52 52
quade

DB Cooper

By quade, in Skydiving History & Trivia

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georger    264

georger
  Quote

All,

I’m staying out of discussions for a while, I think sometimes I stifle creativity (not intentionally, it is just part of my personality). But, I’m watching and taking it all in.


REPLY> Sluggo, Im going to address this directly.
I dont see that you stifle at all. In fact, it is your
creativity which has spurred others to be creative.
An exchange. I am by now well aware of the rigor
you insist upon and that is a good thing. Without
your work none of this would exist! Everyone knows
and recognises that.

From my perspective a lot of progress has been
made here and it all tracks back to you. Your
work is appreciated!

Im not throwing roses here but stating "the facts"
as you like and want it. Your influence is ALL
POSITIVE!

George (and you know who I am).

We need to nail down Safe's three points. I know
you are already headed there. We will all do what
we can but you are central to everything! Thats how
I see it.

George.

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snowmman    3

snowmman
just exploring the idea of "what kind of person"
..had a petty theft prior w/prison.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905711,00.html

Heinrich VonGeorge, 45, the man who hijacked a Mohawk Airlines propjet last week (July 1972), scarcely fits that pattern. His motive was not an escape compulsion or an aberrant drive for momentary fame. It was a simple, brutal act of financial desperation.


VonGeorge was the kind of American failure that Theodore Dreiser was born to document. His real name, according to FBI files, was Merlyn La Verne St. George, and he once served two years in San Quentin for petty theft. He variously, and unsuccessfully, ran a tobacco shop, sold drug products and worked as assistant manager of a discount store. Despite his failures, though, friends in Brockton, Mass., where he moved in 1970, say that VonGeorge seemed determined to provide for his wife and seven children.

Finally, unemployed and debt-ridden, he told his wife that he was going to Albany to look for a job. He hijacked the Mohawk airliner with a track-meet starter's pistol, demanded and got $200,000 in ransom money, then forced the plane to land in Poughkeepsie, N.Y. There VonGeorge suffered his final setback: he was shotgunned to death at point-blank range by an FBI agent.

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snowmman    3

snowmman
REPLY> and the biggest fact of all: He hijacks and
holds for ransom an airplane in flight! Not your average civilian.



Yeah. In looking at the other extortion hijackings, I'm not sure what percentage had prior serious criminal records.

There are some odd ones...Trapnell had a long history of bank robberies. And his case led to two more hijackings.

Trapnell wanted his friend Padilla released from jail too, but Padilla told his Dallas jailers, "I'm not going anywhere with him. He's nuts."

Also of note: the Oswald daughter hijack: she had railroad flares?

his hijack:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903752,00.html

'The hijacker boarded the Los Angeles-to-New York airliner with an automatic pistol concealed inside a fake plaster arm cast. Once he had seized control in the cockpit, he started making a wild series of demands over the radiotelephone. He wanted to talk to President Nixon; he wanted the release of Angela Davis; he wanted a ransom payment of exactly $306,800. Eight hours after the hijacker struck, two FBI agents disguised as crew members boarded the plane at John F. Kennedy Airport, shot the hijacker in the hand and captured him.
There was no doubt about his identity. He was Garrett Brock Trapnell, 34, a dark-haired man with piercing eyes and a long record of bank robberies. Trapnell himself did not deny the hijacking, but he claimed it had been done by his wicked alter ego, Gregg Ross. He was a Jekyll-Hyde personality, he said. Appearing in Brooklyn's U.S. District Court last month, he pleaded not guilty."

some of his appeal stuff here:
http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/550694

Trapnell had some psychiatric history. Apparently a prior patient of Hubbard the guy who subsequently wrote a book on skyjacking. Hubbard testifies at the trial..there's all sorts of dissent about whether Trapnell is insane or insanely smart.

So then Trapnell's in prison with McNally, a hijacker we know. Trapnell's girlfriend Barbara Ann Oswald hijacks a helicoptor as part of an escape plot for Trapnell, McNally and a third?. She's armed, but the pilot somehow gets her gun and shoots her. she dies.
court case on the escape attempt:
http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/492887


Later, her 17 year old daughter hijacks a plane going from St. Louis to Kansas City. She wants Trapnell freed, again. Here's a news article on that hijacking:

-----

As a TWA jet from St. Louis descended 25 years ago toward Kansas City, a passenger's scrawled note prompted a startling change of course.

