DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

On Sept 12, 2008 at 2:15 AM Jo opened the gold plates and revealed:

"I have repeatedly said the name Knutson or Knutsen or something similar had a meaning. Smokejumper (only for a short time), try lived in Portland, try worked for Boeing. NOTE: I did say worked for BOEING.

I have told the FBI over and over and over there was a connection with this name and Duane and the skyjacking. I think I found it, but it is UP to the FBI to check it out."

Knutsen was revealed to us twice by Jo.

Jo: are there any more Knutsen crumbs?

There is no "Knutsen" that has ever been trained as a smokejumper, according to the book "Smokejumpers" which lists all, and the year, and training center they graduated from. I even looked and they had listings to MSO 1943, when the first CPS smokejumper crews started ('43-'45)
other busts:
Knutson

How was Knutsen revealed to you? Did you read it somewhere? Whispered at a convention? Clara-voyance? Dare I say it: sweet nothings in the ear from a skydiver?

(edit) You must have read it somewhere. If it was just spoken, you might have said "Newtson". I doubt "kn" would be your first choice for beginning the spelling unless you copied it from somewhere? Where?

(edit) The ethnic sound of Knutsen makes me think you plucked it out of the CPS camps. Yes there were smokejumpers from the CPS camps, and possibly are not all listed in the Smokejumpers book. Not sure. But:
The first non-CPS crew was in 1946.
The CPS crews were started in 1943.
The problem is the numbers were small. Or where they (35 at McCall...250 total?)
Are you saying Knutsen was '43-'45???

from
http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=358&magazine_editions_id=31

"During the first three years of smokejumping at McCall, the crew consisted of two Forest Service employees and the rest were CPS (Civilian Public Service or Conscientious Objectors) jumpers. Lloyd had a lot of respect for the conscientious objectors, even though he did not agree with them for not going into the military service. He understood it was the way they were raised and what they believed in. The CPS crew would do anything they were asked to do in McCall in those early years. That first year the CPS jumpers were not prepared for the sub-zero temperatures. He had to "beg, borrow, and steal" for clothes to get them through the long winter months. The CPS program was run by their own organization and, after training, they received their jumper base assignment. In 1944, McCall received sixteen of these jumpers and expanded to thirty-five for the final year of the program in 1945."

(edit) Correction. This recent book puts the number of CPS firefighters at 250? Correction again. I'm looking at the book at Google, and it appears to say 250 trained to jump
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=gQ7XawzdAZQC&dq=Smoke+Jumping+on+the+Western+Fire+Line:+Conscientious+Objectors+During+World+War+II&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=VaSgIq-G4w&sig=GDu7IsJmQx1KBE2arO9H58NagcE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA4,M1

Mark Matthews, Smoke Jumping on the Western Fire Line: Conscientious Objectors During World War II. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2006. Pp. 336 ($29.95) ISBN 978-0-8061-3766-7

"Mark Matthews is a journalist based in Missoula, Montana, who since 1993 has worked as a seasonal firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service.
..
From 1943 to 1945, 250 American conscientious objectors trained and performed duties as firefighters at Civilian Public Service Camp Grand Menard near Huson, Montana. "

"In addition to working at the smoke jumpers' base camp, some of the men traveled to assignments at spike camps in western Montana, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, and at fire lookout towers across the northern Rockies."
http://www.bethelks.edu/mennonitelife/2006Dec/reviews.php

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Quote

Lets examine the logging trail and shack -

The problem, as Snowmman notes, is Consistency.

The case in point above is the logging trail and shack where you say Duane buried the chute (and spent the night there? used it for shelter). Did the tower
have a red warning light at its top? And again, its location near what railroad tracks coming from and going to where ?

Or, was the logging trail an easement? I realise easements get logged after a swath cut to accommodate line towers being installed and erected?

How is all of this consistent with the FBI and Sluggo's
flight path?

I realise you are not good with technical matters, but
you have introduced this some time ago and I wish
you to fill out the rest of your story.

These are very important details. You need to clean this up for everyone.

Georger

georger,


I feel the need to step in here.

This is tough for me, so please be kind in your response.

I have spent many hours pouring over topo maps with Jo. Unless you have been face-to-face with her, and you have given her freedom to “free associate” about her “beliefs”, you can’t pass judgment on her assertions.

Jo has a story to tell. I don’t think it’s the story she “thinks” it is, but it is an amazing and compelling story just the same. Without making any judgment on Jo’s assertions, I feel like I can make a few observations.

The places Duane took Jo on the “memory lane tour” are astonishingly congruent with the areas I (Sluggo) have previously identified as important areas, all based on my “modified landing zone” and considering the “lost minute” and Flight Crew descriptions.

