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The luminaries on the thread who are stumbling over themselves to embrace the "official" flight path need to explain exactly which "official" flight path they are talking about.
Do you agree with the flight path shown on the FBI maps, the one where the controller has told several people that the airliner flew "right down the centerline of V-23", the one shown on some illustrations (which may or may not be "official") and supported by some people on this thread indicating the airliner passed east of Portland, the segmented circle bypassing Portland on the west side shown on the FBI maps, or whatever?
I haven't been here while stumbling over myself, but let me offer a possibility since someone now seems interested in the flightpath topic. I say the "official" flight path is the one shown in the plot Sluggo obtained from the FBI and made available on his website. It is not the "red point, blue point" (actually, stickpin symbol) image you analyzed. That image was produced from the FBI-provided original. In producing that image, essentially all the actual plots were obliterated/obscured.In addition to specifying a actual flight path, rather than just a generic "official" one, please indicate the locations of the radar(s) that were used to determine the claimed flight path, the accuracy of the radar(s), how the positions shown were determined, and where on god's green earth those times shown on the FBI charts came from.
The part of the flight path we've been concerned with was produced from data from just one radar site: Mt. Hebo, OR. Two other sites were the sources for parts of the flight over central and southern Oregon. The site at Blaine, WA was too far away since it was at a low elevation and flight 305 was also too low when it was closest to Blaine, just out of SEATAC. The site at Othello had its view blocked by a ridge to its west.
The data coming from the radar site came in increments of .088° (1 4096th of a full circle) for azimuth and .25nm for range. If the likely errors were more than two times these values, the designers would simply have decreased the resolution of the data. There is no point in transmitting data to a precision of 1 if the data is only accurate to 8, for example. The direction center at McChord could have smoothed the data to get better accuracy.
But the coordinate data used to plot the FBI plot didn't necessarily take full advantage of the accuracy of the data the airforce had available. The data from which the plot was made was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the actual accuracy of the plots is ±.5 minutes of latitude and longitude. This was the source of the incorrect info about the '72 searchzone map to the effect that the accuracy was ±.5 nautical miles (should have been .5nm for N-S, but .347nm for E-W).
The positions were determined by computations, almost certainly by the airforce 84th radar evaluation squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th had, and still has, a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was part of their official functions and still is today. The McChord direction center just used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything bigger than a piper or cessna. They did not analyze the system or data from it.
The times would have come from the 84th's output data listing, but someone made a mistake in annotating times onto the charts.If you are fortunate, you will come up with an "official" flight path that is several miles wide (right or left of the flight path centerline) and maybe pinpoint the airliner's position within plus or minus five miles along that flight path for a given time. But don't rely on the times and positions on the "official" FBI charts for reasons that were explained elsewhere years ago.
The flightpath range is only .7 nautical miles wide. The positions are quite reliable within the limits of the rounding errors, but better accuracy would be very helpful. Unfortunately, the system that produced the data didn't need any better. All they needed was to be able to get planes close enough to see "bogies" visually or on their own radars. The times are a bit more problematic.
The times and positions on the FBI charts are reliable if you are aware of the limitations of the data. Analyze the actual charts, not the graphics someone made based on the charts.And while you are at it, please explain the segmented flight path on the west side of Portland, its purpose, and who dreamed up the idea of doing it that way. I have never met a pilot who would do something like that under the conditions the airliner was operating at that time.
Not having been there and participated in the decision with the crew, I don't know why. Since you were there, tell us what conditions the crew was operating under. Had they just been considering (with NWA management) whether or not to land at PDX (their first alternate landing site) since they thought they had just rid themselves of Cooper? What was the short path back to V23 south of Portland?But at the present time there is no high quality data extant for the actual flight path and times along that flight path from about 20 nautical miles south of Seattle until the airliner is near the Fort Jones VORTAC in northern California.
It doesn't locate down to yards at seconds, but it would take a monumental stretch to put them near Tena Bar.
Thank You, Thank You - what this poor old feeble unintelligent mind has tried to tell these people for yrs and yrs. NO knowledge of flights or paths or radar - yet, when they (lots of people) changed the time line for whatever reason I felt that was wrong. It made no sense to a layman, but whatever!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
377 22
Radio Direction Finder.Gun style. Magnetic Wave Detector. SpiralCone Antenna
http://bit.ly/S4Yhng
Not too big a leap from this device to the vibrating girdle VOR detector.
The label (see photo number 8) looks suspiciously like the cut and paste DBC letters sent to newspapers.
Quantico had best be looking into this right away. 
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Well, folks - I am very very tired. You guys won't be putting up with me much longer - I just do not have the energy.
I heard a rumor today that Galen Cook was at Tena's bar recently, so that makes me wonder what the HELL is going on.
Regardless of anything I state - as long as the FBI stands by the DNA and faulty prints system for when Weber was in the Prison System, I will not finish the JOB Duane put on me with that confession.
I have not been kept abreast of what a certain group is doing with the pictures I sent them of Weber. I know the infomation was given to 3 individuals along with a short story I had to tell about Duane's days in WA & OR & ID. That was several months ago.
