monk71 6 #66576 yesterday at 03:07 AM 12 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Ok, here is some fast snd dirty detective work... Jerry Alter parts his hair on the right.. all online images I found of him.. on the right. That first head shot image posted of his hair parted on the left is reversed.. I found the full image on find a grave which is also reversed... the shirt is buttoned on the wrong side.. Men's shirt buttons are on the right not the left.. image reversed. So, he parts his hair on the right.. not Cooper. image reversed. Good catch Fly! You certainly have a knack for spotting details in images. Thanks for your time. Ever thought about finding stolen art (in addition to guitars)? There is actually a public database: https://artcrimes.fbi.gov/ I don't agree that a hair part should exclude anyone automatically, but I suppose it is something not only of habit (which could be changed) but also where a person's hair naturally parts. This couple is fascinating. Their story kept coming up now and then in my Cooper searches, and now I know why... many different commenters noted he could have been Cooper. Even Ryan chimed in once: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boeing 377 0 #66577 23 hours ago Trivia issue. No such thing as an NB6 or NB8 parachute canopy. NB is Navy Back and refers only to harness-container assemblies not canopies that they might contain. In USN service NB6 normally had a 26 ft conical canopy and NB8 had a 28 ft C9 canopy. But riggers and sport jumpers didn’t always follow military convention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66578 18 hours ago 8 hours ago, monk71 said: Do you know what it means by "with wave in front, up over his forehead"? Is this wave somehow referring to his shades or a marcelled hair wave? I've always taken this to mean that he the front of his hair, where it was parted, was more wavy than the rest. Probably had a bit of volume to it as well as though mostly his hair was slicked back but slightly higher in the front. Think Cary Grant or another leading man from that era. Wavy hair is just the stop between straight and curly hair and there are a lot of different levels of waviness. It's nothing to do with sunglasses; I'd say the black and white picture there is the closest to this description. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66579 15 hours ago 2 hours ago, lxchilton said: I've always taken this to mean that he the front of his hair, where it was parted, was more wavy than the rest. Probably had a bit of volume to it as well as though mostly his hair was slicked back but slightly higher in the front. Think Cary Grant or another leading man from that era. Wavy hair is just the stop between straight and curly hair and there are a lot of different levels of waviness. It's nothing to do with sunglasses; I'd say the black and white picture there is the closest to this description. It is another way to describe marceled... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66580 15 hours ago (edited) 8 hours ago, Boeing 377 said: Trivia issue. No such thing as an NB6 or NB8 parachute canopy. NB is Navy Back and refers only to harness-container assemblies not canopies that they might contain. In USN service NB6 normally had a 26 ft conical canopy and NB8 had a 28 ft C9 canopy. But riggers and sport jumpers didn’t always follow military convention. Not sure what you are getting at... Cossey was the only source for NB6/8 "container".. The packing card said it had a 24' Steinthal canopy.. unlikely a smaller one would be used. Hayden said his chutes were similar,,, an NB6 is nothing like the Pioneer P2 left behind, NB6's are sage Green,, Hayden said it was olive drab with tan harness and Cossey said it was sage green container and sage green harness.. Cossey lied about his records, never supplied them and even claimed he did. Cossey later claimed his chutes were used and the back chute left behind was returned to him.. Cossey believed Emrich was grabbing the two back Chutes from Issaquah as well as the two fronts.. Emrich was contacted and told to just send the fronts as the backs were secured from Hayden... but Cossey still believed his back chutes were used... So, Cossey was contacted and described his chutes not Hayden's.. When he discovered his error he never corrected it. It is extremely unlikely Cooper used an NB6/8, it was most likely a military version similar to the early 1940's civilian tan P2 left behind. Edited 15 hours ago by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66581 15 hours ago 11 hours ago, monk71 said: Good catch Fly! You certainly have a knack for spotting details in images. Thanks for your time. Ever thought about finding stolen art (in addition to guitars)? There is actually a public database: https://artcrimes.fbi.gov/ I don't agree that a hair part should exclude anyone automatically, but I suppose it is something not only of habit (which could be changed) but also where a person's hair naturally parts. This couple is fascinating. Their story kept coming up now and then in my Cooper searches, and now I know why... many different commenters noted he could have been Cooper. Even Ryan chimed in once: The hair part side isn't a 100% elimination but it is really close.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66582 15 hours ago (edited) 32 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: It is another way to describe marceled... Someone might use it that way, however, someone who has wavy hair naturally does not have marcelled hair as “marcelling” is a method of artificially adding waviness to hair. This is another “all dolphins are whales but not all whales are dolphins” situations; someone might use the word marcelled to mean generally wavy or they might mean that they did their hair like it was the 1930s. Since it was 1971 I tend to think natural waviness makes a lot more sense. Edited 15 hours ago by lxchilton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66583 14 hours ago (edited) 13 minutes ago, lxchilton said: Someone might use it that way, however, someone who has wavy hair naturally does not have marcelled hair as “marcelling” is a method of artificially adding waviness to hair. This is another “all dolphins