DB Cooper

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/5/2021 at 7:46 PM, FLYJACK said:

Rataczak said during his speech at NWA..

"about 28 miles N of Portland he (Cooper) jumped out of the airplane"

 

If the "pressure bump" occurred over the Columbia River Ratazcak would have known it.

THAT clearly indicates Cooper did not land near the Columbia River.

 

Rataczak also said he just talked to Himmelsbach and the money was in a paper wrapper.. (bank bands) when given to Cooper.

That means the TBAR rubber band frags attached were holding the packets in one single rubber banded bundle.

AND the TBAR money likely arrived as one rubber banded bundle of packets..

"If the 'pressure bump' occurred over the Columbia River Rataczak would have known it."  Just exactly how would Rataczak have known this?

Rataczak was at 10,000 feet above the ground which he could not see due to an overcast and several cloud layers under the airliner.  Further, the Columbia River is not even shown on the radio navigation charts that Rataczak was using.

Further, neither Rataczak or Himmelsbach saw the money before it was given to Cooper.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 5:55 AM, Robert99 said:

"If the 'pressure bump' occurred over the Columbia River Rataczak would have known it."  Just exactly how would Rataczak have known this?

Rataczak was at 10,000 feet above the ground which he could not see due to an overcast and several cloud layers under the airliner.  Further, the Columbia River is not even shown on the radio navigation charts that Rataczak was using.

Further, neither Rataczak or Himmelsbach saw the money before it was given to Cooper.

C'mon, you really think Rataczak gets it wrong by about 28 miles..

You think he didn't know where the Airport or Portland was. They saw the glow...

Rataczak said he was flying the plane by hand.

and they would have been very very close the Airport.. they made that turn West around the Airport and over the Western side of Portland. Ratazcak would have known exactly where he was to make that turn.

 

 

Tina saw the money and held it, she confirmed "bank style bands around each package".

 

Guys, it is 2021, not 2011, it is time to give up your old theories and accept reality, the case has moved on. You can create doubt with virtually anything but at some point the evidence becomes overwhelming.

Edited October 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 762]

I was reviewing this video and there was a strange statement that jumped out..

This guy had the Sheriff's notes.. he read the top line on one page "ordered pilot to fly over I5"

We have always been told Cooper never gave path instructions.. the path did generally follow I5, it drifted East N of Portland but followed more closely S of Portland..

Either this was an error or it is true and was held back by the FBI.

It does make sense in that Cooper could potentially know where he was if he could see I5.

He may have ordered the pilot over I5 with the expectation that he could determine his location. Whether he did or not is another question.

 

from 2:45..

 

4:08  "ordered pilot to fly over I5"

 

 

Hard to read but the top line says... ordered pilot to fly over next line I5.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/6/2021 at 8:58 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

Yeah. Uh...pilots on commercial airliners have had several methods to determine their position besides just 'looking out the cockpit windows,' and for a few decades prior to Cooper. If they didn't, airliners would be crashing into each other all the time. You're the guy who believes 305 flew over Tina Bar when everyone else knows that this possibility is not only impossible, but ridiculous at best. 

 

Blevins, so now you are an expert on aircraft navigation.  Do you know which end of a compass points north?

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/6/2021 at 2:00 PM, FLYJACK said:

C'mon, you really think Rataczak gets it wrong by about 28 miles..

You think he didn't know where the Airport or Portland was. They saw the glow...

Rataczak said he was flying the plane by hand.

and they would have been very very close the Airport.. they made that turn West around the Airport and over the Western side of Portland. Ratazcak would have known exactly where he was to make that turn.

 

 

Tina saw the money and held it, she confirmed "bank style bands around each package".

 

Guys, it is 2021, not 2011, it is time to give up your old theories and accept reality, the case has moved on. You can create doubt with virtually anything but at some point the evidence becomes overwhelming.

First, you need to actually read what I posted.  If you have ever seen the glow of a large city at night through several cloud layers, you know that you cannot pinpoint your position from that glow.

And you are saying that the airliner flew "over the Western side of Portland"?  OMG, Blevins has just posted that everyone knows that is impossible and ridiculous.  Who to believe? 