It did cause a certain individual to dig up names - I have not been made privey to. The FBI does NOT care and I am tired. Very very tired. I put off going to the store until I have to and my energy is very limited. I wanted to get back to WA one last time and finish my search, but at this time that is not physically in the cards for me, nor do I have the monies to continue to throw into this.
I was hurt by the economy like many others in my age bracket. We had a plan for our old age, but some of the best plans have been shattered by the economic of the last 5 yrs.
Our homes were supposed to be our saftey net. Now our homes are not worth what we paid for them 13 yrs ago and many of us want to sell and move to a smaller home closer to medical facilities & public transportation.
Those homes cost more than our current home will sell for.
The senior are suffering with this economy like everyone else.
I heard a rumor today that Galen Cook was at Tena's bar recently, so that makes me wonder what the HELL is going on.
Regardless of anything I state - as long as the FBI stands by the DNA and faulty prints system for when Weber was in the Prison System, I will not finish the JOB Duane put on me with that confession.
I have not been kept abreast of what a certain group is doing with the pictures I sent them of Weber. I know the infomation was given to 3 individuals along with a short story I had to tell about Duane's days in WA & OR & ID. That was several months ago.
It did cause a certain individual to dig up names - I have not been made privey to. The FBI does NOT care and I am tired. Very very tired. I put off going to the store until I have to and my energy is very limited. I wanted to get back to WA one last time and finish my search, but at this time that is not physically in the cards for me, nor do I have the monies to continue to throw into this.
I was hurt by the economy like many others in my age bracket. We had a plan for our old age, but some of the best plans have been shattered by the economic of the last 5 yrs.
Our homes were supposed to be our saftey net. Now our homes are not worth what we paid for them 13 yrs ago and many of us want to sell and move to a smaller home closer to medical facilities & public transportation.
Those homes cost more than our current home will sell for.
The senior are suffering with this economy like everyone else.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Hominid 0
(1) What was the sweep rate (or pulse rate) of the
radar; so that resolution is a function of time
(expressed in) increments of time? Any idea?
I haven't found the exact sweep rate. It was 5-6 rpm. The PRF was 360 pulses per second. The resolution really wasn't determined by these. The digital data was not actually produced by the radar. They fed video like was used for the display scopes into a computer-like device. Each time the antenna swept past a target several pulses would go out and bounce back. The device looked at the pattern of returns and computed where the center of the pattern was and at what time. The programming was different for the two antennas involved, one being the dish and the other being the radiating slot "trough" antenna mounted on the top of the dish for transponder tracking. The device computed an azimuth word and a range word. It would then send out a signal on two parallel telephone lines telling a device at the direction center that data was available relating to target "x", then would actually transmit the target data to the center if and when the center sent a signal to request it. They also regularly transmitted data for a calibration target at surveyed location.
(2) How did their resolution change as a function of
distance/time ? Any idea? How do your values above
change with time and distance as they apply to 305
progressing from SEA to say PDX ?
The range data resolution was basically constant. The position resolution attributable to the azimuth data would reduce with distance from the antenna. That is, the lengths required for resolution, perpendicular to the range coordinate, were bigger as range increased. Not as "fine" at longer distances. As it happens, the N-S and E-W errors caused by the range and azimuth errors would have been about the same in the area we're concerned with. The range error would cause about the same errors for both N-S and E-W, and the azimuth error would as well.
... when I talked to R2 "he" brought up the
issue of distance and resolution (of their signal?),
being less at Portland than it had been earlier, so
I asked him "what's the significanve ? - what are you
saying" and he never really explained except he
seemed to want me to understand resolution was
less the further south 305 had flown. So I finally just
asked him: are you saying radar resolution was
not accurate enough for positional fixes as the plane
neared PDX, and replied quickly: "No Im not saying
that". I'm just saying the radar resolution was weaker
near Portland than it had been earlier".
The resolution was better the farther south the plane flew until the flight got down to the latitude of Mt. Hebo. Just the opposite of what he told you. The angular resolution would correspond to smaller distance the closer you get to the radar.
After passing Hebo's latitude, it may not have degraded because the site at North Bend, OR may have already been able to track the flight even at that point. At some point heading south both sites would have been able to track the flight. The North Bend site was on the top of a high peak with 360° view just like Hebo.
FUNNY!
Good Night
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
georger 264
(1) What was the sweep rate (or pulse rate) of the
radar; so that resolution is a function of time
(expressed in) increments of time? Any idea?
I haven't found the exact sweep rate. It was 5-6 rpm. The PRF was 360 pulses per second. The resolution really wasn't determined by these. The digital data was not actually produced by the radar. They fed video like was used for the display scopes into a computer-like device. Each time the antenna swept past a target several pulses would go out and bounce back. The device looked at the pattern of returns and computed where the center of the pattern was and at what time. The programming was different for the two antennas involved, one being the dish and the other being the radiating slot "trough" antenna mounted on the top of the dish for transponder tracking. The device computed an azimuth word and a range word. It would then send out a signal on two parallel telephone lines telling a device at the direction center that data was available relating to target "x", then would actually transmit the target data to the center if and when the center sent a signal to request it. They also regularly transmitted data for a calibration target at surveyed location.(2) How did their resolution change as a function of
distance/time ? Any idea? How do your values above
change with time and distance as they apply to 305
progressing from SEA to say PDX ?