Claiming to have a bomb, the passenger demanded the DC-9 be turned around and flown instead to Carbondale, Ill., not far from one of America's toughest federal prisons.

Co-pilot Lyle Mitchell quickly retracted the jet's landing gear, raised the flaps and boosted power to the engines. Pilot James Miller quietly entered a code into the transponder, a device that helps air traffic controllers track planes.
The code signaled that Flight 541, which carried 87 persons, had been hijacked.

It was only four days before Christmas 1978. Pilots at that time were trained to comply with the demands of hijackers, who were terrorizing the skies that decade.

Besides, Miller and Mitchell knew they couldn't do anything about a bomb. And they didn't have a gun and unlike hundreds of today's commercial pilots in the United States who have undergone special training within the last year and now pack semiautomatic pistols. Looking back, Miller wishes he'd had one.

There's no doubt in my mind, I would have shot (hijacker) Robyn Oswald if I had a chance. the Independence native said recentl Of course, then my life would have changed forever, because I would have taken a life.


Hijacking Family

Back in 1978, Miller and Mitchell stayed in the cockpit while Oswald a 17-year-old high school dropout from suburban St. Louis commandeered the plane's back rows. The hijacker communicated through notes handed to flight attendants.

Oswald said she had dynamite taped underneath her bulky sweater. Witnesses said wires ran from a row of sticks to a triggering device, which resembled a door bell.

On the ground, FBI agents scrambled to learn whether the bomb could be real. On the plane, two passengers, both Naval Academy graduates, told the crew that it sure looked real.

Oswald's motive? To free GARRETT BROCK TRAPNELL, who was serving a life sentence at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Ill., for a 1972 hijacking. The day Oswald hijacked Flight 541, Trapnell was in an Illinois courtroom facing charges of attempted escape.

Seven months earlier, Oswald's mother, Barbara Ann Oswald, hijacked a helicopter and ordered the pilot to land inside the maximum-security prison to pick up Trapnell and two other inmates. The pilot wrested away her gun, then killed her, before regaining control of the helicopter.

After her mother's death, Robyn Oswald continued contact with Trapnell through letters and at least one prison visit, her former attorney said. Trapnell, the attorney said, told Oswald what to do.

She was going through a very bad time with the loss of her mom, attorney, Donald L. Wolff said, He played upon he as if she were taking her mom's place. In a sense, she was trying to do what she thought her mom would have done.

In the cockpit, Miller and Mitchell knew none of this. All they knew was that the string of hijackings that had shocked America in the 1970s was continuing. And for the first time, they were hostages.

Passengers Unaware

Oswald delivered her hijack note when the plane was only eight miles from touching down in Kansas City. As the plane turned away from Kansas City, Miller said nothing to his passengers.

Many wondered what was happening, however, when two flight attendants began moving people from the back rows forward. Because the plane was full, the attendants raised armrests and packed four passengers into where there had been only three.
Oswald, who had ordered the seats near her cleared, stayed in the back.

But the runways at Carbondale wouldn't handle the big DC-9. Through another note, Oswald told Miller to land at Marion instead.

Miller asked another airline's crew for proper radio frequencies and other landing details for that airport, at which he'd never landed.
Of course, everyone (in the air) knew what was happening, he said. Everyone except the passengers, that is.

They finally learned they had been hijacked when Oswald insisted the pilots pipe their radio transmissions through the passenger cabin so she could hear the conversations. Unknown to her, the pilots still talked discreetly with TWA officials on a second radio.

After landing at Marion, the pilots parked the plane at the end of the runway, far from the terminal. The plane, which should have landed in Kansas City at midmorning, sat on the tarmac until well after dark.

“We talked to FBI, you know, asking what's going to happen if five sticks of high-impact explosive go off, Miller recalled.They said, Wait one minute, we'll have to check on that. Well, we think it will be total devastation. The plane will be destroyed. Well, wait one minute. We'll have to get back with you.'

We had a half of dozen of these (conversations). We decided we would have to sit there and wait.

Worried that his partially full fuel tanks would worsen any explosion, Miller kept the engines going until they ran dry.

Although the December weather was cold, the passenger cabin grew uncomfortably stuffy and hot.

I figured she was going to suffocate everybody. said Barnett Helzberg, who was returning to Kansas City from Cincinnati and sat not too far from Oswald. Earlier in the flight, Helzberg had watched her point out a window and ask someone, What's that? as they approached Kansas City, then dash to the rest room to write her hijacking note.

Oswald set a deadline for Trapnell to be freed. It passed without incident.
Eventually, she agreed to release elderly passengers and babies in exchange for food. The plane's now-open door and ramp tempted some remaining hostages, especially since a forward bulkhead blocked Oswald's view of the opening.

At one point, Helzberg strolled toward the door simply to seek relief from the hot cabin. Another passenger asked whether Helzberg was ready to get out. Helzberg balked.

We were scared she would blow up the plane if she saw people on the runway he recalled I said, You go check with the captain.

Retelling the moment, Helzberg paused. I've never been known for courage,said the retired jewelry chain president, who now leads his own foundation.

The pilots already had plotted a plan that called for some passengers to stand and stretch, further blocking Oswald's view, while others escaped.

Once he learned the pilot approved, Helzberg bolted. He slogged through a marsh before a van without lights approached and took him to the terminal.

With the hijacking more than nine hours old, a speaker in the Federal Aviation Administration command room in Kansas City crackled with unexpected news: Passengers were leaving the plane in unstructured pairs.The trickle continued for more than a half hour. Before long, only a few hostages remained.

Oswald suddenly realized something was wrong. The few people still standing to block her view ran, leaving only one passenger with Oswald. Miller remembers yelling at him to get off. The pilots also fled, and the FBI boarded. Agents quickly subdued Oswald.

Instead of dynamite, she carried only harmless railroad flares. Tried as a juvenile, Oswald spent 22 months in a treatment program. Her former attorney ran into her a few years ago at a shopping mall.She was a mother and doing fine Wolff said.

Trapnell, who once bragged he would escape, died of emphysema in a Springfield prison hospital in 1993.

Today, Miller admits that confronting Oswald would have been difficult. She was not getting out of that seat back there. said Miller, now of Hot Springs, Ark.I couldn't go back there with a gun if she had a bomb. If I go back there, she's liable to blow the whole thing up

But having a gun at least gives pilots options, he said. For example, he could have passed a gun to a trusted individual, such as the flight attendant, who could have gotten close to the hijacker.

Yeah, I'd love to have had one Miller said. You bet your life.


By DONNA McGUIRE
The Kansas City Star

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georger    264

georger
Is Dropzone suddenly shape shifting or something?

I see a Gossamer Links header on one browser and
totally different page on another browser?

I dont see the last posts at all on one browser but
see them here on this browser? Cant post at all with
one browser but can with this one?

????????????????????????

George

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ltdiver    3

ltdiver
All,

Just my opinion here, but if you look at the date from the Walter Cronkite segment you'll see the date of the deplaning passengers. It's not the date of the hijacking, it's the next day, November 25. (date is imbedded in the film strip if you look).

IMO that footage is most likely not from Cooper's 305, but just footage the cameraman shot the next day for Cronkite's report.

Besides, it looks like it's dark outside. Didn't the passengers debark in Seattle when it was still light? On the tarmac? Away from the terminal? This passenger footage could just as well be from Reno, just a random shot of any passengers.

Just some thoughts to chew on. Not sure if there's anybody left who'll know the exact answer to this question. Unless you can find the cameraman who shot the film.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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Sluggo_Monster    0

Sluggo_Monster
World News Tonight, being a "World" news agency and supplying tape (and film) to agencies all over the world, used GMT (or zulu) time. It was the almost the 25th (GMT) when the hijacking occured.

Note: the transcripts from some of the ATC groups have the hour correct but the date wrong.

See page 144
It reads:
"This transcription covers the period from approximately 2315 Greenwich Mean time November 24, 1971 to approximately 0011 Greenwich Mean Time November 24, 1971."

It should be:
This transcription covers the period from approximately 2315 Greenwich Mean time November 24, 1971 to approximately 0011 Greenwich Mean Time November 25, 1971."

The plane landed in Seattle at 5:43 PST on 11/24/1971 which was 01:43 GMT on 11/25/1971.

Yes, it was dark by the time the passengers were released.

Sluggo_Monster

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NORJAK Forum

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ltdiver    3

ltdiver
  Quote

The plane landed in Seattle at 5:43 PST on 11/24/1971 which was 01:43 GMT on 11/25/1971.

Yes, it was dark by the time the passengers were released.


Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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skyjack71    0

skyjack71
Snowmman - "He Who Knows All" or if you don't you find it. Tell me more about this VonGeorge - the paste I did below states he was in San Quentin - can you find out when he was in San Quentin and how he learned to jump. I would love to know that information and it might be useful - remember Duane was in San Quentin for several yrs.


  Quote


VonGeorge was the kind of American failure that Theodore Dreiser was born to document. His real name, according to FBI files, was Merlyn La Verne St. George, and he once served two years in San Quentin for petty theft. He variously, and unsuccessfully, ran a tobacco shop, sold drug products and worked as assistant manager of a discount store. Despite his failures, though, friends in Brockton, Mass., where he moved in 1970, say that VonGeorge seemed determined to provide for his wife and seven children.


Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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snowmman    3

snowmman
  Quote


Snowmman - "He Who Knows All" or if you don't you find it. Tell me more about this VonGeorge - the paste I did below states he was in San Quentin - can you find out when he was in San Quentin and how he learned to jump. I would love to know that information and it might be useful - remember Duane was in San Quentin for several yrs.



I realize I don't know a lot. I really don't have a clue about the range of folks that hijacked. It's pretty broad. Enough to make me think we're very narrow minded about our cooper profile? or at least wonder if we are....

VonGeorge's planned escape wasn't by parachute. Don't know what his plan was. There was just 3 successful US jumps in '72. There were some more attempts with chutes, that didn't have jumps.

I think sometimes we focus on the parachute too much. I wanted to show some other folks that hijacked for money.

You need someone willing to do the hijack and then also willing to do the jump. And cooper was the first on the jump thing, so that made it harder.

Hey for us whuffos: I've been watching dc-9 jet exits on youtube. There's a lot of them. although probably <170mph?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoLh8IPDa4I
for one.

I'm really perplexed by the idea we've all absorbed that wheels down and flaps down showed a high level of knowledge. Wheels down doesn't seem required.

727 pics of some exits attached from the web. I guess hands out ain't bad for the shoulders if you're going slow enough?

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georger    264

georger
  Quote

  Quote

The plane landed in Seattle at 5:43 PST on 11/24/1971 which was 01:43 GMT on 11/25/1971.

Yes, it was dark by the time the passengers were released.


Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT.

ltdiver




REPLY> from transcript.


3:07 pm pst 11/24 t1 [Departure PDX]
305: Out PDX 2253/2258. ETA SEA 2336 on 18.5 RB KC2307CK

3:13 pm pst t1 [hijack note]
305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle.

6:21 pm pst t1 [ 305 on ground. New instructions from Cooper , getting ready to deplane passengers and stewardesses…
15 degree flaps first mentioned]

6:38 pm pst t1 [release of stewardesses etc … technical discussion about stairs]
305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl (Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after

6:44 pm pst t1 [stewardesses leaving aircraft]
305: Ops. Other two gils leaving aircraft.
MSFLOPS: Roger.
KC0244CK

Sluggo may have the "facts" version.

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Orange1    0

Orange1
of tangential interest (unless Felhaber was Cooper) but I thought worth posting in light of the money discussion...

  Quote

Most of the thousands of mutilated money exchanges each year are routine. Natural disasters create lots of inquiries. Children of the Depression have discovered their attic savings shredded by rodents. Greeting cards stuffed with money are accidentally shredded.



http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/28/buried.millions.ap/index.html
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

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ltdiver    3

ltdiver
  Quote

  Quote

  Quote

The plane landed in Seattle at 5:43 PST on 11/24/1971 which was 01:43 GMT on 11/25/1971.

Yes, it was dark by the time the passengers were released.


Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT.

ltdiver




REPLY> from transcript.


3:07 pm pst 11/24 t1 [Departure PDX]
305: Out PDX 2253/2258. ETA SEA 2336 on 18.5 RB KC2307CK

3:13 pm pst t1 [hijack note]
305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle.

6:21 pm pst t1 [ 305 on ground. New instructions from Cooper , getting ready to deplane passengers and stewardesses…
15 degree flaps first mentioned]

6:38 pm pst t1 [release of stewardesses etc … technical discussion about stairs]
305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl (Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after

6:44 pm pst t1 [stewardesses leaving aircraft]
305: Ops. Other two gils leaving aircraft.
MSFLOPS: Roger.
KC0244CK

Sluggo may have the "facts" version.



