DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 785]

1 minute ago, Kamkisky said:

South is a direction. It’s the direction he wanted to go based on every statement he made (that’s the totality of the evidence…as in all of it). The path, used as a substitute for airway, was not discussed with him and he didn’t bring it up. That’s stuff ATC and the pilots and NWA kicked around without Cooper’s knowledge. It’s totally irrelevant to anything he said or did, he never knew about it. We are trying to find out Cooper’s thoughts and actions, not the pilots.
 

The ‘Cooper knew they could only take V23’ bit is a strawman. That’s not the argument being made. This many pages in that should be clear by now. 

Good grief...  what a disaster.

[Kamkisky 30]

10 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Good grief...  what a disaster.

What does H want the money for? 

[FLYJACK 785]

11 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

What does H want the money for? 

Who cares..  my posts are boring.. 

You guys discuss your crazy stuff yourselves...  not interested.

[lxchilton 10]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Who cares..  my posts are boring.. 

You guys discuss your crazy stuff yourselves...  not interested.

I mean that part of this is interesting for sure--saying other people/ideas/thoughts are *insert pejorative here* is not. 

I'd be super interested in your take on this if there was more explanation of the reasoning behind Cooper's actions, but I'm not seeing anything other than the same kinds of educated ideas based on limited facts and suppositions. Which is fine, but then you vilify others as they attempt to do the same thing.

Thought experiments are as important in this case as they were to relativity.

[georger 271]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Who cares..  my posts are boring..

*Regarding the fact that the money itself was remarkably well preserved, Professor PALMER advised that sand is sterile, and in nature, is probably the best preservative of any soil. (One reason is the exposure of beach sand to UV).

This could also be the reason that the rubber bands were still in place around the money, although they were badly deteriorated. This would also lend credence to the fact that the money had been deposited in sand, the major portion of time since it was lost.

The money would have lasted no more than a year in nature unless protected.

Palmer added that fragments of the money could have been washed anywhere down stream in the Columbia, but he doubted that any additional money found would be as well preserved unless it had been deposited in an upper layer of sand.

....................................................................................................................

Is beach sand sterile -

No, beach sand is not sterile; it contains a vast number of microorganisms, including various types of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites. Many of these microbes can be pathogenic to humans and can cause infections or illnesses through contact, particularly if you have cuts or other breaks in your skin, or if ingested. 

Why beach sand isn't sterile:

Beach sand serves as a natural habitat for a diverse range of microbes that thrive in the near-marine environment. Contaminants such as fecal bacteria from animal and human waste can reach the sand via water or direct spread. The sand itself can act as a reservoir, supporting the persistence and even multiplication of certain microbes, even when water quality tests are clean. 

The microbial story of the Cooper money was never explored. Microbial tests have routinely been done in the public areas of the Columbia  for decades, testing for microbial blooms, hazardous materials, and agricultural contamination. Public records and yearly test results are  available. The Cooper money microbial profile fits somewhere in yearly microbial water data, ... its another clock that has not been consulted. The FBI Lab probably lacked the resources and the request to look for a comparison in order to date the Ingram find. 

 

Edited September 27 by georger

[dudeman17 376]

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Liar...

 

You call me a liar but the post you cite supports my case not yours. "Holds water" means it is feasible, not that I believe it to be true.

 

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

YOU SAID SOUTH IS A PATH...

 

Yes I did. For the theory to work he does not need a specific path to a specific spot. He just needs the direction that gets him to a general area. South is all the path he needs.

 

13 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

NORJAK DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE A DESIGNATED ROUTE

 

You clearly have no idea how aviation works. Airliners take designated routes so that they do not crash and die. They were taking a low altitude flight in limited visibility over varying terrain at a time when they might expect there to be other air traffic. They would not and did not abandon this survival protocol for a hijacker.

 

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I BELIEVE THAT LETTER IS FROM COOPER BUT DON'T SEE HOW IT PROVES HE HAD A COMPASS, THAT IS A STRETCH.

 

That letter twice uses a phrase that indicates more advanced military training. That does not prove a compass but makes it a high likelihood.

 

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

IT ISN'T...  THEY ARE NON-STEERABLE..

 

I had and flew a couple round reserves from that era including a 26' conical. They were steerable. I knew several people who had 26' conicals including one guy who flew it as a main. They were steerable. I'll up the bet to twenty.

 

14 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

NO, YOU DON'T HAVE IT CORRECT. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK.

 

I think I do. The old Fly would have posted the document to clarify it one way or the other. The current Fly is just being a dick. To everybody.

