Recommended Posts
Wow! You guys were busy last night.
Here are my comments/responses to all this traffic.
snowmman,
I think you're operating under the myth that there was extensive searching. There obviously was by the Third Armored Cavalry up by Ariel. (4 months later on)
No, the statement has nothing to do with who did the search, or when the search was done (up to about 8 months to 1 year). A fresh grave is a fresh grave (by my estimation, and I’m pulling this right out of my a**) for about a year. The soil in that area is varied, no clay, but just about everything else from sand to what I call “Moon Dust” (volcanic ash). There is one place (that I can think of) that you could dig using rudimentary tools (a flat rock, a broken limb, etc.). That would be in a fresh grave. I'm still looking at the things that might have been missed. I’ll let others talk about probabilities, etc. That’s why I asked you and georger to get involved. C’mon humor me, I’m old, weak, and losing my memory.
377,
If he were that sharp he would have had a VHF radio to monitor the critical comms between the crew and the outside world, especially on the ground where and ambush could have been in the making.
And what makes you think he didn’t? What was he doing in the lavatory? Why did he not want Tina to see him? As a parallel to the “Negative Hypothesis” discussion; “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”
georger,
with a quote saying it was based on slight changes in altitude from the flight recorder.
I have often wondered if this was a typo or maybe a mis-interpretation of an interview. The word “altitude” makes a whole lot less sense (to me) than the word “attitude.” I defer to quade or anyone who has flown big jets. I don’t see a jumper changing the altitude much (if at all), but I can see the A/C needing re-trimmed after someone left the A/C at a large moment arm from the center of gravity datum (or Center of Lift moment arm). Anybody out there have weight and balance experience with a 727?
snowmman,
Here's what's critical. I'll copy the paragraph exactly:
page 57
The pilot in the plane following saw the ladder spring upwards, almost touching the fuselage - like a diving board it sprang up, almost back to its closed position. Soderlind and Manning felt the sudden burst of pressure against their ears and the gauges verified the sudden burst of pressure. It was exactly the same experience reported by the hijacked crew at 8:13
Here’s something interesting. In the interview I quoted yesterday Rataczak goes on to say:
"the stairs immediately reacted by coming abruptly closed, and we could feel a huge pressure bump in our ears [Moving both hands near his ears as if to block them] So, I quickly got on to the Air Traffic Control Center and said; ‘I think our friend just took leave of us.’”
Anyone seen that reference in the transcripts? Scott (or someone) said something similar as they were landing at RNO. Transcript page 233 @ around 23:13 PST the pilot uses similar language; “…Be advised that our passenger took leave of us somewhere between here and Seattle…”
So years later, Rataczak says he notified ATCC at around 20:13 that the HJ was gone, he also talks as if he knew what caused the pressure bump. But on November 24th, 1971, he only knew the HJ left somewhere between SEA and RNO.
I guess my point is that all these published accounts are at best “un-informative” and at worst “confusing and obstructive.”
C K R E T ,
Snowmman posted:
Just noticed this:
"Inside the 727 there were cameras trained on the needles of the pressure gauges. Soderlind brought the plane to the same altitude and speed of the hijacked plane at the 8:13 time"
If Ckret could find those photographs, the plane folk here might have some good data...since we've been discussing those gauges.
Pictures of them during the drop test would be cool.
I also note that Soderlind and Manning are referenced as feeling the pressure bump in their ears. But they weren't on 305. It doesn't say Anderson felt it.
It'd be interesting to read the report that quotes what Anderson said. I'm not even sure he was on the flight. It says Soderlind "was able to obtain the services of the same flight engineer, Harold Anderson"
I think they may have made up their interpretation of the pressure bump? We really need the full report of the test drop.
What’s the chance of us getting our hands on some of this “test-drop” material?
snowmman,
Goes on to suggest he probably had boarded the flight before, and aborted the hijack when he couldn't get the seating he wanted. Just speculation.
The flight would have been “Flight 305” each day, but the A/C would not have necessarily been N467US.
Also, from Benson:
“There are two fixed oxygen systems, one for the cockpit and one for the cabin. In addition there may be up to five portable oxygen bottles. One in the cockpit and four located throughout the cabin.”
I don’t know if throughout means “equally distributed randomly” or “equally distributed in fixed locations” I would go with fixed locations and the same location aircraft to aircraft (I don’t think you would want the stews searching for them in an emergency.)
Those are my opinions, yours may vary.
Sluggo_Monster
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
Orange1 0
Maybe Cooper just said "Yes I know" to everything.
Good observation.. the "yes I know" response is very common in children of a certain age, but also of adults who don't like to be perceived as knowing less than they think they are supposed to.
Then again, maybe he just did know it all... which would suggest a recce of some sort. Still, when you point out, and respond:
Since not every 727 carried oxygen bottles in that same compartment and since no one had seen him open it and look inside, Tina concluded that he must have found out about it prior to that flight"
Goes on to suggest he probably had boarded the flight before, and aborted the hijack when he couldn't get the seating he wanted.
I'm not quite sure how that conclusion follows (do I read right that it was Tosaw's conclusion, not yours) - or have I missed something along the way that indicated he wanted to be sitting at the oxygen? (he had after all asked for the plane to be flown depressurized which should preclude need for oxygen)
377 22
Some time ago, a panel was assembled and
recommended to Larry Carr with the idea of examining the money.
The panel consists of recognised experts in
different areas of forensics and analysis, who will examine the money or specimens from the money cache. The analyses will be conducted in laboratory
environments equiped with the latest in technology,
including chemical, spectroscopic, and even electron
microscopy (if necessary).
Wish Richard Feynman were still alive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
No particular relevant expertise on this matter, but he'd have livened the process up and got a lot of publicity.
They say "money talks". Hope it speaks to us here, perhaps translated by a mass spectrometer or some other analytical instrument. Can't wait for the results to be released.
377
377
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites