DB Cooper

[FLYJACK 785]

3 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

This is documented?

V187 takes the plane to Astoria, still the coast. It's definitely more southwest. It ain't south though, and any layman with a map could tell you it's not on the way to Reno. 

 

It goes to V27 and then down the coast,, exactly what the pilots were discussing.. so it IS legit path..

Does anybody actually read the files or is it just me..

Southwest then South...  

 

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

19 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

This is documented?

V187 takes the plane to Astoria, still the coast. It's definitely more southwest. It ain't south though, and any layman with a map could tell you it's not on the way to Reno. 

 

Maybe R99 can weigh in here but couldn’t a basic compass tell him if they were taking V23 or not? If he knew that there was only one other option then it shouldn’t be hard to figure. V27 is the left red line at 230 degrees, and the right line is V23 at 178 degrees. When you take off southbound from seatac you're heading is 160 degrees. So 178 is a very slight turn, 230 is sharper.

[Kamkisky 30]

5 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Maybe R99 can weigh in here but couldn’t a basic compass tell him if they were taking V23 or not? If he knew that there was only one other option then it shouldn’t be hard to figure. V27 is the left red line at 230 degrees, and the right line is V23 at 178 degrees. When you take off southbound from seatac you're heading is 160 degrees. So 178 is a very slight turn, 230 is sharper.

Thanks.

I don't know enough to understand "going J-5" or the rest of the text from the files Fly posted. It doesn't say v187 or v27 or v23. I'll await someone more knowledgeable to interpret what's being said here. 

What I do know is this is those things are not being said by Cooper. It's being said by people who didn't understand the plan was to jump out the back of the jet. I also know Cooper did not say anything about "put us southerly out over the, somewhat along the coast." He said no to coastal airports. He said yes to Reno. I also know Astoria is not on the way to Reno. 

 

Edited August 22 by Kamkisky

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

Cliff is actually very well versed on NORJAK. He took part in the Washington State Historical Museum Cooper exhibit and multiple Cooper Cons. I have had the pleasure of speaking with him at both the CC’s he attended. He has discussed the case with Cooperites and industry insiders alike. Even people involved with SAGE asking what radars would of been involved in tracking 305. He has an intellectual curiosity about the case, make no mistake. Another excerpt from his CooperCon 21 panel discussion. Cliff: “I talked to a lady who I work with at the museum of flight who was a northwest orient stewardess and she wasn’t on this flight, didn’t really know the pilot but in her talking to other stewardesses about this, she said the pilot made that kind of maneuver because he didn’t want the airplane blowing up over the city and so that’s why he avoided the airport and avoided the downtown (Portland metro) area as that black line shows (pointing at the FBI/Air Force map on stage behind him).” This sounds like a much more logical option if you wanted to avoid major cities then flying a route you’ve probably never flown before, that’s a 129 statue miles longer, requires more reserve fuel (already flying dirty), loosing a degree of freedom incase of an emergency in a very sketchy and foreign flight config. 

Edited August 22 by Nicholas Broughton

[Robert99 64]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Maybe R99 can weigh in here but couldn’t a basic compass tell him if they were taking V23 or not? If he knew that there was only one other option then it shouldn’t be hard to figure. V27 is the left red line at 230 degrees, and the right line is V23 at 178 degrees. When you take off southbound from seatac you're heading is 160 degrees. So 178 is a very slight turn, 230 is sharper.

Any 12-year-old Boy Scout in Washington state, and I was one a long time ago, could easily determine if the airliner was headed south.  

If I had my compass with me, it would just a matter of taking a look at it.  Even if I didn't have my compass, if I could see a few stars, I could figure out what was south in just a few seconds.

Those were just some of the basic skills that Boy Scouts were taught and tested on in my time.

[Nicholas Broughton 90]

11 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Any 12-year-old Boy Scout in Washington state, and I was one a long time ago, could easily determine if the airliner was headed south.  

If I had my compass with me, it would just a matter of taking a look at it.  Even if I didn't have my compass, if I could see a few stars, I could figure out what was south in just a few seconds.

Those were just some of the basic skills that Boy Scouts were taught and tested on in my time.

Thanks. Well this seems to conflict with Fly’s declaration that Cooper would not have known where he was. Since we don’t know who he was…. he could of been a Boy Scout!

Edited August 22 by Nicholas Broughton

[Robert99 64]

1 hour ago, Kamkisky said:

Thanks.

I don't know enough to understand "going J-5" or the rest of the text from the files Fly posted. It doesn't say v187 or v27 or v23. I'll await someone more knowledgeable to interpret what's being said here. 

What I do know is this is those things are not being said by Cooper. It's being said by people who didn't understand the plan was to jump out the back of the jet. I also know Cooper did not say anything about "put us southerly out over the, somewhat along the coast." He said no to coastal airports. He said yes to Reno. I also know Astoria is not on the way to Reno. 

 

I don't know where FlyJack got this "going J-5" quotation but it may have been in reference to the J-5 High Altitude IFR route that goes to the southeast from Seattle.

Jet High Altitude IFR routes are used above Flight Level 180 (18,000 feet ASL in a standard atmosphere).  But the reference may have just been that the crew was just discussing things well knowing that they were going to be limited to 10,000 feet ASL.

[Robert99 64]

3 minutes ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Thanks. Well this seems to conflict with Fly’s declaration that Cooper would not have known where he was. Since we don’t know who he was…. he could of been a Boy Scout!

Exactly.

[FLYJACK 785]

6 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Thanks. Well this seems to conflict with Fly’s declaration that Cooper would not have known where he was. Since we don’t know who he was…. he could of been a Boy Scout!

You guys are so desperate,,, Cooper was a Boy Scout? I guess we'll find out Skip was a Boy Scout now.. Did he get his hijacking badge as well...

Tina didn't see any compass and the lights were out..

Why are you guys fighting the facts..

It isn't a big deal.. Cooper did not know the route the plane was going take,, simple stuff. He never gave any path instructions.. The plane didn't even have to take a Vector.. The coastal route "V27" was seriously discussed and it is South and about 65 miles West of V23 which was 10 miles wide itself..

It is self evident that IF Cooper had a targeted LZ he would have given instructions to ensure he could hit that target,,, 

To argue that Cooper didn't indicate a path because there was only one path that could be taken is literally insane.

[FLYJACK 785]

7 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Exactly.

BS... ZERO evidence he had a compass,, even if he did it wouldn't make a difference.

The plane actually flew approximately..  204 degrees then about 153 degrees..

Edited August 22 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 785]

8 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

Cliff is actually very well versed on NORJAK. He took part in the Washington State Historical Museum Cooper exhibit and multiple Cooper Cons. I have had the pleasure of speaking with him at both the CC’s he attended. He has discussed the case with Cooperites and industry insiders alike. Even people involved with SAGE asking what radars would of been involved in tracking 305. He has an intellectual curiosity about the case, make no mistake. Another excerpt from his CooperCon 21 panel discussion. Cliff: “I talked to a lady who I work with at the museum of flight who was a northwest orient stewardess and she wasn’t on this flight, didn’t really know the pilot but in her talking to other stewardesses about this, she said the pilot made that kind of maneuver because he didn’t want the airplane blowing up over the city and so that’s why he avoided the airport and avoided the downtown (Portland metro) area as that black line shows (pointing at the FBI/Air Force map on stage behind him).” This sounds like a much more logical option if you wanted to avoid major cities then flying a route you’ve probably never flown before, that’s a 129 statue miles longer, requires more reserve fuel (already flying dirty), loosing a degree of freedom incase of an emergency in a very sketchy and foreign flight config. 

So what,, you do understand the appeal to authority fallacy....

Nothing against Cliff but they seriously discussed the coastal route and that means it was a legit option. To claim there was only one option is just false. To use Cliff's opinion as fact is engaging in a logical fallacy.

The coastal route is about 60-65 miles West and a better option to avoid populated areas..

Edited August 22 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 582]

People like to give Cooper more credit than he deserves. 

It wouldn’t have hurt his escape one bit to have specified a flight path. As I’ve said, Cooper knew the plane’s location was obviously being tracked, so it was no disadvantage to just go ahead and specify a flight path. 

I see three options, with the first being the most likely IMO and last being very unlikely 

1) He assumed they’d be flying south and didn’t want to spend too long on the plane after takeoff. Once he was ready and confident, he goes down the stairs and sees a Goldilocks area like Mac: not too far from civilization but also not too close. Then he jumps. If he wasn’t a complete fool he’d have had a compass in his pocket or in his bag. 

2) He had specific coordinates or a destination with him that he originally planned to give to the pilots only AFTER takeoff. Heady, McCoy, Cini, and Hahneman did this. But something spooks him and he just says “fuck it” and decides to jump as soon as he felt reasonably safe doing so.

