georger 258
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snowmman 3
It pulled (distorted) very well. Resilient stuff money is.
But the fibres dont seem to have much of a memory -
the stretching permanently distorted the bills even after they dried.
The FBI "folder" bills seem to have some waviness/distortion that the Ingram auction bills don't. The Ingram auction bills may have been pressed/cleaned up a bit by the PCGS currency folk?
It'd be interesting to know if the FBI got the bills "fully dry" or still damp. I suppose if they were wet when the Ingrams got them, they would distort a bit while drying. I'm still perplexed about the apparent "leaching" stains in the FBI folder. All in all, it seems like a pretty piss-poor way to store evidence.
The photos from 2/12/80 don't seem to have any obvious distortion, but I think we need more photos to be sure.
I'm thinking we can't even be sure of distortion ideas, because of the behavior of the bills while drying?
snowmman 3
So I dunno..I'm not sure that we can date anything about the money reliably.
REPLY> That remains to be tried.
If those are really rust stains on that one bill though, I can't understand that though. (as people have pointed out stainless hardware)
RELPLY> The rust could have come from any steel
or iron that happened tobe in the same burial place.
In the Columbia you have current to deal with with
at the bottom of wherever else.
well yeah, or the bundles were buried in a metal can. But I'm thinking this "burial" idea is just a stupid idea that got inserted in our brains because of the Duane myth. We're acting like burying money is something people did in the '70s. I don't think so. People would know it would get wet and rot.
I'm also thinking this idea of Cooper as aviation-industry and engineer might be myth. I'm wondering if maybe someone involved in commercial aviation wouldn't screw over an airline pilot and his crew like that. McCoy did, but he was military pilot (helicopter). Interesting McCoy taught Sunday School, had wife and kids, too. (unlike H.'s "not a normal man" theory)
I'm also wondering whether Cooper was Seattle-area resident. I think the Tacoma reference might mean out-of-area. And the McChord reference could be data gleaned from a map.
I'm really confused about the raincoat. It just got in the way for the jump. Did Cooper wear it because he travelled a lot that day in the rain? Just a short bit of walking on the tarmac at PDX to get on the plane, or from transportion to PDX. So why a raincoat?
I've attached the US NOAA weather map for 11/24/71. Shaded areas show precipitation (rain or snow) that day at 7 A.M EST.
So Portland and Seattle areas had rain. Up in Canada too (Calgary).
Was Cooper from Portland/Vancouver area? I think east coast was having snow.
The second attach is precipitation for the previous 24 hours (in inches) at 1 A.M EST
I think we can say that probably wherever Cooper started his day, it was raining?
snowmman 3
This phrase is in the transcripts.
Did Cooper really say it?
It's an odd phrase. We've got off on tangents about phraseology that might be aviation related. But we should examine everything he said.
Why would he say "negotiable currency"...An out-of-work aviation engineer would say that? I suppose $20, $50, and $100 are all "negotiable" ...so what kind of "non-negotiable" currency could he have been specifying not to get?
Was he just trying to say he didn't want $100's? or what?
Did Cooper really say it?
It's an odd phrase. We've got off on tangents about phraseology that might be aviation related. But we should examine everything he said.
Why would he say "negotiable currency"...An out-of-work aviation engineer would say that? I suppose $20, $50, and $100 are all "negotiable" ...so what kind of "non-negotiable" currency could he have been specifying not to get?
Was he just trying to say he didn't want $100's? or what?
Orange1 0
A different line of thinking in terms of the money being stained.
Cooper makes a head call before he is about to jump, a bundle of money falls out into the airliner's toilet and is stained by the blue toilet fluid used in planes. He grabs the money and sees that it is stained and practically unusable and throws it out into the relative wind. He stops on the stairs before jumping laughing about that bundle of money and the chances of dropping something like that in the head before he leaves the plane and burns in with a no pull.
Is it true? Who knows. It would make for a funny scene in a DB Cooper movie.
(hey you better copyright that so you get a screenwriting credit
)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.
377 22
Why would he say "negotiable currency"...
Can Ckret tell us the history on this "transcript"? A very unusual choice of words indeed. If transcript is accurate, there must be a clue here.
The rust stains still puzzle me. I doubt if they came from something random, like the bundles coming to rest on some wet rusty scrap metal. Seems more likely that they came from something the money was transported in, but just a hunch.