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 5:44 PM, Robert99 said:

First, you need to actually read what I posted.  If you have ever seen the glow of a large city at night through several cloud layers, you know that you cannot pinpoint your position from that glow.

And you are saying that the airliner flew "over the Western side of Portland"?  OMG, Blevins has just posted that everyone knows that is impossible and ridiculous.  Who to believe? 

If Cooper jumped over the Columbia, the pilots would have been in the Portland glow so they would have known where they were. Why are you having such a hard time with this.. you gave it a good shot but it is time to move on... there is no evidence to support your argument. All you have is sowing doubt in contradictory evidence. If that is your strategy I can only assume your goal is not to get to the truth..

Blevins said TBAR.  

The plane flew over the Western side of Portland not West of Portland.

Edited October 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[dudeman17 343]

  On 10/6/2021 at 2:25 PM, FLYJACK said:

I was reviewing this video and there was a strange statement that jumped out..

 

A few points...

Interesting that Donna Elliot says that she heard the plane and that it sounded low.

How does 'east side of Amboy' relate to the flight path(s)?

The guy with the notebook says 'went on to tell'... 'ordered the pilot to fly over I5'. It doesn't necessarily say who gave that order. Is it possible the authorities gave that order, to put Cooper closer to, as Blevins says, more populated areas that would have more cops available for a search?

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 9:55 PM, dudeman17 said:

 

A few points...

Interesting that Donna Elliot says that she heard the plane and that it sounded low.

How does 'east side of Amboy' relate to the flight path(s)?

The guy with the notebook says 'went on to tell'... 'ordered the pilot to fly over I5'. It doesn't necessarily say who gave that order. Is it possible the authorities gave that order, to put Cooper closer to, as Blevins says, more populated areas that would have more cops available for a search?

Donna Elliot is unreliable.. ignore that.

The pilots were not taking orders from anyone other than Cooper,, they were given full authority.

The notes are legit, the question is if they are accurate.

Edited October 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 762]

Here in the notes,,

olive complexion, latin in appearance, black curly hair, normal cut, parted on left.

 

That rules out most higher profile suspects.. 

Everybody has ignored this...

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/6/2021 at 6:48 PM, FLYJACK said:

If Cooper jumped over the Columbia, the pilots would have been in the Portland glow so they would have known where they were. Why are you having such a hard time with this.. you gave it a good shot but it is time to move on... there is no evidence to support your argument. All you have is sowing doubt in contradictory evidence. If that is your strategy I can only assume your goal is not to get to the truth..

Blevins said TBAR.  

The plane flew over the Western side of Portland not West of Portland.

Now you are claiming that Rataczak knew where the Portland City Limits were.  Next, you will probably claim that he could see the REI store in Portland.

Just remember that it was in actual fact a dark and stormy night and the flight crew could not see the ground because of the clouds below them.

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/6/2021 at 5:46 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

I'm pretty darn good with a compass and a map out in the woods. I do know some things about your background (most of the people who are well-known and have been heavily involved in the Cooper case here at Dropzone and at the Cooper Forum...I have run them on US Search at one time or another.) And yes, I do have some respect for you based on what I discovered. Same goes for Georger, at least for the most part.

It is fair to tell everyone that I have reasons I believe the official flight record released by the FBI years ago is accurate. 

One reason is because of the two chase planes out of McChord, whose pilots may not have seen Cooper actually jump, but who were in radar contact with the flight and may have had visual on its lights. 

Another is the radar sources tracking 305. Another reason is because NWA, the FBI, and even ATC had ample time to prepare for what was going to happen next (everyone knew Cooper wanted to go south after 305 left SeaTac Airport.) This was not a touch and go kind of thing. They had hours on the ground to prepare, and planned to catch Cooper after he jumped by rushing law enforcement to any area at the jump point. (Only they didn't count on Cooper jumping over an area that was generally lightly patrolled at night....meaning the little country roads and sparsely (back then) populated areas of Clark and Cowlitz counties. I mean it wasn't like those places had hundreds of cops out there ready to go. Most of them were assigned to the more populated areas near the I-5 freeway. There were probably more USFS rangers out there than actual cops, I imagine. 