The range data resolution was basically constant. The position resolution attributable to the azimuth data would reduce with distance from the antenna. That is, the lengths required for resolution, perpendicular to the range coordinate, were bigger as range increased. Not as "fine" at longer distances. As it happens, the N-S and E-W errors caused by the range and azimuth errors would have been about the same in the area we're concerned with. The range error would cause about the same errors for both N-S and E-W, and the azimuth error would as well.... when I talked to R2 "he" brought up the
issue of distance and resolution (of their signal?),
being less at Portland than it had been earlier, so
I asked him "what's the significanve ? - what are you
saying" and he never really explained except he
seemed to want me to understand resolution was
less the further south 305 had flown. So I finally just
asked him: are you saying radar resolution was
not accurate enough for positional fixes as the plane
neared PDX, and replied quickly: "No Im not saying
that". I'm just saying the radar resolution was weaker
near Portland than it had been earlier".
The resolution was better the farther south the plane flew until the flight got down to the latitude of Mt. Hebo. Just the opposite of what he told you. The angular resolution would correspond to smaller distance the closer you get to the radar.
After passing Hebo's latitude, it may not have degraded because the site at North Bend, OR may have already been able to track the flight even at that point. At some point heading south both sites would have been able to track the flight. The North Bend site was on the top of a high peak with 360° view just like Hebo.
Good.
"At some point heading south both sites would have been able to track the flight. The North Bend site was on the top of a high peak with 360° view just like Hebo..."
At what point are BOTH sites triangulating 305?
Then how far south (beyond PDX?).
.thumb.JPG.e3961c3b7e4427878bb877a252be4a17.JPG)
Farflung continues:
This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No?
If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it.
If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points?
You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point.
How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same.
Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit.
R99 replies:
The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.
There is no accurate information on the exact jump point, FBI maps to the contrary.
The Tena Bar money find and location is a single, independent data point. It is not an "outlier", but is a valid point and how the money got there has a rational explanation even if it is not known at this time.
Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredge operations later today.
Robert99
This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No?
If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it.
If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points?
You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point.
How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same.
Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit.
R99 replies:
The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.
There is no accurate information on the exact jump point, FBI maps to the contrary.
The Tena Bar money find and location is a single, independent data point. It is not an "outlier", but is a valid point and how the money got there has a rational explanation even if it is not known at this time.
Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredge operations later today.
Robert99
------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like what SafeCrackingPLF said in his analysis using Occam's Razor -- most probable solution is the simplest, one that introduces the fewest assumptions.
Any accurate information on the dredging would be key.
And again, I come back to the fact that some seem to be ignoring -- how do you explain the pitted, blackened, worn, tattered condition of the Tena Bar bills? Check out 377's 20 -- if he'll let you. If the bills got to Tena's Bar by "unnatural means," ie, someone planted them there, way after the fact, then how did the planter get the bills to look so tattered and worn? Did DBC take the money and chemically "antique" the bills, then later plant a few bundles at Tena's Bar just to throw us all off? Or maybe it was a passerby, at some later time, who found the DBC money bag, after it had been rolling down the River for years, and then planted 3 bundles at Tena's Bar -- just to throw us all off -- just to get a good laugh?
All kiddinh aside, I believe there is a logical explanation, we just haven't found it yet. Any theory that does not explain the tattered condition of the bills is bs, plain and simple. MeyerLouie
smokin99 0
I really would like to find Toms exact comments
about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if
its even on his website? I want to know what "bills"
he's talking about ??? The three bills he received
originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in
Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!?
I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as
representative of all the bundles, all the cash,
what are you talking about?
G.
about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if
its even on his website? I want to know what "bills"
he's talking about ??? The three bills he received
originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in
Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!?
I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as
representative of all the bundles, all the cash,
what are you talking about?
G.
I could find nothing about print bleeds...but he does talk about alignment of the money here....
http://www.citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html
Paragraphs 5 and 6 under the section titled "Discussion". There is also a pic on the right - Figure 5 - that he references
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
mrshutter45 21
after the sand was deposited onto the bar, does anyone know how much and how far they leveled off the sand?
I remember seeing the video Tom made with Brian Ingrams showing the money "fanning out" once wet, does the
process stay in this condition, or does the money flatten back out after long periods under water? or did it remain flat
because it was with the rest of the money inside the bag keeping it bundled up until it was broken apart by the dredge?
If the above questions are not correct then I believe a good search of the bar and surrounding Island's need to be searched.
there must be more clues in those areas, what could it hurt.
Robert99 asked if anyone would help search these area's, I would love to but just don't have the time or funds to travel
across the Country, but would help out in any way I could to start the project.
I remember seeing the video Tom made with Brian Ingrams showing the money "fanning out" once wet, does the
process stay in this condition, or does the money flatten back out after long periods under water? or did it remain flat
because it was with the rest of the money inside the bag keeping it bundled up until it was broken apart by the dredge?