NOTE: “Astonishingly congruent” does not mean that I attach any significance to the coincidence.

I let Jo tell me (by tracing a path on the topo maps) where she “thought” she and Duane went on their trip. The area she ID’ed as the ‘Tower/shed” is within the area that I have ID’ed as the actual LZ. This is in the Brush Prairie area 2.5 miles SE of the BTG VORTAC. (Near a mobile home park and the Bethel Cemetery). The area she ID’ed as Duane’s “tower/shed was 1.5 miles East of there. A pipeline is 0.6 mile east of that point.

What I am saying is, that when you let Jo show you (on a map) where she “thinks” Duane took her, it is a reasonable fit to what we “think” we know about Cooper’s landing zone.

I anxiously await the results of the “money team”. I think we will find that Cooper landed in the Orchards/Brush Prairie area. IF this is true, it will lend credence to Jo’s story.

I am currently working on a hypothesis that has Duane was a participant in a search for Cooper in the Orchards area. (I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.) I think Duane became somewhat obsessed with NORJAK after this experience. This may have led to Duane’s “death-bed” revelation.

Jo has not presented herself well in any of the internet forums she has posted to over the last 5 years. She has really lost any and all credibility in the last few months. BUT, if you want to solve the NORJAK case. You have to take Jo’s story into consideration just as you would Galen Cook’s (Gossett) or Geoffrey Gray’s (Christiansen). You must separate the story from the story teller.

Just because Jo draws a conclusion from what she “thinks” she knows, does not necessarily mean everything she says is bullshit. If a sheriff’s deputy came up with a conclusion about NORJAK based on things he had learned about the case, would you discount the elements of his investigation, just because you disagreed with his conclusion?

Listen to what Jo say’s. Don’t listen to her conclusions. Make your own conclusions, based on the things that Jo says, that can be validated.

37 years have passed. Valuable data has been lost. If you want to solve NORJAK, listen to everybody, validate their claims, then (and only then) make a determination as to what YOU believe.

Jo finds relevance in things that are meaningless to me. I find relevance in things that are meaningless to her. Neither one of us knows the “truth”. But if every path is pursued, if every lead is followed, if every assertion is validated, then the “reality” will finaly emerge. If I didn’t believe that, I would have quit 32 years ago.

So, you can sit there in [wherever], pass judgment based on internet posting, come to a decision, feel good about your conclusion, and get the smug feeling that you have learned all you need to learn from this “Jo Weber” person.

OR

Get off your ass and go visit Jo. Spend some time with her. Find out what makes her tick. See her weakness. See her strengths. Put yourself in her place. See what you can learn from her. Look at the 4 or 5 suitcases full of very carefully assembled data she has. (Most of which was gathered by a private detective/investigative journalist.) Get angry with her. Feel sorry for her. Hate her. Love her. Get impatient with her, because she lives on “Jo time” and not “your time.” Ask her questions to validate her “state of mind” at a particular time in her life. Try to “trip her up” with carefully crafted inquires. THEN (and only then), form an opinion about whether she has any value in the NORJAK solution.

Now… I know Orange1 isn’t able or likely to come from South Africa to visit Jo. And, most of the DZ.com posters aren’t able to travel to Florida to visit Jo. But (fortunately) I am just a few hours away, and I CAN visit her. So, I guess you have a choice… You can trust my assessment, or you can reject my assessment. But, whichever you decide to do, it says more about how you feel about me, than how you feel about Jo.

Respectfully,


Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

uh?
why would I visit Jo?

She may have a story to tell.
If she's not able to tell it Sluggo, and you can, then tell it.
It sounds like you're starting to.

How about creating a web page that outlines it so we can review it without constantly getting into this mode of beating on her over the crumbs she sprinkles.

You want to blame the forum.
Not!

This forum is just a bunch of guys talking smack at the bar. Since when has it been anything but that?

(edit) You've become Jo, Sluggo..i.e. the dramatic whisper "(I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.)"
If I guess right, this so-called "evidence" is bullshit.
The FBI searched the whole flight path with multiple planes.

You've got nothing beyond that. If so, show it. Don't be Jo.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

I guess I made the assumption that you had a sincere desire to solve the NORJAK case.

I guess you are here for some other reason. And that's cool.

My bad!

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

snowmman,

I guess I made the assumption that you had a sincere desire to solve the NORJAK case.

I guess you are here for some other reason. And that's cool.

My bad!

Sluggo_Monster

Fuck you, Sluggo.
How come everyone has to accuse people of secret goals.

