DB Cooper

[Amazon 7]

I am always amazed that some people can still get blotter so easily in this day and age

[mrshutter45 21]

Bob, you have nothing to add to this form whats so ever, you have been caught so many times it's not funny, do us all a favor and leave this form so we may continue a mature conversation! something you also know nothing about!

you can't even read a post correct, Robert99 made the straight jacket remark, not me!

" I'm usually right and it's a really satisfying feeling" I have a Mr Squartino which is from a news source that whats to talk to you about your truth and satisfying feelings! are you ready? put up or shut up Bob!

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[matthewcline 0]

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I am always amazed that some people can still get blotter so easily in this day and age

Just make a call from a pay phone to your handler, and it is delivered via a flying saucer driven by a 7' hairy bipedal dude, with a copilot from the grassy knoll!

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[mrshutter45 21]

Matt, on a "no pull" situation what would happen to anything tied to your person if you went thru the trees at terminal velocity?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Amazon 7]

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Matt, on a "no pull" situation what would happen to anything tied to your person if you went thru the trees at terminal velocity?

Depends on the trees.

Most of the trees along the river ( Catepillar Island) will be Cottonwoods which are pretty soft wood that breaks very very easily.

[mrshutter45 21]

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Matt, on a "no pull" situation what would happen to anything tied to your person if you went thru the trees at terminal velocity?

Depends on the trees.

Most of the trees along the river ( Catepillar Island) will be Cottonwoods which are pretty soft wood that breaks very very easily.

so basically unless he hit a tree dead on or a large branch he would plow right thru, kind of what I thought.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[matthewcline 0]

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Matt, on a "no pull" situation what would happen to anything tied to your person if you went thru the trees at terminal velocity?

Depends on the trees.

Most of the trees along the river ( Catepillar Island) will be Cottonwoods which are pretty soft wood that breaks very very easily.

so basically unless he hit a tree dead on or a large branch he would plow right thru, kind of what I thought.

Like Amazon says it just depends on the trees, the way he hit, etc. Things can be ripped open and scattered about, or not.

Burning in, as you described, if he hit the perfect little draw, he could be "buried" immediately, never to be seen again, not sitting at a bar in Mexico, laughing at a bunch of web sleuths.

Best quote I heard when talking to a fellow and asking him to profile "Cooper". "Remember, I have documentation putting me on a mission in North Vietnam when this happened, got it?"

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[smokin99 0]

Don't forget the other piece of evidence found. How does the location of the placard fit in.....or is it relevant due to wind drift, etc.?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

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Okay, just remember you asked for it. But here is the ONE TRUE FLIGHT PATH in all its gory details.

There are details they did NOT address and things they assumed....these guys moved the fight forward by 1 to 2 minutes - wrong! No pilot and no genius, but I actually talked to the Co-pilot and what he told me does NOT support the HYPE they are promoting - HYPE that has stalemated the FBI actually proving who Cooper could have been.

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The airliner was level at 10,000 feet several miles north of this intersection.

They were NOT level as they went below 10K at least one time.

I do not know where this place is you refer to so do not know at which point you reference. When you are saying 10K - are you referencing the distance from the ground at ALL TIMES? Would really have been a roller coaster flight! In other words - the ground would have been closer at several points. Just Stupid OLD WOMAN question.

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While on the ground in Seattle, the airliner crew was informed that the Chief FAA Psychologist in Washington, DC was predicting that Cooper would take a hostage with him when he jumped and that he would blow the aircraft up as he was leaving it.

It was at this particular time they told the Co-pilot. Do what you want! Well, why don't you ask the co-pilot WHAT he actually did and not what the public has been told for yrs.

What would you do? You would try to get the damn guy off the plane - accommodating him as soon as he knew Tina had moved forward and was in NO jeopardy. The co-pilots only motive was to GET Cooper off that plane at that point. Why the guy on the ground was "busy".

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However, it is beyond my comprehension to think that Rataczak would then fly directly over the city of Portland.

Damn right on that account!

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The finding of the money at Tena Bar in 1980 is, in my opinion, an extremely important clue as to the flight path. If you have visited that area (and I made it a point to do so in November 2009), you probably noticed that the NW Lower River Road is built on top of a levee.

This levee effectively eliminates the possibility of the money arriving at Tena Bar from an easterly direction

.


Exactly what Cooper tried to do - make very one think he bought it in the Columbia. The money Cooper retrived yrs later was damaged so he threw it into the river at 3 different locations places. Only part of what he threw in the river was ever found.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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The finding of the money at Tena Bar in 1980 is, in my opinion, an extremely important clue as to the flight path.