So, by this timeline it's pretty certain that those passengers seen deplaning and entering the terminal are -not- from 305. Thanks.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

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skyjack71    0

skyjack71
  Quote

  Quote

If for some reason he was on the flight he could/would have had enough emotional connection and memory to follow the story (even as an innocent party). This could easily have become romantised to the point where he fantasised about his involvement - and over the years the story grows (like the fish that got away). From experience with my own family I know that some people can really struggle to separate fantasy from reality - to the point they genuinely believe their own lie.



Nigel - Separating fantasy and lies from the truth is easy for me. Why?

:)details Duane told me in 1979 while we were in WA. and then to Tahoe - even I could believe that he may have had an association with the incident or knew who Cooper was, but, when I retrace our life and the trip and the things he told me over 18 yrs of our life together - the pieces of the puzzle all fit, but there are some missing pieces I hope will be revealed within the yr as I am going back to WA.

I would not be spending my life chasing the truth and making this journey to WA. if I had any doubts that Duane was NOT Cooper.

There is NO WAY a man can be incarcerated in McNeil Island Federal Prison for approximately 1 1/2 yrs in the early 40's and then go back in 1979 and be able to find his way around without a map and to talk about things that where NOT there in the early 40's.

We are talking approximately 34 yrs after he was supposedly in WA (per the FBI) this man goes back and doesn't need a map and shows me roads and tells me about places on those roads and supposely the only time in his life he was there was while he was in prison...someone give me a break.

Some of the details are about places and things that were not there in the early 40's. It is essential I find out what his connection to the state of WA was.
I firmly believe he stayed in WA until the late 40's and prior to being arrested back East in 1950.

There is also the span of his life from 1962 thru 1968 that needs a lot of answers. He used many AKA's in his life and he got around.

:|Rather strange that for 6 yrs in the 40's he was not in prison, but no one knows where he was - not even family...you can be assured he was living under an AKA, but was he also in the service under another AKA? Possible or impossible? Did he take someone else's place overseas? Who is Wavy? Who is Dusty? Who is Green?

I want answers and I am spending money that with todays economy I should be doing something else with to find the answers. I am also using up what is left of my life looking for these answers.

You can be assured that if I thought this was a fantasy on his part or was in anyway a figment of my imagination - I have better things to do with my life - but because of the things I do know - I will NOT stop till I get answers. An impossible task - I don't think so. It is something I should have done 12 yrs ago.

I just hope I have the strength to do what I have to do and to face whatever I find or don't find.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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georger    264

georger
  Quote

  Quote

  Quote

  Quote

The plane landed in Seattle at 5:43 PST on 11/24/1971 which was 01:43 GMT on 11/25/1971.

Yes, it was dark by the time the passengers were released.


Good to know. Thanks. And at what time were the passengers released by Cooper? The footage shows a time of 5:36 GMT. Did the passengers -really- sit on the plane for almost 4 hours before being released? The plane was airborne again at 7:34 PM PST which would put that at 3:34 GMT.

ltdiver




REPLY> from transcript.


3:07 pm pst 11/24 t1 [Departure PDX]
305: Out PDX 2253/2258. ETA SEA 2336 on 18.5 RB KC2307CK

3:13 pm pst t1 [hijack note]
305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle.

6:21 pm pst t1 [ 305 on ground. New instructions from Cooper , getting ready to deplane passengers and stewardesses…
15 degree flaps first mentioned]

6:38 pm pst t1 [release of stewardesses etc … technical discussion about stairs]
305: Have negotiated release of 2 girls leaving at any moment. 3rd girl (Tina Mucklow) to stay with aircraft. H e wants her to manipulate stairs for him after plane is airborne. Have tried to tell him unable to operate stairs to lower position after

6:44 pm pst t1 [stewardesses leaving aircraft]
305: Ops. Other two gils leaving aircraft.
MSFLOPS: Roger.
KC0244CK

Sluggo may have the "facts" version.



So, by this timeline it's pretty certain that those passengers seen deplaning and entering the terminal are -not- from 305. Thanks.

ltdiver




REPLY> Sluggo should reply to this because
he probably knows the full story.

My impression from the transcript is the passengers stood on the tarmak (tarmac) for some time waiting
to be taken to the terminal. There was confusion.
Scott was concerned about the passenger's safety
and complained about the confusion several times.
One passenger ran back to the airplane trying to get something left behind and Scott describes him as being 'tackled' on the steps.... there were problems
with sequestering the passengers into an area .. and
finally with all the confusion of people wandering around the airport was closed. One frankly gets the
image of near chaos for a time, from the transcript.