Chute hardware on my military surplus gear was not stainless steel. Only the ripcord was stainless. I think most of the metal pieces were cadmium or nickel plated steel, but a rigger would know exactly. I do remember seeing rusty harness parts on discarded surplus gear that had been left out in the elements.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 258
It pulled (distorted) very well. Resilient stuff money is.
But the fibres dont seem to have much of a memory -
the stretching permanently distorted the bills even after they dried.
The FBI "folder" bills seem to have some waviness/distortion that the Ingram auction bills don't. The Ingram auction bills may have been pressed/cleaned up a bit by the PCGS currency folk?
It'd be interesting to know if the FBI got the bills "fully dry" or still damp. I suppose if they were wet when the Ingrams got them, they would distort a bit while drying. I'm still perplexed about the apparent "leaching" stains in the FBI folder. All in all, it seems like a pretty piss-poor way to store evidence.
The photos from 2/12/80 don't seem to have any obvious distortion, but I think we need more photos to be sure.
I'm thinking we can't even be sure of distortion ideas, because of the behavior of the bills while drying?
REPLY>
Its a dead horse, but both the Ingrams and the FBI
did nobody any favors by the way the money scene
was handled. Disturbing the site lost vital-crucuial information.
Bore tests could still be done, if somebody is up for it
and looking for a phD dissertation.
Tina Bar is by definition a sandbar, ie. a place of alluvial desposits. Tina Bar directly connects to the whole wide alluvial system just up-current from the
Columbia-Willammette junction. That we find something deposited there should be no surprise.
It is a place where things get deposited, after arriving
in or near the water systems which feed the sandbar.
Siltation happens quickly. These are the kinds of places an arcaheologist loves!
The removal or siltation also happens quickly during
melts and flood. Very likely the money at Tina Bar
was part of a deeper deposit complex, then finally
exposed for Ingram to feel and find it. After how many
seasons is the only question. Once deposited the layers on top simply washed and weathered away.
Fibre analysis of the soil would have given the answer
whether some container was originally there or not.
I tend to favor the dredging hypothesis because it would account for the money being covered over and
being preserved for many years to finally have anything left 'to' find. A bulldoxer pushing sand and
silt around could very easily have broken the container and its contents to leave the part of the money we find
nearer the surface. Erosion then exposes the bundles
over time near the surface.
But there is no water-route (that works) for the money from Orchards or anywhere else north of the Columbia!
Whatever happened to Cooper, his money wound up in
the immediate watershed of the Columbia or the upper
Willamette to have it be found at Tina Bar, a sandbar
created by deposition.
Key to this may be the amount of yearly top sand erosion. That amount per year may be an estimate as to when the money originally came to Tina Bar, because preservation and erosion are key elements
in this scenario. Preservation implies rather deep burial
in the first place. Deep burial leads to dredging burial
vs flood because in a flood you have current which would not simply have deposited the money but also
moved it along not being covered over immediately.
The fact the money was found rather high off the waterline also suggests the dredging deposit idea.
Something as light as this money would be moved by
currents in flood and never stay at a high elevation.
Something "put" the money high up on the bar
then buried it in one single scenario.
Flooding can deposit something but not bury it to have it secured, especially at the open location of Tina Bar.
You have to explain not just the conveyance to Tina Bar but also its burial for preservation. A flood scenario
does not provide those two ingredients in the open
location at Tina Bar. A dredging operation does provide
both those elements.
Im only brainstorming here but its a plausable scenario.
George-
snowmman 3
I looked it up again. It's on the first page of the 99 page transcript we first got.
In the TTY log it says
"WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY
DENONMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT"
[sic]
So it's actually more interesting. Why would he call out "AMERICAN" currency? isn't that bizarre?
I wonder if maybe Cooper really was Canadian.
It was raining up past Calgary. Or closer to Seattle but in Canada: Vancouver BC, or over on Vancouver Island? (There's a ferry that gets you to WA)
georger 258
Why would he say "negotiable currency"...
Can Ckret tell us the history on this "transcript"? A very unusual choice of words indeed. If transcript is accurate, there must be a clue here.
The rust stains still puzzle me. I doubt if they came from something random, like the bundles coming to rest on some wet rusty scrap metal. Seems more likely that they came from something the money was transported in, but just a hunch.