Only if you support the "theory" that Cooper splashed!

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It should be remembered that there seems to be general agreement that the money had not spent much time in water, that it was found several feet above the normal Columbia River water level (which is only about 5 to 7 feet above sea level at Tena Bar), that the money was still connected to some rubber bands, and appeared not to have been at the location where it was found for very long. All of this suggests to me that the money had spent most of its time on land and probably hadn't traveled very far (maybe just a few hundred feet) from where it landed.

More than just a few feet. It was put there! I know this and it is why I am still here, but there were 2 places he made actual plants - the 3rd was just thrown into the river...but, that is just me talking and NO one hears me, because I am a liar, delusional, a teller of fantasty stories and off my rocker.

Sorry, I am supposed to stay neutral.

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The FBI notes contain a statement that at 8:22PM PST the airliner was 23 DME (or Nautical) miles south of PDX. If the airliner stayed on the V-23 centerline, it is questionable that it could have been at that position at that time.
Communication time lags need to be included in this and they are not adequately established in the notes.

Good points!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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R2 felt rather strongly that Cooper could not have landed in the scenario 99 describes due mainly to a
lack of proximity of 305 to Tena Bar.

R2 emphasized that the operator at PDX was NOT watching his radar as 305 flew by! That will be an issue for future comment.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Farflung 0]

Warning: This post contains historical maps.

I thought I would compare some historical maps around the Columbia River and V-23 for no other reason than to avoid violating Occam, in ways I dare not imagine. Oh goodness.

Well it turns out there were (past tense) a couple islands near I-5 and under V-23 called Hayden and Tomahawk. Pretty much a couple sand bars with some trees and wildness just like ‘Deliverance’. Ooooh that sounds so dangerous.

Then around 1970 some mens with big tools and equipments, began to build and construct on those two islands. Those big burley mens were digging, clawing and mercilessly pounding those islands with their huge equipments. I can only imagine what it must have been like. Oh dear.

Then the mens took a nap for a while, then in 1978 they began their pounding and pounding, while building cute little homes for boats, so arrogant people who are full of themselves would have a place to live. That’s so sweet.

My gracious what must it have been like with all that material being pushed and grabbed with those big sweaty mens, in their hard hats driving back and forth across those islands so much, that they became one (I feel faint). I wonder if there was any buried treasure. Gosh that just too weird to think about. Oh well.

[skyjack71 0]

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Warning: This post contains historical maps.

I thought I would compare some historical maps around the Columbia River and V-23 for no other reason than to avoid violating Occam, in ways I dare not imagine. Oh goodness.

Well it turns out there were (past tense) a couple islands near I-5 and under V-23 called Hayden and Tomahawk. Pretty much a couple sand bars with some trees and wildness just like ‘Deliverance’. Ooooh that sounds so dangerous.

Then around 1970 some mens with big tools and equipments, began to build and construct on those two islands. Those big burley mens were digging, clawing and mercilessly pounding those islands with their huge equipments. I can only imagine what it must have been like. Oh dear.

Then the men took a nap for a while, then in 1978 they began their pounding and pounding, while building cute little homes for boats, so arrogant people who are full of themselves would have a place to live. That’s so sweet.

My gracious what must it have been like with all that material being pushed and grabbed with those big sweaty mens, in their hard hats driving back and forth across those islands so much, that they became one (I feel faint). I wonder if there was any buried treasure. Gosh that just too weird to think about. Oh well.

Where is or was Government Island in relation the Islands you are showing. Was it between Camas and Washougal if I remember correctly. At one time a boy went over there and claimed to have seen a chute hanging from a tree. I don't known when - he was with his father and it was after Nov. 24, 1971.

I know when I was in WA in 2010 the new I-5 was built so things had changed. Duane had told me about Government Island and showed me were the Ferry used to be...on the WA side of the river. That is where they found the homemade camper and the truck that was in question for several day. They claimed it had been stolen while its owner was away for the Thanksgiving Holidays - therefore he did NOT even know it was missing until he returned.

Funny - one of the suspects was married to a woman who made a bird house with an old tag for a homemade camper....a WA tag.

Just more trivia!

P.S. Duane used to work on Government Island as if anyone can believe anything he ever told me. He never told me what he did on government Island and how did he know about the camper that was found - wait maybe I found this out later. Maybe my mind is getting all scrambled. Well, he did tell me about the Ferry.

There is a man buried in Washougal in a grave in a cemetery in 1971 near the Columbia. The plot supposedly contained only the individual who died in 1971. I forget what the cemetery records showed. Strange Duane would tell me about this grave and that he used to know the man.