 

There is no documentation for what you suggest in the last paragraph above.  

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 11:19 PM, Robert99 said:

Now you are claiming that Rataczak knew where the Portland City Limits were.  Next, you will probably claim that he could see the REI store in Portland.

Just remember that it was in actual fact a dark and stormy night and the flight crew could not see the ground because of the clouds below them.

Now you are just consuming your own credibility. Ridicule isn't an actual argument.

This isn't difficult,, they crew noted the lights of Portland, therefore they knew where Portland was. Rataczak was manually flying the plane which turned right before Portland. He would have known if Cooper jumped over the Columbia.. He said Cooper jumped about 28 miles North. 

So, that is very clear.

You just have no reasonable argument, none. Check Mate.

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/6/2021 at 11:35 PM, FLYJACK said:

Now you are just consuming your own credibility. Ridicule isn't an actual argument.

This isn't difficult,, they crew noted the lights of Portland, therefore they knew where Portland was. Rataczak was manually flying the plane which turned right before Portland. He would have known if Cooper jumped over the Columbia.. He said Cooper jumped about 28 miles North. 

So, that is very clear.

You just have no reasonable argument, none. Check Mate.

What is the source of your claim that Rataczak said "Cooper jumped about 28 miles North" of wherever?  In the printed version of Rataczak's remarks to the NWA retirees, he doesn't give a location.  He only says that he told whoever he was talking to on the radio (presumably the ARINC frequency) to "mark your maps." 

That simple remark also suggests that Rataczak wasn't sure of his location at that moment since the onboard VORTAC data was more accurate in the Portland area than data from a radar station which was 60 or 70 miles away. 

This also admits to the possibility that the airliner was not tracking down the centerline of V-12 but was flying headings to the Canby Intersection area and did not have relevant "to-from" information to any VORTAC.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 11:46 PM, Robert99 said:

What is the source of your claim that Rataczak said "Cooper jumped about 28 miles North" of wherever?  In the printed version of Rataczak's remarks to the NWA retirees, he doesn't give a location.  He only says that he told whoever he was talking to on the radio (presumably the ARINC frequency) to "mark your maps." 

That simple remark also suggests that Rataczak wasn't sure of his location at that moment since the onboard VORTAC data was more accurate in the Portland area than data from a radar station which was 60 or 70 miles away. 

This also admits to the possibility that the airliner was not tracking down the centerline of V-12 but was flying headings to the Canby Intersection area and did not have relevant "to-from" information to any VORTAC.

I have the DVD of his presentation, it is about 1.5 hours long..

He said.. the exact quote.

"about 28 miles North of Portland he (Cooper) jumped out of the airplane"

We both know if Cooper jumped over the Columbia based on the "pressure bump" timing Rataczak would have known.

The pressure bump could not have occurred over/near the Columbia based on Rataczak's statement.

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[ParrotheadVol 70]

  On 10/6/2021 at 5:46 PM, RobertMBlevins said:

. I do know some things about your background (most of the people who are well-known and have been heavily involved in the Cooper case here at Dropzone and at the Cooper Forum...I have run them on US Search at one time or another.)

 

That's creepy as hell. 

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/7/2021 at 12:08 AM, FLYJACK said:

I have the DVD of his presentation, it is about 1.5 hours long..

He said.. the exact quote.

"about 28 miles North of Portland he (Cooper) jumped out of the airplane"

We both know if Cooper jumped over the Columbia based on the "pressure bump" timing Rataczak would have known.

The pressure bump could not have occurred over/near the Columbia based on Rataczak's statement.

 

Again, Rataczak did not have x-ray eyes to see through those cloud layers that were beneath the airliner and did not know what terrain they were over.

If Rataczak means 28 miles north of the Portland International Airport when Cooper jumped, then the so-called FBI flight path lists the airliner as being at that point at 8:07 PM.  So his statement does NOT even agree with the FBI flight path.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/7/2021 at 5:36 AM, Robert99 said:

Again, Rataczak did not have x-ray eyes to see through those cloud layers that were beneath the airliner and did not know what terrain they were over.