If the above questions are not correct then I believe a good search of the bar and surrounding Island's need to be searched.
there must be more clues in those areas, what could it hurt.
Robert99 asked if anyone would help search these area's, I would love to but just don't have the time or funds to travel
across the Country, but would help out in any way I could to start the project.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
smokin99 0
Farflung continues:
This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No?
If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it.
If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points?
You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking. It just can’t be this difficult to make this point.
How do you know Cooper didn’t jump over Guam? If you can reason that out, or into the equation, then any other data set you possess or covet, should work just as well. It would be a matter of resolution and not process, since they are the same.
Did Cooper jump over Christmas Island? See, two places are on or off the list, but YOU maintain the things, because I want to know what lies in the realm of most probable (least complex)…. to less probable, based upon things which exclude unicorns, wishful thinking and pure bullshit.
R99 replies:
The simplest way for the money to get to Tena Bar is a direct jump or, more likely, crater on Tena Bar.
There is no accurate information on the exact jump point, FBI maps to the contrary.
The Tena Bar money find and location is a single, independent data point. It is not an "outlier", but is a valid point and how the money got there has a rational explanation even if it is not known at this time.
Hopefully, Georger will expand on the dredge operations later today.
Robert99
------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like what SafeCrackingPLF said in his analysis using Occam's Razor -- most probable solution is the simplest, one that introduces the fewest assumptions.
Any accurate information on the dredging would be key.
And again, I come back to the fact that some seem to be ignoring -- how do you explain the pitted, blackened, worn, tattered condition of the Tena Bar bills? Check out 377's 20 -- if he'll let you. If the bills got to Tena's Bar by "unnatural means," ie, someone planted them there, way after the fact, then how did the planter get the bills to look so tattered and worn? Did DBC take the money and chemically "antique" the bills, then later plant a few bundles at Tena's Bar just to throw us all off? Or maybe it was a passerby, at some later time, who found the DBC money bag, after it had been rolling down the River for years, and then planted 3 bundles at Tena's Bar -- just to throw us all off -- just to get a good laugh?
All kiddinh aside, I believe there is a logical explanation, we just haven't found it yet. Any theory that does not explain the tattered condition of the bills is bs, plain and simple. MeyerLouie
.....And then there is also the suggestion that the money find itself might be suspect. That the money might have been "planted" for the child to find.
At least this was brought up the last 2, 3, or 4 times the money find was discussed in minute detail on this forum. No reason to leave it out now......
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
smokin99 0
Something else to ponder:
This from an article in the Oregonian 3/5/2009 found here:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html
"Last year, Carr sent Kaye a sample of the tattered hijacking currency that remains in FBI custody. Kaye did a chemical analysis of the $20 bills and said he discovered a "unique chemical marker," a compound that explained how the bills degraded and could possibly point to where they had been. He declined to identify the compound because he said it could be a key finding in the scientific paper he plans to write about the investigation.
"I'm trying to determine where that (compound) exists in nature," Kaye said."
Then this from Kaye's web site:
http://www.citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html
Subsequent examination under EDS showed that the black Fig 3 Rainbow iridescence on the black bills signaled a refractive molecular layer present on the surface.Fig 3 Rainbow iridescence on the black bills signaled a refractive molecular layer present on the surface.coating was due to a silver on the bills surface. Several potential natural sources for the silver coating were examined, but in casual conversation, a law enforcement officer mentioned that silver nitrate that was used in the early 70's to detect fingerprints. This treatment had the negative side effect of eventually turning the evidence black. Commercially available nitrate test strips were employed and the results were clearly positive. Further examination of the news photos from 1971 did not show any black bills. Although there was no record of any testing done on the bills prior to this analysis, the data indicates the blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70's.
Huh???
1st..Is silver nitrate the compound that Kaye is talking about in the 2009 article or is he holding something back?
2nd..What's up with all the references to the 70s in regards to the found money? ("further examination of news reports from 1971 did not show any blackened bills", "silver nitrate used in 1970s", "data indicates blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70's").
What does the fact that they used silver nitrate in the 70s for fingerprints have to do with anything? Is he saying that the bills were fingerprinted in the 70s using silver nitrate (you know, because that's what was used in the 70s)? When and why would they have fingerprinted the bills in the 70s? What photos of the bills in 1971?
Has this been addressed before?
At the top I see this:
Fact: Some of the Cooper bills were black from unknown causes.
Fact: Silver was detected everywhere on the black bills and a nitrate test came out positive.
Interpretation: Silver nitrate was used in an attempt to find fingerprints on the bills in 1980 but this was not recorded.
So.... is the "unique chemical marker" referenced in the article silver nitrate? Or did Kaye not reveal all of his findings?
And.... are all of the references to the 70s in the body of the report just a slightly unsettling amount of typos for a scholarly effort?
Or am I missing something here?
This from an article in the Oregonian 3/5/2009 found here:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html
"Last year, Carr sent Kaye a sample of the tattered hijacking currency that remains in FBI custody. Kaye did a chemical analysis of the $20 bills and said he discovered a "unique chemical marker," a compound that explained how the bills degraded and could possibly point to where they had been. He declined to identify the compound because he said it could be a key finding in the scientific paper he plans to write about the investigation.
"I'm trying to determine where that (compound) exists in nature," Kaye said."
Then this from Kaye's web site:
http://www.citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html
Subsequent examination under EDS showed that the black Fig 3 Rainbow iridescence on the black bills signaled a refractive molecular layer present on the surface.Fig 3 Rainbow iridescence on the black bills signaled a refractive molecular layer present on the surface.coating was due to a silver on the bills surface. Several potential natural sources for the silver coating were examined, but in casual conversation, a law enforcement officer mentioned that silver nitrate that was used in the early 70's to detect fingerprints. This treatment had the negative side effect of eventually turning the evidence black. Commercially available nitrate test strips were employed and the results were clearly positive. Further examination of the news photos from 1971 did not show any black bills. Although there was no record of any testing done on the bills prior to this analysis, the data indicates the blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70's.
Huh???
1st..Is silver nitrate the compound that Kaye is talking about in the 2009 article or is he holding something back?
2nd..What's up with all the references to the 70s in regards to the found money? ("further examination of news reports from 1971 did not show any blackened bills", "silver nitrate used in 1970s", "data indicates blackened bills were checked for fingerprints using silver nitrate at some point in the 70's").
What does the fact that they used silver nitrate in the 70s for fingerprints have to do with anything? Is he saying that the bills were fingerprinted in the 70s using silver nitrate (you know, because that's what was used in the 70s)? When and why would they have fingerprinted the bills in the 70s? What photos of the bills in 1971?
Has this been addressed before?
At the top I see this:
Fact: Some of the Cooper bills were black from unknown causes.
Fact: Silver was detected everywhere on the black bills and a nitrate test came out positive.
Interpretation: Silver nitrate was used in an attempt to find fingerprints on the bills in 1980 but this was not recorded.
So.... is the "unique chemical marker" referenced in the article silver nitrate? Or did Kaye not reveal all of his findings?
And.... are all of the references to the 70s in the body of the report just a slightly unsettling amount of typos for a scholarly effort?
Or am I missing something here?
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
smokin99 0
Also did I miss where anything was mentioned about the lack of certain elements on the money?
I noticed that 2009 samples of the water and sand were obtained but I can't find any follow-up on the composition of the water - besides the find of a couple of diatoms found on current bills soaked in the water.
In other words - if the water had a high concentration of a certain element like mercury or aluminum (just generic examples - I read that dredging was stopped once in early 70s because of high levels of mercury) could one correlate the lack of this substance on the money as significant? Or is this just another avenue that would be too full of supposition and not enough real data?
I noticed that 2009 samples of the water and sand were obtained but I can't find any follow-up on the composition of the water - besides the find of a couple of diatoms found on current bills soaked in the water.
In other words - if the water had a high concentration of a certain element like mercury or aluminum (just generic examples - I read that dredging was stopped once in early 70s because of high levels of mercury) could one correlate the lack of this substance on the money as significant? Or is this just another avenue that would be too full of supposition and not enough real data?
but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill
Maybe, if he was heading north?
But, if he was heading south things to his right, would be west of the flight path.
Of course to my right could be any where from the 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock position, bur more than likely in the 2 to 3 o'clock positions. Once the location is a beam, it is pretty much behind you.
Matt
But, if he was heading south things to his right, would be west of the flight path.
Of course to my right could be any where from the 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock position, bur more than likely in the 2 to 3 o'clock positions. Once the location is a beam, it is pretty much behind you.
Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
mrshutter45 21
Maybe, if he was heading north?
But, if he was heading south things to his right, would be west of the flight path.
Of course to my right could be any where from the 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock position, bur more than likely in the 2 to 3 o'clock positions. Once the location is a beam, it is pretty much behind you.
Matt
I think she was implying the path was further west like Knoss claims, if they are flying south and looked out the right side of the plane and see Vancouver and Portland, they are way east,way east. Rataczak could have been talking about being at Battleground and saying he see's Portland out the right side if he was referring to PDX, that would be correct.
I just looked, flying on V23 to Battleground would put PDX just to the right
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
Farflung 0
Since I’m capable of multi-tasking, and being damn good at everything being parallel processed (yes, it is what you’re thinking ladies), I’ve displayed my typical generosity, to a fault, by crafting this comprehensive set of graphics. You’re welcome.
It has been the traditional parlance on this fine forum is to admonish individuals to ‘read the tread’, ‘re-read my posts’ or read the ‘transcripts’. Sure that’s a great help, no doubt, but wouldn’t it be more polite, logical and efficient, to quote the artifacts of interest, rather than doom a person to reading some boring text? Yes, of course it is, that was a stupid rhetorical question. No one wants to ever engage in the sort of inefficiencies which produce $1600 toilet seats. At least no one with a functioning brain stem that is.
