377 22
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georger 258
I disagree Georger. Unless Cooper could jump, he was certain to be captured. I believe he knew he could jump the 727. I was a skydiver and an aviation buff in 71. Jumping unusual planes was an interest. It never occurred to me that a 727 was jumpable. I'd have expected door interlocks to prevent inadvertent depressurization, perhaps controlled by squat switches in the landing gear oleos so that a pressurized 727 on the ground could quickly deploy the stairs if needed in an emergency. I'd also have expected a rather severe pitch down moment from an air stair deployed into the airstream during flight, perhaps beyond the ability of elevator trim to allow for yoke neutral level flight.
Sure, ignorant idiots jumped from jets and landed safely, but Cooper left clues that distinguished him from these lucky Whuffos. He gave specifics: flap settings, pressurization command, landing gear configuration, altitude limit. All designed for slow flight and plenty of ambient oxygen in the depressurized cabin. I think Cooper knew that 727s were jumpable. The number of people who had that knowledge in 1971 was small. The pilots and FE didn't know. NWA flight ops didn't know. Boeing did know and it wasn't an educated guess. It was based on knowledge from extensive flight tests allegedly financed by the US govt who wanted the ability to use the 727 for covert airdrops.
I think Sheridan Peterson may have known this from his work at Boeing in tech documentation. Ted Braden may have known it from having be in special ops in Viet Nam. I bet the list of people with this knowledge who also had the skills to make the jump is small.
Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.
377
I think you are 100 per cent correct abut the list of people who had the skills and knew the 727 could be jumped being very small.
And all of them probably had high level security clearances and knew what the letters CIA meant even though their employer of record may have been Southern Air Transport or other such company.
Robert99
And yours and 377's posts above nicely define the
problem, given to agents: trained in Criminology at
UMich, UWisc, SUI, or at FBI Training Schools; where
trained to focus on suspect populations -
Population I: small pool of persons which may link
to the crime visi-a-vis specific evidence at hand, eg.
Mssrs. Daniel B. Cooper (Oregon), Theodore
Mayfield (Washington), food service workers possibly
ethnic in the Portland area (Himmelsbach etal), etc.
Population II: small pool (described by Robt99 and
377 above who have specialised knowledge/skills).
Population III: larger pool of prior hyjackers & their
associates which may include political groups and
members. (Cuban connection 1960s-70s ?)
Population IV: much larger pool from which random
hyjackings and related crimes come from, but you
look for someone with a known criminal record with
prints on file -
Lacking specific evidence, if evidence does not lead
to a match, the problem becomes statistical in
nature with the investigation driven by agents
trained to look for (statistical) connections ...
The lack of a match in finger prints or photos forces
one back to looking at Populations I and IV whose
members might not have finger prints or a matching
photo on file, for one reason or another. That would
tend to eliminate people who had ever worked for
Boeing or been in the military all of who had finger
prints and photos on file?
Because at length, the real Cooper must match up!
And be a member of some population.
Let's leave it there -
In the back of your mind.
georger 258
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up
And that is precisely what will never happen, because
it cannot happen. It's Jo's story - not Duane's story.
Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.
377
HE WAS! Cooper had enough information to know the -plane was jumpable. It is NO secret that the plane was jumped from the belly in 1968 - you have seen the film Snowman found.
If Cooper has spent sometime in a prison with a pilot or co-pilot in 1968 - he could have gleaned enough knowledge to know it was DO-able after all they spent their time sitting around talking about doing the BIG ONE!
The FIRST calls out of the prison system came from Jefferson, but the local FBI lost the notes these agents made or they have been destroyed. This caller claimed he knew who COOPER was....now remember Weber was not Weber in Jefferson - but COLLINS. Perhaps a convict trying to buy himself some good time off!
Carr claimed he try to find those records and for that I will give him credit.
The man Duane talked about in the N.W. may have been involved with the Boeings. He could have been John's partner in an investment that went sour and failed.
Duane talked about Pullyallup and a man who used to live there, but we were not going there. It was after this he mentions his brother and a partner making an investment in some commericial property they lost because it was at the wrong time. I have not been able to find out who that friend of John's was. The FBI didn't care!
He also mentions a man who flew the area and about flights to Vancouver CA and he mentioned other places.
Was all of the above about ONE person and not 2 different individuals?