are whales but not all whales are dolphins” situations; someone might use the word marcelled to mean generally wavy or they might mean that they did their hair like it was the 1930s. Since it was 1971 I tend to think natural waviness makes a lot more sense. No it isn't... "Marcelling" is artificially adding the waves... People can have natural marceled hair... But most people would use the term wavy.... "marceled" is a subset of the more general term wavy... A 20 year old in 1971 would likely say "wavy", a 70 year old might say "marceled".. as it is an older reference. Edited 14 hours ago by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66584 14 hours ago 2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: No it isn't... "Marcelling" is artificially adding the waves... People can have natural marceled hair... But most people would use the term wavy.... "marceled" is a subset of the more general term wavy... A 20 year old in 1971 would likely say "wavy", a 70 year old might say "marceled".. as it is an older reference. I don't think we are disagreeing with one another--I am just saying that if someone said "marcelled" then Cooper's hair was probably just wavy à la young Nixon. Gregory is the one who said "marcelled" and he was older, correct? Ultimately I don't want people thinking that someone with wildy wavy hair has to be Cooper or some other misguided thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66585 14 hours ago Examples of waviness--funnily enough these are all guys sitting behind or next to Nixon at a baseball game in 1969. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66586 13 hours ago 44 minutes ago, lxchilton said: I don't think we are disagreeing with one another--I am just saying that if someone said "marcelled" then Cooper's hair was probably just wavy à la young Nixon. Gregory is the one who said "marcelled" and he was older, correct? Ultimately I don't want people thinking that someone with wildy wavy hair has to be Cooper or some other misguided thing. Gregory said "wavy, marceled"... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #66587 13 hours ago 50 minutes ago, lxchilton said: Examples of waviness--funnily enough these are all guys sitting behind or next to Nixon at a baseball game in 1969. yet Tina said he had no wave or curl or kink.... go figure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #66588 13 hours ago 13 hours ago, monk71 said: Even Ryan chimed in once: Yes, he has a good resemblance other than what Flyjack pointed out. But lots of people have good resemblances to what we might think Cooper looked like. His complete lack of aviation or parachuting experience is a killer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #66589 13 hours ago 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: The packing card said it had a 24' Steinthal canopy.. We still can't know for certain that this packing card came from Cooper's pack. It's a reasonable deduction, but there is no proof to it. Both Hayden and Cossey thought it contained a 28 footer. That both of them said this calls into question the provenance of that second packing card being from the pack Cooper used. Again, I still think it more likely than not that this card came from Cooper's pack, but I don't think we should give it full faith and credit as coming from Cooper's pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66590 13 hours ago 10 minutes ago, olemisscub said: We still can't know for certain that this packing card came from Cooper's pack. It's a reasonable deduction, but there is no proof to it. Both Hayden and Cossey thought it contained a 28 footer. That both of them said this calls into question the provenance of that second packing card being from the pack Cooper used. Again, I still think it more likely than not that this card came from Cooper's pack, but I don't think we should give it full faith and credit as coming from Cooper's pack. C'mon ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66591 13 hours ago 24 minutes ago, olemisscub said: yet Tina said he had no wave or curl or kink.... go figure. Tina also said she didn't look at his face,, but described his face... Witness recall isn't perfect... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olemisscub 582 #66592 13 hours ago 1 minute ago, FLYJACK said: C'mon ... Do you have an explanation as to why both Hayden and Cossey said it was a 28 foot canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66593 13 hours ago 2 minutes ago, olemisscub said: Do you have an explanation as to why both Hayden and Cossey said it was a 28 foot canopy? Only a guess.... Could be an error/typo or a conflation... don't know... That doesn't over ride the cards,, two found on the plane, both packed by Cossey May 21, 1971,,, One matched Hayden's rig left behind.. The other card has to be for the rig Cooper used.. there is no way around it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66594 12 hours ago 1 hour ago, olemisscub said: yet Tina said he had no wave or curl or kink.... go figure. "go figure" should be the NORJAK subtitle. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66595 12 hours ago 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: Gregory said "wavy, marceled"... This is true--a man who wanted us to have it all, I guess. I'll err on the side of Don Draper rather than F. Scott Fitzgerald still. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66596 12 hours ago 6 minutes ago, lxchilton said: This is true--a man who wanted us to have it all, I guess. I'll err on the side of Don Draper rather than F. Scott Fitzgerald still. Not really sure why you'd want to err at all.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lxchilton 10 #66597 12 hours ago 25 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: Not really sure why you'd want to err at all.. Odd that a phrase can have a definition that is somewhat at odds with that of the central word by itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 785 #66598 11 hours ago 8 minutes ago, lxchilton said: Odd that a phrase can have a definition that is somewhat at odds with that of the central word by itself. I know what the phrase means,,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites