DB Cooper

[georger 258]

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The dredging: What is your understanding of How far either side of Tina Bar the river was dredged?
Links?

George

Apparently it was both sides. The sand from the OR side went to that side, the sand from the WA side went to the Fazios.

The only info I was able to dredge up was the indirect reference to the cubic yards dumped on the Reeder ranch on the other side. I already posted that a while back... I exchanged email with the guy who owns the Reeder RV place there (and Reeder beach) and he confirmed that it was his aunt and that sand had been dumped there.

But I have no detail about where in the river they dredged, or how far up or down river.

Tosaw quotes numbers for the cubic yards dumped on the Fazio side, in Oct. '74. The Reeder side referenced Aug. '74 as the dredge time, with a similar, but not exactly the same number of cubic yards of material.
(by Army Corps of Engineers)

I had a thought that dredging in that area, meant sediment deposited, making the channel less deep. That would mean the river flow slowed, dropping sediment. Maybe because the river was going from narrow to wide there? Not sure why there needed dredging. What about other places (which is what you imply, I think.)

OK>> we need to find the exact area dredged which should be fairly easy to do ... (smile). 73? spring of 74
to Oct of 74 ...

[snowmman 3]

Thinking that cooper was employed, and then maybe was part of the huge masses that got unemployed in the Seattle in that period, it might be reasonable to say that Cooper was collecting unemployment checks in some period before the hijacking, maybe in the main aviation related cities (Seattle, Bellevue, Renton, Tacoma, Redmond).

Too late to do anything now I guess, but it might have been nice to have agents visit all places where you would have filed claims for unemployment, looking for people that fit the description.

[snowmman 3]

We can't look at what gear they own today.
There is apparently new gear from '81 and '83

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dredge-hopper.htm

The Yaquina was designed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and constructed by the Norfolk Shipbuilding and Dry-dock Corporation of Norfolk, Virginia, in 1981. Delivered to Portland District in 1981, the Yaquina helps to maintain the entrance bars and harbors on the California, Oregon and Washington coasts. Because of its size, the Yaquina is particularly well suited for dredging the smaller, shallow coastal entrances.

The Yaquina is automated for operations with an unattended engine room and semiautomatic dragarm handling system. Sophisticated instrumentation allows constant production monitoring and enables the dredge crew to maintain maximum dredging efficiency 24 hours a day. The dredge normally works continuously, tying up eight hours or less per week for fuel, water, supplies and maintenance. There are two crews of 20 each, working an 8-day-on/6-day-off schedule, with both crew working the day shift on tie-up day.

The Dredge Essayons is the latest dredge to be built for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Delivered to the Portland District in 1983, the Essayons helps to maintain the entrance bars and harbors on the coasts of California, Oregon, Hawaii and Alaska. Because of its size and dredging depth, the Essayons is automated for operation with an unattended engine room and semiautomatic dragarm handling system. Sophisticated instrumentation allows constant production monitoring and enables the dredge crew to maintain maximum dredging efficiency 24 hours a day. The Essayons is also equipped for direct pumpout. Two crews of 23 each are assigned to the vessel. They work alternately, one week on and one week off.

[snowmman 3]

I had been casting about, trying to guess at what kind of dredges where used in '74.

(edit) NOTE that at the bottom, pipeline dredging is referenced as an open water method (spoils end in open water)..So Tosaw's claim of it being used to dredge to shore seems incorrect. We do know the dredge spoils ended on shore. Maybe some variant of pipeline dredging was used.
ALTHOUGH Ckret's description of a bladed head on the dredger, seems to match pipeline dredging. Maybe it was deposited to a barge though or to shore?

Tosaw was the first reference that identified "Pipeline Dredges" which was new to me. So I've been researching that. Pretty interesting. Tosaw describes pipeline dredging pretty well, i.e. the pipes going to shore.

Here they say they can go 4000 to 5000 ft. But I guess they can move the pipelines as they go, since they're on barges.