If Rataczak means 28 miles north of the Portland International Airport when Cooper jumped, then the so-called FBI flight path lists the airliner as being at that point at 8:07 PM.  So his statement does NOT even agree with the FBI flight path.

Nice try, it was an estimate he said "about". I measured it 28 miles from Portland is about 8:10.  Rataczak also praised the FBI calculation of the quadrangle for the drop zone..

It is over, you gave it a shot and challenging things is a good thing and part of the process but part of the process is accepting when you are wrong.

There is no question or doubt about it. Rataczak supported the FBI LZ,, and since the crew saw the lights of Portland they knew where Portland was so they would have known if the "pressure bump" was over the Columbia. This is simple stuff. 

I have given you the evidence, if you want to ignore it that is up to you but it diminishes your credibility, some Cooper sleuths don't care about credibility.

 

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/7/2021 at 7:09 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

We cannot be sure if the pressure bump was caused when Cooper dropped the airstairs, or when he actually jumped and the resulting bounce from the stairs being relieved of his weight caused it. I doubt Cooper dropped the stairs and then just ran to the end and jumped.

Yes, we can,,,

From Ratazcak's presentation..  Ratazcak was told that the stairs dropping would cause the nose to pitch 3 degrees,,, he was hand flying the plane at the time and confirmed that this actually happened when the stairs dropped. If the "pressure bump" occurred when the stairs dropped and the nose pitched he would have known it. So, the "pressure bump" was later and based on crew statements, comms and the sled test it is a virtual certainty that the so called "pressure bump" was caused by Cooper leaving the plane.

The only question is where exactly was the plane along the flightpath at about 8:10-8:13...

Edited October 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[ParrotheadVol 70]

  On 10/7/2021 at 5:32 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

 

Here is what is creepy:  When you ask me a question about Sheridan Peterson and his book...and then return two weeks after I gave you the answer and say zip about it. 

Actually, there is nothing creepy about that. I asked a question, you answered it and that was it. No need for further questions or dialogue.

Edited October 7, 2021 by ParrotheadVol

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/6/2021 at 2:25 PM, FLYJACK said:

I was reviewing this video and there was a strange statement that jumped out..

This guy had the Sheriff's notes.. he read the top line on one page "ordered pilot to fly over I5"

We have always been told Cooper never gave path instructions.. the path did generally follow I5, it drifted East N of Portland but followed more closely S of Portland..

Either this was an error or it is true and was held back by the FBI.

It does make sense in that Cooper could potentially know where he was if he could see I5.

He may have ordered the pilot over I5 with the expectation that he could determine his location. Whether he did or not is another question.

 

from 2:45..

 

4:08  "ordered pilot to fly over I5"

 

 

Hard to read but the top line says... ordered pilot to fly over next line I5.

 

 

I got some pushback on this,,

Here is what it appears,,,  if Cooper ordered the pilot to fly over I5, due to conditions the pilots may not have been able to see the I5 lights all the way. North of Portland the path drifts miles East of I5 but South of Portland they were closer to I5. So, they may have been trying to follow I5 but couldn't see it the entire time..

The takeaway is that Cooper (if true) wanted to and expected to use I5 to determine his position, this is a basic aviator technique for night navigation..  Ultimately, Cooper may not have been able to see the I5 lights, we don't know.

Edited October 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/7/2021 at 3:49 PM, FLYJACK said:

I got some pushback on this,,

Here is what it appears,,,  if Cooper ordered the pilot to fly over I5, due to conditions the pilots may not have been able to see the I5 lights all the way. North of Portland the path drifts miles East of I5 but South of Portland they were closer to I5. So, they may have been trying to follow I5 but couldn't see it the entire time..

The takeaway is that Cooper (if true) wanted to and expected to use I5 to determine his position, this is a basic aviator technique for night navigation..  Ultimately, Cooper may not have been able to see the I5 lights, we don't know.

The above is nonsense.

Flyjack, the airliner was using VORTACs for radio navigation and not I-5.  And based on the weather the airliner was experiencing, it is highly unlikely that they could even see I-5 or any other ground objects in the first place.

