jumped before the Norjack jump?

I am pretty sure you insisted that they had. Is my memory correct?

As we approach 6000 posts on this forum, it is hard to keep things straight about who said what.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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(story, book, movie or whatever they do).

I did it for the lulz

[377 22]

VERY unlikely that the first 727 cargo drop would include S/L jumpers IMHO.

It is hard to believe that a 727 airdrop system that worked so well and was so expensive to design and test would see zero operational use. Sure C 130s can fly pressurized and drop stuff, but Hercs are FAR slower than a 727 and are also a suspect tactical acft where a 727 can easily masquerade as an airliner. Air America had Hercs. The 727 system was obviously designed for a special mission that existing acft could not do as well.

The Leary papers are amazing. What a wealth of info. Just give the Snowmman a lead and he digs all the way to China.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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The Leary papers are amazing. What a wealth of info. Just give the Snowmman a lead and he digs all the way to China.

377

You know when I pop my head out on the other side
(it's Beijing, right Jo?) that The Night Clerk is going to be there and club me with a 4x4. That's how the movie ends.

[377 22]

The Night Clerk would be well advised to thwart you Snowmman. ESL is just a codeword for Early 727 S/L jump. We are closing in on him.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3424711;#3424711

hope we get some answers.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 264]

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Okay, I snipped and uploaded it to Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjI

Comment there, or here, with insight!

I think it's pretty good. about 2 1/2 minutes.

I noticed there are two static line jumpers. I had thought the no-helmet guy was just jumpmastering. But it appears he jumped too! maybe he got carried away with the moment. No helmet, no jumpsuit, no goggles? Not sure if he's the 2nd jumper though. What think?

This is what I looked for - for yrs. I had been told about it, but had no proof it was actually done - now, you found it. I was only able to watch it in second segments. Does anyone know how I can get it on a disk or whatever in order to view it like it is supposed to be viewed. I have only dial-up.

Air America planes had a connection to JMWave (reported to be a covert cover) out of Florida. JMWave bought some of the planes. Two companies who had Weber on their payroll at that time and prior to that as Collins were part of JMWave.? Go research JMWave and you will find they bought Air American planes in the 60's and early 70's. JMWave was reportedly related to various covert actions in Cuba and other countries. There was also a reported drug connection.

I know you guys think I am crazy but this clip took me right back to where I was yrs ago and all it got me was 12 yrs of being ridiculed and made fun of and called delusional....BUT, I didn't have the clip - just the information that it had been done and Duane's involvement with these companies.

These Insurance companies have alway been a puzzled me because Ex-cons cannot be licensed insurance agents. I met many individual who worked for these companies when Duane did - and I have since 1996 found that four of whom Duane had a close association with are also ex-cons. Most agents with these companies were and are very legitimate - but for some reason it seemed to be a easy place for ex-cons to find employment.

I do seem to recall Jo insisting that there had been early 727 jumps. I remember questioning her proof.

Jo, how did you obtain that info? I had my strong doubts, but you were right. I expected Dr. Lesser to confirm that the Air America 727 jump stories were urban myth, but SURPRISE: he links me to FILM OF THE JUMPS!!!!

JM Wave appears to be entwined in all sorts of spook stuff. Doesn't mean Duane was Cooper but it does add some possibilities that Duane may have been exposed to some covert ops guys.

Jo, you make a big deal about felons being banned from insurance jobs. Duane was a con man. Isn't it far more likely that he evaded detection of his convictions rather than being granted a free felon pass by higher ups? I have seen it done by flipping a number pair on a social security number and misspelling one letter in a last name. If caught you claim "mistake or typo". If not caught, you got the job. Back in the pre Internet days it was easy to hide criminal records in routine employment situations. Maybe word spread among cons about places that were lax in checking backgrounds. I just cannot see an insurance company intentionally recruiting cons.

377

Do you know what a "cult" is?

[skyjack71 0]

I have just been "instructed" NOT to SHARE anymore information.


377: I think I answered your question - it was very early on in my search. I know that I discussed this with Himmelsbach in the very beginning - but, without going back to my notes I can't tell you much more. I know that it was confirmed in my mind as soon as I knew what JMWave was and the research that Sluggo did confirmed that Duane was involved with companies that were said to have been involved in JMWave.

I just went into the first things a friend pulled up for me many yrs ago - he is deceased now...there is an article on JMWave (call it the fishing pole). This man was in the service himself and I guess part of this era...dated 1998. So that was my first knowledge of a name for what I felt Duane was involved in.