3) He was the accomplice and something happened to the original Cooper (think Johnston being arrested the night before) and he just decides to do it himself before the original Cooper squealed on the plan and ratted him out. In this scenario Cooper seems to only know about the half the plan, which is why he is essentially winging everything after he gets the money.
 

[Kamkisky 30]

Overall this is fairly simple. Fly is right, they did consider the coast (although I have yet to see them talking v27 or v187). To Fly that means that route was legit. Here’s where the disagreement comes in, because the cockpit considered it to Fly that means Cooper didn’t have a preferred “path” and thus didn’t have a “LZ” targeted and thus was winging it and jumped at random.  

My position is you cannot determine what Cooper wanted or planned based on what the cockpit discussed. To understand Cooper’s plan you have to look at what Cooper discussed and did. Only south. Said no to coastal airports. Is wearing a parachute at take off. Goes A to B (KISS principle). Out waits the dark forest. Jumps the first metro lights, lands in a prime *region* (not an exact LZ) close to where he started. Nothing the cockpit discussed changes any of that.

The cockpit could have discussed going due east and then south flying the backside of the mountains over desert to get to Reno (the actual least populated route)…and that’d have the same impact on Cooper’s plan, none. They could have talked about flying to the moon, same impact.

Cooper had his desired state of affairs, he communicated those. Ultimately he got them. The machinations of GC and the cockpit were just that. Those machinations are what was in their heads…not what was in Cooper’s. I care about understanding Cooper’s mindset and plan, not Rat’s or GC’s. That’s why I focus on Cooper’s words and actions not the cockpit conversations.  

Edited August 22 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 785]

11 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

Overall this is fairly simple. Fly is right, they did consider the coast (although I have yet to see them talking v27 or v187). To Fly that means that route was legit. Here’s where the disagreement comes in, because the cockpit considered it to Fly that means Cooper didn’t have a preferred “path” and thus didn’t have a “LZ” targeted and thus was winging it and jumped at random.  

My position is you cannot determine what Cooper wanted or planned based on what the cockpit discussed. To understand Cooper’s plan you have to look at what Cooper discussed and did. Only south. Said no to coastal airports. Is wearing a parachute at take off. Goes A to B (KISS principle). Out waits the dark forest. Jumps the first metro lands, lands in a prime *region* (not an exact LZ) close to where he started. Nothing the cockpit discussed changes any of that.

The cockpit could have discussed going due east and then south flying the backside of the mountains over desert to get to Reno (the actual least populated route)…and that’d have the same impact on Cooper’s plan, none. They could have talked about flying to the moon, same impact.

Cooper had his desired state of affairs, he communicated those. Ultimately he got them. The machinations of GC and the cockpit were just that. Those machinations are what was in their heads…not what was in Cooper’s. I care about understanding Cooper’s mindset and plan, not Rat’s or GC’s. That’s why I focus on Cooper’s words and actions not the cockpit conversations.  

You conflate pre and post Reno,,,

Pre Reno,, he had an LZ he was going to give directions to the crew inflight.. somewhere further South probably South of the US border.

Post Reno,, Cooper decides he doesn't want to be on the plane when it lands in Reno,, Decides to jump ASAP... with no predetermined LZ..

 

Cooper's LZ was ad hoc and that made the case harder to solve.

[FLYJACK 785]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

People like to give Cooper more credit than he deserves. 

It wouldn’t have hurt his escape one bit to have specified a flight path. As I’ve said, Cooper knew the plane’s location was obviously being tracked, so it was no disadvantage to just go ahead and specify a flight path. 

I see three options, with the first being the most likely IMO and last being very unlikely 

1) He assumed they’d be flying south and didn’t want to spend too long on the plane after takeoff. Once he was ready and confident, he goes down the stairs and sees a Goldilocks area like Mac: not too far from civilization but also not too close. Then he jumps. If he wasn’t a complete fool he’d have had a compass in his pocket or in his bag. 

2) He had specific coordinates or a destination with him that he originally planned to give to the pilots only AFTER takeoff. Heady, McCoy, Cini, and Hahneman did this. But something spooks him and he just says “fuck it” and decides to jump as soon as he felt reasonably safe doing so.

3) He was the accomplice and something happened to the original Cooper (think Johnston being arrested the night before) and he just decides to do it himself before the original Cooper squealed on the plan and ratted him out. In this scenario Cooper seems to only know about the half the plan, which is why he is essentially winging everything after he gets the money.
 

#2 then when Reno was in play it became #1...

[olemisscub 582]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

#2 then when Reno was in play it became #1...