So what is the mystery which surrounds the flight of 305? After forty years, the effects of myth, lore along with abject manipulation, fabrication and buttholery, have produced a story which appears to be far more complicated that it is in reality. An airplane flew from Seattle to Portland and experienced: time travel, alien abduction, Sasquatch attacks, gubberment conspiracies, employee revolt, and parallel universe barrier penetration along with a few unusual things. So here are the Cliff Notes on what is recorded for all you mere mortals to review.
From the graphic of Genesis: For it is written, god created man and Farf, but that can be discussed later. The Genesis of Flight 305 was at Seattle-Tacoma Airport, which is called Seattle-Tacoma Airport. The crew requested and got runway 16L for takeoff. They were cleared V-23, all the way to Sacramento as obstacle clearance was known to that point. The crew was concerned about not having maps, because they didn’t want to roll the dice, and discover the summit of Mount Saint Helens, via tactile sampling. The crew showed superb safety of flight practices, in spite of having a psycho with a half dozen sticks of TNT in the back of the plane.
Time for take off! Vvvvrrrrooooommmmm…. Time hack- 7:36 brake release! I’ve got bonerz.
Ok, now the plane has lifted off and at 7:42 are reported 14 miles out of SEA.
Then a minute later the back stairs were opened at 7:43, Horray!
7:45 has the tiny ship at, 19 DME with a 170 knots suggested as an optimum speed for their dirty configuration.
Wow, that was a thrilling three minutes. But 9 minutes into the flight and the plane is at 7,000 feet, has the aft stairs open and are averaging 126 knots from brake release. Gosh, so far there isn’t anything exciting going on, save one notable exception, perhaps the remaining 37 minutes will betray a hidden Elvis or Roswell Alien.
The next ‘action point’ for the crew is an Airway intersection named Mayfield (in 1971) which is 45 nautical miles away. At 160 knots this would take 17 minutes, 170 knots- 16 minutes and 180 knots- 15 minutes. So the variance on this leg would be 2 minutes with a velocity ambiguity of 20 knots. I really expected a lot more from the time travel element than some missing 2 minutes, oh well.
On to the graphic of Exodus. The top of the chart has the turn point, aka intersection of Mayfield, with an ETA of 8:00 to 8:02 PM, based upon the last position report and an assumed ground speed of 160-180 knots.
From Mayfield to Portland VORTAC is 41 miles. Just south of Mayfield is the tiny town of Toutle, where the emergency operating placard was found. The placard was extremely close to V-23 and somewhat disappointing for those expecting the parallel universe thing to kick in.
Using ground speeds of 160 – 180 knots, the ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be 8:14 – 8:18 PM. If the time indicator of 2010 (aka: 8:10 PM local) from the chart is accurate, then an updated ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be a tighter 8:14 -8:15 PM. The aircraft remained within the 4 nautical mile Airway corridor and appears to be tracking near the velocity window of 160 to 180 knots. I’m not sure what greater precision would deliver, but if someone has better information they should speak with their data. What will the graphic of Numbers reveal?
Here’s a little anti-climatic, verification of the laws of physics. I know, yaaaaawwwnn, expecting the Sasquatch or Bigfoot reveal is quite the come down, but this does reflect reality according to the records, and a well used -whiz-wheel. But take comfort in knowing that conspiracies do in fact exist, in that people are more than willing to shill, lie, cheat or steal, in order to manipulate others enough to create a conspiracy. So that’s good.
What are the revelations in the numbers? Well that the position report which put Flight 305 at 23 DME, south of the Portland VORTAC, is precisely where they would be expected, if they flew V-23, at 160 – 180 knots, and maintained 10,000 feet. By ‘backing’ out of the 8:22 report, using 8 minutes leaves 8:14 PM, as the ‘over station’ time for the Portland VORTAC. That is in fact the calculated ETA which was the result of ATC communications and simple dead reckoning techniques. The standard of plus or minus 2 minutes was good enough for the Air Force, and dovetails well into FAA standards. I don’t see a vast amount of wiggle room for the ‘nut job’ theories which require secret inside information, but I’m sure they will claim that everything has been sanitized. There simply is not defense for psychosis.
Any questions or belittlements are just fine with me, as I find deception to be among the largest insults a person can perpetrate. I will never understand the desire to chaff and cloud things with wishful thinking, repetitive chanting or steering to some Paper Tiger theory that will ultimately be discovered and tossed aside. Why add the expense and overhead to such a task? Unless of course, this is how these people typically behave. Amen.
It has been the traditional parlance on this fine forum is to admonish individuals to ‘read the tread’, ‘re-read my posts’ or read the ‘transcripts’. Sure that’s a great help, no doubt, but wouldn’t it be more polite, logical and efficient, to quote the artifacts of interest, rather than doom a person to reading some boring text? Yes, of course it is, that was a stupid rhetorical question. No one wants to ever engage in the sort of inefficiencies which produce $1600 toilet seats. At least no one with a functioning brain stem that is.
So what is the mystery which surrounds the flight of 305? After forty years, the effects of myth, lore along with abject manipulation, fabrication and buttholery, have produced a story which appears to be far more complicated that it is in reality. An airplane flew from Seattle to Portland and experienced: time travel, alien abduction, Sasquatch attacks, gubberment conspiracies, employee revolt, and parallel universe barrier penetration along with a few unusual things. So here are the Cliff Notes on what is recorded for all you mere mortals to review.