Its my understanding that part of this traces back to
Cooper not actually releasing the passengers to go
back to the terminal until all he requested' had been
delivered, andso they were held on the tarmak ...
for sometime.

But, Scott makes it very clear in the transcript he was
concerned about the safety of the passengers and
wanted them away from the plane (where Cooper is
holding a bomb)...

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georger    264

georger
  Quote

  Quote

  Quote

If for some reason he was on the flight he could/would have had enough emotional connection and memory to follow the story (even as an innocent party). This could easily have become romantised to the point where he fantasised about his involvement - and over the years the story grows (like the fish that got away). From experience with my own family I know that some people can really struggle to separate fantasy from reality - to the point they genuinely believe their own lie.



Nigel - Separating fantasy and lies from the truth is easy for me. Why?

:)details Duane told me in 1979 while we were in WA. and then to Tahoe - even I could believe that he may have had an association with the incident or knew who Cooper was, but, when I retrace our life and the trip and the things he told me over 18 yrs of our life together - the pieces of the puzzle all fit, but there are some missing pieces I hope will be revealed within the yr as I am going back to WA.

I would not be spending my life chasing the truth and making this journey to WA. if I had any doubts that Duane was NOT Cooper.

There is NO WAY a man can be incarcerated in McNeil Island Federal Prison for approximately 1 1/2 yrs in the early 40's and then go back in 1979 and be able to find his way around without a map and to talk about things that where NOT there in the early 40's.

We are talking approximately 34 yrs after he was supposedly in WA (per the FBI) this man goes back and doesn't need a map and shows me roads and tells me about places on those roads and supposely the only time in his life he was there was while he was in prison...someone give me a break.

Some of the details are about places and things that were not there in the early 40's. It is essential I find out what his connection to the state of WA was.
I firmly believe he stayed in WA until the late 40's and prior to being arrested back East in 1950.

There is also the span of his life from 1962 thru 1968 that needs a lot of answers. He used many AKA's in his life and he got around.

:|Rather strange that for 6 yrs in the 40's he was not in prison, but no one knows where he was - not even family...you can be assured he was living under an AKA, but was he also in the service under another AKA? Possible or impossible? Did he take someone else's place overseas? Who is Wavy? Who is Dusty? Who is Green?

I want answers and I am spending money that with todays economy I should be doing something else with to find the answers. I am also using up what is left of my life looking for these answers.

You can be assured that if I thought this was a fantasy on his part or was in anyway a figment of my imagination - I have better things to do with my life - but because of the things I do know - I will NOT stop till I get answers. An impossible task - I don't think so. It is something I should have done 12 yrs ago.

I just hope I have the strength to do what I have to do and to face whatever I find or don't find.



REPLY> Im probably out of order saying this but,
Duane had his life, you have yours. Separate and distinct. That might bear some thinging about. And
I say this with due respect.

I dont like seeing others stumble off into the darkness.

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377    22

377
  Quote

  Quote

Don Quixote pursued a quest for an impossible dream, and fantasized conspirators along the way.

But he was quite the madman.



Should we then aspire to Aldonza's view of the world, "The world's a dung heap and we are maggots that crawl on it!"

or Quixote's, "It is the mission of each true knight...
His duty... nay, his privilege!
To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go;
To right the unrightable wrong.

...and the world will be better for this,
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach the unreachable star."



That was GREAT Ckret! Bravo! Encore!!!

Can you sing My Way next?

Sinatra, Goulet, Martin, Bennet... those Vegas lounge punks aint got nuthin on you.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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nigel99    599

nigel99
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Nigel - Separating fantasy and lies from the truth is easy for me. Why?



Sorry don't misunderstand me - I wasn't questioning YOU, but rather Duane. People can weave very intricate lies around themselves to the point that even loved ones are not able to see through the mess. As I mentioned I have personal experience of this both from family members and outside the family. As a simple example I worked for 3 years for a fraudster who had a criminal record and yet he was able to hide it not only from his investors and staff but also the US military that we were doing business with. This man was /is broke and yet he spun such a good yarn that a reseller of private jets was taking him for weekend "evaluation" trips to mainland europe free of charge (got to give him credit though - cheaper than easyjet and better class :D) always on the promise of the order for the new jet "next month"

In all honestly I don't know enough about Duane to know one way or the other and I don't personally care. I only follow this and the previous thread for the drama.