I'll give you a secret goal. I took the goals of this forum to heart, dug up what I thought was a good suspect that met my understanding of a good profile. No not the first one I discussed with you Sluggo.

Reviewed it with 377. Forwarded to Ckret.
And haven't heard shit. He just ignored the whole thing.

It made me realize this whole Ckret thing, and this whole forum is bullshit. And how bullshit the whole Duane thing is.

There is absolutely nothing this forum can do that's worthwhile, other than get drunk.

[georger 258]

Quote

On Sept 12, 2008 at 2:15 AM Jo opened the gold plates and revealed:

"I have repeatedly said the name Knutson or Knutsen or something similar had a meaning. Smokejumper (only for a short time), try lived in Portland, try worked for Boeing. NOTE: I did say worked for BOEING.

I have told the FBI over and over and over there was a connection with this name and Duane and the skyjacking. I think I found it, but it is UP to the FBI to check it out."

Knutsen was revealed to us twice by Jo.

Jo: are there any more Knutsen crumbs?

There is no "Knutsen" that has ever been trained as a smokejumper, according to the book "Smokejumpers" which lists all, and the year, and training center they graduated from. I even looked and they had listings to MSO 1943, when the first CPS smokejumper crews started ('43-'45)
other busts:
Knutson

How was Knutsen revealed to you? Did you read it somewhere? Whispered at a convention? Clara-voyance? Dare I say it: sweet nothings in the ear from a skydiver?

(edit) You must have read it somewhere. If it was just spoken, you might have said "Newtson". I doubt "kn" would be your first choice for beginning the spelling unless you copied it from somewhere? Where?

(edit) The ethnic sound of Knutsen makes me think you plucked it out of the CPS camps. Yes there were smokejumpers from the CPS camps, and possibly are not all listed in the Smokejumpers book. Not sure. But:
The first non-CPS crew was in 1946.
The CPS crews were started in 1943.
The problem is the numbers were small. Or where they (35 at McCall...250 total?)
Are you saying Knutsen was '43-'45???

from
http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_magazine/item.php?articles_id=358&magazine_editions_id=31

"During the first three years of smokejumping at McCall, the crew consisted of two Forest Service employees and the rest were CPS (Civilian Public Service or Conscientious Objectors) jumpers. Lloyd had a lot of respect for the conscientious objectors, even though he did not agree with them for not going into the military service. He understood it was the way they were raised and what they believed in. The CPS crew would do anything they were asked to do in McCall in those early years. That first year the CPS jumpers were not prepared for the sub-zero temperatures. He had to "beg, borrow, and steal" for clothes to get them through the long winter months. The CPS program was run by their own organization and, after training, they received their jumper base assignment. In 1944, McCall received sixteen of these jumpers and expanded to thirty-five for the final year of the program in 1945."

(edit) Correction. This recent book puts the number of CPS firefighters at 250? Correction again. I'm looking at the book at Google, and it appears to say 250 trained to jump
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=gQ7XawzdAZQC&dq=Smoke+Jumping+on+the+Western+Fire+Line:+Conscientious+Objectors+During+World+War+II&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=VaSgIq-G4w&sig=GDu7IsJmQx1KBE2arO9H58NagcE&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA4,M1

Mark Matthews, Smoke Jumping on the Western Fire Line: Conscientious Objectors During World War II. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2006. Pp. 336 ($29.95) ISBN 978-0-8061-3766-7

"Mark Matthews is a journalist based in Missoula, Montana, who since 1993 has worked as a seasonal firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service.
..
From 1943 to 1945, 250 American conscientious objectors trained and performed duties as firefighters at Civilian Public Service Camp Grand Menard near Huson, Montana. "

"In addition to working at the smoke jumpers' base camp, some of the men traveled to assignments at spike camps in western Montana, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, and at fire lookout towers across the northern Rockies."
http://www.bethelks.edu/mennonitelife/2006Dec/reviews.php

Reply> Might be spelled Knudson or Knudsen?

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

snowmman,

I guess I made the assumption that you had a sincere desire to solve the NORJAK case.

I guess you are here for some other reason. And that's cool.

My bad!

Sluggo_Monster

Fuck you, Sluggo.
How come everyone has to accuse people of secret goals.

I'll give you a secret goal. I took the goals of this forum to heart, dug up what I thought was a good suspect that met my understanding of a good profile. No not the first one I discussed with you Sluggo.

Reviewed it with 377. Forwarded to Ckret.
And haven't heard shit. He just ignored the whole thing.

It made me realize this whole Ckret thing, and this whole forum is bullshit. And how bullshit the whole Duane thing is.

There is absolutely nothing this forum can do that's worthwhile, other than get drunk.

Will you please go somewhere else to get drunk?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

Based on your edit:

Don't fuck with me snowmman,

On 01/12/1975, Clyde Jabin (you remember him, he gave D.B. his name, and was a close friend of Hemmilsbach) said; "the FBI says it is positive Cooper came down in a 24 square mile area 12 miles north of Portland." Do the math... look at the maps... do some research instead of spouting opinions.
[See Times Sampler (St. Petersburg, FL) 12/04/1975)

Also, note: the FBI was aware at this time that the bomb was a fake,

Satisfied?

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

snowmman,

I guess I made the assumption that you had a sincere desire to solve the NORJAK case.

I guess you are here for some other reason. And that's cool.

My bad!

Sluggo_Monster

Fuck you, Sluggo.
How come everyone has to accuse people of secret goals.

I'll give you a secret goal. I took the goals of this forum to heart, dug up what I thought was a good suspect that met my understanding of a good profile. No not the first one I discussed with you Sluggo.

Reviewed it with 377. Forwarded to Ckret.
And haven't heard shit. He just ignored the whole thing.

It made me realize this whole Ckret thing, and this whole forum is bullshit. And how bullshit the whole Duane thing is.

There is absolutely nothing this forum can do that's worthwhile, other than get drunk.

Will you please go somewhere else to get drunk?

Quade can ban me. He's got the trigger finger.
Just PM him.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,

Quote

I'll give you a secret goal. I took the goals of this forum to heart, dug up what I thought was a good suspect that met my understanding of a good profile. No not the first one I discussed with you Sluggo.

Reviewed it with 377. Forwarded to Ckret.
And haven't heard shit. He just ignored the whole thing.

Okay........ Calm down..... I value your opinions.

But, I have no idea what you are talking about.


Help me out here.. Who is your suspect? (Or send me an e-mail) I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just took offense at your Sluggo/Jo comparison.

Sluggo_Monster

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Sorry to say anything right now. But Cooper did land within walking distance of a tower - he buried something behind the shed they stored equipment in.

See this is what gets my goat - someone responds to something like this and it gets validated. Jo has NO PROOF Cooper did anything other than hijack an aeroplane.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

You don't see what I'm saying, Sluggo.

It made me realize a couple things

1) That reality can be infinitely more layered, and sadder, and deserving of respect, than the trivial level we discuss things at here.

2) That the amount of time spent discussing Duane with fantasy facts is insane, and probably Duane's best revenge for imprisoning him.

3) That regardless of whatever constraints Ckret has on his life, he's not running any kind of show that this forum is involved in. And that has nothing to do with who respects who and why. There's just no show.

4) This forum has always been just guys (and whoa-men! :) talking smack at the bar. I can't understand why you try to pretend it's not.

so in short: I like the quotes.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Jo has a story to tell. I don’t think it’s the story she “thinks” it is, but it is an amazing and compelling story just the same.

..........Listen to what Jo say’s. Don’t listen to her conclusions. Make your own conclusions, based on the things that Jo says, that can be validated.

On the first paragraph above - maybe, but what is it? we have gone from smokejumpers to illegal dope rings, with bits of CIA conspiracies in MLK and Bay of Pigs chucked in, some Masonic flavor, FBI cover-ups and God only knows what else, I can't remember all the various cards that went into building the tower. The "story" might make for a really fun novel, but I'm not sure what else.


On the last sentence I quoted above - Sluggo, that's just the problem. We have had a few years of wild theorising and so far we haven't seen anything that can actually be validated. It is apparently, according to Jo, all up to the FBI to follow up all these wild goose chases. And when they have done some of it and can't validate it, Jo accuses them of cover-up or discrediting her. I think she does a pretty good job of discrediting herself, actually.

But kudos to you for giving her a chance.

Quote

I am currently working on a hypothesis that has Duane was a participant in a search for Cooper in the Orchards area. (I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.) I think Duane became somewhat obsessed with NORJAK after this experience. This may have led to Duane’s “death-bed” revelation.

I already raised the possibility that Duane's "revelation" and his trip with Jo, apparnet notation in the book etc may have stemmed from the fact that he was looking for Cooper long before we all were.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

and guys just calm down a bit please - let's not get more bannings here

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 258]

I feel the need to step in here.

This is tough for me, so please be kind in your response.

I have spent many hours pouring over topo maps with Jo. Unless you have been face-to-face with her, and you have given her freedom to “free associate” about her “beliefs”, you can’t pass judgment on her assertions.

Jo has a story to tell. I don’t think it’s the story she “thinks” it is, but it is an amazing and compelling story just the same. Without making any judgment on Jo’s assertions, I feel like I can make a few observations.

