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Orange1 0
I don't know what the whuffo choices are (maybe expand?) but, you raise a good point. I don't know how Cooper thought, but one way would be
#1 Getting caught is worse than dying, so prioritize no-get-caught
#2 Then prioritize staying alive.
How would you rationalize people who rob banks and shoot it out with cops? That sounds kind of whuffoish, but it happens. Basicallly at some level they have to accept death as a one reasonable outcome.
re whuffo choices, directly in response to 377's observations:
His choices related to gear scream non jumper to me. He made several choices, all consistent with zero skydiving experience. That's what makes Galen's #1 suspect (Wolfgang) doubtful as Cooper. He had lots of parachuting experience, too much to have made the gear choices Cooper made, unless he was trying to conceal his knowledge by deliberately making whuffo-like choices.
re the hard pull rig + dummy reserve. An experienced jumper may have gone for the first, possibly accidentally (I am not sure we have established whether there was any way to know it was a 28" and not a 26" canopy in the rig) but to take a dummy reserve? That is just plain dumb for an experienced jumper.
377 explained well the thought process that sometimes goes to pieces - a jumper expecting a normal pull and being confronted with a hard pull does not always do what he should, even with experience. I've had one hard pull and it wasn't fun

As for the shootout analogy, I dunno - maybe the thinking there is, they have guns, we have guns, chances are even. The chances between you and the ground without a working parachute are very much anything but even.
ltdiver 3
How would you rationalize people who rob banks and shoot it out with cops? That sounds kind of whuffoish, but it happens.
I liken it to the war in Iraq. They knew how to start it but didn't think the exit strategy out very thoroughly...and what they've come up with is flawed.
ltdiver
Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon
snowmman 3
(I am not sure we have established whether there was any way to know it was a 28" and not a 26" canopy in the rig) but to take a dummy reserve? That is just plain dumb for an experienced jumper.
(edit)
There's nothing that says he took the dummy reserve. All we know is that it's gone. We seem to agree it can't attach to a NB-6. So how would it have been "taken" ???
on NB-6 choice w/no reserve:
Night jump. Windy. If the main fouls, what are the odds of successfully clearing it and deploying the reserve? I figure the odds of living are pretty much close to the same, with or without the chest...the chest benefit is WAY in the noise?...like past the noise of having jump suit/shoes/altimeter etc?
Prove me wrong with actual stats?
And this stuff about knowing 28' vs 26'
Ask the same question about the Pioneer. Do we even know the canopy size that was stuffed in the Pioneer? And how could you tell?
I have no problem with there being a whuffo argument.
It's just no one's making it well, in a way I can understand. And if I don't understand it, I can't see why Ckret would understand it..
Is there like a secret whuffo flowchart that can't be revealed?
look at this old post from Ckret:
Now the choice of the back chute and this is where I am surprised no one caught this. He had two choices, an NB6 with no padding and no sleeve or a fully padded Pioneer sport chute with a sleeve. If you had any knowledge of the challenges you were facing with the jump you were about to make, why would you choose the NB6, you wouldn't.
We have someone making decisions on a sleeve and padding?
Is the sleeve capability visible from the outside? And this padding: does it affect the pain/injury? No way...it only affects minor chafing. (edit) I can further guess that is why it doesn't show up in military emergency rigs of that era.
1200 lbs (or more? 2x that?) transferred to a human body thru webbing straps...the force you feel depends on the amount of skin the straps are covering and whether the straps bend over etc. Padding is going to mean nothing for big forces? All that matters is webbing surface area and where it is on the body.
Right? Correct me if wrong. I'm going nuts over these charmin and soft padding arguments and sleeves you can't see?
If the NB-6 looked like it was stuffed bigger than the Pioneer, I'd guess that it had a larger canopy, since canopies were likely all rounds, and used similar weight nylon?
georger 264
re hard ripcord pulls...
There is more to it than just pull force needed to dislodge the pins from the cones. When a lot of force is applied and nothing happens the jumper's adrenaline spikes and he starts to panic a bit. AM I PULLING ON THE WRONG THING? Add night, tumbling, cold, scared, wet and you have a situation that can spin out of control really fast. It can cause a jumper to discard the ripcord handle and start pulling on webbing or something else that is not going to open the container flaps no matter how hard you pull.
Sure, the smart thing is to just pull harder. Even a so called hard pull isn't normally going to take an impossible amount of force... but that logic can escape the mind of a panicky jumper.
I had two VERY hard pulls on surplus gear back in 68. I was jumping a sleeved C 9 packed in an unextended surplus rental rig. Even though I was prepared for the second one, it still was scary. I was taught to give it two tries then go for my reserve. I probably gave it five and might have stupidly gone to a dozen had it not opened on the fifth, who knows? That is not clear thinking. Fear clouds good judgment. A hard pull definitely starts the adrenaline going. It can spiral downhill fast from that point.