I do think you implicitly trust and believe what you were told though and are looking for facts to back up your belief. By your own admission Duane was a dishonest individual and sometimes the truth is the simple explanation and that could simply be that he lied to you alot over the years.

One thing that really puzzles me is your motivation for wanting to have Duane publicly confirmed as DB (since you already believe it along with a number of other people).

Lastly I know that this is a very personal thread for you - but for many of us on the internet this is just an online soap and we are here for the ride so don't take things to personally

:o
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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snowmman    3

snowmman
How come no one commented on LaPoint? Or Sluggo's business card? I thought I did a good job on that.

It seems to me the LaPoint hijack proves the lunacy of rationalizing about Cooper details too much...(kind of like the McNally case). (edit) go to Google News and type in Richard Lapoint hijack, and click on "all dates" if you think I'm making Lapoint up.

It also amazes me how the US public only thinks of Cooper and McCoy when it comes to jumping hijackers.

LaPoint was from the east coast, he jumps in Colorado, on a flight originating in Las Vegas. Lands in the snow, in January, wearing cowboy boots and western clothing. Sure it's daytime, but a little colder than Cooper's temperatures...LaPoint only asked for $50k. He was ex-army paratrooper, unclear how much experience. He jumped from a DC-9, which hadn't been done before, so he was a first of sorts. He had jumping experience, yet he jumps in cowboy boots and gets injured on landing.

Sure he was caught. But looking at the details of clues, ignoring fingerprints, there's no way those sparse clues make any sense that would lead to someone? I don't think so.

I think all the other cases say catching a parachuting hijacker is dependent on: prints, locating the DZ quickly, having someone ID you on the ground, or having a co-conspirator say something. If you don't have any of that, it's too hard to work back from details of the hijack to a suspect. There's no logic that works.

I think it's a myth that the clues as we know them, can point to Cooper.

I think the only strong thing we have is the probable landing in the Columbia scenario. Looking at the long stretch of beach along the columbia between Frenchman's and Tena Bar, I think plant theories are nonsense, now.

I think it's reasonable to believe the money could have survived in the water in that condition. I don't believe the dredge scenarios any more. (because it would probably be harder for the money to land in-channel at a spot where the dredge would get it successfully).

Isn't this just a boring little case once we get the true facts? I'm scratching my head trying to understand what's interesting about this thing now.

I'm almost certain there was a report of a body found by the Columbia around the time of Cooper by a kid, but when investigated, no body was found. Maybe that was Cooper's body? I wonder how much the Columbia was investigated at the time in '71?

I've attached a graph showing the number of hijack attempts, US and non-US from 1947 to 2003.
In 1971 there ~33 non-US and ~25 US. ??
peak was '69-'70.

another chart with a definition of "successful" hijackings showing the numbers from '46 to '85

These are from "Testing a Rational Choice Model of Airline Hijackings" by Dugan, Lafree, Piquero. (2004)

You can see that Cooper's hijack occurred at the peak of the form...i.e. there were a set of skills/methods that had been honed by sheer numbers. And it was all well reported.

Sure the chute thing was cooper's new new thing. But other scholars have theorized that hijackers tried to outdo the ones before them. Arguably, Cooper was just a natural progression. (as the people say who point to Cini and his apparent parachute plan before Cooper).

I look at the graphs and say "Who Cooper was didn't matter. He was a product of the times. There would have been another Cooper, if Cooper wasn't first. So we can't find Cooper by focusing on clues from the one hijack"

Cooper was ordinary.
here's some more impressive stuff:
http://www.jackboulware.com/writing/historys-unsolved-heists

or how about this one in Japan. 110,000 names on the suspect list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_million_yen_robbery

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377    22

377
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How come no one commented on LaPoint? Or Sluggo's business card? I thought I did a good job on that.

  Quote



Let me be the first to compliment you on the Sluggo FBI business card! That really was outstanding.

For an encore can you do one of those 419 scam money chest photos with all 20s and all Cooper serial numbers?

The 419 scammers email me with every story in the book including money belonging to plane crash victims, deposed dictators, etc, but never have they used the Cooper story. I must get the story to Lagos.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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