Now could we make this sound any stranger - but, old stories have a way of re-surfacing.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 60]

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R2 felt rather strongly that Cooper could not have landed in the scenario 99 describes due mainly to a
lack of proximity of 305 to Tena Bar.

R2 emphasized that the operator at PDX was NOT watching his radar as 305 flew by! That will be an issue for future comment.

R2 was the controller for the hijacked airliner and not one of the PDX controllers. This is true even if R2 and the PDX controllers were located in the same room in the Portland tower building.

Since the airliner was neither taking off from or landing at PDX, the approach controller and departure controller, plus the tower controller, were not involved with the hijacked flight.

Robert99

[Robert99 60]

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Don't forget the other piece of evidence found. How does the location of the placard fit in.....or is it relevant due to wind drift, etc.?

Smokin, The stair placard is relevant.

Quite a few assumptions and guesses had to be made in the calculation of what is actually the MINIMUM distance that the placard would have been blown downwind and these are listed in the write-up on Tom Kaye's web site.

Basically the wind was from the southwest and the placard was found at an elevation of about 1500 feet above sea level. Check Tom's web site for the information used in the actual calculations and the explanation of the results. This includes the coordinates of the location where the placard was found.

It appears that the airliner was actually just slightly (about a mile) west of the centerline of V-23 when the placard seperated, using relatively conservative assumptions in the calculations.

A straight line from this point to the point mentioned in the FBI notes, discussed yesterday, passes over the western side of Vancouver Lake. If the airliner was slightly west of the V-23 centerline south of PDX, again as discussed yesterday, then the flight would have passed directly over Tena Bar.

In any event, there is a distinct possibility that the airliner passed over Tena Bar if it did not maintain a strict track down the V-23 centerline.

Robert99

[Robert99 60]

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Okay, just remember you asked for it. But here is the ONE TRUE FLIGHT PATH in all its gory details.

There are details they did NOT address and things they assumed....these guys moved the fight forward by 1 to 2 minutes - wrong! No pilot and no genius, but I actually talked to the Co-pilot and what he told me does NOT support the HYPE they are promoting - HYPE that has stalemated the FBI actually proving who Cooper could have been.

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The airliner was level at 10,000 feet several miles north of this intersection.

They were NOT level as they went below 10K at least one time.

I do not know where this place is you refer to so do not know at which point you reference. When you are saying 10K - are you referencing the distance from the ground at ALL TIMES? Would really have been a roller coaster flight! In other words - the ground would have been closer at several points. Just Stupid OLD WOMAN question.

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While on the ground in Seattle, the airliner crew was informed that the Chief FAA Psychologist in Washington, DC was predicting that Cooper would take a hostage with him when he jumped and that he would blow the aircraft up as he was leaving it.

It was at this particular time they told the Co-pilot. Do what you want! Well, why don't you ask the co-pilot WHAT he actually did and not what the public has been told for yrs.

What would you do? You would try to get the damn guy off the plane - accommodating him as soon as he knew Tina had moved forward and was in NO jeopardy. The co-pilots only motive was to GET Cooper off that plane at that point. Why the guy on the ground was "busy".

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However, it is beyond my comprehension to think that Rataczak would then fly directly over the city of Portland.

Damn right on that account!

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The finding of the money at Tena Bar in 1980 is, in my opinion, an extremely important clue as to the flight path. If you have visited that area (and I made it a point to do so in November 2009), you probably noticed that the NW Lower River Road is built on top of a levee.

This levee effectively eliminates the possibility of the money arriving at Tena Bar from an easterly direction

.


Exactly what Cooper tried to do - make very one think he bought it in the Columbia. The money Cooper retrived yrs later was damaged so he threw it into the river at 3 different locations places. Only part of what he threw in the river was ever found.

Jo, You need to explain some of your explanations. At least I don't understand some of them.

But here is the story on the altitudes. In normal flight between airports, airliners cruise at a constant pressure altitude which is the altitude above mean sea level. The distance above the ground varies constantly unless the airliner is over a very flat surface.

What the co-pilot may have done, once Tina got to the cockpit and Cooper got himself on the stairs, was discussed here several months ago. You might want to check into it again.

Robert99

[Robert99 60]

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Doesn't sound like the Kaye team agrees with you, 99:

Excerpt from their website under Fair Use rules:
(italics are mine)

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'The results of the two DME calculations [3,7] were similar in that both airspeed totals were close to the reported indicated airspeed of 165 knots indicated air speed (190 mph). As a cross check on the flight path, this points away from the Washougal theory because there is not enough time or speed involved to fly ten miles further east and still return on time to the southern most DME position via Portland's airspace.