Note that here, they say the maximum diameter is 30" (Tosaw said 36") They say the minimum diameter is 8"
So Tosaw may have spun it to a large size. Maybe a smaller diameter was used by Tena Bar.

from http://www.columbiaestuary.org/dmmp/appendixA.html

Pipeline Dredges
Pipeline dredges are commonly used in larger dredging projects such as navigation channel maintenance by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers or port development and maintenance. Generally, pipeline dredges are used for either large cutline shoals or areas with multiple sandwave shoals.

Pipeline dredges usually consist of a large centrifugal pump mounted on a non-propelled, specially designed barge. The bottom materials are then pumped up through a large diameter suction pipe to the barge, and then to the disposal area through a pipeline. The dredging end of the suction pipe is equipped with a revolving cutter-head that breaks up the bottom for easier transport. The pipeline is floated on pontoons, extending as far as 4,000 to 5,000 feet to the disposal site. Greater piping distances can be attained through the use of booster pumps.

The major limitation of pipeline dredging is that the disposal areas must be relatively close to the dredging site. The main advantage is the ability to dredge a large volume of material in a short period of time.

Pipeline dredges are typically classified by the diameter of their discharge pipeline. Dredges available in the Pacific Northwest range from a minimum size of 8 inches to a maximum of 30 inches. Pumping distance and production capability of the pipeline dredges is directly related to pipeline diameter; larger diameter yields greater discharge distances and higher production capability.


Diagram attached from
http: //www.mgs.md.gov/coastal/dredge/sedstudy.html
also from there:

Two different methods are generally used to dredge and transport sediments from channels to open-water sites: (1) hydraulic cutterhead suction dredge with transfer of the sediments via a connecting pipeline; and (2) clamshell bucket dredge with transfer of the sediments via towed bottom-release scows. Each produces a distinctly different deposit. Hydraulic dredging creates a slurry of sediment and water which is pumped through a pipeline to a basin-like depression in proximity to the channel. The majority of the sediment settles to the bottom where it spreads outward under the force of gravity and tends to fill the basin. The clamshell dredge scoops sediments relatively intact into waiting scows which are then towed to the designated area and release the sediment onto the bottom. This method usually produces positive relief features in the placement area.

[snowmman 3]

Time Magazine Jan 24, 1972
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905652,00.html

The sky was slate gray. Snow, which had fallen a few nights before, had turned to slush. About 50 people, some with small children, waited patiently for more than an hour in front of a former supermarket at 23rd and Madison in Seattle's shabby central area. When the doors opened at 10 a.m., the people entered quickly and filled shopping carts with free surplus food—dry beans, scrambled-egg mix and a score of other items. Hundreds of other Seattle residents followed, collecting an allotment of 40 Ibs. per person. In less than a week, workers at the store distributed 125,000 Ibs. of food. Two weeks later, 220,000 lbs. of food had been given away.

Thus the first of three free-food distribution centers in the Seattle area opened just before the New Year; five more will be opened later. The food was supplied by the U.S. Department of Agriculture after more than five months of pressure from Washington Senators Warren Magnuson and Henry ("Scoop") Jackson, who had urged that federal food surpluses be sent to Seattle to feed the city's hungry. People on welfare, those collecting Social Security benefits and most of the 30,500 who exhausted their unemployment benefits are eligible for free food under the new program.

Hunger became a problem in Seattle almost two years ago, when the city's economy began to falter because of the layoff of 63,000 workers at Boeing, Seattle's largest employer. An ailing forest-products industry added to the problem, and the result was an unemployment rate of about 12% at the start of 1972. Of the 1,400,000 people living in the three-county area in and around Seattle, 72,500 were out of work.

[snip]

Seattle will need more than free food. While much of the rest of the country is beginning to feel the end of the recession, and unemployment is leveling off in many areas, Seattle has not yet shared in this trend. Some 90,000 in the state may get 13 more weeks of aid through the Extension of Unemployment Benefits Act signed by President Nixon in December. Nixon's approval of the space-shuttle development project (TIME, Jan. 17) also could improve the city's employment outlook if Boeing gets a healthy portion of the contracts to be awarded this summer. The 38,000 workers still at Boeing were somewhat upset when the Pay Board rejected a proposed 12% pay increase for aerospace workers and then voted to limit the first year raise to 8.3%. Although some Boeing employees fired off protest letters and telegrams to the President, most admitted that they were happy they still had jobs to go to. In Seattle, that is all that matters.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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sluggo: you've already documented the rigger's card thing as myth.