The places Duane took Jo on the “memory lane tour” are astonishingly congruent with the areas I (Sluggo) have previously identified as important areas, all based on my “modified landing zone” and considering the “lost minute” and Flight Crew descriptions.

NOTE: “Astonishingly congruent” does not mean that I attach any significance to the coincidence.

I let Jo tell me (by tracing a path on the topo maps) where she “thought” she and Duane went on their trip. The area she ID’ed as the ‘Tower/shed” is within the area that I have ID’ed as the actual LZ. This is in the Brush Prairie area 2.5 miles SE of the BTG VORTAC. (Near a mobile home park and the Bethel Cemetery). The area she ID’ed as Duane’s “tower/shed was 1.5 miles East of there. A pipeline is 0.6 mile east of that point.

What I am saying is, that when you let Jo show you (on a map) where she “thinks” Duane took her, it is a reasonable fit to what we “think” we know about Cooper’s landing zone.

I anxiously await the results of the “money team”. I think we will find that Cooper landed in the Orchards/Brush Prairie area. IF this is true, it will lend credence to Jo’s story.

I am currently working on a hypothesis that has Duane was a participant in a search for Cooper in the Orchards area. (I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.) I think Duane became somewhat obsessed with NORJAK after this experience. This may have led to Duane’s “death-bed” revelation.



Reply: I will snip everything below but may address it.

I have also suggested Duane became obsessed
for some reason with the Cooper affair and that
was the basis for his death bed 'confession'? if
that's what it was. Jo, however, has specifically
denied that is what happened. Jo has presented a vastly different case, complete with accusations against all kinds of people, the FBI, Larry, ... etc.

Jo has never presented her case as a "what-if" but
as a dead certainty for 13+ years. She now has a witness the Hotel Clerk has sworn an official
statement in behalf of one 'John C Collins' who was Duane's stolen alias, checked into the hotel where the clerk was working, and stayed on or around the time of the hijacking of Flight 305...'

That, my friend, is all Jo Weber's work and her statement of the truth to the best she says she
knows it. That is no Hypothesis! Jo has always
operated on the premise and claimed: "Duane Weber was Dan Cooper, and no other". That is
not a hypothesis but an assertion of fact.

Now, I posted about train tracks west of the Orchards area, but that information was known years ago. Yes there were rumors about an FBI ground search of that area. None of that information is new.

You see details Jo has provided as "Astonishingly congruent”. I see Jo's details as "plausable" and nothing more because we do not have the facts
which would prove Jo's details to be anything more
than a guess. If they were Duane's guess given
to Jo, then they are two guesses removed.

If the whole thing was a delusion on Duanes' part
then anything he said could have been no more than a guess ..... and he and Jo both then join the rest of the guessers in this case!

If Duane was part of a search in the Orchards area,
then that changes everything. Was he physically able to do this, kidney disease and all? For man that
was supposedly very sick, he sure gets around.

And if you remove the shack, and the tracks, and
the easement road/path, then what do you have left of the Jo Weber/Duane Weber story?

That anyone could have harranged the FBI and others the way Jo Weber has for the last 13+ years
is damned near beyond the pale, in my book.

All because she merely wants to know the truth about a husband ?

There must be more to this! Tell me there is!?

Or do I have the wrong impression and cant' read
written when its wrote, as Popeye said?

Georger

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

Snowmman said:
I'll give you a secret goal. I took the goals of this forum to heart, dug up what I thought was a good suspect that met my understanding of a good profile. No not the first one I discussed with you Sluggo.

Ok Snowmman - now you know how I feel, but I don't resort being as offensive as you get when you get our of sorts.

Before this forum gets shut down I want to clarify something. I met Ed Huran in 1978 - he was working for American Income in Co. at that time. The first time I met him he was ill.

Then there was a convention with a date on the back of the pictures 1981. I really don't remember when or where the picture was made - but the pictures in the set are a convention. Duane did go back to American Income for a short period of time later on - so this is where the picture came into things.

There was a high ranking official in some of the pics - who had the nick name Kissy - because he liked to kiss everyone. I remember that but not where the picture was made - location wise.

My first contact with Ed was in Denver - when Duane went for his medication.

The second contact was the convention 1980 or 1981 - location unknown. I did ask Ed how his health was at that time and he seemed to be doing well, but still had problems with his diabetic situation. This is when I took his picture and( he was very reluctant to my doing that.) I had no other exchange with him during the entire convention.

Hope that clears the Ed thing up.


Knutsen or Knutson - I just know it was a name mention to me by Duane when we were in WA before we got to Seattle. He pointed down a road - the said there was a tavern there - this was Dollar Corner. He said we were not going there, but he used to know this man there.