The FBI transcripts identify the towns of Toledo, Pigeon Springs, Ariel, Highland, Battle Ground and Vancouver as being either on or near the radar recorded flight path. This information coincides with the FBI map and does not support an overflight of Tena Bar or the Washougal River.

The placard was recovered at the location shown in Figure 2 which is near Toutle, and 20 miles north of the Ariel Washington jump zone. This location is almost directly under the FBI flight path. Giving the placard a free fall time of nine minutes and a south west cross wind of 18 knots, then the plane would have to been 2.68 miles from where the placard was recovered and 2.6 miles west of V23. This distance is well within the official 8 mile width for the Victor airway and is 4 miles east of the theoretical Tena Bar flight path. This data places a constraint on the planes position approximately six minutes before the jump and suggests flight #305 was on the original FBI flight path.

Anecdotally, the original air traffic controller that handled the Northwest Airlines flight north of Portland was interviewed directly over the phone. He volunteered that he was sure that Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar...'

Blevins, I am so, so sorry to disappoint you. But if the numbers that are causing you some concern are the ones in the third paragraph, then relax.

Those numbers are the very same ones that I worked up and sent to Tom Kaye by e-mail. I have just compared my e-mail to Tom with what is in that third paragraph. To repeat, they are the same numbers.

Keep in mind that Tom Kaye and I don't necessairly have the same writing style. There is more than one way to say the same thing and each of those ways can be equally "correct". Also, we may draw different conclusions from the same data. Since you are a published author, I am sure that you must be aware of that.

To clear up another point that you haven't asked yet, the location of the town of Toutle is not the same on the 1971 and present day maps. There was an extensive discussion about this on this thread several months ago.

Farflung resolved the problem by showing what happens when you move the town of Toutle 2 or 3 miles west on the old maps. For more information, check the thread.

This should not cause any problems with the placard discussion or calculations with the possible exception of the references of where the placard was found with respect to Toutle. WGS84 maps and GPS coordinates were used in the placard calculations.

However, if I ever find the spare time, I will a good look at the maps again. But don't expect any errors to turn up.

Robert99

[georger 268]

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I hear you...but you are still attempting to fit a round peg into a square hole. Putting 305 into a Tena Bar overflight is going to require evidence that the flight actually flew over that area...and that evidence is not forthcoming unless you have something that the FBI and the whiz boys at NWA missed.

Also...you are asking people to accept the idea that 305 didn't know if they were on the east or west side of the interstate. Let's just say it presents problems.

You dont seem to understand what 99 has been
saying. Literally.

But more importantly: why would you be asking if
the 305 crew didnt know if they were on the east or
west side of I-305? When you yourself have already
stated 1000 times "the WeatherUnderground data
precludes anyone on 305 seeing ANYTHING ON THE
GROUND?" ???

By "know" you mustbe referring to something other
than 305 having visual contact with the ground ?

What "knowing" are you referring to the 305 crew
having and when (and did not have) all at the same
time?

Likewise: you keep referring to Kaye's experiment
where his bills fanned out when he placed his
bundled bills in flowing water. Indicating Cooper
bundles never arrived by water to Tena Ba.

Do you think Kaye's result is a new law of nature
and Universal? Should we write this up and publish it
in Science or Nature? Physics Review?

How far do you think Kaye's result extends as a
Universal Law of Nature in all circumstances? Are you
willing to bet your business on it? Sounds like you
are!

Or could there possibly be more involved than
Kaye's single experiment covers ?

I think the point is perfectly clear -

[Farflung 0]

Wow, that was ‘poetic’ license regarding Tom Kaye? Poetry to a man? Well Ok then, now it all makes sense. You just go ahead and ‘respect’ Tom all you want RobertMBlevins. Not a lot of men would advertise how they write poetry to other men, and I’m one of them for the simple reason that I don’t and never will. But you go boy, and I hope Tom responds in kind, you two are perfect for each other. You’re right about the museum hiring smart people, same way Penn State hired smart people to guide and train men and young boys about ‘teamwork’ and life. It’s good to worship people who can then be elevated above others, I hope the tradition continues.

Hey, did Tom Kaye, the man you ‘respect’ conduct an experiment where the money was tossed in the river while in a ….. wait for it….. little longer…… canvas bag? I mean putting a single bundle on a fishing line is sort of comical since there is NO evidence of a single bundle ever traveling anywhere. I guess you didn’t know that just like not knowing which way the Columbia flowed, Captain Scott talking to Cooper, the Dan Cooper comic not being published while Kenny was on Shemya, Jet A fuel freezing in Seattle and a jet engine vapor locking.