Since we've gotten some confirmation as some of the other Tosaw things I've posted are "myth", maybe be worth putting some short things on your site, to get this down...so people in the future don't regurgitate the same stuff. ...some of the dredge damage stuff, the pills, the fuel truck nozzle freeze, the "hands on the wire inside the briefcase" scenario, the salute, the inspecting of the chute...the fast rig up? Actually we don't know how smoothly Cooper rigged up, do we?

Is there any interview detail on the Cooper rig up? smooth/clumsy? cinching straps? (ckret)

Hey I just ordered the Norjak book..Look out for more inflicted pain-via-post when it arrives!

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Through the years I have been criticized for not reading any books (fiction or non-0fiction) on NORJAK. It usually goes like this; “You’ve spent so much time and effort studying this D B Cooper thing, why don’t you read what others have to say about it?”

Believe me, I have been tempted, if fact, one of the strongest temptations hit about 48 hours ago when the “Tosaw posts” started hitting the board.

Now that there is an FBI agent who is convincing the Agency that the public’s help is needed and that information should be released, I will work to support that path. More than I want to read ANY book, I want to rummage through the evidence files. The files may not contain the truth, but they do contain the facts! (As in; “The facts ma’am, just the facts.”)

The last few days are a good example of why I don’t read NORJAK books.

Sluggo_Monster (Still waiting for a nickname)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[snowmman 3]

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The last few days are a good example of why I don’t read NORJAK books.

I'm laughing at you Sluggo.

The sun came up today. That's why I don't read anything anymore.

I think what's best for us all is to just stay inside and not read anything. The FBI can wiretap as they please and all the answers will come in the mail. The FBI data has the answers and that's all we need.

I'm surprised you need "truth" validated by someone else before it enters your brain, Sluggo. There is just one way to an answer, and you know the way Sluggo?
Lead on then!

ps. I'm done. I had a good time with you folks. Thanks.
hey Ckret. I had one thought when I saw you in the recent shootout photo "See I told you needed to watch Heat for the 300th time...I like to think it helped you keep your head together during the event...JOKE!"

[377 22]

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Everything I read about Cooper screams "pilot" not "jumper" to me. Skills, attitude, knowledge, apparent comfort with situation as it unfolded.

I'd say military aircrew but not necessarily pilot. Not skydiver (based on choice of non sleeved jump rig and how he described chutes he requested). The familiarity with a bailout rig (shown by putting it on quickly) says aircrew to me. I don't see evidence that says pilot, but I might be missing something. The flaps and speed commands could have come from a non pilot. Snow, Sluggo, your thoughts?

It is surprising to me that Cooper let radio comms go without monitoring or controlling them. The cockpit crew could have been being briefed about an ambush and he would not have known it. A cheap pocket sized tunable VHF AM radio would have let him hear everything and cost less than $20 at Radio Shack back in 71.

Maybe he just concluded (correctly) that with a "bomb" and a captive crew, nobody was going to storm the plane. Was he relatively safe in making that conclusion back in 71?

Unless Cooper had a shovel, it isnt so easy to effectively bury something as large as a parachute and harness-container.

If he pulled, he likely dropped the ripcord which has a shiny handle and cable. On my first cutaway (in a military surplus rig) I tossed my main ripcord as taught. My cheap 26 foot Navy conical reserve worked perfectly. Best $25 I ever spent.

I had no money and lots of time back then so I spent the remainder of an afternoon walking the fields looking for my jettisoned ripcord. I found FIVE ripcords in four hours, none of them mine. I was able to trade them for a replacement ripcord and a reserve repack so it all worked out. The sun's reflection off of shiny steel made the ripcords really catch your eye if you poistioned yourself with the sun behind you.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

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REPLY> That is interesting. Why would he think he could fool anyone on that!? This paints the same portrait Ckret has pushed namely: 'had enough superficial knowledge to be dangerous'. (but also
stupid in the face of technical people).