Chute hardware on my military surplus gear was not stainless steel. Only the ripcord was stainless. I think most of the metal pieces were cadmium or nickel plated steel, but a rigger would know exactly. I do remember seeing rusty harness parts on discarded surplus gear that had been left out in the elements.
377
The history of the transcript(s) has been covered at
length earlier in these pages.You might also try:
http://n467us.com/ which is a valuable resource.
Ive looked at a lot of photos of the money. Rust of
the kind shown in the attached has appeared on only one bill that I know of. Tina bar is a sandbar. It collects debris of all kinds naturally. The dredging operation deposited more debris of all kinds. I
wouldnt extrapolate from one rust on one bill that
the iron sword of King Arthur has been discovered!
377 22
The dredging operation deposited more debris of all kinds. I
wouldnt extrapolate from one rust on one bill that
the iron sword of King Arthur has been discovered
Yeah, actually you are right Georger. I am so hungry for a real clue that I am amplifying noise and calling it a signal.
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
snowmman 3
The whole report is useful so I won't snap it.
page 3 has pictures of trash that went thru a dredge
best to save it, then click on it to view the pdf
(edit) wrong url initially
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc17.pdf
here's another one highlighting separation of trash from dredge spoils
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc24.pdf
page 3 has pictures of trash that went thru a dredge
best to save it, then click on it to view the pdf
(edit) wrong url initially
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc17.pdf
here's another one highlighting separation of trash from dredge spoils
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc24.pdf
377 22
Hidden image in rusted Cooper bill, making signals from noise.
http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill
http://boeing377.googlepages.com/imageinrustedcooperbill
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 258
The whole report is useful so I won't snap it.
page 3 has pictures of trash that went thru a dredge
best to save it, then click on it to view the pdf
(edit) wrong url initially
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc17.pdf
here's another one highlighting separation of trash from dredge spoils
http://el.erdc.usace.army.mil/elpubs/pdf/doerc24.pdf
REPLY>
I have tried without success to find a detailed elevation map of Tina Bar to know exactly what elevations exist
there. Is it flat or sloped or what! ? The Ingram photo
does not match the FBI excavation photos. But 40ft
feet up from the waterline seems consistent in every
report. The place the money was found, the slope
it was, and distance from the water line on are important because they define the processes that
apply at that location vs other locations in that area.
If anyone has a topographic chart of this bar please post it!
So far as I know, we have no great floods between
71 and 80 at Tina Bar. 76 was a mini flood which
may or may not have affected T Bar at all. So flooding
does not look like a viable scenario for depositing the
money at Tina Bar, unless somebody has other facts
about flooding at this bar ? See attached graph.
Therefore, the only great change at T Bar is the
dredging operation. The debris placed on T Bar by
the dredging had the dredge working where? Right
off T Bar, up or down from T Bar, across the channel
from T Bar. Only the manager would know.
But, if you cannot provide flooding facts at T Bar
then it has to be dredging. Because, the money
was found under 2-3" of sand and the bottom of the
bundles is part of the layer immediately below it.
That amounts to a 6-8 inch layer!
Subtract upper layer erosion by seasonal melts and
rain etc. That means the layer the money was in was
conceivably much deeper at the beginning, and with
that we are now "in" the dredging layer itself.
Current is a factor in this scenario. In floods you have
current. Tina Bar is a fairly open shoreline. Things washed up also wash off in the current. In the case of the money we have washup and staying, and being covered over. That selects against any ordinary current
scenario in favour of a deposit+cover scenario, to both
deposit the money at the barand have it covered up to stay (to be found later).
The height off the waterline is important. The higher up by flood the faster and more prevalent the current.
Flooding and current and movement all go together.
Only the dredging operation left deposits that stayed
HIGHER UP at Tina Bar.
Bulldozers open packages of trash as they push along
while also covering them up. That is exactly the condition we find the money in at Tina Bar. (an opened
package?).
Everyone on my end thinks this is the scenario. Nobody thinks this money was buried by hand and
flooding is too problematic and fails to provide the
covering this money obviously sat in, for years.
August 74-1980 is 4 years. Natural rain and melt erosion from '74 on probably removed n-number of inches off the top layer covering the money. The mini
flood of 76 may have removed top covering, if there
was a mini flood that year?
But, in order for the dredge to catch the money it must be being held on the bottom of the Columbia in the first place. That is a problem not easily understood.