 

12 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I am tired of insults and stupid ideas from ignorant people...

 

In one short sentence you confirm your hypocrisy.

 

-----------------

 

I'll ask again - What happened to you? You have always been a thorough and detailed researcher. But you used to be objective and open minded. Now you're just rude, short-sighted, dismissive, and a complete jerk to everybody. No, you are not a genius while everyone else is a moron. I dunno, maybe having a rock star call your house does something to your head.

[FLYJACK 785]

21 hours ago, lxchilton said:

I mean that part of this is interesting for sure--saying other people/ideas/thoughts are *insert pejorative here* is not. 

I'd be super interested in your take on this if there was more explanation of the reasoning behind Cooper's actions, but I'm not seeing anything other than the same kinds of educated ideas based on limited facts and suppositions. Which is fine, but then you vilify others as they attempt to do the same thing.

Thought experiments are as important in this case as they were to relativity.

Wrong, false equivalency, the evidence is clear here,, the idea that Cooper gave no path or confirmed it because the plane could only take V23 to target his jump based on the lights of Battle Ground is absurd.. The fact is there were many paths the plane could take designated airways or not... there was one between V27 and v23 which avoided populated areas... and they did NOT have to take a designated airway..

You guys are engaged in a delusion...  and criticize me with these idiotic claims like I misused the term path...  boring,, right the facts are boring... I protest too much,, right the facts are irrelevant...

Kamkisky's theory isn't new, it is has been around forever... and it is busted by the facts. If you guys want to hang on to this nonsense and ignore the facts, go ahead. I am not participating in your collective fantasy.

[FLYJACK 785]

20 hours ago, georger said:

*Regarding the fact that the money itself was remarkably well preserved, Professor PALMER advised that sand is sterile, and in nature, is probably the best preservative of any soil. (One reason is the exposure of beach sand to UV).

This could also be the reason that the rubber bands were still in place around the money, although they were badly deteriorated. This would also lend credence to the fact that the money had been deposited in sand, the major portion of time since it was lost.

The money would have lasted no more than a year in nature unless protected.

Palmer added that fragments of the money could have been washed anywhere down stream in the Columbia, but he doubted that any additional money found would be as well preserved unless it had been deposited in an upper layer of sand.

....................................................................................................................

Is beach sand sterile -

No, beach sand is not sterile; it contains a vast number of microorganisms, including various types of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites. Many of these microbes can be pathogenic to humans and can cause infections or illnesses through contact, particularly if you have cuts or other breaks in your skin, or if ingested. 

Why beach sand isn't sterile:

Beach sand serves as a natural habitat for a diverse range of microbes that thrive in the near-marine environment. Contaminants such as fecal bacteria from animal and human waste can reach the sand via water or direct spread. The sand itself can act as a reservoir, supporting the persistence and even multiplication of certain microbes, even when water quality tests are clean. 

The microbial story of the Cooper money was never explored. Microbial tests have routinely been done in the public areas of the Columbia  for decades, testing for microbial blooms, hazardous materials, and agricultural contamination. Public records and yearly test results are  available. The Cooper money microbial profile fits somewhere in yearly microbial water data, ... its another clock that has not been consulted. The FBI Lab probably lacked the resources and the request to look for a comparison in order to date the Ingram find. 

 

I discovered that the money itself is covered with bacteria.... the sand is therefore irrelevent.

Those holes may have been caused by bacteria already present on the money..

But there is no explanation for the uniform erosion pattern around the outer portion of the bills,, Tom believed intuitively it was in situ but did not have an explanation.. 

The uniform rounding pattern is consistent with a tumbling/rolling action caused by abrasion..  all the buried money images I have seen show a random erosion pattern.

Palmer was geologist and believed the erosion was form tumbling/rolling... Tom's experiment showed the money could not have travelled a long distance..

There are no frags from the outer erosion area...

My hypothesis is that the money as one bundle went into the Columbia within a few miles of TBAR perhaps Frenchman's Bar... sank and rolled/tumbled along the bottom causing the uniform erosion pattern. It was pushed by the current to its spot when the water level was above it.. this suggests the money arrived closer to the find..

There needs to be an experiment to replicate the tumbling/abrasion of a bundle...

 

 

[FLYJACK 785]

13 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

 

You call me a liar but the post you cite supports my case not yours. "Holds water" means it is feasible, not that I believe it to be true.

 

 

Yes I did. For the theory to work he does not need a specific path to a specific spot. He just needs the direction that gets him to a general area. South is all the path he needs.