I wont get into the techgnical aspects of this but Cooper is basically describing a situation that would
be dangerous even for himself ... no bomb control.

If this is true it could be very telling ... (and almost a relief!).

Does anyone know exactly what frequency and mode we are talking about here?

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Interrogations and replies
The ground station transmits its interrogation pulses on an "uplink" frequency of 1030 Megahertz, and the transponder replies on a "downlink" frequency of 1090 Megahertz. Effective range of secondary radar is usually about 110 miles, although this can vary considerably from one site to another.

The ground station may send a Mode A interrogation to request the transponder code or a Mode C interrogation to request the aircraft altitude. The only difference between Mode A and Mode C interrogations is the time interval between the P1 and P3 pulses. Ground stations normally alternate the two types of interrogations, and send them quickly enough that the transponder receives several of each on each sweep of the radar antenna. (Modes B and D are used by the military and in other countries, but are of no concern to most of us.)

By the way, the transponder's output power (typically about 200 watts), frequency (1090 MHz), and "side lobe suppression" logic are among the things that your radio shop tests when you bring in your aircraft for its biennial transponder certification check. These biennial tests are mandated by FAR 91.172, and are required for all aircraft, not just those that fly IFR.

Squawk 5678?
Transponder codes are four digit numbers with the digits limited to the range 0-7. For you computer geeks, it's a 12-bit number expressed in octal notation...non-geeks may safely ignore this. If a controller assigns you a code with an 8 or 9 in it, check to see if it's April 1st...if not, you might want to call the facility supervisor when you get on the ground and suggest a urinalysis.

All aircraft transponders now must comply with TSO 74b or 74c. If yours doesn't comply to this TSO then legally you can't even turn it on VFR. Almost all transponders do comply with this but watch out for old Narco AT-50 King KT-75 units...they might be illegal if not properly modified.

Sluggo_Monster (nicknameless)

Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[377 22]

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ps. I'm done. I had a good time with you folks. Thanks

Come on Snowmman, please reconsider. You are a valuable contributor. The forum's average IQ will drop if you leave. Take vacation, not retirement.

And you can't leave without telling us what the aerial photo of your lair really depicts.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[labrys 0]

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And you can't leave without telling us what the aerial photo of your lair really depicts.

He already did

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Here's a picture of the home digs. We call it "The Salt Pit"

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/afghanistan/saltpit-imagery.htm

Owned by Remi #?

[377 22]

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Interrogations and replies
The ground station transmits its interrogation pulses on an "uplink" frequency of 1030 Megahertz, and the transponder replies on a "downlink" frequency of 1090 Megahertz. Effective range of secondary radar is usually about 110 miles, although this can vary considerably from one site to another.

If Cooper was a pilot he probably would have told the crew to shut off the transponder. ATC could still track the flight, but not as easily. He could have then had them fly at low altitudes below ATC radar coverage and perhaps pop up somewhere where the transponderless echo couldn't be identified.

There have been a number of special purpose receivers made to take advantage of undecoded transponder replies. If you make an insensitive receiver tuned to 1090 MHz any signal you hear is likely from a nearby plane being pinged by ATC.

Passive traffic alert receivers have been made for planes, some with a series of directional antennas so you can see what quadrant the signal is coming from.

Others have used it for cars to warn of a "bear in the air" flying speed cop. A friend had one of these and it worked well on freeways in an suburban area. The airliners were too high to set it off (very insensitive). Nearby highway patrol aircraft would trigger it. He got some false alarms but it was useful.

If Cooper was a pilot he'd have known about VHF comm frequencies and transponder codes. I see no indication that he had that knowledge. If Tosaw's quotes about "messages" possibly triggering his bomb were accurate, then Cooper was not up on aircraft radios etc.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 22]

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And you can't leave without telling us what the aerial photo of your lair really depicts.

