georger 257
Quoteits common sense if they they carry a heavier load
the lines would be thicker ?Quote
Not always.
The lines on a 23' reserve are thicker in some instances than those on a 35' T-10. The T-10 being rated at almost double the load capacity. The lines on a 28' are exactly the same as on a 35' -
The reason is there are more suspension lines on the T-10, more lines = more strength.
The material the lines are constructed of also is a factor...these days there are 700lb lines that are less than 1/2 the thickness of older 550.
In the olden daze different manufactures used somewhat different materials to achieve the same end...without knowing who made what & when you're not going to get a lot of 'experts' to say such & such a parachute was X material instead of Y ~ just by looking at a picture.
But that's just my opinion, you obviously know more about parachute manufacturing & capabilities than most.
Well there you go ... you make a valid pojnt! Im no
expert on parachutes ... never claimed I was!
sure ... more lines could take up the increased stress
placed on fewer thicker lines. What do I know about
this? NOTHING.
Robert99 55
QuoteQuoteQuote
Robert99 replies:
Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?
Robert99
ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!
I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.
ONE of the few things that explain a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop.
Jo, I doubt very much if the Smoke Jumpers needed a parachute that could handle 400 pounds.
Remember that Smoke Jumpers were for jumping into remote areas with minimal equipment in order to fight the fire until more personnel could arrive by land. So Smoke Jumpers at the start of a fire would basically be few in numbers and using only tools that they could carry and use by hand. Of course, those tools were dropped in by small parachutes but they sure didn't weigh 400 pounds.
Robert99
Robert,
I do not take sides in this thread nor do I think Cooper was a smokejumper. The skills sets need are not the same (Having said that I will now be proven wrong in the future
I only write about that of which I know factually. I know about parachute equipment drops into rough terrain and elsewise. The US Forest service did it way back when including in the early days. Which if you had bothered to check the source I gave you, you would realize
Your 400 lb parachute theory is another issue. You make this chute sound large. In fact a round of this size for cargo is rather smallish.
I large round in the cargo realm like a G-12 is over 60 feet in diameter and can carry upwards of 2500 pounds. A parachute the size of a T10 is speced at 360 pounds but was capable of doing over 400. I have no expierence with a T5 or T7 but they would have to be similiar in design. Remember a parachute has to carry its own weight in Harness as well as payload etc to the ground. Smoke jumpers used cargo packages. Even in the olden days. Tools, radios, food and water weigh a bit and its easy to get to 400 pounds.
Is this a smoke jumper chute? I dont know and wouldnt till examining it. Smoke jumping went on in this area. Both the US forestry service and the US Army did it a bit during WW2. Was Cooper a Smoke jumper I dont know but I doubt it. I just hate seeing miss information presented as fact.
Cheers
Propblast, I also hate to see misinformation presented as fact and that is why I stand by my original statement.
I have also had the privilege of seeing extremely heavy equipment dropped from C-141s. This happened by chance a decade or more ago as I was heading to LA along I-10.
As I neared Desert Center, CA, two C-141s dropped what appeared from my distance to be either tanks or APCs on the dry lake bed just northeast of Desert Center. Each of these pieces of equipment had about 6 or 7 quite large parachutes.
I imagine that the total loads were the largest that could be dropped by C-141s. And the equipment appeared to make reasonable landings on the lake bed. I would call that a serious cargo drop.
Robert99
mrshutter45 21
377 22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1izGSMKqskY
377
georger 257
Quotewould this photo help decide the type of material?
looks like an old tent to me - circus tent?
bet it smells ? kerosene and bees wax?
like the stuff I and Grandpa built a kayak out of
when I was a kid ... launched it into the icebergs on
the Columbia. ...
I AM JUST JOKING BLEVINS! NO NEED FOR A DISSERTATION ON GEORGER'S SIXTH GRADE LEVEL INTELLIGENCE ETC..NON ENGLISH SPEAKER ETC ... WAS BORN AND RAISED IN WASHINGTON ...WASNYT SELECTED FOR DACHAU ...
mrshutter45 21
QuoteCargo drop mishaps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1izGSMKqskY
377
look out for that.......................truck
guy yells out "don't land on my truck"
Robert99 55
QuoteQuoteCargo drop mishaps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1izGSMKqskY
377
look out for that.......................truck
guy yells out "don't land on my truck"
And the paratrooper had a square canopy. Obviously he did not plan far enough ahead.
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QuoteQuoteQuotewould this photo help decide the type of material?
looks like an old tent to me - circus tent?
bet it smells ? kerosene and bees wax?
like the stuff I and Grandpa built a kayak out of
when I was a kid ... launched it into the icebergs on
the Columbia. ...