WELL, there is a Tavern there and I was there in 2001. If the guys were not bullshiting me there was a store there which was at one time was owned or run by a man with this name. So Duane didn't lie about that but I could never find anything out about this man.

If someone wants to help that lives in Washington - check the property assessors office for anyone owning property there by that name or the records office for anyone having owned or run a business by that name in Dollars Corner. In 1971 - it may have had 5 building so it wouldn't be a lot of work for someone living there with time on their hands. I will even pay for your gas and time.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

snowmman,


Okay… that’s cool… we are back to having a dialog.

Now:

Regardless of what this thread IS, what I thought it was, was a bunch of people (mostly skydivers), trying to solve NORJAK.

I have come to realize it isn’t what I thought it was. Also, I have been made to feel un-welcome here by some of the skydivers. That’s cool, it’s their forum. If they need me they know where I can be found. I’m okay with that. That’s why I seldom post here anymore.

I was just responding to georger’s post about Jo. She is not the crazy woman she appears to be based on her post on this forum. If all I had to go on was her posts on this forum, I would come to the same conclusion (that she is not stable). This is no secret to Jo, I have discussed it with her ad nauseum.

I just want to solve NORJAK and I don’t think any information should be ignored.

Quote

1) That reality can be infinitely more layered, and sadder, and deserving of respect, than the trivial level we discuss things at here.

I just don’t agree that is “a trivial level”. Maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part.

Quote

2) That the amount of time spent discussing Duane with fantasy facts is insane, and probably Duane's best revenge for imprisoning him.

Duane is dead. He can’t seek revenge.

Quote

3) That regardless of whatever constraints Ckret has on his life, he's not running any kind of show that this forum is involved in. And that has nothing to do with who respects who and why. There's just no show.

I’m not sure if Ckret is at issue here. As you have said before, we are all on equal ground on this forum. However, Ckret gets to look at “FBI work product": and you and I don’t. This is the source of most of my frustration.

Quote

4) This forum has always been just guys (and whoa-men! :) talking smack at the bar. I can't understand why you try to pretend it's not.

Well, if you are right, I’m disappointed. I’m not pretending. If it’s not, then I am delusional (and maybe your comparison to Jo is justified to that extent).

Quote

so in short: I like the quotes.

Zooooom… right over my head. I don’t get the reference.



Sluggo_Monster

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[snowmman 3]

Quote

I just want to solve NORJAK and I don’t think any information should be ignored.

Fair enough Sluggo. I like bantering about this thing.

How do you think you're going to solve Norjak? I'm not being flip. I'm kinda wondering what your plan is.

Tips thru your website? That might work. Maybe tips to a private citizen would be more plentiful than to the FBI.

or ???

(edit) Holding the mirror up to me, I guess I'd say I'd like to get the lists of jumpers I mentioned before, but it seems like that will never happen. My approach is based on an assumption that the FBI people investigation wasn't thorough complete enough at the time, for a lot of good reasons. I have no idea if that's true or not though!

[georger 258]

Quote

uh?
why would I visit Jo?

She may have a story to tell.
If she's not able to tell it Sluggo, and you can, then tell it.
It sounds like you're starting to.

How about creating a web page that outlines it so we can review it without constantly getting into this mode of beating on her over the crumbs she sprinkles.

You want to blame the forum.
Not!

This forum is just a bunch of guys talking smack at the bar. Since when has it been anything but that?

(edit) You've become Jo, Sluggo..i.e. the dramatic whisper "(I have found evidence that the FBI searched this area (in 1972 - 1975) without any publicity.)"
If I guess right, this so-called "evidence" is bullshit.
The FBI searched the whole flight path with multiple planes.

You've got nothing beyond that. If so, show it. Don't be Jo.

Reply. I agree. But... it has been long rumored
there was a search of the Scotton-Orchards area years ago. (and then another search years later!?)

I first got wind of this (years ago) from family at Vancouver. I even got a postcard asking me up!
I laughed receiving the postcard. My wife actually
had to ask: "You arent going are you?". It was
total BS in my life at the time. I then later
confirmed the story through a relative, but
thought to myself: "so what" and here I am today
no worse for not having gone on a wild-goose chase.

Who knows if there really was a search. Who knows what was found. One question at the time settled it
for me. "Grandma, is it a settled area?". She said yes. I laughed and thought: "well then what in hell
would I go for." Obviously others were looking and
would continue to look, and what special skills would I supply? The whole was absurd to me and finally
convinced my grandmother was doing fine, I did
not go up.