 

 

You clearly have no idea how aviation works. Airliners take designated routes so that they do not crash and die. They were taking a low altitude flight in limited visibility over varying terrain at a time when they might expect there to be other air traffic. They would not and did not abandon this survival protocol for a hijacker.

 

 

That letter twice uses a phrase that indicates more advanced military training. That does not prove a compass but makes it a high likelihood.

 

 

I had and flew a couple round reserves from that era including a 26' conical. They were steerable. I knew several people who had 26' conicals including one guy who flew it as a main. They were steerable. I'll up the bet to twenty.

 

 

I think I do. The old Fly would have posted the document to clarify it one way or the other. The current Fly is just being a dick. To everybody.

 

 

In one short sentence you confirm your hypocrisy.

 

-----------------

 

I'll ask again - What happened to you? You have always been a thorough and detailed researcher. But you used to be objective and open minded. Now you're just rude, short-sighted, dismissive, and a complete jerk to everybody. No, you are not a genius while everyone else is a moron. I dunno, maybe having a rock star call your house does something to your head.

You did lie,, you said south was a path supported Kamkinsky.. claimed you didn't, then you tried to ridicule me for using the term path.. 

SOUTH IS NOT A PATH,, there are many many paths the plane could have taken... several are designated airways but they DID NOT have to take an airway..  So, this idea that Cooper knew the plane had to take V23 is absurd and abuse of reality.

You even try to belittle me for using a term accurately.... 

You got the military cards wrong... you claim Hayden's chutes were steerable, they weren't.. you knew military had purpose freefall rigs and said nothing...  You attack me for claiming the fact that freefall rigs open harder and land harder increasing injury,, I have stats to back it up..

You have a very low level case knowledge..

 

Then you are obsessed with attacking me personally....  when you are consistently wrong.

 

You personally belittle me claiming I have no idea how airliners work re airways,,  No, you have no idea what happened in this case... This was an emergency situation and NORJAK could have taken any path they wanted, An designated airway or not.. So, you are belittling me from a position of ignorance... this is all you do.. 

 

Bailout rigs of that era were rarely steerable and apparently marked.. The FBI files are full of documentation declaring both of Hayden's rigs as non-steerable.. So, again you are wrong.. you apply your own experience which is not relevant.

 

So, you really have poor case knowledge but claim to know things that aren't true... your analysis is terrible and conclusions a disaster.. unwinding your bad ideas takes work and I am not interested. Here is an idea, go read the files..

In the past I would clarify these things but you crossed the line a while back insulting and disrespecting me. I just don't want to help you with anything.. do your own homework or get somebody else...

 

You are a waste of time... you are completely irrelevant and all you do is attack me personally...   I am done with that crap...  that goes for everyone.

 

I am done with being ridiculed by ignorant people...

 

My research and case knowledge is levels above you guys.. Ryan is close but even he doesn't have some of the stuff I have..

Too bad, you al lose..

This black pen line is a "path".. it happens to mostly follow V23... but NORJAK did have to use designated airways though there is V27 down the coast and V165 in between,, the best airway avoiding populated areas. 

The idea that Cooper knew V23 had to be taken is literally insane. V23 was arguably the worst going over populated areas...  

 

Edited September 27 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

Ryan, this is not exactly right..

Also, just wanted to point out that there isn’t $200 missing. The FBI believed it to be $5800, but testing in the 2010’s on some of the fragments that Brian Ingram has showed the missing 10 serial numbers. So it was $6000. No money was missing (unless this was originally a $10,000 bundle).

The FBI lab estimated $5800...  they did not count all bills or record all SN's, some were frags and stuck together...

So, there was never 290 bill SN#s fully identified. Many were partial SN's. These are listed in the files.

Later, PCGS identified 35 serial numbers...  these were not new bills but identified serial numbers from fragments...  the original $5800 was an estimate.

It was originally 3 packets of 100 = $6000...  some were eroded on the top of one packet..

Many people thought that the 35 newly identified bills were added to the 5800 making the total over 6000 but that wasn't true..  they just completed 35 partial SN's that the FBI had not completed..

Also, since the FBI has the micro list with bills in physical order, they can use it for all the 300 SN's in the TBAR packets... this is of course different from physically identifying the SN's from the physical bills..

One thing I wish we had was the original bill order from the micro.. the list we have has been alpha numerically sorted.. 

Edited September 27 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

Just read that suspect sketches are not admissible in court and considered hearsay..

The real goal of a sketch is to elicit tips...

[georger 271]

5 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I discovered that the money itself is covered with bacteria.... the sand is therefore irrelevent.

Those holes may have been caused by bacteria already present on the money..

But there is no explanation for the uniform erosion pattern around the outer portion of the bills,, Tom believed intuitively it was in situ but did not have an explanation.. 

The uniform rounding pattern is consistent with a tumbling/rolling action caused by abrasion..  all the buried money images I have seen show a random erosion pattern.

Palmer was geologist and believed the erosion was form tumbling/rolling... Tom's experiment showed the money could not have travelled a long distance..

There are no frags from the outer erosion area...

My hypothesis is that the money as one bundle went into the Columbia within a few miles of TBAR perhaps Frenchman's Bar... sank and rolled/tumbled along the bottom causing the uniform erosion pattern. It was pushed by the current to its spot when the water level was above it.. this suggests the money arrived closer to the find..

There needs to be an experiment to replicate the tumbling/abrasion of a bundle...

 

 

I discovered that the money itself is covered with bacteria.... the sand is therefore irrelevent.

Really?  That will come as news to the scientific community.

What pickup truck did yous get you education in?

Any advice on Tylenol and vaccines ?

I think you and Palmer and Fred Mopar are about the only humans on Earth that actually claim the money got its shape by rolling on the bottom of a river! Are all candy bars made by tumbling them in a river? ? 

You have crossed the line to humor and insanity!

Edited September 27 by georger

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, georger said:

I discovered that the money itself is covered with bacteria.... the sand is therefore irrelevent.

Really?  That will come as news to the scientific community.

What pickup truck did yous get you education in?

Any advice on Tylenol and vaccines ?

I think you and Palmer and Fred Mopar are about the only humans on Earth that actually claim the money got its shape by rolling on the bottom of a river! Are all candy bars made by tumbling them in a river? ? 

You have crossed the line to humor and insanity!

It may be a surprise to you but circulated money is filthy... look it up yourself.

I dare you.. but that requires actual research.. you are too lazy.

Your passive aggressiveness is wearing thin.

Keep it up... 

Everyone will pay for it..

Edited September 27 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

It may be a surprise to you but circulated money is filthy... look it up yourself.

I dare you.. but that requires actual research.. you are too lazy.

Your passive aggressiveness is wearing thin.

Keep it up... 

Everyone will pay for it..

 

I think .... very clearly, your limitations have now been exposed. Your knee-jerk logic is not logic. Your scientific background is obviously lacking. ........................ all of that just for starters.Your analysis of the money issue in the Cooper case is not just incomplete but wrong, juvenile and stupid. 

You seem to be a person with real personal issue -

Edited September 28 by georger

[FLYJACK 785]

3 minutes ago, georger said:

 

I think .... very clearly, your limitations have now been exposed. Your knee-jerk logic is not logic. Your scientific background is obviously lacking. ........................ all of that just for starters.Your analysis of the money issue in the Cooper case is not just incomplete but wrong, juvenile and stupid. 

You seem to be a person with real personal issue -

Keep going...

You are a cancer for this case..

You have nothing to add so to feign relevancy you criticize,,, with personal crap and misinformation.. 

FAFO

Edited September 28 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Keep going...

Or what!?  Are you threatening me or the forum now ?

Edited September 28 by georger

[FLYJACK 785]

9 minutes ago, georger said:

Or what!?  Are you threatening me or the forum now ?

You'll see.. or maybe you won't

It takes about 2 seconds on google to know circulated currency is thoroughly contaminated with bacteria..

You are so lazy, so incompetent that you can't even take 2 seconds to check before you claim it false...

Nobody ever in this case has made so many completely false claims.. 

It is as if your entire purpose is to stop the advancement of the case...

Edited September 28 by FLYJACK

[georger 271]

2 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You'll see..

It takes about 2 seconds on google to know circulated currency is thoroughly contaminated with bacteria..

You are so lazy, so incompetent that you can't even take 2 seconds to check before you claim it false...

Nobody ever in this case has made so many completely false claims.. 

It is as if your entire purpose is to stop the advancement of the case...

Crazy. Human microbes did not decompose the Cooper money!  This is crazy. This isnt worth responding to - - - - - this is stupid. Play with yourself.

Edited September 28 by georger

[FLYJACK 785]

3 minutes ago, georger said:

Crazy. Human microbes did not decompose the Cooper money!  This is crazy. This isnt worth responding to - - - - - this is stupid. Play with yourself.

Wrong....  not just human...  there are many many different microbes on currency including ones that can eat currency...