377
Im replying to you and WoldRiver.
Would it be fair to assume that a WWII generation vet would be more apt to expect and survive a hard
pull situation vs. a later Vietnam vet? Im trying
to key in on generational experience, expectations, and gear...
Where would the likely source for chutes be at Seattle, in Coop's situation? What types of chutes could he expect to be given? (McChord? AF chutes?)
Georger
georger 264
River,
"If the FBI provides the chutes they are untraceable."
Really, i know what you checked out of the library last month, and it's late two days. The FBI knew exactly what Cooper had because we gave it to him. If you wanted something untraceable you certainty wouldn't want to use something the FBI gave to you. You have know idea how we would monkey with it before you would get it in your hands on it.
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=93063
Even in 71 the USAF had reasonably small solid state beacon transmitters for chutes, like the URT 21.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190
"Cooper got rid of those with his Capt Video field strength meter .... or, they shreded as they went through the fans with Cooper."
I actually have a URT 21. They have a transmitter activation lanyard that starts the transmitter only after the canopy deploys (or when you get seat separation in an ejection setup). A field strength meter wouldn't help. It is in stealth mode until that lanyard is pulled. It transmits a swept audio tone on 243.0 MHz AM.
377
You have just provided material for somebody's forth coming book.
Jo even missed this!
georger 264
re hard ripcord pulls...
There is more to it than just pull force needed to dislodge the pins from the cones. When a lot of force is applied and nothing happens the jumper's adrenaline spikes and he starts to panic a bit. AM I PULLING ON THE WRONG THING? Add night, tumbling, cold, scared, wet and you have a situation that can spin out of control really fast. It can cause a jumper to discard the ripcord handle and start pulling on webbing or something else that is not going to open the container flaps no matter how hard you pull.
Sure, the smart thing is to just pull harder. Even a so called hard pull isn't normally going to take an impossible amount of force... but that logic can escape the mind of a panicky jumper.
I had two VERY hard pulls on surplus gear back in 68. I was jumping a sleeved C 9 packed in an unextended surplus rental rig. Even though I was prepared for the second one, it still was scary. I was taught to give it two tries then go for my reserve. I probably gave it five and might have stupidly gone to a dozen had it not opened on the fifth, who knows? That is not clear thinking. Fear clouds good judgment. A hard pull definitely starts the adrenaline going. It can spiral downhill fast from that point.
377
ok. Then I'm ready to say no-pull. So if we have no-pull and the money find, and the testimony and flight path, it's pretty easy to come up with a scenario that ties it all together.
I've provided no-body-found drowning cases in the Columbia already. What are we missing? Does the money find not align with randomness?
We are not missing a thing Snowmman. A no pull certainly is a likely outcome, but not a satisfying one. I am still hoping that Cooper survived.
377
Dont pull yet! Sluggo is working on 'experience' (he
said). Just a reminder...
Well Jo, as I recall the boarding pass was actually one of the ticket leaflets (terminology?) that got pulled out the ticket and placed in a boarding pass folder. Can you prove for sure your version is right? Can you prove for sure that even if your version is right, that Cooper did not do what many passengers did and leaf through all the pages in his folder to check it was all correct (remember things were handwritten in those days and people could and did get incorrectly filled out coupons)? You have absolutely no way of saying for sure there were no fingerprints on it and surely even the small chance of it is worth investigating?
(Unless of course you have a vested interest in NOT wanting the fingerprints checked... in case it's yet another non-match for Duane?)
All I did was comment that they have not reported any prints on the ticket todate - I would think after 37 yrs - if there were prints we would know about it unless they have a new techinque they can apply. It was an innocent remark just like everyone else - I have a right tp speculate and to have an opinion. I am only making a judgement by the copy I held in my hands.
Especially if Cooper had a one-leg ticket, there is a good chance there would have been fingerprints on it as it would have been the top coupon.
If there were prints we would know about them by now. Ask Ckret.
As for the ticket surely someone has an old 1971 N.W. ticket lying around. That would end this part of the ticket thing.
Ckret you are married right? You and Lisa Marie are becoming an item....just part of the job - huh?
Seriously? Your delusional rantings aren't getting the response you want them to anymore, so you personally attack a Federal Agent's ethics?
======================
Ms. Aggie - I was just kidding aroundCopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 264
If I recall correctly, the professional consensus earlier
this year was if he got it open he had a nice ride
and landed... maybe injured a bit. The arguement was, th reserve was irrlevant for all practical purposes. This was the professional opinion. Now,
if Cooper had the same perspective then ... the
reserves are irrelvant for him also. We have good testimony the reserves were not relevant for a number of reason .... ?
This touchy-feely stuff is a little obtuse for me.