I AM JUST JOKING BLEVINS! NO NEED FOR A DISSERTATION ON GEORGER'S SIXTH GRADE LEVEL INTELLIGENCE ETC..NON ENGLISH SPEAKER ETC ... WAS BORN AND RAISED IN WASHINGTON ...WASNYT SELECTED FOR DACHAU ...
Okay, no dissertations. Besides, how could I possibly respond to that anyway?
I'm going to invite Bruce Smith and yes...Meyer Louie, on a camping trip this summer where we discuss the case under the harsh eye of the video cam. It's on the shore of the prettiest little lake you ever saw.
When we're not doing that, probably eating, target shooting, fishing, etc. Radio reception is good up there, too. Even cell phones work, although the place is a good fifteen miles or more from the main highway.
LOL...this is also the place where I was forced to kill a charging bear that had been previously wounded by some dumb poacher. (Bear was NOT in season when this happened)
I don't have an RV, but I do have two big tents, chairs, private toilet/shower, kitchen setup, lots of tarps, and converters so you can even watch movies or do video games if you want. I quit totally 'roughing it' after the time someone talked me into a fifty-mile (each WAY) hike that had to be done in three days. Then I said enough.
Some pictures attached.
__________________________________________________
Blevins: Where's the lake? Is it up past Lake Cushman? I backpacked up past that area one summer, on the Olympic Peninsula, when I did stand exams for the USFS. The green tint on the water is great.
MeyerLouie
_________________________________________________
Quotehere is some interesting info....
1941- SMOKEJUMPERS PARACHUTE "THE EAGLE" IS CHANGED FROM RIP CORD TO STATIC LINE.
THE FS-1 PARACHUTE, A 28’ FLAT CIRCULAR CANOPY WITH DERRY SLOTS AND GUIDELINES ATTACHED TO THE SKIRT AND CONNECTOR LINKS, IS PLACED IN SERVICE. THE COLOR IS CHANGED FROM ALL WHITE TO ALTERNATING ORANGE AND WHITE PANELS IN 1949.
1950- THE FS-2 PARACHUTE, SAME AS THE FS-1, 1.6 TWILL NYLON CANOPY EXCEPT 3 REAR PANELS MODIFIED WITH TAILS IS PLACED IN SERVICE.
1954- THE FS-5, A 32’ FLAT CIRCULAR CANOPY, 1.1 RIPSTOP NYLON, WITH 7’ SLOTS AND THREE TAILS, ORANGE WITH 5 WHITE REAR PANELS, IS PLACED IN SERVICE. A MOVE FROM DRIFT CHUTES TO PAPER DRIFT STREAMERS STARTED.
1960- FS-5A PARACHUTE IN USE. MODIFIED FS-5 WITH LENGTHENED SLOTS TO 10’ AND GUIDELINES ATTACHED INSIDE THE CANOPY 35’’ FROM SKIRT. TOGGLES ADDED TO GUIDELINES IN 1968.
Derry developed the chutes used by smokejumper and the first tests were done in CA very close to where Duane's parents lived. I am not talking about the actual tests with the smoke jumpers, but a strip in California that he used to test his product. There used to be a picture of Derry and a friend standing in an airfield. The jumper was on the ground...and a young man who resembled Weber was on the ground pulling the chute out.
I saw this picture one TIME and never saw it again. I thought the pic was on the forum or in the smokejumper research, but I saw it that one time and could never find it again. I can visualize the pic in my mind, but I cannot produce it.
Derry and his partner or friend are to the Right on the pic and they are standing.
The jumper is on the ground and the boy was squated carefully pulling the chute out. This was the early developement days in California before he let the smokejumper use them. It could have been one of his prototypes in the developement stage.
Where in my memory is this picture? I cannot put a time stamp on it or where I saw it.
None of the sites on Forestry and smoke jumping have shown this photo. I do remember the picture was CA and pre 1945. Duane was in CA 1943 and then gone. He was found in Columbia and sent back to CA and sentence to McNeil in Jan of 1945. During the time 1942 to the end of 1944 - Duane was with family and running from the authorities. Some how in this mix he spent a couple of months at Camp Siebert, AL in 1943 in the ARMY no less. At that time the parents had moved to CA as I have a letter he wrote his mother.
The family moved from Ohio to Ca while he was in the Navy 1942.
As the family had friends of the family who help the obtain employment in CA with Sherwin William in Huntington Bch.
The family did all they could to help this troubled young man and Derry was known to the family because of the father's background. Even Duane spoke of Derry, but of course I had NO idea who Derry was (I was 17 yrs younger than Weber). I would not meet any of Weber's family until several yrs after his death.
I will never be able to unravel his past - and NO one cares but me!
QuoteIt's on the same road as Jefferson Lake, only you go past the lake an additional four or five miles. Some references on Google under Goober's Pond, WA.