Then it came around a second time. 10 years later?
The same thing again... the same area. rumors.
It did finally occur to me something was wrong. I
mean they had looked up near Merwin Lake and now they are down near Scotton Corner and Orchards ...
what is going on? They must have figured out they
searched the wrong place, in the first place! Now
they are on track, finally. And, people will continue to look until ... who knows how long. Those were my
thoughts.

Also let me remind, after Sluggo published his
New flight path someone surfaced here with a rumor
'I hear they are searching the Orchards area' and
I laughed reading that. I waited for somebody to reply with something concrete but nobody did. I
fully expected Sluggo to pursue that immediately
but he didn't. I wondered if he PM'd the guy behind
the scenes and was hot on the trail, to go join the
ground search, but alas nothing more was posted,
and I waited and waited, still nothing. Maybe I should have PM'd the guy to find out what he was talking about. Was he talking about the first ground
search, the second, or a new third. I still don't know.

Sluggo takes this all too seriously, just like I do!
Sluggo will be ok. Or he can go screw his cat!

Geoeger

[skyjack71 0]

Georger states:

Quote

If Duane was part of a search in the Orchards area,
then that changes everything. Was he physically able to do this, kidney disease and all? For man that was supposedly very sick, he sure gets around.

I do not think Duane was part of a search in the Orchards area - he was working in Georgia. I disagree with this - because that would not support all the other things Duane told me and showed me. How could an obsession about Cooper explain how well he knew Washington? How can an obsession materialize in the form of a ticket stub, a plane ticket and a bag? The only answer anyone has for this are that I have to be delusional or I am lieing......

In regards to Duane's health. Please talk to your Dr about Polycystic renal disease and the early stages. This disease is a hereditary disease that moves in stages (they did not understand the stages when he was first diagnosed and the prognosis was always presented as rather grim in those days).

Duane led a very normal life and he was a very strong man - for many yrs. When I met him in 1977 he was doing fine - on medications for high blood pressure, but very strong. The disease made a stage progression during our marriage - at this time in 1986 they placed a shunt in his arm for diaylsis which he did NOT need until 1990. This is how unpredictable the progression is of this disease.

He was a very lucky man - what was a death sentence by most standards in the 60's and very early 70's was a disease that took major and giant steps in the medical field during the next few yrs.

I will agree that in my 13 yrs there are times I have to make a guess just like the rest of you as to the actual incident, but I disagree that I am mis-interperting any of the things Duane said. I am definitely not making it up and I am not delusional.

I am the one who was there by his side over the yrs - all 17 of them. I knew this man and none of you did, but then I didn't really know this man did I? But I knew him better than anyone else. Finding some of his secrets such as the John Collins ID and his admission of having been in jail - helped me to understand him more during those last 5 yrs...but nothing changes what he showed me and what he told me thru out the 17 yrs marriage - things that I do NOT feel that I am mis-interpreting,

In any given incident - everyone will have a different view of certain facts and what these things mean.
I can't take you into my mind and my memory - and inside of this man who told me "I'm Dan Coooper". All I can do is relate what I do know and what I can surmise or guess beyond that. Things I have learned about Duane along with the many strange co-incidences that came to the surface...lead me down only one road. I cannot take the physical evidence out of my memory and I don't know what happened to it. Maybe someone needed to have checked out the man who bought the van. If there was money in that Van would you have told the FBI about it if you had already spent it (remember they didn't talk to him until 2 yrs after he bought the vehicle)?

The friend of Duane's still stands by his story that he told Pasternac in 2000 - that Duane had 50K in cash - several different demominations. There is also a mention of 50K he had put away mentioned in a letter from 1990.
Strange that the money is mentioned in a letter of 1990 ( I did not even read this letter until a few days ago - I just didn't want to go back to that time).

All of this regarding the money, the ticket, the stub, the bag, an unexplained airline ticket charged to the credit card, his doing a disappearing act on his friend for 2 days leaving the friend to run the concession all by himself in Tallahassee - all of this during the time right after Duane obtained a drivers license with his alias on it. If you were me what would you think when he tells you 5 yrs later that he was Dan Cooooper?

How would your have felt if you wife didn't grasp who Dan Cooper was when she was the last person you could tell? If you were in that wife's shoes 1 yr and 2 months later when she accidental finds out who Dan Coooper was - what would you think? What would you believe?

I am not asking any of you to believe Duane was Cooper - but what I have asked for is your help. Such as what Snowmman did regarding Ed Huran. The Ed he found was not the Ed I had been looking for. I had found that Ed before, but you never know when someone will come up with something new.