Doesnt take much of a touch/feel if he's a pro.
Simply looking and a brief grab - thats enough.
No big deal and why announce it with Tina there?
(The dutiful Tina probably would have called Scott
and said 'turn this plane around right now - we need
a good chute! And that would have been done. The
last thing Cooper needs at the time! It would have clued everyone in on his skills?)
If the experts are right then the next real need is packing that money and the canopy bag offers an
alternative. Im only speculating.
Im going to go way back to Tina and Ckret saying
he dawned the NB6 with ease, like he had done it before. That is rather striking if true. ???
Did he have the coat on or not, under the chute? Tina's testimony counts here. Ckret still hasnt
answered that squarely.
Lastly, and I almost hate to say this but, I wonder about Institutional Goggles, as a counterpart to
Sluggo's Cultural Goggles. I think some people have a vested interest in making Cooper look dumb and
inept. It might come as welcome (to some) to suggest the Columbia swallowed Cooper up, and thus 'he got away dead'. It could also happen to a professional.
I think we have to be careful here and keep our goggles defogged - before jumping to conclusions.
No Jesus on the Goggles.
Georger
georger 264
I have to agree that it would have been near impossible for Cooper to close an unextended NB6 container with a 28 ft C 9 canopy without tools of some kind. TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT. Tight enough to almost guarantee a very difficult pull. You could rig cord to serve as a closing aid, but there is no evidence that he even opened the NB6 container.
His choices related to gear scream non jumper to me. He made several choices, all consistent with zero skydiving experience. That's what makes Galen's #1 suspect (Wolfgang) doubtful as Cooper. He had lots of parachuting experience, too much to have made the gear choices Cooper made, unless he was trying to conceal his knowledge by deliberately making whuffo-like choices.
377
Would you deliberately make a whuffo-like choice to hide the fact that you are a jumper, to the extent that it endangers your life on a skydive ?
and on the other side, who best could handle mistakes or apparent mistakes and take up the
slack?
Vets learned to handle and absorb mistakes,
precisely. They invented SNAFU.
I had an uncle who was a parartrooper in WWII
(Marine) who got mad at me one day talking
about Cooper, and suggesting he had died due to lack of skills! My uncle told me directly (calling up
his own experience as a paratrooper) 'you dont
know what the ___ you are talking about'. My
uncle was thinking in terms of his own experience and that of thousands like him jumping into war zones in all kinds of conditions.
Make no mistake. My uncle thought Cooper was
a pure criminal. But, when it came to the subject of
parachuting, he was very defesive in Cooper's behalf just on general principles gained firsthand in WWI?
My uncle and some of his unit were captured in Belgium after a jump, then ceased control of the
Germans, fought their way out, and escaped...
Thse guys were tough. If Cooper was one of them
or even remotely like them, then .... we cant take
anything for granted.
Georger
georger 264
Reply: with Excellence.
Georger
377 22
Yeah, those of us who do not have an agenda here think "FBI guy" has acquitted himself with grace under fire here.
An unusual but apparently correct use of the word "acquitted" above.
Remember when Sara Palin assembled her own private ethics commission and "acquitted herself" on Troopergate? I got a huge laugh out of that one.
Jo on the other hand has convicted Duane of the Cooper hijack. A number of posters here are representing Duane on appeal on the basis that there was insufficient evidence to support Jo's guilty verdict.
Ckret is hinting at something a few posts back. I smell Hollywood. I don't see him being interviewed by Oprah or Letterman, so what does that leave us as a possibility? Dancing with the Stars?
377
Orange1 0
[An unusual but apparently correct use of the word "acquitted" above.
Some of us learnt the Queen's English


Orange1 0
and on the other side, who best could handle mistakes or apparent mistakes and take up the
slack?
Yeah, but... I dunno, Georger. Ask anyone who's seen someone come off second best to the ground, and see if they are prepared to take a risk like that? Remember skydiving is about minimizing risks, it's not a death wish like many seem to think...
Orange1 0
If there were prints we would know about them by now. Ask Ckret.
IIRC Ckret has said there are a pile of prints from various items that they simply haven't been able to match to anyone - not sure if any of those come from the ticket. (But obviously none of them match Duane's, and for those of us who don't buy conspiracy theories about changing prints, especially when one of the bases of that theory has been shown to be false, this also reduces the likelihood of Duane being Cooper.)
I don't know what the whuffo choices are (maybe expand?) but, you raise a good point. I don't know how Cooper thought, but one way would be
#1 Getting caught is worse than dying, so prioritize no-get-caught
#2 Then prioritize staying alive.
How would you rationalize people who rob banks and shoot it out with cops? That sounds kind of whuffoish, but it happens. Basicallly at some level they have to accept death as a one reasonable outcome.
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