Road dead ends not long after that, because it's near the edge of a wilderness area. Sat map doesn't show it, but there is a spur that leads off the main FS road right to the lake.
Basically, you drive north on 101 out of Shelton, turn left at the Hamma Hamma River road, and follow that until you reach the intersection for FS road 2401. Then 2401 takes you up past Jefferson Lake and up to Goober Pond. I like to call it the High Lake instead. Shooting and other activities are legal there, since it is in the National Forest. Usually, you can hear people coming from below before they ever arrive. There are three possible camping spots. I like it because it's a beautiful place and you are so high up that you can get radio reception easy from Seattle.
Partial map attached.
Some people camp at Jefferson Lake, but I don't like it because you have to walk everything down a steep trail. At High Lake you just park and start setting up. A good alternative to driving all the way up to GP is Upper Elk Lake. But that place has only ONE possible camping spot and there is absolutely no other camping access. You have to go there on a Thursday or forget it for the weekend. Someone always shows up on Friday morning.
Last time I camped at the Lower Elk, all weekend Greg and I heard people up above pulling over every few hours. They would see my truck and say this:Quote'F%$!k! Somebody's already here!'
At Lower Elk, you have to walk down the gear, but it's less than fifty feet. Then you have your own private lake for the weekend. It's too cool. Bring inflatable mattress or boat for sure. To get to this lake, you take the same exit off 101 north, the Hamma Hamma River road, but you turn off onto a different road at the bridge. Shorter distance to reach it than going to the High (Goober Pond) lake, though.
__________________________________________________
Yeah, I backpacked into an area real close to where you're talking about, it's something else. Beautiful place!
MeyerLouie
Quote
But the early Smoke Jumpers basically only had hand tools to fight the fires.
Robert99
How EARLY are U speaking of?
By 1948 they were dropping cargo to the jumpers and forestry. Perhaps U need to READ up on the NICKLES!
ROBERT, you actually think I am an idiot or you are deliberately TRYING to distort truths!
How much are they paying U?
QuotePersonally I don't think smoke jumpers fit Cooper's profile. These guys
were cautious about things, they took risks, but not when it to came
to safety. these guys looked like they were going to a fencing match!
I just can't see one jumping out of a plane over a wooded area with
with plain clothes and loafers.....
PERHAPS Cooper was NOT a jumper, but the WORLD GREATEST JOCK CARRIER could also have been a SPOTTER! Need someone with an EAGLE EYE - and DUANE was very good regarding distance and spotting things VERY FAR way. He was a crack shot with a pistol and a rife!
ONE time Duane showed me a picture it was of a group of guys infront of a plane. Duane said he was in that picture. I thought it was a joke! The picture if I am correct was of the Johnson Guys, but there was NO detail in the pic.
This was around 1984...when he made this comment.
He claimed to have know the guys in the attached picture around that same time.
Photo recognitions with Duane's navy pic - indicates one of the men is possibly Duane L. Weber and not either of the names provided by the book the pic was in. ONE name never existed and the other's family said their uncle was NEVER in Camino or CA.
Robert99 55
QuoteQuote
But the early Smoke Jumpers basically only had hand tools to fight the fires.
Robert99
How EARLY are U speaking of?
By 1948 they were dropping cargo to the jumpers and forestry. Perhaps U need to READ up on the NICKLES!
ROBERT, you actually think I am an idiot or you are deliberately TRYING to distort truths!
How much are they paying U?
Jo, Google "Smoke Jumper" and see what turns up. The Forest Service in the USA started using smoke jumpers in 1939.
As I pointed out in my original post and repeatedly since then, equipment was parachuted to the smoke jumpers from the start.
You really do need to start reading the posts that you later misquote.
Robert99
QuoteQuote
Robert99 replies:
Just exactly who was buying cargo parachutes in February 1945 other than the military?
JO STATED:
"ROBERT! Smoke jumper used cargo chutes to get their equipment to the ground OR to get supplies to the jumpers after they were on the ground - ALL of this is in a smoke jumper book!
I expect this is why someone a while back questioned if there had been any fires in the area of the Amboy find.
ONE of the few things that explain a cargo chute. Could also have been a training drop."
ROBERT THEN CAME BACK WITH:
"Jo, I doubt very much if the Smoke Jumpers needed a parachute that could handle 400 pounds.
Remember that Smoke Jumpers were for jumping into remote areas with minimal equipment in order to fight the fire until more personnel could arrive by land. So Smoke Jumpers at the start of a fire would basically be few in numbers and using only tools that they could carry and use by hand. Of course, those tools were dropped in by small parachutes but they sure didn't weigh 400 pounds".
ROBERT I broke it down to she said and he said.
LET THE FORUM BE THE JUDGE OF WHAT U ACTUALLY SAID.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
the lines would be thicker ?
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