I’ve always been open to your idea on that, but I’ve still never received a satisfactory answer for my main issue with the theory. If you want to jump into Mexico, why do you begin your hijack so far away? He could have just hijacked a Phoenix to Albuquerque flight or something like that. 

Hijacking that far north and then sending the plane on a fool’s errand to Mexico is precisely what you’d do if you were planning to jump early. It’s smart actually. He just brainfarted on the increased fuel consumption.

[FLYJACK 785]

43 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I’ve always been open to your idea on that, but I’ve still never received a satisfactory answer for my main issue with the theory. If you want to jump into Mexico, why do you begin your hijack so far away? He could have just hijacked a Phoenix to Albuquerque flight or something like that. 

Hijacking that far north and then sending the plane on a fool’s errand to Mexico is precisely what you’d do if you were planning to jump early. It’s smart actually. He just brainfarted on the increased fuel consumption.

My "theory" is that Cooper took a flight from the East heading West to hijack a plane to another airport..

For some reason he aborted, the flight lands/terminates in Portland.

He never leaves PDX and picks 305 in another attempt.

This is pure speculation but does fit the evidence..  So, don't attack me..

 

[lxchilton 10]

5 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

My "theory" is that Cooper took a flight from the East heading West to hijack a plane to another airport..

For some reason he aborted, the flight lands/terminates in Portland.

He never leaves PDX and picks 305 in another attempt.

This is pure speculation but does fit the evidence..  So, don't attack me..

 

This is certainly not impossible though if the original plan had also involved flying to Mexico wouldn't this be a bigger inflection point (having to take 305 in Portland) than the change to Reno in Seattle? He also seems so unfazed during the first half of his (per your theory) already completely different hijacking; he would have had to do some back of the napkin math about flight distance and all too.

[lxchilton 10]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

You conflate pre and post Reno,,,

Pre Reno,, he had an LZ he was going to give directions to the crew inflight.. somewhere further South probably South of the US border.

Post Reno,, Cooper decides he doesn't want to be on the plane when it lands in Reno,, Decides to jump ASAP... with no predetermined LZ..

 

Cooper's LZ was ad hoc and that made the case harder to solve.

If Reno was such a huge shift in terms of where he was planning on jumping why didn't he put up any kind of fight about it? He just seems to roll it into the litany of things he's just let happen even though they weren't what he asked for and those (knapsack, taking forever to fuel, d rings [maybe!]) didn't have any real impact on where he needed to be when he escaped the plane.

I'm having a hard time believing that it was such a sea change in his plan and yet he doesn't really rise to the occasion.

[FLYJACK 785]

Just now, lxchilton said:

If Reno was such a huge shift in terms of where he was planning on jumping why didn't he put up any kind of fight about it? He just seems to roll it into the litany of things he's just let happen even though they weren't what he asked for and those (knapsack, taking forever to fuel, d rings [maybe!]) didn't have any real impact on where he needed to be when he escaped the plane.

I'm having a hard time believing that it was such a sea change in his plan and yet he doesn't really rise to the occasion.

This has come up before...

I believe Cooper didn't want the plane to fly dirty all the way when he gave his initial demands to Mexico.. That explains his apparent range error.. He wanted it to fly dirty when the stairs were lowered inflight. The instructions went to Tina then the crew and got misinterpreted.. When Reno was in play he wanted stairs down on takeoff and to fly dirty from takeoff.. this gets conflated.

So, the crew said they didn't have the range to Mexico but Cooper wouldn't have understood why because he didn't intend for the plane to fly dirty all the way.. 

If PDX/Seattle was his backup attempt he wouldn't be as confident in the exact range to Mexico.. 

[Kamkisky 30]

17 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

This has come up before...

I believe Cooper didn't want the plane to fly dirty all the way when he gave his initial demands to Mexico.. That explains his apparent range error.. He wanted it to fly dirty when the stairs were lowered inflight. The instructions went to Tina then the crew and got misinterpreted.. When Reno was in play he wanted stairs down on takeoff and to fly dirty from takeoff.. this gets conflated.

So, the crew said they didn't have the range to Mexico but Cooper wouldn't have understood why because he didn't intend for the plane to fly dirty all the way.. 

If PDX/Seattle was his backup attempt he wouldn't be as confident in the exact range to Mexico.. 

If his intentions were never to skyjack in the PNW boy did he get lucky since he knew the area he didn’t intent to be in. He knows Tacoma from the air and McChord on the ground. The back of the napkin math to Mexico City is also great point.
 

Also, why take a plane flying the wrong way and conduct his business in Seattle? Why not take a flight heading south towards his destination of Mexico? If he is plane hopping looking for an opportunity, he has money in his pocket, he has the ability to pick a flight that more fits his desire to go to Mexico.

Another point I’ve made that you’ve never addressed is, if he did what you suggest and managed to get the flight distance of the 727 correct (when not dirty) why would he agree to negotiate a new destination? I get you say the game of telephone caused confusion. But that’s confusion in communications, if he knew the plane could make it to Mexico he has no incentive to change. He just says BS, this plane fully fueled can fly way father than Reno so get this thing to Mexico and no more funny stuff.  I mean, you can’t convince me a small car I know holds 12 gallons can only go 60 miles. Im not changing my plans based on someone telling we can only get 60 miles…I’d call BS. Your argument is he got gaslight and bought it hook line and sinker. 

Edited August 22 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 785]

4 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

If his intentions were never to skyjack in the PNW boy did he get lucky since he knew the area he didn’t intent to be in. He knows Tacoma from the air and McChord on the ground. The back of the napkin math to Mexico City is also great point.
 

Also, why take a plane flying the wrong way and conduct his business in Seattle? Why not take a flight heading south towards his destination of Mexico? If he is plane hopping looking for an opportunity, he has money in his pocket, he has the ability to pick a flight that more fits his desire to go to Mexico.

Another point I’ve made that you’ve never addressed is, if he did what you suggest and managed to get the flight distance of the 727 correct (when not dirty) why would he agree to negotiate a new destination? I get you say the game of telephone caused confusion. But that’s confusion in communications, if he knew the plane could make it to Mexico he has no incentive to change. He just says BS, this plane fully fueled can fly way father than Reno so get this thing to Mexico and no more funny stuff.  I mean, you can’t convince me a small car I know holds 12 gallons can only go 60 miles. Im not changing my plans based on someone telling we can only get 60 miles…I’d call BS. Your argument is he got gaslight and bought hook line and sinker. 

I really don't know, nobody knows what was going on in Cooper's head.. people are not always rational.

He had the money, was somewhat euphoric, his thinking may not have been the most rational at the time.. For whatever reason he felt jumping early was the best option.

Knowing McChord or Tacoma isn't that big a deal...  I know where they are and I am Canadian. I have flown out of Seattle once..

If Cooper was military and had been there before he would know...

[Kamkisky 30]

9 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

I really don't know, nobody knows what was going on in Cooper's head.. people are not always rational.

He had the money, was somewhat euphoric, his thinking may not have been the most rational at the time.. For whatever reason he felt jumping early was the best option.

Knowing McChord or Tacoma isn't that big a deal...  I know where they are and I am Canadian. I have flown out of Seattle once..

If Cooper was military and had been there before he would know...

He seemed as rationale as someone skyjacking a plane can be. 
 

Another point, if Cooper is H then his ultimate destination is Honduras, not Mexico. Even if he was successful he would have found himself in Northern Mexico with a 22 pound bag of American cash. He’d have to make it across all of Mexico and Guatemala to get to Honduras. Thats a serious flaw in his plan. H just skyjacked and told them to take him to Honduras, that’s at least a real and viable plan. Why the first time would he have had such a crappy unviable plan? I get improvements but the gap here isn’t improvements, it’s the gap from a moron to at least average intelligence. 

Edited August 22 by Kamkisky

[FLYJACK 785]

2 minutes ago, Kamkisky said:

He seemed as rationale as someone skyjacking a plane can be. 
 

Another point, if Cooper is H then his ultimate destination is Honduras, not Mexico. Even if he was successful he would have found himself in Northern Mexico with a 22 pound bag of American cash. He’d have to make it across all of Mexico and Guatemala to get to Honduras. Thats a serious flaw in his plan. H just skyjacked and told them to take him to Honduras, that’s at least a real and viable plan. Why the first time would he have had such a crappy unviable plan? I get improvements but the gap here isn’t improvements, it’s the gap from a moron to at least average intelligence. 

No, the plane was to refuel anywhere in Mexico. He could have jumped anywhere after that.

[Kamkisky 30]

4 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

No, the plane was to refuel anywhere in Mexico. He could have jumped anywhere after that.

So landing in Mexico to refuel didn’t scare him. Landing in Seattle to get cash and refuel didn’t scare him. Landing in Reno to refill freaked him out and he changed plans. I don’t know Fly…it’s a lot.