[FLYJACK 762]

  On 10/7/2021 at 5:21 PM, Robert99 said:

The above is nonsense.

Flyjack, the airliner was using VORTACs for radio navigation and not I-5.  And based on the weather the airliner was experiencing, it is highly unlikely that they could even see I-5 or any other ground objects in the first place.

This is why you are irrelevant.

Just from your statement it is clear you have no comprehension of these issues.

You fail to understand that when the crew noted they could see the lights of Portland that it means they knew where Portland was.

You fail to understand that if Cooper ordered the pilots to fly over I5 that doesn't mean they did or were able to at all times.

 

and you run to Shutter's site and make completely false statements.. to gain support. Why do you people always find it necessary to make false statements, are you that insecure.

You people are nuts. 

FACT: the Sheriff's notes say the pilots were ordered to fly over I5. I never claimed they were visually following I5, YOU ARE LYING.  We don't know if they were or could.

FACT: Rataczak said Cooper jumped ABOUT 28 miles North of Portland that is ABOUT 8:10. Ratazcak has said elsewhere that Cooper jumped at 8:10. 

 

ABOUT 28 miles North of Portland is not even close to the Columbia River...  Rataczak was flying the plane by hand, he would know the difference.

 

Herding cats would be easier..

Edited October 7, 2021 by FLYJACK

[georger 258]

  On 10/7/2021 at 5:28 PM, FLYJACK said:

This is why you are irrelevant.

Just from your statement it is clear you have no comprehension of these issues.

You fail to understand that when the crew noted they could see the lights of Portland that it means they knew where Portland was.

You fail to understand that if Cooper ordered the pilots to fly over I5 that doesn't mean they did or were able to at all times.

 

and you run to Shutter's site and make completely false statements.. to gain support. Why do you people always find it necessary to make false statements, are you that insecure.

You people are nuts. 

FACT: the Sheriff's notes say the pilots were ordered to fly over I5. I never claimed they were visually following I5, YOU ARE LYING.  We don't know if they were or could.

FACT: Rataczak said Cooper jumped ABOUT 28 miles North of Portland that is ABOUT 8:10. Ratazcak has said elsewhere that Cooper jumped at 8:10. 

 

ABOUT 28 miles North of Portland is not even close to the Columbia River...  Rataczak was flying the plane by hand, he would know the difference.

 

Herding cats would be easier..

Moreover - as TK believes, there is no way money can appear on a sandbar near Vancouver without some intervening story: Cooper survived and walked south, Cooper died but his money was discovered ... the plane did not fly over Tena Bar, the money did not fall at or near Tena Bar, . . .  that gap may never be filled. Given the facts currently understood, Cooper did not jump over or land in the Columbia River. (nothing supports a Columbia landing. Tosaw tried but could not get that theory to work!)

Edited October 7, 2021 by georger

[dudeman17 343]

  On 10/7/2021 at 2:25 PM, FLYJACK said:

Yes, we can,,,

From Ratazcak's presentation..  Ratazcak was told that the stairs dropping would cause the nose to pitch 3 degrees,,, he was hand flying the plane at the time and confirmed that this actually happened when the stairs dropped. If the "pressure bump" occurred when the stairs dropped and the nose pitched he would have known it. So, the "pressure bump" was later and based on crew statements, comms and the sled test it is a virtual certainty that the so called "pressure bump" was caused by Cooper leaving the plane.

 

 

I have to agree with that. The crew noted when the stair door was opened, and they noted the pressure bump, and they were separate events. Any movement by Cooper down or up the stairs would be a gradual change in the leverage of his weight on them. The one event that would cause a sudden change, and the 'bump', would be his jumping. And that was re-created in the tests.

[Robert99 55]

  On 10/8/2021 at 3:46 AM, RobertMBlevins said:

So stop asking me questions then. You only stop by Dropzone for one reason, and we both know the reason. I don't even KNOW you. Nor would I care to. 

Blevins, are you saying that your private dick hasn't checked out ParrotheadVol?  Are you trying to give PV an inferiority complex?  Why doesn't he deserve to be vetted like everyone else?