Don't worry, you are irrelevant, the case is advancing despite your games..

 

[olemisscub 582]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Ryan, this is not exactly right..

Also, just wanted to point out that there isn’t $200 missing. The FBI believed it to be $5800, but testing in the 2010’s on some of the fragments that Brian Ingram has showed the missing 10 serial numbers. So it was $6000. No money was missing (unless this was originally a $10,000 bundle).

The FBI lab estimated $5800...  they did not count all bills or record all SN's, some were frags and stuck together...

So, there was never 290 bill SN#s fully identified. Many were partial SN's. These are listed in the files.

Later, PCGS identified 35 serial numbers...  these were not new bills but identified serial numbers from fragments...  the original $5800 was an estimate.

It was originally 3 packets of 100 = $6000...  some were eroded on the top of one packet..

Many people thought that the 35 newly identified bills were added to the 5800 making the total over 6000 but that wasn't true..  they just completed 35 partial SN's that the FBI had not completed..

Also, since the FBI has the micro list with bills in physical order, they can use it for all the 300 SN's in the TBAR packets... this is of course different from physically identifying the SN's from the physical bills..

One thing I wish we had was the original bill order from the micro.. the list we have has been alpha numerically sorted.. 

So we really don’t know how many bills were there? Is that what you’re saying?

[FLYJACK 785]

5 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

So we really don’t know how many bills were there? Is that what you’re saying?

Not exactly,, the FBI estimated 5800 originally but did not have all those as full SN's.. the list from the actual money is in the files...  some full, some partial/incomplete some missing. 

One packet was eroded on the top so short a few bills..  

PCGS completed 35 incomplete or missing serial numbers by comparing frags to the FBI list..  not new bills found per se above the 5800 estimate..

It is safe to claim there were 3 packets of 100 with some missing/eroded from the top of one packet...  the FBI has the original bill list and can identify all the serial numbers from those specific packets in order.. we don't have that list, we have the re-sorted list..

PCGS didn't find new bills, they completed unidentified or partial serial numbers..

[olemisscub 582]

13 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Not exactly,, the FBI estimated 5800 originally but did not have all those as full SN's.. the list from the actual money is in the files...  some full, some partial/incomplete some missing. 

One packet was eroded on the top so short a few bills..  

PCGS completed 35 incomplete or missing serial numbers by comparing frags to the FBI list..  not new bills found per se above the 5800 estimate..

It is safe to claim there were 3 packets of 100 with some missing/eroded from the top of one packet...  the FBI has the original bill list and can identify all the serial numbers from those specific packets in order.. we don't have that list, we have the re-sorted list..

PCGS didn't find new bills, they completed unidentified or partial serial numbers..

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[georger 271]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Wrong....  not just human...  there are many many different microbes on currency including ones that can eat currency...

Don't worry, you are irrelevant, the case is advancing despite your games..

 

 Too complicated and open ended to be useful.

 

Edited September 28 by georger

[georger 271]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

ok ... your featured speaker at Coopercopn25 should be Flyjack. Give him a week to explain 'path'. 

Edited September 28 by georger

[lxchilton 10]

On 9/27/2025 at 11:56 AM, FLYJACK said:

Wrong, false equivalency, the evidence is clear here,, the idea that Cooper gave no path or confirmed it because the plane could only take V23 to target his jump based on the lights of Battle Ground is absurd.. The fact is there were many paths the plane could take designated airways or not... there was one between V27 and v23 which avoided populated areas... and they did NOT have to take a designated airway..

You guys are engaged in a delusion...  and criticize me with these idiotic claims like I misused the term path...  boring,, right the facts are boring... I protest too much,, right the facts are irrelevant...

Kamkisky's theory isn't new, it is has been around forever... and it is busted by the facts. If you guys want to hang on to this nonsense and ignore the facts, go ahead. I am not participating in your collective fantasy.

You are telling people they are misusing the word path, I believe. 

What is "busting" the theory is that you think it's "absurd." That's not a fact. 

Anyway, is it not possible that Cooper was lacking enough in knowledge regarding the operation of a plane along commercial flight paths that he just made assumptions that were not true and ended up working out for him?

You keep saying that a thought along those lines is absurd/stupid/disproven by facts/etc. but I see nothing to support that other than that you don't agree with it.

If all your arguments about not knowing Cooper's thoughts are to hold water you can't throw a hypothesis out of the window because you think you know his mind better. 

As for theories being around a long time, I'm not going to argue that, but I will argue that this theory holds at least as much water as many others.

Enjoy your personal fantasy!