I repeatedly told Mr H about this over the yrs. I thought everything I told him went to the FBI - what a horrid mistake! But, I was working long hours and I only had so much time and little money to devote to the past. Yet, now I realize maybe this information all went to the WRONG person...
The FBI did NOT call me and talk to me and ask me if I had anymore information - just what they took from my home in 1996. They never asked me about things connected to the N.W. during my marriage to Duane Weber...NOT one time.
I could not afford to call them and talk to them at length - I left it up to the FBI!
All Cooper needed was to find out how the door opened and when it could be opened....that information was NOT that difficult to come by if you knew someone who had knowledge of the Boeing 727 or someone who helped to develope the plane.
YES, it took more than just a pilot of the 727 to obtain that infomation. Was Cooper connected to one of the actions that required jumping from a 727 or did he just know the stories told about jumping from the aft stairs? How could he obtain the details he would need?
The FBI investigated many of the OPS and others who had knowledge of the aft stairs and the capability to jump from them and they did not find Cooper. They investigated many of them.
They also went looking for smokejumpers with this knowledge....remember they were NOT just looking for a smokejumper, but one with knowledge of the 727's. A rare combination don't you think? Of course they found nothing.
There were lots of yokels out there with enough knowledge to bail out with an old army chute, but not with the knowledge of the AFT stairs on a 727.
Who was gutsy enough to do such a jump? Well, someone who didn't care if he lived or died such as Duane Weber who had been handed a horrible death sentence. Ask anyone about dialysis in the 1970's it was gruesome. Frankly if I had faced what was facing Duane at 45 plus yrs and after seeing his mother die on the machine in 1958 - I would have tried to live my life to the fullest.
An ex-con did NOT have many options in 1971. He was no longer going to be able to do outside manual labor and the prognosis in 1971 - was very limited. Did Weber formulate a plan after the realization of what his future held? What kind of plan could he possible make for the situation?
Well he was an unemployable thief and had spent 16 yrs + of his life behind bars - what were his OPTIONS? He wanted the GOOD life - so how would he get the money he needed.
If he had to go on the machine in those days - he would have lived on the streets - and would have been allowed to die there.
We did NOT have medicare that would pay for his treatments without a permanent residence and disability was almost non-existent. He had no family he could turn too. What would you have done - KILLED YOURSELF, maybe?
Whether Cooper had help in formulating his plan or if it was a plan at all - was it out of desperation? I do believe the ACT was planned, but was anyone else involved?
Sure you guys think Weber was just a bungling ex-con who always got caught and his family wanted nothing to do with him, but WHAT IF he got lucky. What if this man with NO future ACTUALLY made it to the ground how did he get away?
Was there someone with him or did he contact someone after the fact for assistance?. If there was SOMEONE else involved why did they not come forward in all of these yrs? One they could have been prosecuted as an accessory after the fact or worse. Was this other person so fearful he did not talk about it or was Weber himself the one on the ground? I cannot image 2 men keeping this kind of secret for all of these yrs.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Amazon 7
Jo wrote
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.
Jo,
All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.
377
Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Amazon, You have got some "trust issues" yourself. You obviously don't trust parachutes since you carry two or more on jumps.
And now you obviously don't trust aeronautical engineers. And probably ever pilot that works for Boeing and makes first flights, test flights, and/or certifications flights is also an aeronautical engineer.
A good shrink might be able to help with your own trust issues.
Robert99
Nah.. no shrinks needed.. just more time in the air
Tell me Robert... do you go SWIMMING in a boat????
If you really want to fly... get out of the damn airplane.
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up on this forum or count me out. Not interested in phone calls about confidential files, secrets, records etc.
If you want this case solved, put ALL your evidence on the table. If you seek only to prove that Duane was DBC, then play the game any way you wish.
You wonder why the FBI shows no interest in helping you. The rest of us don't wonder.
377
How DO you expect me to do THAT? Number one the FBI or someone else - would be right on top of it and destroy the key information I need. I won't let that happen!
If I revealed the source the FBI would confiscate the files and I AM the only one who KNOWS what I am looking for.
Just deleted the last paragraph! I need the help of a CA. Attorney and that is ALL I can say about what I am after.
I will NOT compromise the very thing that may solve this case. AT least for me if there is NOTHING there - then I have to WALK away....but, I feel the key is in those files.
The prints and DNA - do any of you have an actual realistic explanation for that. WAS Cooper a NO BODY who was never fingerprinted, remember this rules out just about anyone who had actual knowledge of the BOEING aft stairs?
Now for a REAL STORY!
Is this one a FANTASY?
Am I playing a game?
Am I teasing?
Perhaps Cooper had no record but had knowledge of jumping.
Someone who just disappeared off the face of the earth in 1971.
A man who was Nobody! Some one who served in the service, but had no criminal factors. A loner who knew Weber and thought the project was a lark.
What if Cooper did have a homing device on him - so he could be found by his partner. What if what the partner found was a dead or dying man. He was a friend, but how would he dispose of the body? If anyone found his body - it would lead a trail right back to him.
How would one dispose of a body if you had a vehicle and the body and the chute. Would you dispose of all the evidence in different places. Yes, of course.
Can't go far with a body or the chute and he has to dispose of the vehicle.
The body? Try old cemeterys.
The chute? Just about anywhere that would not be in the jump zone.
The nobody's ID? Cut it up and flush it.
The car? Might have been stolen but maybe bought under a fradulent name. Wonder what the car disposed of on Hwy 500 that wk-end was register to? Oh, and the rental at the PDX - the FBI never divulged the person it was rented to.
Wonder WHY the FBI never spoke about that car? Maybe someone removed it later and then disposed of it elsewhere - like Vegas.
There is a cemetery and a grave marker - perhaps there are 2 bodies buried there. Can anyone obtain a list of all of the deceased in WA in November 1971? Freaky right - but, what if one of those name stood out...there would still be DNA in that grave.
Now this could be Jo Spinning a STORY....probably, but it makes just about as much sense as the suspects and idea you guys come up with.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert99 55
Could Cooper have been an ignorant lucky Whuffo? Yes. Do I think he was? Nope.
377
HE WAS! Cooper had enough information to know the -plane was jumpable. It is NO secret that the plane was jumped from the belly in 1968 - you have seen the film Snowman found.
If Cooper has spent sometime in a prison with a pilot or co-pilot in 1968 - he could have gleaned enough knowledge to know it was DO-able after all they spent their time sitting around talking about doing the BIG ONE!
The FIRST calls out of the prison system came from Jefferson, but the local FBI lost the notes these agents made or they have been destroyed. This caller claimed he knew who COOPER was....now remember Weber was not Weber in Jefferson - but COLLINS. Perhaps a convict trying to buy himself some good time off!
Carr claimed he try to find those records and for that I will give him credit.
The man Duane talked about in the N.W. may have been involved with the Boeings. He could have been John's partner in an investment that went sour and failed.
Duane talked about Pullyallup and a man who used to live there, but we were not going there. It was after this he mentions his brother and a partner making an investment in some commericial property they lost because it was at the wrong time. I have not been able to find out who that friend of John's was. The FBI didn't care!
He also mentions a man who flew the area and about flights to Vancouver CA and he mentioned other places.
Was all of the above about ONE person and not 2 different individuals?
I repeatedly told Mr H about this over the yrs. I thought everything I told him went to the FBI - what a horrid mistake! But, I was working long hours and I only had so much time and little money to devote to the past. Yet, now I realize maybe this information all went to the WRONG person...
The FBI did NOT call me and talk to me and ask me if I had anymore information - just what they took from my home in 1996. They never asked me about things connected to the N.W. during my marriage to Duane Weber...NOT one time.
I could not afford to call them and talk to them at length - I left it up to the FBI!
All Cooper needed was to find out how the door opened and when it could be opened....that information was NOT that difficult to come by if you knew someone who had knowledge of the Boeing 727 or someone who helped to develope the plane.
YES, it took more than just a pilot of the 727 to obtain that infomation. Was Cooper connected to one of the actions that required jumping from a 727 or did he just know the stories told about jumping from the aft stairs? How could he obtain the details he would need?
The FBI investigated many of the OPS and others who had knowledge of the aft stairs and the capability to jump from them and they did not find Cooper. They investigated many of them.
They also went looking for smokejumpers with this knowledge....remember they were NOT just looking for a smokejumper, but one with knowledge of the 727's. A rare combination don't you think? Of course they found nothing.