He already did

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Thanks labrys, I missed that post. 377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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[ltdiver 3]

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Time Magazine Jan 24, 1972
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905652,00.html


...federal food surpluses be sent to Seattle to feed the city's hungry. People on welfare, those collecting Social Security benefits and most of the 30,500 who exhausted their unemployment benefits are eligible for free food under the new program.

Hunger became a problem in Seattle almost two years ago, when the city's economy began to falter because of the layoff of 63,000 workers at Boeing, Seattle's largest employer. An ailing forest-products industry added to the problem, and the result was an unemployment rate of about 12% at the start of 1972. Of the 1,400,000 people living in the three-county area in and around Seattle, 72,500 were out of work.

... most admitted that they were happy they still had jobs to go to. In Seattle, that is all that matters.

So perhaps Cooper was a 'modern-day Robinhood'? He worked for Boeing....Got laid off....cooked up the hijack of 305 with his knowledge and distributed the money to the hungry (that's why you couldn't trace the bulk of the money from one person). Then the public hid his identity from the Feds...

Works for me.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300239738338&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=RSS:B:SRCH:US:104

interesting story about an FBI agent's son (retired teacher) buying an Ingram bill 20 years ago from the Ingram family, for his father, who is now dead. So he's selling the bill on ebay.

There you go! For only a paltry $2,000 you could get your hands on an authentic bill and do you own 'ink-stain' testing. Is it mold? Is it stain from the cow's urine? Is it the secret tell-tail stain they put with the bils prior to the hijacking? It would solve one question in this maze of 'who done it'.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[skyjack71 0]

What epilogue?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Apparently it was both sides. The sand from the OR side went to that side, the sand from the WA side went to the Fazios.

Nothing in Tosaw's book explaines the fact that the money was NOT submerged in water for 7 yrs. It is all theory just like most things regarding Cooper.

After his book was published individuals who read it and did their own research discounted Tosaw's claims and spectulations.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Unless Cooper had a shovel, it isnt so easy to effectively bury something as large as a parachute and harness-container.

The shovel was NOT too far away - that was in the shed at the tower. The forestry or private industry who owned that tower and shed kept tools there to fight fires. I am not sure how far that Shed was from the place it is believed he landed but I will find out in OCT.
If an old lady on a cane can walk it the anyone could.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 258]

More than I want to read ANY book, I want to rummage through the evidence files. The files may not contain the truth, but they do contain the facts! (As in; “The facts ma’am, just the facts.”)

The last few days are a good example of why I don’t read NORJAK books.

Sluggo_Monster (Still waiting for a nickname)

[georger 258]

Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

[skyjack71 0]

Georger, this is not for you - you are just the last one to post and I have never figured out how to make a post without replying to another post.

Someone called my home this morning posing as a Washington State Employee - some people will stop at nothing to make a point.

The word of a State Official was insufficient - and some people will stop at nothing to prove a river reverses it course without intervention...and / or flooding.

There was nothing to cause this phenomen to happen between Nov. 1971 and Feb 1980 in the records.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

Lamah ha'ivrit?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 258]

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Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

Lamah ha'ivrit?

cen - l'ha? dober b'ivrit?

[Orange1 0]

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Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

Lamah ha'ivrit?

cen - l'ha? dober b'ivrit?

ma atah choshev?! - cen, aval achshav rak k'tzat - lamaditi k'tzat b'vet hasefer v'gam b'yisrael, aval hayah shanim b'avar!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 258]

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Cen ani ma'nishmah. Radaq shalom v' tov miod - todah.

Lamah ha'ivrit?

cen - l'ha? dober b'ivrit?

ma atah choshev?! - cen, aval achshav rak k'tzat - lamaditi k'tzat b'vet hasefer v'gam b'yisrael, aval hayah shanim b'avar!

chosehv? b'englit !!! b'vasqisha! when I saw Snowmman's digs I couldnt resist. I guess snowmman meant of temporary nature, like a snowman? But I still
dont know what the two 'm's Skuggo referred to are all
about. More riddles. Snowmman did say several days ago there were 'three more days'. So evidently he is
on the move or busy. Obviously people here know far
more about it than I do. Do we continue or is this the end?