This was again sent to me by the man in CA. (call that the fishing line) and then Sluggo put the hook on and Snowman put the lead weight on.

Georger has to be all out of sorts that anything I say has been confirmed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

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Do you know what a "cult" is?

No, I don't. My Auditor tells me that it is a church not a cult. He has the IRS documents to prove it. It's nice to have Tom Cruise and John Travolta as fellow parishioners. My paycheck goes straight to the church but that's OK. They really need the money to fight psychiatric tyranny.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

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(story, book, movie or whatever they do).

I did it for the lulz

What is a lulz? Whatever you did it Snowmman.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 22]

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I have just been "instructed" NOT to SHARE anymore information.

BY WHO? I havent noticed that you take instructions from anyone Jo. Are you going to follow the "instructions"?

BTW you really do have Snowmann and Georger figured out wrong. They won't be disappointed about any developments that have solid evidence behind them, even if they come from you. They just get irritated at unsubstantiated gigantic leaps of faith with nothing solid to back them up.

It is a H U G E leap to go from Duane sold insurance for a JMWave owned/affiliated company to Duane was Cooper. You'd need the Golden Gate Bridge to cross that gap.

Even with the Air America films, there is not one speck of evidence that puts Duane in a chute. If you have it, show it. Still, I do welcome your participation in the forum and am happy that you get some satisfaction from the recent 727 jump revelations.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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I have just been "instructed" NOT to SHARE anymore information.

I have been instructed to start digging up the weapons caches that were put "beyond reach" and start cleaning out the grease!

Weird coincidence!

(edit) Joke! for those of thick skulls.

[snowmman 3]

We just switched to cable, and I can't get the instructions thru the static on one of the channels like I used to.

If I jam a fork in the toaster and point it North, I do hear some humming that I think is a Broadway show tune whose lyrics seem to be an encoded message.

How is everyone else getting their instructions?

My worst fear is the end of the world message is broadcast and I'm late and miss it.

[377 22]

Jo, if you are now taking "instructions" I am sure Georger and Snowmman have a few for you ;-)

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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My worst fear is the end of the world message is broadcast and I'm late and miss it.

Is that an original Snowmman? You should write for Jay Leno.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

Speaking of end of the world messages, those among us who are short wave listeners recall the voice code broadcasts to USAF SAC bombers on HF radio that started with "Sky King Sky King do not answer" and then a series of letters spoken phonetically like Alpha Foxtrot Victor etc. B 52s also had RTTY for receiving messages in text. One day the bombers aloft get a priority message "do not eat the salami". The bombers must maintain radio silence to avoid detection so they cannot inquire further. They go nuts trying to decode it, but it is not in the days code book. Turned out the box lunches sent up with them contained tainted salami. Good thing they didn't go Dr Strangelove on us. True story from a retired B 52G aircraft commander.

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Speaking of end of the world messages, those among us who are short wave listeners recall the voice code broadcasts to USAF SAC bombers on HF radio that started with "Sky King Sky King do not answer" and then a series of letters spoken phonetically like Alpha Foxtrot Victor etc. B 52s also had RTTY for receiving messages in text. One day the bombers aloft get a priority message "do not eat the salami". The bombers must maintain radio silence to avoid detection so they cannot inquire further. They go nuts trying to decode it, but it is not in the days code book. Turned out the box lunches sent up with them contained tainted salami. Good thing they didn't go Dr Strangelove on us. True story from a retired B 52G aircraft commander.

good one 377.
but it kills me when we only get 99.9999% of the story.
Did they eat the salami?

[snowmman 3]

Tom said he had a decomposition test going.
This surprised me, as my quick scan of the literature made me think it would be really difficult to do anything useful, without a lot of experiments and a lot of time.

There is a lot of literature on cotton decomposition in soil. I know money is not cotton or cellulose, but it provides a starting point for understanding the affecting variables I think.

Here are some papers. Many others. (the first is referenced a lot so its title can be well used for a google search)
"Decomposition of cotton strips in soil; analysis of the world data set"
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/5048/1/N005048CP.pdf

This is a big one. 180pp. a bunch of articles.
"Cotton strip assay: an index of decomposition in soils"
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/4949/1/24%2520-%2520Cotton%2520Strip.pdf

on methodology:
"Some statistical problems in analysing cotton strip assay data"
http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/5027/1/N005027CP.pdf

Could Tom could really have a decomposition test going? It's possible it's a "soak in water and see what happens test"? Not sure.

Be interesting to understand the rough outlines of what Tom is doing/planning in regards to "decomposition" as opposed to element analysis.