Nope, the money was either in a canvas bank bag or in the group of bundles found by Brian. How exactly those bundles were oriented and bound is a mystery since Brian’s father tried to separate the bills on his kitchen table. Don’t know how Tom would know different, but you have played victim to far worse then denied it later.

So what would happen to a canvas bag filled with cash being ‘wheel rolled’ in environments where rabid construction and low value materials were being processed by heavy equipment? I already know your answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

You might want to consider using some standard research techniques since the University of Buttlick doesn’t seem to work too well for you. But I know you won’t.

[Robert99 60]

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I hear you...but you are still attempting to fit a round peg into a square hole. Putting 305 into a Tena Bar overflight is going to require evidence that the flight actually flew over that area...and that evidence is not forthcoming unless you have something that the FBI and the whiz boys at NWA missed.

Also...you are asking people to accept the idea that 305 didn't know if they were on the east or west side of the interstate. Let's just say it presents problems.

Blevins, You have NOT heard me at all. I have just read you quote of Tom Kaye in message #35677 and, unless you have now modified it, I completely agree with it.

Apparently you have not read or paid any attention to what I have written on these subjects over the last two or three years. I realize that your crusade for KC has had most of your attention on this thread but if you want to know what I have been doing here then you might try reading the thread.

About three years ago, I wrote several short "articles" about the problems of times, locations, and other matters associated with the FBI maps. After studying those maps and doing some calculations, I used such phrases as "the times are not to be trusted", the "locations are not reliable", "these maps should be used with caution", etc., etc.

If you are interested, you may still be able to find those "articles" on Sluggo's web page.

Tom Kaye is aware of these "articles" since I gave him a copy of them.

In addition, I have repeatedly stated on this thread (including within the last two or three days) that the Seattle ATC radio transcripts have been "sanitized". By that, I mean that someone deliberately (it could not have been done accidentally) removed all information that was necessary to determine the precise location of the hijacked airliner between a point about 20 miles south of the Seattle VORTAC until the airliner was just north of the Fort Jones, CA VORTAC.

Let me repeat the above in plain English. In the Portland/Vancouver area, the FBI maps are not believable. The times are wrong, the locations (including those represented as being radar plots) are highly questionable, the one with a segmented circle around the west side of Portland borders on the absurd.

No one has a realistic flight path for the airliner in the Portland area. That includes the FBI (unless it is still in their files), you, Tom Kaye, and myself.

Blevins, you are saying that you must have a chart with a line passing over Tena Bar on it before you believe that the airliner flew over Tena Bar. No such thing apparently exists.

But the money did find its way to Tena Bar. I don't think it floated down the Columbia River, I don't think it walked in by itself, and I don't think someone deliberately buried it there. That narrows the possibilities down to about a single one.

Where is your proof about how the money got to Tena Bar? Where is your proof that the airliner didn't fly over Tena Bar? Where is your proof that the airliner was even hijacked?

I look forward to seeing your proof for the above matters.

Robert99

[georger 268]

It's that nagging little 'three bundles' thing that is the problem. .

[mrshutter45 21]

"Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar."

do you have a map showing V23?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[Robert99 60]

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"Flight #305 never left the V23 airway the entire time he had them on radar."

do you have a map showing V23?

V-23 is shown on a number of charts. If you are also interested in the topographical information, then see the standard FAA sectional chart that is used for VFR flying.

If you are interested in the actual chart (or at least the navigational information) that the hijacked airliner crew was using during the flight from Seattle to Reno, then take a look at the Low Altitude Enroute IFR chart that is on Sluggo's web page (and brought to you at a cost of several hundred dollars).

However, the airliner crew was probably using the Jeppesen version of that chart. Same information but arranged slightly differently.

Robert99

[Robert99 60]

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Blevins writes: IMHO sometimes common sense is lacking around this place.

R99 replies: A brilliant observation! I agree with you and I'm sure several other people on this thread do also.

Blevins writes: I'm surprised the Seattle FBI didn't figure it out.

R99 replies: Maybe the FBI figured out that there wasn't anything to "figure out".

Blevins writes: But when people don't play straight I will often question their results.

R99 replies: Who is not playing straight with you? Can you list some names and examples of what is not "straight"?

Robert99

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[airtwardo 7]

My Completely Off-The-Wall Guess on WHY the Hijacker Would Plant the Bills 18-24 Months Before They Were Discovered:

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I have trouble with the planting scenario, the where and the way it was found doesn't lend itself to the theory. Wouldn't a 'planting' be more obvious and in a place it 'surely' would be eventually found?

-burying it in the sand is throwing money away to me.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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