And no DZ defined to date accomodates any of this!
Here's another map of the Tina Bar area...
snowmman 3
And no DZ defined to date accomodates any of this!
at 20:17, there's probably enough forward throw for a no-pull to have Cooper in the Columbia.
And if you subtract the apparent error minute, that's 20:16
I think the data suggesting LZ sooner before the Columbia is pretty weak and shouldn't override the more likely Columbia LZ (based on the money)
Also, since Columbia/PDX area is an easier visual spot, compared to LZ before that, it makes sense?
Assuming Cooper is not a skydiver, the increased risk of drowning might not have registered.
georger 258
And no DZ defined to date accomodates any of this!
at 20:17, there's probably enough forward throw for a no-pull to have Cooper in the Columbia.
And if you subtract the apparent error minute, that's 20:16
I think the data suggesting LZ sooner before the Columbia is pretty weak and shouldn't override the more likely Columbia LZ (based on the money)
Also, since Columbia/PDX area is an easier visual spot, compared to LZ before that, it makes sense?
Assuming Cooper is not a skydiver, the increased risk of drowning might not have registered.
REPLY>
It doesnt even have to be the Columbia itself but any
watershed closely connected to the Columbia that is
affected during "any" high water period. (I errored
above. 80- 8/74 = 5 years 4 months, not 4 years)
Much depends on what Rataczack meant by "hadnt crossed the Columbia yet" while still seeing the "northern suburbs of Portland". Sounds like over
Vancouver or very close to it, but still north of the Columbia. Up stream of Hayden Island? That is still
a long way from Tina Bar so maybe a floating scenario
for some distance until current and debris snag him
further up stream closer to the Willamette Columbia junction, to become a part of the bottom closer to
Tina Bar?
The manager of the dredging operation might have
some solution to this.
The geologist seemed more concerned to show the money was not part of the pre-dredge layer than to
show what part of the post-dredge layer(s) the
money was part of? Surely he would have understood
the need to know, because fact is the dredge layer
and the layers ABOVE IT are/were distinguishable.
I dont see any photo where he is distinguishing those
layers. Or was he saying 'all layers above the dredge
layer are the dredge layer, and there are no further
top layers'? (Its like having a conversation with a phone company employee whoc ant answer a simple
question!) Because IF that is what the geologist is saying then obvious the money IS a part of the dredged layer!
georger 258
We need to know how active T Bar is hydrologically
and what years.
A writer has suggested T Bar has changed its configuration greatly between 1980 and 2000, but
not much at all between 1971 and 1980 (no floods).
The same writer says T Bar goes through wet-dry
cycles and often wet (from what when?).
and what years.
A writer has suggested T Bar has changed its configuration greatly between 1980 and 2000, but
not much at all between 1971 and 1980 (no floods).
The same writer says T Bar goes through wet-dry
cycles and often wet (from what when?).
[replyI have tried without success to find a detailed elevation map of Tina Bar to know exactly what elevations exist there. Is it flat or sloped or what! ? The Ingram photo does not match the FBI excavation photos. But 40ft feet up from the waterline seems consistent in every report. The place the money was found, the slope it was, and distance from the water line on are important because they define the processes that apply at that location vs other locations in that area.
If anyone has a topographic chart of this bar please post it!
If anyone has a topographic chart of this bar please post it!
The best I could find has 10 ft contour lines. The bar goes up (from the river) to about 20 ft at Lower River Road uniformly.
I'm still looking for a better map. I tried to create a profile from the USGS North American Digital Elevation Data, but it wasn't very informative.
Sluggo_Monster
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All,
Okay… here’s what I got (for what it’s worth).
Look at Profile-Line-RED.jpg. I drew a (Blue) line 1393 feet long starting out in the water and continuing east to a canal of some sort (passing through a small building).
Look at Profile Find Site.jpg. It shows the profile along the blue line (west to east). The minimum elevation (in the water) is 7 feet the maximum near Lower River Road is 19 feet. So you start at 7 feet go up to 19 feet and then back down to 11 feet. So it is mostly flat. (Total elevation change = 4 feet.)
The file Datum.jpg shows the map data (especially the vertical datum).
This is the best I can do for now. I’ll keep my eyes open.