It would be very interesting if a rate of decay could be established to interpolate to say loss of weight or something for the found bills. But I think there's too many variables? especially considering burial variables (oxygen levels or ???)

I have no knowledge about this stuff, it'd be interesting to understand more.

Oh p.s.
who's paying for the palladium target and sputterer? Isn't that a couple thousand?

[377 22]

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Oh p.s.
who's paying for the palladium target and sputterer? Isn't that a couple thousand?

Walmart has em this week for $299, and nobody gets trampled when they have a sale in their spectroscopy supplies section.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

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Oh p.s.
who's paying for the palladium target and sputterer? Isn't that a couple thousand?

Walmart has em this week for $299, and nobody gets trampled when they have a sale in their spectroscopy supplies section.

377

I was thinking that if this "civilian investigators" thing on Cooper is breaking up (or maybe going elsewhere?) then is Tom going to be just a guy working for free? Hopefully it's a good investment in the future for him. We should back him up so at least he gets a good paper published, if he's putting cash in.

Although, after reading how all the USAID contracts were hornswoggled to back CIA stuff in Laos, I'm figuring Tom's landed a nice big 'homeland security" check. If he hasn't, we need to get him a consult..he's missing out! (snowmman's 1st collorary)

(edit) used sputterers for SEM
http://www.bidservice.com/Browses/SearchEngine_Browse.asp?keywords=%20sputter&source=GooglePPC_Vacuum_Equip&gclid=CM33w5zKxpcCFQ8Qagod0GihTQ
me, I only use PE 4450's..everything else is crap

[snowmman 3]

My Ed Norton reference, interestingly, was just a near miss. Honeymooners reference at bottom, due to Continental Air Services.

This is an interview with a guy who was Peace Corps/USAID (not CIA) in Laos in the '60s.

"Q: Would you like to tell us some basic facts about how you got to Laos? First of all your name and what you were doing when you were sent to Laos.

From the Peace Corps to USAID, 1963-1965

KUHN: Okay. My name is Ernest C. Kuhn, Ernie Kuhn. I was in the Peace Corps in Thailand from 1963 through mid-1965 working in a...I'm going to use the politically incorrect term of Meo rather than Hmong because at the time we are talking about no one referred to anyone as Hmong...I was living in a Meo village up near the Thai/Lao border in Loei province. While I was in the Peace Corps two of our directors in Bangkok had been AID employees in Laos and were familiar with the program and basically recruited me or suggested that I might be interested in working up in Laos. They set up a trip for myself and four other Peace Corps volunteers the summer of 1965. We went up to Laos, were interviewed and I was offered a job immediately on contract at first and later on became a full Foreign Service officer.
...

KUHN: I wasn't in the Forward Area Program, but they didn't really move around. They would be in one village basically conducting political, social and agricultural programs and things like that. Those people were in a more exposed area than people who were working in the clusters which was just general rural development work.

The third section, the one that got all the raised eyebrows in Vientiane, and we were all suspected of not being AID employees. In fact, people would say to our face, “You people are all CIA agents and not AID people.” That section was the refugee relief program. This was the program that by 1966 was almost driving the AID program there. The refugee relief program was broad and included the whole school system, the medical system and, of course, the relief part.

...

Q: Do you have any general number of people you were serving?

KUHN: Well, there were times when we were feeding well over 300,000 people. Now, of course, that included people in the south, too. I suppose in the north at any given time we probably had upward to 200,000 or more people. Those people were mostly served by air. We had an extraordinary system using both Air America and Continental Air Services. People don't really give much credit to Continental because the popular perception is that Air America was the CIA airline and did all the work. But, in fact, a major part of the work was done by Continental Air Services. Bob Six who was the owner of Continental Airlines had started up this subsidiary to get a piece of the pie. Bob Six and his wife, Audrey Meadows who played the wife of Jackie Gleason on the Honeymooners, took a personal interest in the program. In fact, they would themselves come over to Sam Thong and even donated a jeep to Pop back in the days when AID was not giving him any support. So Continental was a major player."

from
http://international.loc.gov/master/mss/mssmisc/mfdip/2004/2004kuh01.sgm
(edit) or better in pdf:
http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNABZ296.pdf

[377 22]

The Homeland Security grants make Air America look like it was run by Mother Theresa. Billions down the drain. One that just kills me is when major bucks go to backwoods police departments for full on counter terrorism SWAT stuff including armored assault vehicles, FLIRS, etc. Oh yeah, they can attack anywhere so ya gotta spend EVERYWHERE. Right!

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.