Anyone is free to make their own case regarding what they think Duane did. I am the one who was there by his side for 17 yrs.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

There was no reason for the FBI to necessarily publicize every area they searched or every little thing they did, I don't see a that an unpublicized search necessarily means it was "secret". Like that thing about a shoe being found that someone mentioned a while ago.

Maybe all it means (unpublicized) is that they didn't find anything...?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Jo just said:

Quote

Knutsen or Knutson - I just know it was a name mention to me by Duane when we were in WA before we got to Seattle. He pointed down a road - the said there was a tavern there - this was Dollar Corner. He said we were not going there, but he used to know this man there.

WELL, there is a Tavern there and I was there in 2001. If the guys were not bullshiting me there was a store there which was at one time was owned or run by a man with this name. So Duane didn't lie about that but I could never find anything out about this man.

Jo: this is different than what you said before. You said before:

Quote

"I have repeatedly said the name Knutson or Knutsen or something similar had a meaning. Smokejumper (only for a short time), try lived in Portland, try worked for Boeing. NOTE: I did say worked for BOEING.

Is there additional information about Boeing, Portland or Smokejumping? Or was that just theorizing you were doing. I can't tell.

(edit) on the Hurand photo

Quote

There was a high ranking official in some of the pics

What exactly is a "high ranking official". Can you name the position/title? I don't see why you threw that in.

[georger 258]

I already raised the possibility that Duane's "revelation" and his trip with Jo, apparnet notation in the book etc may have stemmed from the fact that he was looking for Cooper long before we all were.

Reply> This has legs. A LOT of private citizens were looking for Cooper or any trace of him, beginning 1972 then trailing off into the 1980s. Duane would
not have been alone or unique in this. The discovery of the placard brought one resurgenece of searching. Then the money in 1980 shifted attentions to Tina Bar and its surrounding area -
Tosaw was there again last summer.

Americans are search-happy. The media plays its role in keeping the mystique going. Plus, for many its just fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Americans are search-happy. The media plays its role in keeping the mystique going. Plus, for many its just fun.

yup.

another thing I realized, is that our ability to reach out and touch people, is limited by our search tools. A random guess is that less than 20% of "good" suspects could even be listed by us. (p.s. I kind of laugh at the skydivers who've bragged about being pseudo-investigated! I am whuffo, so I can say that!)

Looking at all the "facts" in the Cooper case, it's easy to make a case for the likelihood that our "tools" can't detect him.

So getting all serious about it, is kind of a joke.

The most likely outcome is not knowing. If it ever becomes known, it's going to be sheer dumb luck, (coupled with some effort). But luck predominating. Or Cooper wanting to be caught. That's kind of my thing. If he's alive, wanting to be caught at his current age.

If dead, then it's just hopeless.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

georger,

Quote

That anyone could have harranged the FBI and others the way Jo Weber has for the last 13+ years is damned near beyond the pale, in my book.

All because she merely wants to know the truth about a husband ?

There must be more to this! Tell me there is!?

Or do I have the wrong impression and cant' read written when its wrote, as Popeye said?

Okay…… [Sluggo taking a deep breath] At the expense of (once again) being accused of being secretive (or conspiratory), just think about your statement.

Okay…. Thought about it?



Jo, did not harrang the FBI (initially). I’m not talking about post 2003.

If the FBI thought for 13 years (it was really only 7) that there might have been (an element of) truth in Jo’s story, isn’t that prima fascia evidence that there was, at the minimum, something that held their interest?

Jo went to Himmelsbach on Doug Pasternak’s suggestion. Himmelsbach “greased the wheels” for Jo to make official contact with the Bureau in 2000. The Bureau came and got personal items (for DNA analysis) in April, 2003 and considered Duane a viable suspect until 2007, after the DNA didn’t match the DNA from 4 unknown individuals on a tie assumed to be left by Cooper and not handled with a “Chain of Custody” consistent with DNA sampling (from 1971 – 2003). I guarantee that the Bureau didn’t “want to know the truth about her husband”. They wanted to close NORJAK.

I have a lot more to say…. But it’s late here (CST) and I’m going to bed.

Try this, ask Jo for permission to allow me to scan some of the data I have about Duane and post it here. If she says yes, then you can make an informed decision about the validity of her claims. Don’t misunderstand me … I don’t think you will come to the same conclusion as Jo, but I think you will find it interesting.

More in an e-mail tomorrow…


Orange1
The term “unpublished” was not meant to imply a conspiracy or “special secrecy”. That area was then (as now) a relatively populated area. The FBI would not have wanted the public pouring over private property looking for $200,000. Remember this was prior to the Ingram find. I should have explained better, but it was a long post and I was trying to be brief. I think we can assume that in all cases, they didn’t find anything.


Sluggo_Monster [Out]

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