Sluggo_Monster
EDIT:
You learn something new every day. The symbol right at the top of Catapillar Island is an "Exposed Wreck". (See Exposed Wreck.jpg.)
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Okay… here’s what I got (for what it’s worth).
Look at Profile-Line-RED.jpg. I drew a (Blue) line 1393 feet long starting out in the water and continuing east to a canal of some sort (passing through a small building).
Look at Profile Find Site.jpg. It shows the profile along the blue line (west to east). The minimum elevation (in the water) is 7 feet the maximum near Lower River Road is 19 feet. So you start at 7 feet go up to 19 feet and then back down to 11 feet. So it is mostly flat. (Total elevation change = 4 feet.)
The file Datum.jpg shows the map data (especially the vertical datum).
This is the best I can do for now. I’ll keep my eyes open.
Sluggo_Monster
EDIT:
You learn something new every day. The symbol right at the top of Catapillar Island is an "Exposed Wreck". (See Exposed Wreck.jpg.)
Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum
snowmman 3
It doesnt even have to be the Columbia itself but any
watershed closely connected to the Columbia that is
affected during "any" high water period.
yeah, but now we're so close to Vancouver, that a tributary story is probably a "money bag came off" and cooper survived story? Cause I think it's harder to hide the body in the smaller tributaries near Vancouver (or their nearby shores?)
If those are really rust stains on that one bill though, I can't understand that though. (as people have pointed out stainless hardware)
Extractive Bleeding
Certain types of lumber such as cedar, redwood, mahogany, Douglas fir, etc., contain water soluble extractives (tannic acid) that can be leached to the surface of the wood. The action of the sun can draw moisture (water vapor) from inside the wood through to the surface. As this moisture is absorbed through the wood, extractives are dissolved and then deposited on the exterior surface as the water evaporates. The deposited tannic acid appears as a reddish brown stain.
clicky
Tannic acid is what gives fresh water its dark color.
It is also found in tea.
A common way of "aging" documents is to soak the edges in tea. Black tea works best.
Make a quart of iced tea in a plastic pitcher.
After the tea is gone, look at the residue on the inside of the pitcher. A white plastic pitcher has a rust-colored stain.
There seems to be a lot of assumption that the stain on the bills is rust, without any science. Since the cash was in fresh water for a while, I would expect a tannic acid brownish stain. It stains boats, fiberglass, wood, and everything else.
Second, the dredge. We know that there is a dredge. Why? Because something keeps filling up the river bottom with crap.
So? That confirms the fact that something is moving debris down the river or they wouldn't need to dredge it.
If small floods or current can move logs, then obviously something as light as a nylon dummy-reserve bag would be no problem.
So, that makes an excellent case for current moving a bag of cash and depositing it. Or, current moving it to a dredge-accessible point and the dredge deposited it.
Either way, the cash could easily have been moved quite a distance by water power.
Until someone scientifically assesses the source of the content of the stain, "rust" is just a theory.
snowmman 3
Until someone scientifically assesses the source of the content of the stain, "rust" is just a theory.
uh yeah, just like anything we say about the bills.
We have no science on the bills, just some photos.
there's lots of questions/theories on the bills
1) the fading of the ink on "some" backs
2) the purple stains on the front of "some" ..seems to connect with/relate to 1)
3) the black bills
4) the apparent rust stain? or whatever it is
5) what appears to me as a "shifted" bundle (individual bills shifted from an aligned bundle..possibly after some decomposition, or before.
6) the leach stains on the FBI folder
7) the apparent insect holes
8) Did the Ingrams rinse the bills before drying? Did that handling remove delicate flaking edges? By the time of the 2/12/80 FBI display, there didn't appear to be any sand. ..yet these were wet bundles found in dryish sand?
9) one or two bundles display the flaking edges in the 2/12/80 photos. Most are rounded with no flaking edges. Is that from 8) or is it from other movement or full decomposition or ??
Yes we have no data and no science. I don't think anyone does, not even FBI. I suspect the FBI data is just "bills in the folder".
They must have the color photos of the bundles on 2/12/80 like I've shown. But for some reason releasing that isn't helpful.
I think Ckret is still holding onto a plant theory.
For instance he doesn't release info that would confirm the dredge is "no way". The size of the dredge pipe and cutterhead for instance, or details on where the output pipe went and how much bulldozing there was.
Maybe the FBI has no data on that either.