From the graphic of Genesis: For it is written, god created man and Farf, but that can be discussed later. The Genesis of Flight 305 was at Seattle-Tacoma Airport, which is called Seattle-Tacoma Airport. The crew requested and got runway 16L for takeoff. They were cleared V-23, all the way to Sacramento as obstacle clearance was known to that point. The crew was concerned about not having maps, because they didn’t want to roll the dice, and discover the summit of Mount Saint Helens, via tactile sampling. The crew showed superb safety of flight practices, in spite of having a psycho with a half dozen sticks of TNT in the back of the plane.
Time for take off! Vvvvrrrrooooommmmm…. Time hack- 7:36 brake release! I’ve got bonerz.
Ok, now the plane has lifted off and at 7:42 are reported 14 miles out of SEA.
Then a minute later the back stairs were opened at 7:43, Horray!
7:45 has the tiny ship at, 19 DME with a 170 knots suggested as an optimum speed for their dirty configuration.
Wow, that was a thrilling three minutes. But 9 minutes into the flight and the plane is at 7,000 feet, has the aft stairs open and are averaging 126 knots from brake release. Gosh, so far there isn’t anything exciting going on, save one notable exception, perhaps the remaining 37 minutes will betray a hidden Elvis or Roswell Alien.
The next ‘action point’ for the crew is an Airway intersection named Mayfield (in 1971) which is 45 nautical miles away. At 160 knots this would take 17 minutes, 170 knots- 16 minutes and 180 knots- 15 minutes. So the variance on this leg would be 2 minutes with a velocity ambiguity of 20 knots. I really expected a lot more from the time travel element than some missing 2 minutes, oh well.
On to the graphic of Exodus. The top of the chart has the turn point, aka intersection of Mayfield, with an ETA of 8:00 to 8:02 PM, based upon the last position report and an assumed ground speed of 160-180 knots.
From Mayfield to Portland VORTAC is 41 miles. Just south of Mayfield is the tiny town of Toutle, where the emergency operating placard was found. The placard was extremely close to V-23 and somewhat disappointing for those expecting the parallel universe thing to kick in.
Using ground speeds of 160 – 180 knots, the ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be 8:14 – 8:18 PM. If the time indicator of 2010 (aka: 8:10 PM local) from the chart is accurate, then an updated ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be a tighter 8:14 -8:15 PM. The aircraft remained within the 4 nautical mile Airway corridor and appears to be tracking near the velocity window of 160 to 180 knots. I’m not sure what greater precision would deliver, but if someone has better information they should speak with their data. What will the graphic of Numbers reveal?
Here’s a little anti-climatic, verification of the laws of physics. I know, yaaaaawwwnn, expecting the Sasquatch or Bigfoot reveal is quite the come down, but this does reflect reality according to the records, and a well used -whiz-wheel. But take comfort in knowing that conspiracies do in fact exist, in that people are more than willing to shill, lie, cheat or steal, in order to manipulate others enough to create a conspiracy. So that’s good.
What are the revelations in the numbers? Well that the position report which put Flight 305 at 23 DME, south of the Portland VORTAC, is precisely where they would be expected, if they flew V-23, at 160 – 180 knots, and maintained 10,000 feet. By ‘backing’ out of the 8:22 report, using 8 minutes leaves 8:14 PM, as the ‘over station’ time for the Portland VORTAC. That is in fact the calculated ETA which was the result of ATC communications and simple dead reckoning techniques. The standard of plus or minus 2 minutes was good enough for the Air Force, and dovetails well into FAA standards. I don’t see a vast amount of wiggle room for the ‘nut job’ theories which require secret inside information, but I’m sure they will claim that everything has been sanitized. There simply is not defense for psychosis.
Any questions or belittlements are just fine with me, as I find deception to be among the largest insults a person can perpetrate. I will never understand the desire to chaff and cloud things with wishful thinking, repetitive chanting or steering to some Paper Tiger theory that will ultimately be discovered and tossed aside. Why add the expense and overhead to such a task? Unless of course, this is how these people typically behave. Amen.
mrshutter45 21
"Ok, now the plane has lifted off and at 7:42 are reported 14 miles out of SEA
7:45 has the tiny ship at, 19 DME with a 170 knots suggested as an optimum speed for their dirty configuration. "
do the numbers on those two, 5 miles in 3 minutes?
7:45 has the tiny ship at, 19 DME with a 170 knots suggested as an optimum speed for their dirty configuration. "
do the numbers on those two, 5 miles in 3 minutes?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI
georger 264
I really would like to find Toms exact comments
about his socalled print-exact lineup btwn bills - if
its even on his website? I want to know what "bills"
he's talking about ??? The three bills he received
originally (sent by Carr), other bills he looked at in
Seattle .... WTF are you talking about Tom!?
I hope you are not using a sample of 3 bills as
representative of all the bundles, all the cash,
what are you talking about?
G.