There were lots of yokels out there with enough knowledge to bail out with an old army chute, but not with the knowledge of the AFT stairs on a 727.
Who was gutsy enough to do such a jump? Well, someone who didn't care if he lived or died such as Duane Weber who had been handed a horrible death sentence. Ask anyone about dialysis in the 1970's it was gruesome. Frankly if I had faced what was facing Duane at 45 plus yrs and after seeing his mother die on the machine in 1958 - I would have tried to live my life to the fullest.
An ex-con did NOT have many options in 1971. He was no longer going to be able to do outside manual labor and the prognosis in 1971 - was very limited. Did Weber formulate a plan after the realization of what his future held? What kind of plan could he possible make for the situation?
Well he was an unemployable thief and had spent 16 yrs + of his life behind bars - what were his OPTIONS? He wanted the GOOD life - so how would he get the money he needed.
If he had to go on the machine in those days - he would have lived on the streets - and would have been allowed to die there.
We did NOT have medicare that would pay for his treatments without a permanent residence and disability was almost non-existent. He had no family he could turn too. What would you have done - KILLED YOURSELF, maybe?
Whether Cooper had help in formulating his plan or if it was a plan at all - was it out of desperation? I do believe the ACT was planned, but was anyone else involved?
Sure you guys think Weber was just a bungling ex-con who always got caught and his family wanted nothing to do with him, but WHAT IF he got lucky. What if this man with NO future ACTUALLY made it to the ground how did he get away?
Was there someone with him or did he contact someone after the fact for assistance?. If there was SOMEONE else involved why did they not come forward in all of these yrs? One they could have been prosecuted as an accessory after the fact or worse. Was this other person so fearful he did not talk about it or was Weber himself the one on the ground? I cannot image 2 men keeping this kind of secret for all of these yrs.
Jo, I count 20+ "What if" type questions in the above. Your whole stock of theories about Duane doesn't add up to a single believable "fact" related to the possibility that Duane could have been involved in the hijacking in ANY capacity.
The real question for me is why have you spent 17 years trying to prove that you late husband was D.B. Cooper? What do you get out of it? Is it ego or money?
I doubt if anyone else on the planet would spend 17 minutes trying to prove that their late "dearly beloved", who was a known career criminal, did a specific crime.
In my opinion, you have already wasted those 17 years and you will waste any further time you spend on this fairey tale about Duane.
Robert99
Robert99 55
Jo wrote
I have been trying to work with what John told me and what Duane told me regarding planes.
John DID not explain why he would have had the Boeing designs in his home and I did NOT ask why. He had stated he was a consultant for Boeing for 6 yrs.
Jo,
All those alleged 727 design documents would not have answered the basic questions about whether the plane was jumpable. The answer isn't found in system diagrams or schematics.
377
Yeah.. Commercial division is not really into that sort of thing.. Hell even the pilots in test or certification do not wear parachutes. Those guys just assume the thing is gonna fly first time
When we were building the first 787I was out helping with some "issues" on the shop floor . I was right there on Numero Uno.... I went to the aft cabin door, looked for any obstructions that might interfere with some fun... and volunteered to test jump it for them over Paine Field when they got it flying... They were SOOOO not interested.
Amazon, You have got some "trust issues" yourself. You obviously don't trust parachutes since you carry two or more on jumps.
And now you obviously don't trust aeronautical engineers. And probably ever pilot that works for Boeing and makes first flights, test flights, and/or certifications flights is also an aeronautical engineer.
A good shrink might be able to help with your own trust issues.
Robert99
Nah.. no shrinks needed.. just more time in the air
Tell me Robert... do you go SWIMMING in a boat????
If you really want to fly... get out of the damn airplane.
Amazon, The last time I went swimming was when I happened to be in a canoe that capsized. I may have actually done some swimming in the canoe trying to get it upright again. Does that qualify?
Robert99
Swimmer, Retired
Aeronautical Engineer, Retired
Retired, Retired, Etc.
Sorry Jo, show your cards face up on this forum or count me out. Not interested in phone calls about confidential files, secrets, records etc.
If you want this case solved, put ALL your evidence on the table. If you seek only to prove that Duane was DBC, then play the game any way you wish.
You wonder why the FBI shows no interest in helping you. The rest of us dont wonder.
377
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