I could find nothing about print bleeds...but he does talk about alignment of the money here....
http://www.citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html
Paragraphs 5 and 6 under the section titled "Discussion". There is also a pic on the right - Figure 5 - that he references
I went over the webpage page by page last night
and there is no mention of 'print bleeds'.
There are direct references to bill alignment and a
graphic but this is an 'inference' from pieces of
several bill-print stuck to one of the three bills Tom
had to work with. Tom only had 3 bills.
Gray seems to be the only source for this I can find,
from what Blevins is citing in Geoff's book. Gray may
have misunderstood Tom which wouldnt be the first
time - one othet example was his citing me as
saying 'two types of silver' and when I voluntarily
called Gray to correct him (vs him calling me!) he
then claimed I had given up my claim to remaining
private and he published my name in retaliation!
Then Tom sits and says nothing, as usual! Tom
reads this forum. It would be almost like Tom to sit
for years and say nothing, when in fact he never
said 'print bleeds'.
Tom says nothing about 'print bleeds' on the CS
website. He does make several refereces to
alignment of bills and he has several graphics about
that. Those graphics of course contradict the idea
that 'all of the bills were in perfect alignment' - they
werent. Anyone who has talked to the Ingrams
knows that! And, Tom's alignment pitch is all based
on "piece of print" stuck to one of the 3 bills he had,
each serie of print at a different angle - with these
graphics (I am attaching).
On the "Washougal Washdown Theory"page Tom
says quote: "The bills were still in relative alignment
when found on Tena Bar which seems implausible
along with the fact they stayed together, if they went
through a dredging and subsequent bulldozing
operation." His words are "RELATIVE ALIGNMENT"
not "perfect alignment".
I honestly dont know what's going on: but it could be
all of this is coming from Geoff Gray and his book
and Tom never said 'print bleeds' or 'perfect
alignment' at all ?
Tom only had three bills to work with, and three bills
are NOT a representative sample of the Ingram find!
Again, it could be that all of this is coming from
Geoff Gray and not from Tom? Did Tom ever say
anything about this here at Dropzone. ??? I guess
we do a search.
This is just one more example of people chasing
phantoms when those responsible won't talk. It's
very poor policy and destroys people's credibility,
not to mention nit-wits then chiming in and using it
when they havent the faintest idea what they are
talking about -
Keep in mind: the FBi was not delivered the Ingram
find intact as found, but after a separation and wash-
job even including chlorine in several cases on some
of the bills, in Mom Ingram's kitchenette. You can
see part of what the Ingrams presented to
Himmelsbach and the state it was in the now famous
photo - attached.
The Ingrams had tried to separate the bills from a
cemented conglomerate (for the most part) and in
fact there is an FBI file on the "cemented bills".
There was sediment in between each bill to some
extent' and covered the outside and around the
stack, holding the whole aggregate together, as the
Ingrams found the aggregate of bills.
By all appearances the "aggregate" looked as if it
had been in place through several seasonal cycles
for quite some time (years).
I could say more but Im going to hold off.
Lets be clear about the Ingram-FBI photo: this
photo was staged for the news. What you see is just
a sampling of the Ingram find. There are other
photos which more accurately relfect the condition
and amount of the money.
Farflung 0
Sure Mrshutter45,
This is the error induced from rounding minutes and DME, versus radar and the usual problems with averaging data points too close together.
T/O to 14 miles south is 6 minutes, or 2.33 miles @ minute, resulting at 140 knots.
NEXT: 19 DME is 9 minutes, or 2.11 miles @ minute, resulting at 126 knots, for a combined average of 133 knots which is from a dead stop to 19 DME south.
Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well.
Thank you for your question.
This is the error induced from rounding minutes and DME, versus radar and the usual problems with averaging data points too close together.
T/O to 14 miles south is 6 minutes, or 2.33 miles @ minute, resulting at 140 knots.
NEXT: 19 DME is 9 minutes, or 2.11 miles @ minute, resulting at 126 knots, for a combined average of 133 knots which is from a dead stop to 19 DME south.
Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well.
Thank you for your question.
NO YOU DO NOT GET IT!
I know nothing about flight paths and planes - I just know what the co-pilot told me and what I read. I read and listen to the STUFF the "experts" post, but some of those are just stuff I cannot comprehend. On that subject I read it and try to understand what they are talking about but seldom intervene.
I stand by what I was told by the co-pilot and the witness reports that do NOT put the plane over Tena's bar. Which by the way has been told to me would make it impossible for the Co-pilot to have seen the Vancouver - Portland area to his right.
The placard was light and there were wind gusts. You do remember that Duane mentioned a grave yard and old mill in the area I understand the placard was found. What that meant I don't know. I believe that is why Sluggo suggested Duane was part of treasure hunt or group that went to WA to find the money. BUT, those that know Duane denied he was gone for any period of time during those yrs nor was there any discussion about such a "hunt".
That was speculation on Sluggo's part - probably to convince me Weber was not Cooper...he presented NO proof of this and my enquiries to his employer did NOT support such a HUNT!
This is just OLE WOMAN talk and nothing other than my TALKING to people Duane knew and talking to pilots.
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